Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnny_Angel 05-14-07, 07:18 PM	First: With all of the new books and PrCs, are the PrCs from the DMG still a viable option; if so, which ones do you feel are and why; if not, which ones do you feel aren't and why. the Horizon Walker seems to be pretty good, but I'm not sure... Second: Can a sorceror become a "Red Wizard"? It seems that from the requirements section that they can; if so, would that be a viable option? I'm not necessarily asking if it's the "best" option; I'm just curious what the common consensus would be for how well it would perform. Third: Archmage? Some of the abilities seem nice, but I'm not sure if the sacrifice is worth it. I'm looking at playing a sorceror in an upcoming game -personally, I just like the feel of a sorceror, so I prefer to play a sorc over a wiz. I don't consider myself to be a powergamer, but the group I play with generally tends to focus on more power-oriented characters; I like to try to find a middle ground - I try to come up with a good story, but (at the same time) I want to make sure that I'm not totally behind the power curve. More than anything though, I've been looking at some options I hadn't considered before - hence the questions about the PrCs from the DMG.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 07:27 PM	First: With all of the new books and PrCs, are the PrCs from the DMG still a viable option; if so, which ones do you feel are and why; if not, which ones do you feel aren't and why.Many of them are still viable, although a few are totally worthless (arcane archer, dwarven defender, I'm looking at you). the Horizon Walker seems to be pretty good, but I'm not sure...In a few circumstances, yes, but in general, no.Second: Can a sorceror become a "Red Wizard"? It seems that from the requirements section that they can; if so, would that be a viable option? I'm not necessarily asking if it's the "best" option; I'm just curious what the common consensus would be for how well it would perform.Yes No (I forgot that Tattoo Magic had a specialization requirement), the Red Wizards aren't going to like you. (I'd suggest reading Faerun to understand it, but I wouldn't wish that torture on my worst enemies. It's just behind Planescape on my list of Worst Settings Evar.)Third: Archmage? Some of the abilities seem nice, but I'm not sure if the sacrifice is worth it.In general, if you have room and can meet the requirements (i.e. you aren't using all your feats for everything) it's worth it. It's harder for sorcerers than wizards, but this is universally the case.I'm looking at playing a sorceror in an upcoming game -personally, I just like the feel of a sorceror, so I prefer to play a sorc over a wiz. I don't consider myself to be a powergamer, but the group I play with generally tends to focus on more power-oriented characters; I like to try to find a middle ground - I try to come up with a good story, but (at the same time) I want to make sure that I'm not totally behind the power curve.You don't need to play a weaker character to get a better story. The two are completely unrelated. You can have a phenominally good story with a very good character, a paltry story with a very good character, a phenominally good story with a weak character, or a paltry story with a weak character. For the record, though, sorcerers are totally boned by WotC. The best support they've gotten are a few exclusive spells from Races of the Dragon. The truly good toys -- PrCs, metamagic, feats, items, and so on -- are all firmly in the Wizard's court. If you like the idea of a spontaneous mage, play a psion and call it magic.
Naderion 05-14-07, 07:28 PM	A sorcerer can not become a Red Wizard, because this class is restricted to specialized Wizards. The Archmage class become interesting once you allready have reached your maximum spell level, but before it's usually a bad choice because access to new spell levels is just to usefull.
