A few whirling frenzy questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few whirling frenzy questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maxxim
05-16-07, 08:13 AM Just a couple things I'm not clear on:

1. Does the extra attack from WF stack with haste?

2. Do you get the extra attack when you move during a turn, or is it only for a full action? (the description doesn't say "as part of a full attack action")

Also, any opinions on WF vs. standard rage?
goawayugh
05-16-07, 10:29 AM I forgot exactly what book WF is in, if you tell me, I'll look it up.

As for it stacking with haste...(without reading the ability) I would say no. Acording to haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), it doesn't stack with similar effects that grant extra attacks.
ruff0126
05-16-07, 10:40 AM I do thing it stacks with haste. Haste gives you an extra attack with no penalty. The extra attack from whirling gives you a -2 penalty on all attacks that round, I think, just like rapid shot and I belive rapid shot stacks with haste. As for #2 you only get more than one attack when you full attack unless you have an ability thet specifically says otherwise.
Evicmar
05-16-07, 10:46 AM Both haste and whirling frenzy state that they do not stack with similar bonuses. However, if a wizard is going to haste you, go ahead and take it. You do not take the -2 to hit for the two attacks.
Gray Mouser
05-16-07, 12:15 PM Whriling Frenzy and Haste do not give you two extra attacks in a round, only one. If you are a WF barbarian who has been hasted, you shoud (as the above poster suggested) take the Haste one.
I allowed a barbarian in my campaign to do the WF variant and have regretted it ever since. I have since stated that he will be the last WF barb I permit! The extra attack plus AC bonus is too rich for my taste. The loss of the extra Con is easily offset by 1)d12 hit die and 2) the fact that most barbs put their second best stat in Con. I'm very permissive about variants, I allow most everything else in UA and PHBII, CM, etc. But this is one bridge I wish I hadn't crossed.
goawayugh
05-16-07, 12:18 PM That's why I couldn't remember what book it is from.....I hate barbarians.
Maxxim
05-16-07, 12:48 PM As to stacking with haste, I'm leaning towards arguing that it would stack.

As someone said above, WF gives an extra attack, but all attacks are at a -2. Haste gives an extra attack at the highest attack bonus, so we have different things being applied to the PC here.

IIRC, flurry of blows stacks with haste, right? That would seem very similar to me, and would add to this argument. If I'm wrong about flurry though, please correct me.
Evicmar
05-16-07, 12:59 PM If you read haste it states that you do not gain the extra attack if you get one from a similar source. Whirling fenzy, rapid shot, and flurry of blows all are similar sources. Monks have never greatly benefited from haste other than to remove the -2 penalty at low levels. Keep in mind that it's up to the player to choose which source to gain the extra attack from. Haste is the better source.
Gray Mouser
05-16-07, 01:17 PM Evicmar, you're just too quick for me. I just went back and reread the WF variant, flurry of blows, and haste; also checked the FAQ, no help there. Neither flurry or WF variant say anything about not stacking, however, as Evicmar points out Haste says it does not stack with extra attacks granted from "similar" sources. I guess I interpret that as any source that would give you an extra attack, not just sources that give extra attacks in exactly the same way mechanically. As I mentioned above, I feel the WF variant is a little over-the-top already without giving them the possibility of even more attacks.
Maxxim
05-16-07, 01:43 PM Well, the debate is somewhat moot for my original reasons at least. I've been talking about it with my DM, not pushing either side, but just giving him the arguments here and from others in my group.

After he read the various pieces of text, he ruled:

1. WF gives the extra attack on all attacks, not just full round attacks.

and

2. WF stacks with haste, as does flurry of blows.

So now, reading the obviously negative opinions of some here, I need to decide whether to even take WF. I like being effective in combat, but I hate being the guy who just overwhelms everyone else in the group during combat.
Chimaera2000
05-16-07, 10:32 PM Just to clear up any confusion, here's the exact text for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhir lingFrenzy):

A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

There's nothing in there that states that the extra attack can't stack with haste. I believe that ruff0126's analogy with Rapid Shot is the best one; you gain an extra attack, but all your attacks suffer a -2 penalty. When you consider that Flurry also functions the same way (initially, at least) and both of these options would stack with haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), I'd say that the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy would also stack.

All in all, I'd take Whirling Frenzy over rage; +2 AC, +2 Ref, an extra attack and Evasion instead of +2 Fort, +2 HP/level, +2 Will, two extra rounds of Rage, +4 on Enchantments and a -2 penalty to AC. They're fairly well-balanced to one another, IMO, but I know which one that I'd pick most of the time. Endurance and Steadfast Determination from PHB II might swing it the other way for me, though.
Vaelan
05-16-07, 10:49 PM It seems to me that haste's limitation only comes into play when the feature it might stack with also says that it won't stack with similar effects.

