a few variant sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

a few variant sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melodramatic_person
06-23-07, 12:59 PM Hi I'm new to this forum and I decided to post a few variant sorcerer ideas and want to hear your thoughts

I wrote some different sorcerers they don’t necessarily replace normal sorcerers.

Adventure suited sorcerer
Class skills: as normal sorcerer + listen (wis), knowledge (geography) (int), knowledge (dungeoneering) (int), survival (wis), use rope (dex), jump (str), climb (str).
Skills per level and at first level (at first level its x4): 4+int.
At the 10th level she gains endurance or improved familiar as a bonus feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites.
Hit die: d6.
To determent familiar abilities use only half the sorcerer's level (rounded down).

Social Sorcerer
Class skills: as normal sorcerer+ apprise (int), diplomacy (cha), disguise (cha), gather information (cha), knowledge (local) (int), sense motive (wis).
Skills per level and at first level (at first level its x4): 4+int.
At the 10th level she gains silent spell feat as a bonus feat.
To determent familiar abilities do not add every third level.

Battle suited sorcerer
Weapon and armor: she is proficient with light armor (at 8th level) and material weapons.
Armored caster (light): at the 8th level she gains the ability to cast spells while in armor.
At 10th level she gains combat casting as a bonus feat.
To determent familiar abilities use only half the sorcerer's level (rounded down).

Favored spells sorcerer
Each level she can choose a spell called a favored spell. This spells once a day automatically get enhanced with a metamagic feat without changing the spells slot cost. This ability can be used an extra time a day every 4 levels.
To determent familiar abilities do not add every third level.

Note, I didn't read unheard arcana
Shadowfax7
06-23-07, 01:25 PM Uhmmm . . . all you are doing is adding things to the PHB Sorcerer and removing practically nothing. Why wouldn't someone choose a variant over the PHB Sorcerer ?

Reducing the familiar's powers does nothing, but make a familiar useless. Thus a Sorcerer just doesn't choose to summon a familiar and still gains all the add'l things from the variants.
Melodramatic_person
06-23-07, 02:21 PM If that is the situation then the sorcerer and wizards' only abilities are spellcasting and I just thought that would be silly. It looks like the familiar is worth something but maybe your right
So how should I decrease the sorcerer to get the abilities in the variant
Luinnar
06-23-07, 03:24 PM So how should I decrease the sorcerer to get the abilities in the variant
If anything Sorcerers need a boost. The don't get metamagic feats AND the gain spells one level slower AND they take a full round action for metamagic. Seems like too many penalties ready ;)
LoneFlame
06-23-07, 05:41 PM Yeah. The Sorcerer is pretty weak(not quite Shugenja, but pretty freakin' close) and could stand to have a slight boost(even if only a raise in hit dice to a d6 instead of a d4)

A variant in PHP2 lets you do some metamagic a few times a day without increasing casting time(this means Quicken Spell is do-able). It costs you your Familiar(which the standard familiars suck anyway, so it's not a big loss).

Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana raises your Hit Dice to a d8, increases your Base Attack to Mid-range(rather than crappy), swaps out a skill for another skill, gives your a weapon and armor proficiency(complete with ability to cast in said armor). The trade off on that is in Spells Per Day and Spells Known.

Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage gives you a weapon proficiency(complete with Weapon focus) and 2 extra hit points a lv. The price on that one is a small loss on the Spells Known department.

Now, your ideas, while interesting, are a tad broken(especially compared to existing variants, some of the better ones I've just mentioned). Since the Sorcerer has next to no class features, just about the only thing you can do is lower spells per day and/or spells known to pay for any variants that you come up with. That really sucks, I know, but it can't be helped.
Shadowfax7
06-24-07, 10:55 AM Melodramatic . . . there are Sorcerer variant abilities which replace the familiar in various books. You could offer that to your player(s).

Discussions on the Sorcerer as a strong or weak class are not part of my response. The question was not about that and such discussions end up with good points on either side.

My comment on reducing the effectiveness of the familiar as making it useless is based on the fact that reducing their progression of abilities in comparison to the master's leveling, would render a familiar not able to keep up with the adventures the master takes it on, thus it is like not having one. In fact it would become a greater liability than it can already be.
Crimson_Concerto
06-24-07, 12:18 PM If anything Sorcerers need a boost. The don't get metamagic feats AND the gain spells one level slower AND they take a full round action for metamagic. Seems like too many penalties ready ;)No, no, no! This is just all kinds of wrong. I say this in every sorcerer variant thread, and I'll continue to say it until people understand it:

Sorcerers are not underpowered. In fact, they're one of the more powerful classes out there, generally rated 4th most powerful in core and not too much lower than that outside.

Sorcerers do NOT need a boost. They have design flaws, yes, but their power is not one of them, and there's absolutely no reason to make sorcerers more powerful than they actually are. If you're going to give them something new, remember to take something away.

Now, onto critique on the variants:

For the Adventure suited sorcerer, all it's giving up is half familiar progression, which is not nearly enough to justify so many things. Even if you gave up the familiar entirely, you'd still be giving them too much.

For the Social Sorcerer, I could see giving up the familiar alltogether for that, I think, but losing 1/3 familiar progression isn't enough.

There are better variants similiar to your Battle suited sorcerer out there, particularly the one in Unearthed Arcana.

