Post/Author/DateTime	Post
G.S.Dickerson 12-02-05, 09:53 AM	First off, how does LA work with gestalt? Do you treat it the same? Because I don't see the half-ogre making that much of a difference in a gestalt campaign. A level 8/8 fighter/barbarian half-ogre doesn't seem as good as a level 10/10 half orc fighter/barbarian. Anyways... On to the second question. I'm making an uber grappler to help out the one and only PC thats playing. So far I have Monk/fighter, and I can have up to level 9, and yet the PC can still out grapple him (9/9 psy. warrior/fighter half giant) So please help me out here. I think I'm going to have to make him large somehow, with lots of str. I play tonight so I would LOVE some help as soon as possible. :begs:
Nessaj 12-02-05, 11:51 AM	Generally, LA's play on both sides of the character, or it would be quite broken...Meaning if you have a +1 LA for a 9th level char, you would be 8xclass/8xclass. At least that is my understanding of it. Monk...Psy Warrior...Would seem even except I bet that Psy Warrior has Iron Grip, which gives an additional +4 to grapples...Although the best grappler combination is fighter variant of some sort, you'll have to come up with a combo that best suits you since I can't think of any real grappling Prestige Classes except Reaping Mauler (which wont really help you get better at it). Large sized, so half-ogre (or half-giant) are a good choice. Although it's far from optimal vs. another grappler, my favorite (and only) grappling combo was a 7th level Gestault Fighter-Warmage I came up with. With the DM's permission, I was able to get Fire Shield damage with a successful grapple check. Combine that with Shocking Armor Spikes, Weapon Focus-Unarmed Strike, and a level of Monk, I was doing 1d4+2d6+3str+2foc+1magic+10 (shield) damage a check, which might not seem like a ton when I could just scorching ray instead, but was a hell of a lot of fun since I was also a halfling. Throw in a Fist of Stone before, and a Stilled Ring of Blades after you start the grapple and they've got a tough choice ahead of them.
Dionon 12-02-05, 12:19 PM	Monk/Fighter... hmmmmm.... twinkalicious Monk Bonus Class Feats you Want to take: Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Trip Fighter Bonus Feats you want to take: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Stunning Fist Character Feats you should take: Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed) If you let your character be lv 10 instead of 9, you can take Greater Weapon Specialization also Just make sure to have a massive strength, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power or the Belt of Giant Strength (if that's even in 3.5...) If you want your character to use a weapon, Spiked Chains are the way to go, as well as Whips.
Vaelan 12-02-05, 12:29 PM	Generally, LA's play on both sides of the character, or it would be quite broken...Meaning if you have a +1 LA for a 9th level char, you would be 8xclass/8xclass. At least that is my understanding of it. Your understanding of it is not based in the written rules then, because they say nothing about using gestalt with LA races. I'd say make a racial progression similar to the ones found in Savage Species and on the official website and use it just like any other class. As for these allegations that this would be unbalanced, very few races with reasonable ECLs have abilities that are not completely mimicked by polymorph, and high-ECL races tend to have poor special abilities when compared to an average PC of the same ECL as those monsters are made to present a challenge to lower-level parties. For example, could a group of four level 8 characters take down a level 15 Wizard? Probably not. Yet an Illithid has an ECL of 15 and a CR of 8.
nnnnn 12-02-05, 12:36 PM	With Monk/PsyWar you get the very nice WIS synergy on the two classes. With the extra power points and tons of feats, you'll be a grappling monster in no time. The only drawback is the lowered BAB but the monk/Psywar combo gives you more versatility than a monk/fighter combo or fighter/psywar combo. The point of gestalt is to mesh as many non-cancelling advantages and non-duplicating advantages as possible. Psywar/monk does a good job of that, wherase psywar fighter and monk/fighter duplicate and or cancel too many advanatages. Monk/fighter cancels one of the monk''s best ablities, the WIS bonus to AC combined with armor proficiency. While the monk/psywar has the same point, the psywar has "inertial armor" which is cheap and effective and perfect for non-armor-wearing monks... You'll be an excellent grappler instead of a godlike grappler, but you'll also have stunning fist, etc. and other useful abilities besides just grappling. Psywar powers that help you in the grappling dept: Expansion Grip of Iron Strength of my enemy Animal Affinity (helps both grappling and Stunnign Fist DC...) If you have time to buff you can grapple just about anything, and you also have lots of feats to play with. By sixth level you can have a very impressive Stunning Fist DC, with Pain Touch on it to boot, and STILL have the capablity of dominating grappling checks. You only need two high stats for it all to work, STR and WIS. nnnnn
Telathidar_Mhaelin 12-02-05, 01:19 PM	For example, could a group of four level 8 characters take down a level 15 Wizard? Probably not. Yet an Illithid has an ECL of 15 and a CR of 8. Cr is based on how challenging the thing is in a single encounter (not as difficult as a 15th level wizard), ECL is based on how useful/powerful the thing is in a party day in and day out. The illithid's mix of powers make it just as viable a 15th level character as a wizard, just with a different focus. That said i see nothing wrong with treating cretures with LA in gestalt campaigns as using their monster class (ala savage species) as one half of the gestalt until done, with the other half unfettered by race. Thus we could have a Gestalt Wiz 10 Incant 10/ Illithid 15 Acm 5. (nasty yes, any worse then other gestalt options? no).
