A few questions about bards. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few questions about bards. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pordge
11-15-07, 11:57 AM My buddies and I are starting a new group next week and I was reading over the Bard class. I have never played a support class for any game, and I thought a bard would help me get out of my element and at the same time be a ton of fun. My only problem is, I don't know what feats/skills to take up to optimize my character and help out the group at the same time. I plan on being a gnome bard, chaotic neutral allignment, and that is about all I have figured out so far. If anyone, that has played this class, give me some tips or pointers in the right direction, that would be awesome.
vorpo
11-15-07, 12:04 PM As suggested in PHB2, there are basically 3 ways you can play the bard: controller, problem solver or vanguard.

If you are leaning toward pure supporter, I'd say problem solver.

In that case:
Skill focus (UMD), arcane flourish, magical aptitude are good choices to start.
LoneFlame
11-15-07, 12:05 PM If you really want to help out the party, be a Cleric, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVarian tCloisteredCleric), or Crusader(with White Raven & Devoted Spirit Maneuvers), cause Bard pretty much sucks.
LSMFT
11-15-07, 12:46 PM Bards are fun. There are like a million ways to play them.

Outside of combat, bards rule: You’ve got Bluff and Diplomacy and have, typically, a high Cha. Take a few ranks in Sense Motive and you can lead the group through social situations. You also have Bardic Knowledge and all knowledge skills as class skills.

I would talk to my DM about knowledge skills. In some campaigns, they are pointless and in others vital. In some campaigns, Bardic Knowledge subs for all knowledge skills and in others it is its own thing. Ask.

Regardless, you are the best source of info for your party. Add Gather Information to your skills list and be persistent with your DM about making those checks when ever it is appropriate.

Inside combat, they aren’t great. It is nice to have a ranged weapon and a decent dex. But really, you are better off supporting: sing a little. Everyone in the party does better with Inspire courage. It helps all your allies, so that includes animal companions and summoned creatures too.

For your spell-casting, you are never going to be a wizard or a cleric. You are the back-up to both. Make them better by covering certain areas so they don’t have to. You’re a gnome, so you get a racial bonus to illusions. I’d go that way. Use Silent Image to control the battle. Put a wall between your primary casters and the bad guys. Or between your sneak attacking rogue and the bad guys.
windscar18
11-15-07, 06:39 PM I'm going to go on the assumption that if you mean team support, then you're talking about songs and spells (and I don't know any other way). Well, in truth, bard's power is very dependent on what books are allowed and whether you can PrC or not.

If you have Complete Arcane, then the bard takes a leap in power: Sublime Chord is easily one of the "must-take" PrCs that a non-pure-warrior bard must use. The main problem here is that Sublime Chord freezes song growth, but to continue progressing in that spell list, you must take a PrC that improves spellcasting rate. Which leads us to...

If you have Complete Adventurer in addition, the Virtuoso is a great target for the Sublime Chord here, since it mentions that it also continues Inspire Courage progression.

If you have Book of Exalted Deeds, then the bard takes a second leap in power: Words of Creation is simply great for using that Inspire Courage, though it's actual power can range from great to pretty dang powerful depending on how you can stack inspire courage modifiers (more on that next). Words of Creation can also allow 2 levels of Seeker of the Song from Complete Arcane to have some use, if you're not interested in level 9 spells from Sublime Chord and would rather focus on singing for that Dual Song.

If your DM allows any combination of Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, DM's Guide II, and/or Eberron Campaign Setting, the bard then takes a small jump per book, since all four of those contain Inspire Courage amplifiers (Inspirational Boost spell, Badge of Valor item, Vest of Legends item, and Song of the Heart feat).

If you would rather stick with a warrior bard, then this is kind of cheating, but if you have Tome of Battle, Song of the White Raven allows you to have great Inspire Courage with only three or four levels of Bard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pordge 11-15-07, 11:57 AM	My buddies and I are starting a new group next week and I was reading over the Bard class. I have never played a support class for any game, and I thought a bard would help me get out of my element and at the same time be a ton of fun. My only problem is, I don't know what feats/skills to take up to optimize my character and help out the group at the same time. I plan on being a gnome bard, chaotic neutral allignment, and that is about all I have figured out so far. If anyone, that has played this class, give me some tips or pointers in the right direction, that would be awesome.
vorpo 11-15-07, 12:04 PM	As suggested in PHB2, there are basically 3 ways you can play the bard: controller, problem solver or vanguard. If you are leaning toward pure supporter, I'd say problem solver. In that case: Skill focus (UMD), arcane flourish, magical aptitude are good choices to start.
LoneFlame 11-15-07, 12:05 PM	If you really want to help out the party, be a Cleric, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVarian tCloisteredCleric), or Crusader(with White Raven & Devoted Spirit Maneuvers), cause Bard pretty much sucks.
LSMFT 11-15-07, 12:46 PM	Bards are fun. There are like a million ways to play them. Outside of combat, bards rule: You’ve got Bluff and Diplomacy and have, typically, a high Cha. Take a few ranks in Sense Motive and you can lead the group through social situations. You also have Bardic Knowledge and all knowledge skills as class skills. I would talk to my DM about knowledge skills. In some campaigns, they are pointless and in others vital. In some campaigns, Bardic Knowledge subs for all knowledge skills and in others it is its own thing. Ask. Regardless, you are the best source of info for your party. Add Gather Information to your skills list and be persistent with your DM about making those checks when ever it is appropriate. Inside combat, they aren’t great. It is nice to have a ranged weapon and a decent dex. But really, you are better off supporting: sing a little. Everyone in the party does better with Inspire courage. It helps all your allies, so that includes animal companions and summoned creatures too. For your spell-casting, you are never going to be a wizard or a cleric. You are the back-up to both. Make them better by covering certain areas so they don’t have to. You’re a gnome, so you get a racial bonus to illusions. I’d go that way. Use Silent Image to control the battle. Put a wall between your primary casters and the bad guys. Or between your sneak attacking rogue and the bad guys.
windscar18 11-15-07, 06:39 PM	I'm going to go on the assumption that if you mean team support, then you're talking about songs and spells (and I don't know any other way). Well, in truth, bard's power is very dependent on what books are allowed and whether you can PrC or not. If you have Complete Arcane, then the bard takes a leap in power: Sublime Chord is easily one of the "must-take" PrCs that a non-pure-warrior bard must use. The main problem here is that Sublime Chord freezes song growth, but to continue progressing in that spell list, you must take a PrC that improves spellcasting rate. Which leads us to... If you have Complete Adventurer in addition, the Virtuoso is a great target for the Sublime Chord here, since it mentions that it also continues Inspire Courage progression. If you have Book of Exalted Deeds, then the bard takes a second leap in power: Words of Creation is simply great for using that Inspire Courage, though it's actual power can range from great to pretty dang powerful depending on how you can stack inspire courage modifiers (more on that next). Words of Creation can also allow 2 levels of Seeker of the Song from Complete Arcane to have some use, if you're not interested in level 9 spells from Sublime Chord and would rather focus on singing for that Dual Song. If your DM allows any combination of Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, DM's Guide II, and/or Eberron Campaign Setting, the bard then takes a small jump per book, since all four of those contain Inspire Courage amplifiers (Inspirational Boost spell, Badge of Valor item, Vest of Legends item, and Song of the Heart feat). If you would rather stick with a warrior bard, then this is kind of cheating, but if you have Tome of Battle, Song of the White Raven allows you to have great Inspire Courage with only three or four levels of Bard.