Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 06-07-07, 10:15 AM	1.) That "6 + Int skill points per level, x6 at 1st level" has to be a typo, right? Ain't no way they really meant that, right? 2.) If you were going to replace the Sense Magic ability with something else, what would you replace it with? (I'm actually not sure if the name's right, so to be clear, I'm referring to the ability that let's you take 10 minutes to identify the magical qualities of a suit of armor.) 3.) Has anyone ever gone with the adaptation suggestion of replacing the light armor proficiency with the Monk's unarmed strike progression? How did that work out? Furthermore, did you still have the ability to wear light armor (whether proficient with it or not) without it interfering with the AC bonus? 4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it?
Batshido 06-07-07, 10:24 AM	1. Yep that's a typo. 2. I don't know, it'd probably be campaign specific. 3. I have. You wind up with a Monk, only playable. The rules aren't terribly clear on this, so it's your call. I just drop the proficiency and say that the bonus applies out of armor, since it doesn't by RAW, and that wearing armor negates it. They didn't really work real hard to flesh out the variant class abilities. 4. I've always played it as an enhancement bonus to your effective base speed when jumping. That may or may not be right, though.
Lawkeeper 06-07-07, 10:24 AM	1.) That "6 + Int skill points per level, x6 at 1st level" has to be a typo, right? Ain't no way they really meant that, right? Indeed. I'm always wondering why they keep telling that piece of the rule for every class rather than putting it in a general chapter : "At first character level, you get four times the normal skill points". 2.) If you were going to replace the Sense Magic ability with something else, what would you replace it with? (I'm actually not sure if the name's right, so to be clear, I'm referring to the ability that let's you take 10 minutes to identify the magical qualities of a suit of armor.) It is not very useful as ability, as the party's spellcaster will more easily identify magic items than the swordsage. Giving a bonus feat would probably be too heavy-handed. Maybe err on the side of the skill tricks... 3.) Has anyone ever gone with the adaptation suggestion of replacing the light armor proficiency with the Monk's unarmed strike progression? How did that work out? Furthermore, did you still have the ability to wear light armor (whether proficient with it or not) without it interfering with the AC bonus? I wouldn't allow the AC bonus if the adaptation is done, as it only needs a one-level dip (warblade maybe) to get abusive. 4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it? No idea. I should check how it is written. If I remember correctly, it's a flat +10 bonus on the check and you get to treat all jumps as running jumps.
Iarmeister 06-07-07, 11:29 AM	1.) That "6 + Int skill points per level, x6 at 1st level" has to be a typo, right? Ain't no way they really meant that, right? As has been pointed out already: It's a typo. 2.) If you were going to replace the Sense Magic ability with something else, what would you replace it with? (I'm actually not sure if the name's right, so to be clear, I'm referring to the ability that let's you take 10 minutes to identify the magical qualities of a suit of armor.) I'm not sure what I'd replace that ability with, tbh. I actually like that ability, as it's not a guarantee that you will be traveling with a wizard. If your party only has a sorcerer the chances that he will have Identify as one of his spells known, or invested gps on a scroll for it, aren't that great. 3.) Has anyone ever gone with the adaptation suggestion of replacing the light armor proficiency with the Monk's unarmed strike progression? How did that work out? Furthermore, did you still have the ability to wear light armor (whether proficient with it or not) without it interfering with the AC bonus? Yes, I have. It's awesome! Basically, what you are getting in lieu of Light Armor proficiency is the monk's unarmed damage progression. So, be mindful that you will still need to spend a feat on IUS. That being said, however, you can still get the benefit of your Wis bonus to AC by simply donning a Mithril Shirt (LA with zero ACP). I flavor that my mithril shirt is sleeveless and worn under a sleeveless vest with the nehru collar so typical of martial artists in the movies (but that's just me). As an aside note, I've gained new-found respect for the Martial Discipline weapon magic enhancements; they're made especially for the swordsages lukewarm BAB! If you fight unarmed, see if your DM will allow you to pick up a pair of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faeurun). 4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it? Well, this maybe a DM's call, but my group simply rules that it's +10 ft to whatever your jump check is. Since you are considered running when in this stance, the final tally will be considerable. Hope this helps out some. :cool:
