A Feat for Multiclassed Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Feat for Multiclassed Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stuntman
06-18-04, 01:29 AM The current multiclass system has some flaws. The biggest flaws is the fact that multiclass spellcasters really lose out. Not only that, other non-spellcasting class features are also lost, such as the rogue's sneak attack ability. The 3.5 core rules uses various prestige classes in order to help out multiclass characters. I propose using a feat to help out multiclass characters, especially those that keep two classes within one level of the other in order to avoid XP penalties.

Here is the feat:

Improved Class Level [General]
You improved the class features of one of your classes.

Prerequisite:
Must have more than one base class.

Benefit:
When you take this feat, choose one of your base (non-prestige) classes. You gain class features for that class except for hit points, BAB, saves, and skill points as if you are one level higher for that class. Basically, the effective class level for spell casting and abilities listed in the special column increases by one.

Special:
You can take this feat multiple times. Its effect stack if you choose the same class twice. However, the effective class levels for any one class may not exceed the total number of core (non-prestige) class levels for the character. You may only take this feat as one of the feats you gain by advancing a level. You may not take this feat as the feat that is granted by a class. For example, you cannot take this feat as one of the rogue's special abilities even though the rogue can take a feat as one of the special abilities. You also cannot choose a class in which you are no longer allowed to advance in.

Basically what this feat allows is for a multiclass to bump up the effective level of one of the classes by one at the expense of a feat. For example, a fighter 1/wizard 1 advances a level. At level 3, he gain a feat. He chooses to go up a level in fighter and takes Improve Class Level for wizard. He is a fighter 2/wizard 1. He gains hit points, BAB, saves and skills as a fighter along with a fighter bonus feat. The feat allows him to cast spells as a level 2 wizard and his familiar has abilities as a level 2 wizard because summon familiar is on the special colum of the class table. He does not automatically learn 2 new wizards spells because this ability is not listed in the special column.

Then at level 4 he chooses to gain a level in wizard. He is now a fighter 2/wizard 2. He gains hit points, bab, saves and skills as a wizard. He also learns 2 new spells as a wizard. His familiar has abilities as a level 3 wizard and he casts spells as a level 3 wizard.

My intent is to have this feat be used to help multiclass characters. I am aware that there are some prestige classes that are designed to do the same. That is why I want to make level gained limited by non-prestige class levels, otherwise those prestige classes will make this feat unbalanced.

I originally had spellcasters in mind, but other classes can make use of it as well. A rogue can gain sneak attack or other rogue abilities. Druids gain shape change abilities. Paladins and monks will likely not be able to benefit because of multiclass restrictions. Fighters do not gain anything, but if you wanted fighting abilities, you would level up in fighter and use the feat on another class.

Criticism and comments are welcome.
gbnogkfs
06-18-04, 03:00 AM If notjing else.. it looks original
Geethree
06-18-04, 03:01 AM My immediate concern is this: will that feat help you qualify for PrCs earlier than you normally could? If so, it's likely broken.

Secondly, that feat is a min-maxer's dream. For instance, let's say you're a wizard. However, you decide to take a level of monk for the free feats, save bonuses, and what have you. But, you can just take that feat to still be effectively the same level of wizard. As it is written, it encourages level dipping because you aren't losing anything.

And, if I'm not mistaken, can't you use that feat to become higher level than you really are? For example, a wizard 5/[other class] 1 could be equal to a 7th level wizard, because the feat could have been taken twice. In other words, you have a 6th level character with 7th level casting abilities.
Basic_Set
06-18-04, 03:31 AM Nice idea Stuntman. I have a similar feat in my campaign, but only for spellcasting classes. Since I am not in favor of prestige classes, I made a feat that raises your caster level by one, thus allowing Eldritch Knight type characters (but less powerful, generally).

Your idea is more general and better... I may emulate it :). I suggest, however, not allowing characters with prestige classes to take such a feat, and not allowing characters with such a feat to take a prestige class. There are just too many broken possibilities both ways.