Zerchai 12-02-05, 07:04 PM	Don't forget the Improved Natural Attack feat out of the Monster Manual to improve your damage. I personally would go into the Reaping Mauler prestige class, myself - gives you a +2 bonus on grappling checks in addition to a full bab progression, some nice grappling abilities (sleeper hold, death lock), and I'd also take a look at the Earth's Embrace feat out of the Complete Warrior. Dealing 1d12 damage automatically for maintaining a pin, in addition to all your normal actions is nothing to sneeze at, especially combined with a Reaping Mauler's special abilities that reward you for maintaining a pin. I would rule that in a gestalt campaign, halve LA, so a half-ogre would only have a +1 LA. You're right, losing out on 2 levels in 2 classes is a much bigger loss than losing 2 levels in one class. In any case, definately max out your levels in monk, and look for a secondary class that can help you to debilitate your foes, like the hexblade. Just my humble opinion and I hope it helps!
Rabid Dire Wolverine 12-02-05, 07:37 PM	The illithid's mix of powers make it just as viable a 15th level character as a wizard, just with a different focus. The 15th level wizard can do everything an Illithid can do and more. However, I believe that the CR/ECL difference is due to avoid rampant munchinism, as certain prestige classes and feats may let an Illithid with 5 levels kick the 15th level wizards butt. Maybe wouldn't be as useful to the party as the wizard, but still. I've been wondering about LA for Gestalt too, because 1 LA for one class/class level is obviously underpowered, but LA/class is underpowered. And I agree with the reaping mauler.
Rulebook 12-02-05, 10:03 PM	best grappler i ever had was a Barbarian. i say go Barbarian/Psywar for about 6 levels, then finish out the last levels with Reaping Mauler/Psywar (half giant Barbarian6/Reapingmauler2//Psywar8) monks get it for free and all, and get the unarmed damage which is nice, but barbarians are gonna help drive that check way up there. plus half-giant barbarians are just freaky
Seeker of Undeath 12-03-05, 10:48 AM	First off, how does LA work with gestalt? Do you treat it the same?Yes, it's the same as always. It's a handicap. It's levels you don't have.Because I don't see the half-ogre making that much of a difference in a gestalt campaign.Most things with a LA are utterly useless in a gestalt game.A level 8/8 fighter/barbarian half-ogre doesn't seem as good as a level 10/10 half orc fighter/barbarian. Anyways...It doesn't appear as good to me either at a glance. On to the second question. I'm making an uber grappler to help out the one and only PC thats playing. So far I have Monk/fighter, and I can have up to level 9, and yet the PC can still out grapple him (9/9 psy. warrior/fighter half giant) So please help me out here. I think I'm going to have to make him large somehow, with lots of str. I play tonight so I would LOVE some help as soon as possible. :begs:Okay to help the grapplers out we need to look first at ways to make your check good. High BAB: Fighter handles that. Good, easy damage: Monk handles that with unarmed fighting. High strength score: that's on you and your dice. Size modifier: that depends on your race and/or magic. Now Clever Wrestling will help you by matching an opponent's bonus due to size but only for the purpose of escaping a grapple. Basically you're going to want a friendly set of spellcasters to Enlarge/Righteous Might you up to size. Alternately do some of that yourself and be a Fighter/caster mix. You can add to damage with Earth's Embrace. I recommend using Reaping Mauler at some point for the sleeper hold and finisher. Close-Quarters Fighting will let you ignore an enemy's Improved Grapple feat and make an attack of opportunity. You could use that to start a grapple on your terms if you so chose. If you're capable of Rage and/or Frenzy, those will boost your strength and offer you improvements for both grapple checks and damage. Of course anything else that boosts strength will do that too. I happen to like the idea of being a Warshaper and starting a grapple from 10ft away. Since it offers a nice +4 str&con at 2nd level it does help you a little. Of course a Dragon Disciple would have a nice strength advantage in some cases, but it takes a long while to get that full advantage. It's probably not worth it to you. You could use Hold the Line and Karmic Strike to give you more chances to make an attack (grapples start with a touch attack ;) ). I hope this gives you some things to think on. I don't think anyone's come up with a standard uber grappler yet. It's one of the harder things to tweak right now. Essentially it's best to be Pun-Pun so that you can have as much strength as you want and increase your size to colossal. Thankfully most DMs frown on that so we'll just have to keep scheming. BTW the spell Divine Power raises your BAB to equal your hit dice (the maximum) and boosts your strength by +6. It'd be very possible to do a Fighter/Cleric grappler if you're of a mind to.
Ander Spectacular 12-03-05, 11:34 AM	I would use a Barbarian(Bear Totem from UA)5/Fighter2/Ranger2 on one side and Druid 5/Master of Many Forms4 on the other. Bear totem barbarian grants improved grapple for free along with +4 on grapple checks when raging. Use MoMF to turn into something big and strong. Druid levels allow you to use wands and such to help balance out having few spells. Even using a form such as a standard troll you should be able to get a huge grapple check. +9(BAB), +4(Improved Grapple), +4(large size), +10(30 strength), +4(when raging)=+31 grapple check. It always helps to worship Kord as well since in CD he has the Belt of Champions which grants +10 on grapple checks. A +41 grapple check at 9th level is nice, and it takes no real buffing aside from 1 use of wildshape. Of course, at higher levels you will be able to buff that up even higher. -AS-