Drachasor 06-07-07, 01:43 PM	2.) If you were going to replace the Sense Magic ability with something else, what would you replace it with? (I'm actually not sure if the name's right, so to be clear, I'm referring to the ability that let's you take 10 minutes to identify the magical qualities of a suit of armor.) Gut Response: Detect Magic at will, can use Martial Lore in place of Spellcraft checks. (That or add Spellcraft to his list of class skills OR add knowledge(arcana) and let him substitute that, OR let him make a check that is Swordsage Initiator Level + Wisdom instead of spellcraft). 3.) Has anyone ever gone with the adaptation suggestion of replacing the light armor proficiency with the Monk's unarmed strike progression? How did that work out? Furthermore, did you still have the ability to wear light armor (whether proficient with it or not) without it interfering with the AC bonus? I would think this would be underpowered. No flurry of blows for one. Also, he suffers from a lack of magical weapons (no ki strike by default). He also has an AC hit. Lots of pain and little gain. On the plus side it does make it easier for him to get into Master of the Nine. In spirit, I think you'd have to do the following: All monk unarmed abilities save flurry. Regular monk AC bonus (so no AC bonus in armor). Call him a Fistsage. : ) Honestly, I don't actually see the Monk's unarmed progression as that big a deal. Frankly, even if you added it to the regular Swordsage as-is I don't think it changes much. 4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it? If you add the +10 feet to a jump check, you should also treat the character's base movement speed as 10 higher (as per an enhancement bonus). That way he can jump farther in one round. Honestly, it is hard to tell what they meant with this ability. -Drachasor
Salla 06-07-07, 01:50 PM	1.) That "6 + Int skill points per level, x6 at 1st level" has to be a typo, right? Ain't no way they really meant that, right? Yes, typo. 2.) If you were going to replace the Sense Magic ability with something else, what would you replace it with? (I'm actually not sure if the name's right, so to be clear, I'm referring to the ability that let's you take 10 minutes to identify the magical qualities of a suit of armor.) Probably a bonus feat selected from a list; probably stuff like Skill Focus (any Swordsage class skill) or a +2/+2 that incoporates a Swordsage class skill. 3.) Has anyone ever gone with the adaptation suggestion of replacing the light armor proficiency with the Monk's unarmed strike progression? How did that work out? Furthermore, did you still have the ability to wear light armor (whether proficient with it or not) without it interfering with the AC bonus? I would consider exchanging the light armor proficiency for Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level, and remove the 'wear light armor and still get the AC bonus' clause for Superior Unarmed Strike at whatever level Swordsages hit the +3 BAB (4th?). 4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it? This one I haven't really thought about yet.
BugHunter 06-07-07, 11:39 PM	1. No this it not a typo if it was there would have been an errata or covered in the FAQ. The high number of skill points are needed to cover all of the key skills for the disciplines they can have. If someone can provide an official source for saying this is a typo then I'll believe it otherwise I'll be using the (6 +int mod)x6 and if human +4 more skill points. 2. & 3. Haven't tried any alternative features. 4. It is a +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed which would give you a +4 to the jump check. It would also increase how far you can jump. By stating that "any jumps you make while in this stance are considered running jumps." means that the DCs for any jump is not doubled if you don't have the 20-foot running start.
Iarmeister 06-08-07, 03:36 AM	I would think this would be underpowered. No flurry of blows for one. Also, he suffers from a lack of magical weapons (no ki strike by default). He also has an AC hit. Lots of pain and little gain. On the plus side it does make it easier for him to get into Master of the Nine. Actually, the Swordsages have access to Mithril Shirts which they could wear without penalty to anything, Light Armor Proficiency or not (ACP of zero for MS'). And, actually swordsages do have access to FoB's as well as Ki Strike, they just happen to come by these abilities differently; they initiate strikes: - Wolf Fang Strike and Flashing Sun strikes = FoB's. And, at higher levels, try boosting any of these strikes with Dancing Mongoose or Raging Mongoose. Heck, boost DM or RM with Time Stands Still for Greater FoB's. - Any of the Mountain Hammer strikes = improved versions of Ki Strike. Plus, Swordsages have tons of different options available to them. For example, they even have the monk's variant: Decisive Strike: - Ruby Nightmare Blade and Diamond Nightmare Blade. As far as boosted saving throws: - Mind Over Body, and all other counter variants. Quivering Palm? Try Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, or even Feral Death Blow. And, these are useable more than once/week! The monk is still one of my favorite classes, don't get me wrong. But, the swordsage certainly does a better job at combat than a straight monk!