Geethree: (concerning your wizard/monk example) - you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added.
Geethree
06-18-04, 03:42 AM you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added.But in the example of a monk, you are gaining 2 feats, +2 to three saves (which is worth more than one feat), a larger hit dice, and you're not even losing out on skills (monks do have concentration). That's worth one feat to me.

Or, in the case of specialist wizards, they could take a level of sorcerer in order to be able to use prohibited wands and staves (if this is actually legal; I'm not sure).
fractal
06-18-04, 04:42 AM Originally posted by Geethree
Or, in the case of specialist wizards, they could take a level of sorcerer in order to be able to use prohibited wands and staves (if this is actually legal; I'm not sure).
That is legit, although a multi-class Wizard/Sorc isn't exactly a powerful build, even with a feat like this. Something with more diverse class features (and better hp!) would likely work better.

Incidentally, Stuntman, consider the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine. It has a similar effect to this, but since it only gives CL and not spells/day or spells/known, multiclass characters are still inferior (in some ways) to focused characters, as they should be.
Stuntman
06-18-04, 10:29 AM Originally posted by Geethree
My immediate concern is this: will that feat help you qualify for PrCs earlier than you normally could? If so, it's likely broken.

Secondly, that feat is a min-maxer's dream. For instance, let's say you're a wizard. However, you decide to take a level of monk for the free feats, save bonuses, and what have you. But, you can just take that feat to still be effectively the same level of wizard. As it is written, it encourages level dipping because you aren't losing anything.

And, if I'm not mistaken, can't you use that feat to become higher level than you really are? For example, a wizard 5/[other class] 1 could be equal to a 7th level wizard, because the feat could have been taken twice. In other words, you have a 6th level character with 7th level casting abilities.

I hadn't thought of its use to qualify for PrC's earlier. You are correct in this sense. I did try to limit its effect with the use of PrC's, but I guess I did not go far enough.

I did consider the possibility of dipping into a class to get some class features and sacrificing a feat for those. The idea was help mutliclass characters that tend to keep the class levels even. What I could do is increase the prerequesites where you need to have gained 2 levels in a particular class before you are allowed to choose that class for the feat. It's sort of like the ranger fix where you have to take 2 levels before you get 2WF. Would this help?

You cannot become higher level than you are. In my description you cannot have an effective level for any particular class that is higher than your total levels of all non-prestige classes. You can still take the feat. A wizard 5/base class X 1 could take the feat twice for the wizard class, but since the total base class levels is 6, your wizard level would be capped at 6. When you reach level 7, if you level up in class X then you would be effectively wizard 7/base class X 2.

I did this so that you can take the feat ahead of time and be able to gain the benefits later. You gain feats only once every 3 levels, and I did not want to penalise players who do not level up in the right order. You can basically take the feat multiple times and defer the benefits until you level up in other classes.
Stuntman
06-18-04, 10:34 AM Originally posted by fractal
Incidentally, Stuntman, consider the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine. It has a similar effect to this, but since it only gives CL and not spells/day or spells/known, multiclass characters are still inferior (in some ways) to focused characters, as they should be.

I actually drew some of my inspiration from this feat. Practiced spellcaster caps your levels to not exceed your hit dice. That is the feature that I imitated from practiced spellcaster for Improved Class Level. I had posted a similar feat that affected only caster levels some time ago, but had some difficulty with how to word it so that your level cannot exceed that of a single classed character. I chose to limit it based on the total base class levels instead of hit dice.
Stuntman
06-18-04, 10:59 AM Originally posted by Basic_Set
Your idea is more general and better... I may emulate it :). I suggest, however, not allowing characters with prestige classes to take such a feat, and not allowing characters with such a feat to take a prestige class. There are just too many broken possibilities both ways.

Geethree: (concerning your wizard/monk example) - you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added.

Yeah, the prestige class is an issue. I want to limit its power with PrC's such as the mystic theruge and eldritch knight because prestige classes such as these are meant to do the same as my feat. However, I do not want to make this feat unbalanced with other prestige classes that are not meant to be multiclass fixes.