I don't even fully understand what the Favored spells sorcerer is intended to do, but you definitely need a limit to it, since it seems to allow you to cast spells of higher level than you should know.
deviknyte
06-24-07, 01:41 PM Ok, there is no rogue+sorcerer, but there is no rogue or dex+divine spell caster base class either or rogue+wizard base and I . Social sorcerer is beguiler until they make a d6hd sorcerer who focuses on enchantments (beguiler = illusionist to me). There is a battle sorcerer in the UA. A wu jen type sorcerer not yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melodramatic_person 06-23-07, 12:59 PM	Hi I'm new to this forum and I decided to post a few variant sorcerer ideas and want to hear your thoughts I wrote some different sorcerers they don’t necessarily replace normal sorcerers. Adventure suited sorcerer Class skills: as normal sorcerer + listen (wis), knowledge (geography) (int), knowledge (dungeoneering) (int), survival (wis), use rope (dex), jump (str), climb (str). Skills per level and at first level (at first level its x4): 4+int. At the 10th level she gains endurance or improved familiar as a bonus feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Hit die: d6. To determent familiar abilities use only half the sorcerer's level (rounded down). Social Sorcerer Class skills: as normal sorcerer+ apprise (int), diplomacy (cha), disguise (cha), gather information (cha), knowledge (local) (int), sense motive (wis). Skills per level and at first level (at first level its x4): 4+int. At the 10th level she gains silent spell feat as a bonus feat. To determent familiar abilities do not add every third level. Battle suited sorcerer Weapon and armor: she is proficient with light armor (at 8th level) and material weapons. Armored caster (light): at the 8th level she gains the ability to cast spells while in armor. At 10th level she gains combat casting as a bonus feat. To determent familiar abilities use only half the sorcerer's level (rounded down). Favored spells sorcerer Each level she can choose a spell called a favored spell. This spells once a day automatically get enhanced with a metamagic feat without changing the spells slot cost. This ability can be used an extra time a day every 4 levels. To determent familiar abilities do not add every third level. Note, I didn't read unheard arcana
Shadowfax7 06-23-07, 01:25 PM	Uhmmm . . . all you are doing is adding things to the PHB Sorcerer and removing practically nothing. Why wouldn't someone choose a variant over the PHB Sorcerer ? Reducing the familiar's powers does nothing, but make a familiar useless. Thus a Sorcerer just doesn't choose to summon a familiar and still gains all the add'l things from the variants.
Melodramatic_person 06-23-07, 02:21 PM	If that is the situation then the sorcerer and wizards' only abilities are spellcasting and I just thought that would be silly. It looks like the familiar is worth something but maybe your right So how should I decrease the sorcerer to get the abilities in the variant
Luinnar 06-23-07, 03:24 PM	So how should I decrease the sorcerer to get the abilities in the variant If anything Sorcerers need a boost. The don't get metamagic feats AND the gain spells one level slower AND they take a full round action for metamagic. Seems like too many penalties ready ;)
LoneFlame 06-23-07, 05:41 PM	Yeah. The Sorcerer is pretty weak(not quite Shugenja, but pretty freakin' close) and could stand to have a slight boost(even if only a raise in hit dice to a d6 instead of a d4) A variant in PHP2 lets you do some metamagic a few times a day without increasing casting time(this means Quicken Spell is do-able). It costs you your Familiar(which the standard familiars suck anyway, so it's not a big loss). Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana raises your Hit Dice to a d8, increases your Base Attack to Mid-range(rather than crappy), swaps out a skill for another skill, gives your a weapon and armor proficiency(complete with ability to cast in said armor). The trade off on that is in Spells Per Day and Spells Known. Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage gives you a weapon proficiency(complete with Weapon focus) and 2 extra hit points a lv. The price on that one is a small loss on the Spells Known department. Now, your ideas, while interesting, are a tad broken(especially compared to existing variants, some of the better ones I've just mentioned). Since the Sorcerer has next to no class features, just about the only thing you can do is lower spells per day and/or spells known to pay for any variants that you come up with. That really sucks, I know, but it can't be helped.
Shadowfax7 06-24-07, 10:55 AM	Melodramatic . . . there are Sorcerer variant abilities which replace the familiar in various books. You could offer that to your player(s). Discussions on the Sorcerer as a strong or weak class are not part of my response. The question was not about that and such discussions end up with good points on either side. My comment on reducing the effectiveness of the familiar as making it useless is based on the fact that reducing their progression of abilities in comparison to the master's leveling, would render a familiar not able to keep up with the adventures the master takes it on, thus it is like not having one. In fact it would become a greater liability than it can already be.
Crimson_Concerto 06-24-07, 12:18 PM	If anything Sorcerers need a boost. The don't get metamagic feats AND the gain spells one level slower AND they take a full round action for metamagic. Seems like too many penalties ready ;)No, no, no! This is just all kinds of wrong. I say this in every sorcerer variant thread, and I'll continue to say it until people understand it: Sorcerers are not underpowered. In fact, they're one of the more powerful classes out there, generally rated 4th most powerful in core and not too much lower than that outside. Sorcerers do NOT need a boost. They have design flaws, yes, but their power is not one of them, and there's absolutely no reason to make sorcerers more powerful than they actually are. If you're going to give them something new, remember to take something away. Now, onto critique on the variants: For the Adventure suited sorcerer, all it's giving up is half familiar progression, which is not nearly enough to justify so many things. Even if you gave up the familiar entirely, you'd still be giving them too much. For the Social Sorcerer, I could see giving up the familiar alltogether for that, I think, but losing 1/3 familiar progression isn't enough. There are better variants similiar to your Battle suited sorcerer out there, particularly the one in Unearthed Arcana. I don't even fully understand what the Favored spells sorcerer is intended to do, but you definitely need a limit to it, since it seems to allow you to cast spells of higher level than you should know.
deviknyte 06-24-07, 01:41 PM	Ok, there is no rogue+sorcerer, but there is no rogue or dex+divine spell caster base class either or rogue+wizard base and I . Social sorcerer is beguiler until they make a d6hd sorcerer who focuses on enchantments (beguiler = illusionist to me). There is a battle sorcerer in the UA. A wu jen type sorcerer not yet.