MerlintheTuna 06-08-07, 04:20 AM	It is not very useful as ability, as the party's spellcaster will more easily identify magic items than the swordsage.Shenanigans. The Swordsage's only works on weapons and armor, but aside from that he's clearly got the better end of the deal. Sense Magic is 10 minutes of meditation, Identify is 60 minutes of casting. Sense Magic has no material requirements aside from the item to be identified, Identify forces you to put the pearl divers' kids through college 100gp at a time. Sense Magic is a free class feature, Identify comes at the opportunity cost of not preparing (or knowing) another spell. The spellcaster will do it first, but the swordsage does it better. The only classes that do identification better are the Maester and the Dragonfire Adept, to my knowledge.
Lawkeeper 06-08-07, 04:36 AM	Cloistered clerics and any Magic-domain cleric do it better. The former get identify on his class spell list, and the latter as a 2nd level domain spells. As the pearl is an arcane material component, the divine casters are not subject to it.
Tectorman 06-09-07, 01:41 AM	Actually, I just found a very helpful thread containing a list of custserv responses. I have recently found this out: The x6 is most definitely a typo. The description of Swordsage says that the AC bonus only works in light armor (doesn't apply in no armor). That is bogus; they meant light or no armor. That I typed just in case anyone was curious. So, focusing in on just the Sense Magic ability, it is at will, 10 minutes at a time, requires a level check, is supernatural, and only works on weapons or armor. The Identify spell is a spell, has a limited number of uses per day, requires an hour, requires spell components (including one worth 100 gp), takes an hour, doesn't require a level check (as far as I know), and works on anything (except artifacts). It is a 1st-level spell. So, replacing it with an at-will 0-level spell-like ability (or spell-like ability that functions as a supernatural ability) would seem to be balanced. So which 0-level spell would you use? It shouldn't have any elements dependent on caster-level (range, duration, etc.), and it should fit in line with what a Swordsage does.
Tectorman 06-18-07, 04:06 PM	Sorry to double post, but more questions came up. 5.) A multiclass Swordsage/Warblade will have both the Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus with a group of weapons) and Weapon Aptitude (can change the subject of the benefits of certain feats). So, when using Weapon Aptitude with the Weapon Focus gained from the first Discipline Focus, do you... change the group of weapons? only change one weapon at a time? change nothing (because Weapon Aptitude says it applies to feats with only ONE weapon getting the benefit)? 6.) The bonus to Martial Lore gained by the Swordsage's Discipline Focus does or does not stack with itself if you apply the DF to the same discipline more than once (Weapon Focus with Setting Sun manuevers, Wis bonus to damage with Setting Sun strikes, bonus to saving throws in Setting Sun stances, etc.). 7.) Balance on the Sky allows you to use air walk. Air walk lets you tread on the air. So, define tread. Walk only? Walk and run? Walk, run, and you get to Jump off the air (in case of the unlikely event of you being able to Jump vertically higher than you could walk upwards)?
Tempest Stormwind 06-18-07, 04:15 PM	5.) A multiclass Swordsage/Warblade will have both the Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus with a group of weapons) and Weapon Aptitude (can change the subject of the benefits of certain feats). So, when using Weapon Aptitude with the Weapon Focus gained from the first Discipline Focus, do you... change the group of weapons? only change one weapon at a time? change nothing (because Weapon Aptitude says it applies to feats with only ONE weapon getting the benefit)?That last one. Weapon Aptitude says: "You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus)." A similar trick explains why you can't change Lightning Mace (if you confirm a critical hit with a light mace, get an extra attack) to something like, say, the kukri. Discipline Focus isn't a feat that chooses a weapon, and neither is Lightning Mace. Both autoselect what it applies to.6.) The bonus to Martial Lore gained by the Swordsage's Discipline Focus does or does not stack with itself if you apply the DF to the same discipline more than once (Weapon Focus with Setting Sun manuevers, Wis bonus to damage with Setting Sun strikes, bonus to saving throws in Setting Sun stances, etc.).It doesn't. You gain a bonus on martial lore checks "in each discipline that he has discipline focus" (or something like that). Thus, it doesn't matter how many times you focus on a particular discipline; it's binary (You have discipline focus in one discipline, you get the bonus once.)7.) Balance on the Sky allows you to use air walk. Air walk lets you tread on the air. So, define tread. Walk only? Walk and run? Walk, run, and you get to Jump off the air (in case of the unlikely event of you being able to Jump vertically higher than you could walk upwards)?It uses air walk. I can't access my SRD mirrors from work, but I do have the link. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm From what I remember, Air Walk lets you move on air as if it were ground.