The MTh and EK are my least favourite PrC's. These two PrC's exist only to address the multiclass issue. The psion/wizard PrC does the same. The arcane trickster is actually OK because it is not just a straight rogue/wizard build.

Anyway, I digress. What my intention was with this feat is to allow a multiclass character up to 6 level ups over the course of 20 levels. Each level up costs a feat. It is primarily to help multiclass characters that keep class levels roughly even. These multiclass characters tend to be the weakest. As written, I do understand that you can simply dip into a class and gain the benefits of that class and trade a feat to maintain your level in your primary class.

My feat does not allow your effective level to be higher than that of a single class character. My description says, "the effective class levels for any one class may not exceed the total number of core (non-prestige) class levels for the character." Perhaps I should put a harder cap than this.

How about if the maximum levels gained by this feat for any one class cannot exceed 1/2 of the levels of your lowest class? That way, you must be level 2 in all of your classes before you realise the benefits of this feat the first time. You can take the feat at level 3 for one of your classes, but since you are class A 1/class B 2, you do not gain any benefits. Once you reach level 4, you level up in class A so you are class A 2/class B 2. Then you realise the benefit of the feat that you took back at level 3. So at level 4 you become class A 2/class B 3.

This change forces players to take 2 levels in a class before they can benefit from the feat. It is like the ranger fix in 3.5 where you now need to take 2 levels to get 2WF. At level 6 if you keep one of your classes at level 2, you cannot continue to benefit from this feat for the same class until you reach level 4 in both. At level 6, if you are class A 4/class B 2 and had applied the feat previously to class B, you would be effectively class A 4/class B 3. If you take the feat at level 6 for class B again, you will have to wait until you reached level 4 in both classes before this feat takes effect. You can however take the feat for class A and get the benefit immediately.

Basically, this would help out characters that keep their levels even and would limit the benefit for those characters that dip into a 2 levels of a class. It would not benefit anyone who takes only 1 level of any class.