Johnny_Angel 05-14-07, 07:43 PM	A sorcerer can not become a Red Wizard, because this class is restricted to specialized Wizards. The Archmage class become interesting once you allready have reached your maximum spell level, but before it's usually a bad choice because access to new spell levels is just to usefull. I thought the same thing about the Red Wizard, but -at the risk of being called a rules lawyer- I'm going to point out that none of the requirements say that you need to be a wizard. The main thing I was looking at as a benefit was the circle magic (as a sorc, I figure I could gain some followers with a good Cha and leadership.) For the record, I'm not playing in Faerun; it's a homebrew game that somebody else is DMing; the DM gave us some creative freedom in regards to our back story and whatnot. The basic story I'm working with is that my character is of noble birth, and (although slightly cheesy) I was going to say (if I go with the Red Wiz PrC) that I'm from the kingdom of Thay - a mysterious nation with a long tradition of powerful spellcasting. My mother was going to be the LE queen of the realm - even though my character won't be evil. If you've read R. Howard, the best way I could describe my basic idea is a mix of the Red Wizard's flavor with Stygia.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 07:48 PM	I thought the same thing about the Red Wizard, but -at the risk of being called a rules lawyer- I'm going to point out that none of the requirements say that you need to be a wizard. The main thing I was looking at as a benefit was the circle magic (as a sorc, I figure I could gain some followers with a good Cha and leadership.)Tattoo Magic, the required feat, has the requirement of "Must be specialized in a school of magic". Sorcerers cannot do this. (I was wrong in my earlier reply; I forgot about that.) Sorcerers *can* have banned schools -- the Incantrix, for instance, can be entered by sorcerers (though it's not anywhere NEAR as easy as it is for wizards) and once they enter, they give up a school similar to school specialization. I don't have the book with me; I forget if that actually counts as specialization or not. I'd be inclined to think NO (no benefits for a given school).For the record, I'm not playing in Faerun; it's a homebrew game that somebody else is DMing; the DM gave us some creative freedom in regards to our back story and whatnot. The basic story I'm working with is that my character is of noble birth, and (although slightly cheesy) I was going to say (if I go with the Red Wiz PrC) that I'm from the kingdom of Thay - a mysterious nation with a long tradition of powerful spellcasting. My mother was going to be the LE queen of the realm - even though my character won't be evil. If you've read R. Howard, the best way I could describe my basic idea is a mix of the Red Wizard's flavor with Stygia.And you can do this with any class with a magical feel. I reiterate my suggestion for psion; just call it a sorcerer and describe what he does as magic and you're in the clear. (All the joys of spontaneous casting without the problems the sorcerer has, but without the broken wizard spell effects either.)
Johnny_Angel 05-14-07, 08:02 PM	I didn't catch the part about tattoo magic, so that's an oversight on my part. Unfortunately, Psionics is one of the few books I don't have, but I definately appreciate the advice. I've done something similar before - I played a barbarian, but instead of being the typical raised-in-the-wilderness; can't read type of guy he was just a warrior with an anger management problem. I've also been very heavily considering Eldritch Theurge (warlock/sorc combo.) I'd use my eldrich blasts for offensive power and use my spell slots (mainly) for other things - call me crazy, but I find having some divination spells to be useful. I wanted something with a more regal feel to it; that's what brought my attention to the red wizard. Are there any other classes which have a similar mechanic or feel?
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 08:31 PM	Unfortunately, Psionics is one of the few books I don't have, but I definately appreciate the advice. I've done something similar before - I played a barbarian, but instead of being the typical raised-in-the-wilderness; can't read type of guy he was just a warrior with an anger management problem.Perfectly reasonable reflavoring, and the key to having a good time with D&D's flexibility. For instance, warforged barbarians were given as an example character in Eberron lore. They were built to be skirmishers, rapidly moving between encounter sites and engaging in limited but overpowering attacks, possibly boosted with the aid of simple alchemical reactions. Mechanically, though, they're barbarians. For the record, though, nearly ALL the psionics rules are abvailable for free online (http://www.d20SRD.org). For more information, see the FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638776), which is also linked in my signature (and stickied on the psionics forum).I wanted something with a more regal feel to it; that's what brought my attention to the red wizard. Are there any other classes which have a similar mechanic or feel?There's nothing regal about the red wizards, especially in their mechanics. Anything about them leading nations or whatnot is purely flavor-based, and can be changed however you see fit. What, exactly, are you looking for?
jaelis 05-14-07, 09:12 PM	Though sorcs don't have the love that wizards get, they are still a strong class and lots of fun to play. Archmage is indeed hard to get into, but is a good PrC for them. The main cost (once you're in) is sacrificing spell slots, which sorcs have plenty of. The psionic system seems nice, but I dislike the pseudoscience terminology and renaming everything seems like so much work...