Lawkeeper 06-19-07, 08:39 AM	It uses air walk. I can't access my SRD mirrors from work, but I do have the link. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm From what I remember, Air Walk lets you move on air as if it were ground. I have access to it, and that's exactly what it does. "As if" on the ground. This includes walking up or down at half-speed, and running, standing still, etc. I'd bet you could even jump, for that matter... For a bit of Forgotten Grimoire on it, by the way : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070515a
Tectorman 06-30-07, 02:18 AM	So ya'll are saying that tread on the ground refers to any method of pushing against the ground, such as walking, running, and jumping. What about crawling (so that you can be prone and gain the bonus to AC against ranged attacks)? Also, I looked through my PHB and came up with a list of spells, spell effects, etc. to replace the Sense Magic ability with. Here's what I came up with: Detect Magic (in the exact same fashion as the Warlock's ability) Both Expeditious Retreat and Longstrider are 1st-level spells, but their effects do make certain maneuvers (like Wind Stride) redundant. Since the Swordsage is supposed to be the Monk as he should have been, I thought that Feather Fall or Comprehend Languages would be good replacements (CL does some of what the Tongue of S&M would do and FF would replace the Slow Fall ability). But what really caught my eye was the Guidance spell. It's a 0-level divination spell that provides a +1 typed bonus to an attack, save, or skill check. So I came up with this: Path of the Way (Su): Beginning at 7th level, you learn to (hone your pursuit of perfection; draw upon your devotion to the study of the Sublime Way; insert otherwise suitable flavor text here). You can take a swift action to gain the benefit of the Guidance spell (in the case of skill checks, this may only be applied to a use of a skill that takes less than a full-round action). Making it a swift action makes it a little more powerful and thus able to replace a 1st-level spell. It also takes on the role of a boost (and prevents you from using one, too). So how about that?
Lawkeeper 07-02-07, 03:18 AM	So ya'll are saying that tread on the ground refers to any method of pushing against the ground, such as walking, running, and jumping. What about crawling (so that you can be prone and gain the bonus to AC against ranged attacks)? Yeah, why not crawling ? No problem there, at first, except one point I'll tell about later. For the prone bonus to AC, I guess it'd depend on the circumstances. The bonus comes from two facts that help prone creatures not to be hit by ranged weapons : 1°) they present a smaller target 2°) they essentially benefit from a "cover" on half their body (attacks wouldn't come through the soil) The first fact is an issue if you lie prone on the air above the foe. It does no good to your target size, on the contrary : above a 45° angle, it actually increases your effective size (targetting-wise). The second is the same issue : you get no protection whatever from the air you're standing (or crouching) on, arrows could hit you from below. Please note that this is an interpretation by logic : by RAW, prone condition only requires that you be "on the ground", and if air walk lets you treat air as equal to ground (as mentionned in the Grimoire article I referred to earlier, where "as if on the ground" is deemed to be the key point), it's fine. However, air walk's text is the following : "The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground", emphasis's mine. I first didn't see the "walking" bit. The spell so explicitly refers to walking, in addition to "as if on the ground". Walking is no simple word : in the rules, "walk" refers to the nomal movement, as opposed to hustle or run, in the modes of movement's part of the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#modesofMovement). It further says "A walk represents unhurried but purposeful movement at 3 miles per hour for an unencumbered human". A walk is not a hustle, nor a run, nor any kind of special movement (like charge, crawling, etc). A walk is essentially a move action, simple and pure. So, by RAW it seems logical that you can't run, hustle (take a double move), crawl, charge, etc, while using air walk. It seems logical from game design too : compared to fly, air walk lasts ten times longer, hence being available a spell level later. However, fly is superior to air walk in two matters : first, it gives a fly speed of 60ft (better than most PC races), second it's more handy (double move and charge are possible). Compare two 7th-level casters : one casts air walk, the other casts an extended fly spell. Both have a base 30ft speed. The air walker will move 30ft/round (walk = single move) for 70 minutes : 21000 ft total. The flyer will move 120ft (double move, hustle) for 14 minutes : 16800 ft total. Respectively, circa four and three miles. So, one has the advantage of walking another mile, while the other has both the flexibility in tactical encounters and the speed to evade pursuers ; IMO, the latter are giving fly a better ability than air walk. So, I wouldn't object to consider air walk to allow all kind of movements, while it has not been stated anywhere whether it effectively limited one to simple moves or not (and as the only official WotC statement on this website is that "on the ground" is the key phrase).