As for its effect on prestige classes, I think it will allow some characters to qualify sooner. I'm hoping that the effect is minimal (1 level sooner) for most. There are a large number of them and I have not looked through all of them yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stuntman 06-18-04, 01:29 AM	The current multiclass system has some flaws. The biggest flaws is the fact that multiclass spellcasters really lose out. Not only that, other non-spellcasting class features are also lost, such as the rogue's sneak attack ability. The 3.5 core rules uses various prestige classes in order to help out multiclass characters. I propose using a feat to help out multiclass characters, especially those that keep two classes within one level of the other in order to avoid XP penalties. Here is the feat: Improved Class Level [General] You improved the class features of one of your classes. Prerequisite: Must have more than one base class. Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one of your base (non-prestige) classes. You gain class features for that class except for hit points, BAB, saves, and skill points as if you are one level higher for that class. Basically, the effective class level for spell casting and abilities listed in the special column increases by one. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effect stack if you choose the same class twice. However, the effective class levels for any one class may not exceed the total number of core (non-prestige) class levels for the character. You may only take this feat as one of the feats you gain by advancing a level. You may not take this feat as the feat that is granted by a class. For example, you cannot take this feat as one of the rogue's special abilities even though the rogue can take a feat as one of the special abilities. You also cannot choose a class in which you are no longer allowed to advance in. Basically what this feat allows is for a multiclass to bump up the effective level of one of the classes by one at the expense of a feat. For example, a fighter 1/wizard 1 advances a level. At level 3, he gain a feat. He chooses to go up a level in fighter and takes Improve Class Level for wizard. He is a fighter 2/wizard 1. He gains hit points, BAB, saves and skills as a fighter along with a fighter bonus feat. The feat allows him to cast spells as a level 2 wizard and his familiar has abilities as a level 2 wizard because summon familiar is on the special colum of the class table. He does not automatically learn 2 new wizards spells because this ability is not listed in the special column. Then at level 4 he chooses to gain a level in wizard. He is now a fighter 2/wizard 2. He gains hit points, bab, saves and skills as a wizard. He also learns 2 new spells as a wizard. His familiar has abilities as a level 3 wizard and he casts spells as a level 3 wizard. My intent is to have this feat be used to help multiclass characters. I am aware that there are some prestige classes that are designed to do the same. That is why I want to make level gained limited by non-prestige class levels, otherwise those prestige classes will make this feat unbalanced. I originally had spellcasters in mind, but other classes can make use of it as well. A rogue can gain sneak attack or other rogue abilities. Druids gain shape change abilities. Paladins and monks will likely not be able to benefit because of multiclass restrictions. Fighters do not gain anything, but if you wanted fighting abilities, you would level up in fighter and use the feat on another class. Criticism and comments are welcome.
gbnogkfs 06-18-04, 03:00 AM	If notjing else.. it looks original
Geethree 06-18-04, 03:01 AM	My immediate concern is this: will that feat help you qualify for PrCs earlier than you normally could? If so, it's likely broken. Secondly, that feat is a min-maxer's dream. For instance, let's say you're a wizard. However, you decide to take a level of monk for the free feats, save bonuses, and what have you. But, you can just take that feat to still be effectively the same level of wizard. As it is written, it encourages level dipping because you aren't losing anything. And, if I'm not mistaken, can't you use that feat to become higher level than you really are? For example, a wizard 5/[other class] 1 could be equal to a 7th level wizard, because the feat could have been taken twice. In other words, you have a 6th level character with 7th level casting abilities.
Basic_Set 06-18-04, 03:31 AM	Nice idea Stuntman. I have a similar feat in my campaign, but only for spellcasting classes. Since I am not in favor of prestige classes, I made a feat that raises your caster level by one, thus allowing Eldritch Knight type characters (but less powerful, generally). Your idea is more general and better... I may emulate it :). I suggest, however, not allowing characters with prestige classes to take such a feat, and not allowing characters with such a feat to take a prestige class. There are just too many broken possibilities both ways. Geethree: (concerning your wizard/monk example) - you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added.
Geethree 06-18-04, 03:42 AM	you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added.But in the example of a monk, you are gaining 2 feats, +2 to three saves (which is worth more than one feat), a larger hit dice, and you're not even losing out on skills (monks do have concentration). That's worth one feat to me. Or, in the case of specialist wizards, they could take a level of sorcerer in order to be able to use prohibited wands and staves (if this is actually legal; I'm not sure).
fractal 06-18-04, 04:42 AM	Originally posted by Geethree Or, in the case of specialist wizards, they could take a level of sorcerer in order to be able to use prohibited wands and staves (if this is actually legal; I'm not sure). That is legit, although a multi-class Wizard/Sorc isn't exactly a powerful build, even with a feat like this. Something with more diverse class features (and better hp!) would likely work better. Incidentally, Stuntman, consider the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine. It has a similar effect to this, but since it only gives CL and not spells/day or spells/known, multiclass characters are still inferior (in some ways) to focused characters, as they should be.