Johnny_Angel 05-14-07, 09:13 PM	I sort of liked the idea that (as a character who was supposed to be of noble birth) that I could -for a lack of better words- have a circle in which I was the lead focus and have my followers put their power into me for something big. That's sort of what drew my attention toward the Eldritch Theurge as well... There's no circle or anything like that, but a lot of the more powerful special abilities that the PrC grants require a full round action. Flavorwise (in my head) I see that as a spellcaster who has the ability to focus/charge his abilities into something devestating.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 10:13 PM	The psionic system seems nice, but I dislike the pseudoscience terminology and renaming everything seems like so much work...Bollocks. That's a flavor-based argument; besides, we beat you to it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=470229). That thread is in my signature and in the FAQ I linked, by the way. Besides, if you dislike pseudoscience terminology... that means you dislike names like "ego whip", "id insinuation", "reddopsi", "catapsi" and so on, right? Guess what? Those are Latin and Greek. In Latin, Ego means "I, self", Id means "it", and Reddo- means "to return / give back" (you're returning the psionic power), while Cata- is Greek for "to oppose" (your opposing psionics). They're also the minority of power names -- the vast majority have names like "crystal shard" and "energy ray". If you have an issue with names like this, then god help you if you look at the Player's Handbook, what with "polymorph" and "telekinesis" (both Greek roots) in it.I sort of liked the idea that (as a character who was supposed to be of noble birth) that I could -for a lack of better words- have a circle in which I was the lead focus and have my followers put their power into me for something big.Circle magic can be done three or four different ways, and there are equivalent effects (such as the Cooperative Spell metamagic feat) that operate independent of class. There's also the Metaconcert psionic power, which is designed to do this thing on the fly (you manifest it and a bunch of willing people all donate power points; the more there are the stronger the resulting powers will be), except that Metaconcert as published is remarkably hard to follow. This was addressed in Untapped Potential (see the psionics FAQ I linked above for more information); the form that appears below is drawn from there. Before opening this box, first realize that Metaconcert is one of the longest, most complicated powers in the entire Expanded Psionics Handbook. It was also one of the most confusing, since it was poorly written in 3.0 (showing legacy errors from earlier psionics editions) and didn't get fixed in 3.5. It's a cool effect, though, which is why it was addressed in UTP.Metaconcert Telepathy [Mind-Affecting, Network] Level: Psychic warrior 5, society mind* 5, telepath 5 Display: Vi, Me; see text Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 20 ft. Effect: 20-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 9 This is not a new power; it merely replaces the metaconcert power (from Chapter Five: Powers in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) completely. You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures, creating a composite network more powerful than the sum of its parts. If there are no willing, psionic creatures in the area other than you when you use this power, it fails. When you manifest this power, up to five willing, psionic creatures in the area connect with you into a metaconcert network (a "metanetwork"), a distributed, metaphysical analogue of a psionic manifester. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of each member in a complex and shifting pattern, and a mental image of each other member appears in the minds of everyone so linked. A number of power points you designate flow from each member (including yourself) into a collective pool. If a member does not have enough power points to contribute, he drops out of the metaconcert (see below). One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other members (this is usually the manifester, but doesn’t have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the network. Members of a metaconcert can continue to take actions of their own as normal without disrupting the metanetwork, provided they stay within the area (see below). All the powers known of each member (except metaconcert) are available to the conductor through the metanetwork. While the conductor may still manifest his own powers as normal, he may instead choose to manifest a power from the metanetwork instead of from his own powers known. If he does so, he must use the power point pool of the metanetwork and may not use any of his feats or class features to modify the manifestation (although items are permitted), but he also gains numerous benefits. When manifesting a power from the metanetwork, his manifester level increases by one for each other metanetwork member (for instance, the normal maximum membership of five members besides the conductor increases the conductor's manifester level by five). If the conductor manifests a power with an XP cost from the metanetwork, the XP cost is divided evenly between all members (with the conductor taking the remainder if the cost can't be divided evenly). It is obvious to an outsider when the conductor manifests from the metanetwork, as arcs of light pulse between the various members in a scintillating pattern, streaming to the conductor as his power manifests -- this display cannot be hidden. The metanetwork also supports its members. Each member of the metanetwork gains a bonus on saving throws made against spells or powers equal to the number of other members, as the metanetwork distributes incoming magical energy about its nodes. If a spell or power would deal damage or ability damage to the conductor, he may choose to instead distribute