InkBlot 07-02-07, 03:57 AM	4.) The Leaping Dragon Stance in the Tiger Claw discipline lists a "+10 foot enhancement bonus" for the purpose of making Jump checks. Is that really a +10 bonus to all (horizontal or vertical) Jump checks? Is it supposed to treat your base land speed as 10 feet faster solely for the purpose of making a Jump check? Does it automatically add 10 feet to whatever Jump distance (horizontal or vertical) you roll? Which is it? The word "foot" was a typo. It's a +10 enhancement bonus to your Jump checks. Roll 1d20 + your Str + your ranks in Jump + 10. It's just like a Ring Of Jumping +10. I swear I heard this from an official source, but I can't remember at 3:58 AM.
Tectorman 07-05-07, 01:38 PM	The word "foot" was a typo. It's a +10 enhancement bonus to your Jump checks. Roll 1d20 + your Str + your ranks in Jump + 10. It's just like a Ring Of Jumping +10. I swear I heard this from an official source, but I can't remember at 3:58 AM. Can you give me an official source now? 'Cause I was beginning to make sense of arbitrarily adding ten feet, no matter what the Jump. Think any of those old action games: Vectorman, X-Men 2: Clone Wars, Metroid. They jump and then double jump. Since ToB was inspired by video games, it makes sense to think of it that way.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 01:48 PM	Can you give me an official source now? 'Cause I was beginning to make sense of arbitrarily adding ten feet, no matter what the Jump. Think any of those old action games: Vectorman, X-Men 2: Clone Wars, Metroid. They jump and then double jump. Since ToB was inspired by video games, it makes sense to think of it that way. You want a double jump? Read Sudden Leap. Note how it doesn't say you jump, it says you make a jump check and then instantly move that distance. Thus, I high-jump about 10 feet in the air, and initiate Sudden Leap. I make my Jump check and move another 30 feet due to the maneuver. THEN I land. Oh, and as a Samus fanboy, I have to correct you: Samus gained a double-jump first in Metroid Prime, unless you count the Smash Brothers midair leap. It was the Space Jump before that (first in Metroid II: The Return of Samus), which is strictly superior to a double jump (as it's an infinite midair flip, although you had to be flipping to use it), and a wall jump (Super Metroid and Metroid: Zero Mission; it's in Metroid Fusion as well but you couldn't use it the same way) to let you go arbitrarily high even without the space jump if you were skilled. If you call Metroid Prime "old", then I'll start feeling *really* ancient.
InkBlot 07-06-07, 02:17 AM	Wild Leap, a psionic power from the official Dark Sun 3.5 update (http://athas.org/), is specifically a double jump. If you want Samus's Space Jump, you just have to find a way to make your jump modifier greater than your double move speed. That way you remain in the air long enough to keep manifesting Wild Leap with your swift action every round. This is difficult because speed boosts are the greatest source for Jump bonuses in D&D, and because the Mighty Spring (the best psionic Jump buff) also take a swift action to manifest. A Thri-Kreen's +30 racial bonus to Jump helps a lot, but with their 40 foot speed you need another +50. The Jump spell (a 1st level spell for their favored class, Ranger) gives a +30 at caster level 9. Give 'em Practiced Spellcaster to get there by 10th level instead of 18th. Just +20 left now. With one Wilder level for Wild Leap, this guy has 13 hit dice and can max out Jump to +15, plus his speed bonus of +4, plus his Strength modifier of +5 (easily attainable). ECL 15 and he can do the Space Jump for as many rounds as he has power points. Or you could just play a human and make a custom magic item that gives you a big bonus to jump. Can you give me an official source now? It's 2:18 am. I've really got to stop reading the boards this late. Anyway, if the source is anywhere it's probably going to be in the Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775)
danielinthewolvesden 07-06-07, 03:16 AM	Indeed. I'm always wondering why they keep telling that piece of the rule for every class rather than putting it in a general chapter : "At first character level, you get four times the normal skill points". Yes, this is very annoying, they do it for filler. All they have to do is cut&paste and viola, 10 more pages.:rolleyes:
InkBlot 07-06-07, 11:08 AM	The amount of extra space required to slap that sentance onto each class in a book doesn't even take up one extra page, let alone 10. And in the new class description format, it isn't even a whole sentance anymore. It's not filler. It's just silly. You want to see filler? Look at Complete Psionic's racial feats, mindblade shape feats, and psionic items.
danielinthewolvesden 07-06-07, 03:47 PM	The amount of extra space required to slap that sentance onto each class in a book doesn't even take up one extra page, let alone 10. It's not just that one line, there are dozens of filler lines, such as the one for armour check penalties, etc.