Stuntman 06-18-04, 10:29 AM	Originally posted by Geethree My immediate concern is this: will that feat help you qualify for PrCs earlier than you normally could? If so, it's likely broken. Secondly, that feat is a min-maxer's dream. For instance, let's say you're a wizard. However, you decide to take a level of monk for the free feats, save bonuses, and what have you. But, you can just take that feat to still be effectively the same level of wizard. As it is written, it encourages level dipping because you aren't losing anything. And, if I'm not mistaken, can't you use that feat to become higher level than you really are? For example, a wizard 5/[other class] 1 could be equal to a 7th level wizard, because the feat could have been taken twice. In other words, you have a 6th level character with 7th level casting abilities. I hadn't thought of its use to qualify for PrC's earlier. You are correct in this sense. I did try to limit its effect with the use of PrC's, but I guess I did not go far enough. I did consider the possibility of dipping into a class to get some class features and sacrificing a feat for those. The idea was help mutliclass characters that tend to keep the class levels even. What I could do is increase the prerequesites where you need to have gained 2 levels in a particular class before you are allowed to choose that class for the feat. It's sort of like the ranger fix where you have to take 2 levels before you get 2WF. Would this help? You cannot become higher level than you are. In my description you cannot have an effective level for any particular class that is higher than your total levels of all non-prestige classes. You can still take the feat. A wizard 5/base class X 1 could take the feat twice for the wizard class, but since the total base class levels is 6, your wizard level would be capped at 6. When you reach level 7, if you level up in class X then you would be effectively wizard 7/base class X 2. I did this so that you can take the feat ahead of time and be able to gain the benefits later. You gain feats only once every 3 levels, and I did not want to penalise players who do not level up in the right order. You can basically take the feat multiple times and defer the benefits until you level up in other classes.
Stuntman 06-18-04, 10:34 AM	Originally posted by fractal Incidentally, Stuntman, consider the feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Divine. It has a similar effect to this, but since it only gives CL and not spells/day or spells/known, multiclass characters are still inferior (in some ways) to focused characters, as they should be. I actually drew some of my inspiration from this feat. Practiced spellcaster caps your levels to not exceed your hit dice. That is the feature that I imitated from practiced spellcaster for Improved Class Level. I had posted a similar feat that affected only caster levels some time ago, but had some difficulty with how to word it so that your level cannot exceed that of a single classed character. I chose to limit it based on the total base class levels instead of hit dice.
Stuntman 06-18-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Basic_Set Your idea is more general and better... I may emulate it :). I suggest, however, not allowing characters with prestige classes to take such a feat, and not allowing characters with such a feat to take a prestige class. There are just too many broken possibilities both ways. Geethree: (concerning your wizard/monk example) - you ARE losing something: a feat. True, this isn't a very large loss, however. Perhaps more restrictions should be added. Yeah, the prestige class is an issue. I want to limit its power with PrC's such as the mystic theruge and eldritch knight because prestige classes such as these are meant to do the same as my feat. However, I do not want to make this feat unbalanced with other prestige classes that are not meant to be multiclass fixes. The MTh and EK are my least favourite PrC's. These two PrC's exist only to address the multiclass issue. The psion/wizard PrC does the same. The arcane trickster is actually OK because it is not just a straight rogue/wizard build. Anyway, I digress. What my intention was with this feat is to allow a multiclass character up to 6 level ups over the course of 20 levels. Each level up costs a feat. It is primarily to help multiclass characters that keep class levels roughly even. These multiclass characters tend to be the weakest. As written, I do understand that you can simply dip into a class and gain the benefits of that class and trade a feat to maintain your level in your primary class. My feat does not allow your effective level to be higher than that of a single class character. My description says, "the effective class levels for any one class may not exceed the total number of core (non-prestige) class levels for the character." Perhaps I should put a harder cap than this. How about if the maximum levels gained by this feat for any one class cannot exceed 1/2 of the levels of your lowest class? That way, you must be level 2 in all of your classes before you realise the benefits of this feat the first time. You can take the feat at level 3 for one of your classes, but since you are class A 1/class B 2, you do not gain any benefits. Once you reach level 4, you level up in class A so you are class A 2/class B 2. Then you realise the benefit of the feat that you took back at level 3. So at level 4 you become class A 2/class B 3. This change forces players to take 2 levels in a class before they can benefit from the feat. It is like the ranger fix in 3.5 where you now need to take 2 levels to get 2WF. At level 6 if you keep one of your classes at level 2, you cannot continue to benefit from this feat for the same class until you reach level 4 in both. At level 6, if you are class A 4/class B 2 and had applied the feat previously to class B, you would be effectively class A 4/class B 3. If you take the feat at level 6 for class B again, you will have to wait until you reached level 4 in both classes before this feat takes effect. You can however take the feat for class A and get the benefit immediately. Basically, this would help out characters that keep their levels even and would limit the benefit for those characters that dip into a 2 levels of a class. It would not benefit anyone who takes only 1 level of any class. As for its effect on prestige classes, I think it will allow some characters to qualify sooner. I'm hoping that the effect is minimal (1 level sooner) for most. There are a large number of them and I have not looked through all of them yet.