it evenly between himself and all willing members. An individual member may decline recieving damage this way on a case-by-case basis (for example, if a metaconcert consists of the conductor and four other members, one of whom is not willing to receive damage at this time, the conductor may split the incoming damage between himself and the three willing members). Damage split this way is typeless and empathic in nature. This splitting takes place prior to the effects of other powers or abilities that lessen damage, such as energy resistance or the intellect fortress power. Spells and powers that are not subject to power resistance cannot have their damage or ability damage split this way, though the saving throw bonus still applies. Once the metanetwork forms, the members must remain within the power's area, and as a group can move at half the slowest member's speed on the conductor's turn. This counts as a move action for each member (that is, if the group moves, each member is treated as having used a move action on their next turn). If a member moves outside the area (whether willingly or involuntarily), that individual drops out of the group, and the power point pool of the metanetwork is instantly recalculated. All members who leave before a metaconcert ends or is dismissed reclaim a number of power points equal to the metanetwork's current power point pool divided by the number of members. That same number of points is removed from the metanetwork's power point pool. If the conductor drops out, the power ends. When a metaconcert ends normally or is dismissed, remaining power points in the pool are divided among all the members (the conductor receives the remainder if the points can’t be divided evenly). No creature can leave a metaconcert with more power points than they had when they entered it -- surplus points dissipate as harmless light radiating from the creature's eyes. If a society mind* manifests this power, it benefits normally from the Spirit of Many class feature, except that the additional augment has no effect (as metaconcert is an emanation, not a targeted effect). Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute. For every 2 additional power points spent this way, the maximum number of members of the metanetwork increases by one, and the range and radius of the area of effect increase by 5 ft. *A society mind is a new base class in Untapped Potential, based on the concept of psionic support and mental connections. Untapped Potential (c) 2006 Brian Dupuis, Jeremy Smith, Michel Fiallo-Perez, Greg Jacob, Will Eylea, Antony Ogden.
jaelis 05-14-07, 11:10 PM	Bollocks. That's a flavor-based argument; Did anything I said suggest it wasn't? besides, we beat you to it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=470229). That thread is in my signature and in the FAQ I linked, by the way. Yeah... what would be cool would be to compile the renamed system into a reflavored srd, so you don't have to wade through and make translations etc yourself. Not that you all have any real reason to do it, it just might help philistines like me come to appreciate the true beauty of the system.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 11:23 PM	Generally, I don't tackle it all at once. I actually tackle it on a character-by-character basis -- more accurately, a level-by-level basis. I decide on a theme, and then as I build my character I reflavor to match that theme. My current psion has an incredibly strong connection to the astral plane, for instance. She doesn't use Time Hop, she uses Astral Prison, playing with its timeless trait. She doesn't use Dimension Door, she uses Astral Bridge, which temporarily whites out the target's senses and makes them feel weightless for an instant before returning to normal, but being somewhere else. And so on, and so forth. I apologize for my tone earlier; it was unnecessary.
Johnny_Angel 05-15-07, 12:04 AM	I appreciate the input Stormwind. I agree that things can be reflavored; I've done so with spells before. Example: Instead of fireball being a "fireball," I once had a dragon-themed caster who described fireball as an illusiory red dragon appearing and breathing a ball of fire. I also mentioned the barbarian example above. Honestly, I probably don't reflavor things as much as I should. Let's get back on topic though: DMG PrC classes is the main thing I posted about, and I highly appreciate the opinions offered. If anyone has input on the other PrCs found in the DMG, I'd appreciate it if you post because I think that sometimes with all of the crazy books that are out now that people -including myself- forget about the options available in the three core books. I did look over the psionic material, and it is interesting; I'm sure I will play a psionic character at some point; I'm pretty set on playing some version of a sorceror for this character though. I'd like to get a better grasp of the psionic rules before playing a psion. I'm also pretty set on the sorcerer class being involved with my concept. Some things I had considered: sorceror/binder (ToM) sorceror/warlock (currently leading the race) Flavorwise, I imagine my character wearing some sort of golden mask...perhaps similar to the one dude from the movie Kingdom of Heaven; the reason for this would be that he's royalty and feels that only those equal of his status are worth of seeing him. The reason for this attitude was going to be based on a similar concept to how veils are worn in some of the stricter Arabic cultures. Like I said, his mother is the queen with a LE alignment, so I guess it's sort of something he would be raised with/taught. I'm going to start with a CN alignment...or LN (I have trouble describing his alignment/attitude); depending on how the effects of the campaign's story cause him to evolve, I figure that he'll either be pushed toward good and shed the veil/elitist attitude or be pushed further toward evil and take more extreme lengths to cover himself up when in public.