If you say that Haste doesn't stack with anything that grants additional attacks, think about who you're really hurting. Monks? Hardly the best damage dealers. TWFers? They don't need to be nerfed even further. Whirling Frenzy Barbarians? Debatable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maxxim 05-16-07, 08:13 AM	Just a couple things I'm not clear on: 1. Does the extra attack from WF stack with haste? 2. Do you get the extra attack when you move during a turn, or is it only for a full action? (the description doesn't say "as part of a full attack action") Also, any opinions on WF vs. standard rage?
goawayugh 05-16-07, 10:29 AM	I forgot exactly what book WF is in, if you tell me, I'll look it up. As for it stacking with haste...(without reading the ability) I would say no. Acording to haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), it doesn't stack with similar effects that grant extra attacks.
ruff0126 05-16-07, 10:40 AM	I do thing it stacks with haste. Haste gives you an extra attack with no penalty. The extra attack from whirling gives you a -2 penalty on all attacks that round, I think, just like rapid shot and I belive rapid shot stacks with haste. As for #2 you only get more than one attack when you full attack unless you have an ability thet specifically says otherwise.
Evicmar 05-16-07, 10:46 AM	Both haste and whirling frenzy state that they do not stack with similar bonuses. However, if a wizard is going to haste you, go ahead and take it. You do not take the -2 to hit for the two attacks.
Gray Mouser 05-16-07, 12:15 PM	Whriling Frenzy and Haste do not give you two extra attacks in a round, only one. If you are a WF barbarian who has been hasted, you shoud (as the above poster suggested) take the Haste one. I allowed a barbarian in my campaign to do the WF variant and have regretted it ever since. I have since stated that he will be the last WF barb I permit! The extra attack plus AC bonus is too rich for my taste. The loss of the extra Con is easily offset by 1)d12 hit die and 2) the fact that most barbs put their second best stat in Con. I'm very permissive about variants, I allow most everything else in UA and PHBII, CM, etc. But this is one bridge I wish I hadn't crossed.
goawayugh 05-16-07, 12:18 PM	That's why I couldn't remember what book it is from.....I hate barbarians.
Maxxim 05-16-07, 12:48 PM	As to stacking with haste, I'm leaning towards arguing that it would stack. As someone said above, WF gives an extra attack, but all attacks are at a -2. Haste gives an extra attack at the highest attack bonus, so we have different things being applied to the PC here. IIRC, flurry of blows stacks with haste, right? That would seem very similar to me, and would add to this argument. If I'm wrong about flurry though, please correct me.
Evicmar 05-16-07, 12:59 PM	If you read haste it states that you do not gain the extra attack if you get one from a similar source. Whirling fenzy, rapid shot, and flurry of blows all are similar sources. Monks have never greatly benefited from haste other than to remove the -2 penalty at low levels. Keep in mind that it's up to the player to choose which source to gain the extra attack from. Haste is the better source.
Gray Mouser 05-16-07, 01:17 PM	Evicmar, you're just too quick for me. I just went back and reread the WF variant, flurry of blows, and haste; also checked the FAQ, no help there. Neither flurry or WF variant say anything about not stacking, however, as Evicmar points out Haste says it does not stack with extra attacks granted from "similar" sources. I guess I interpret that as any source that would give you an extra attack, not just sources that give extra attacks in exactly the same way mechanically. As I mentioned above, I feel the WF variant is a little over-the-top already without giving them the possibility of even more attacks.
Maxxim 05-16-07, 01:43 PM	Well, the debate is somewhat moot for my original reasons at least. I've been talking about it with my DM, not pushing either side, but just giving him the arguments here and from others in my group. After he read the various pieces of text, he ruled: 1. WF gives the extra attack on all attacks, not just full round attacks. and 2. WF stacks with haste, as does flurry of blows. So now, reading the obviously negative opinions of some here, I need to decide whether to even take WF. I like being effective in combat, but I hate being the guy who just overwhelms everyone else in the group during combat.
Chimaera2000 05-16-07, 10:32 PM	Just to clear up any confusion, here's the exact text for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhir lingFrenzy): A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4. A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy. A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability). There's nothing in there that states that the extra attack can't stack with haste. I believe that ruff0126's analogy with Rapid Shot is the best one; you gain an extra attack, but all your attacks suffer a -2 penalty. When you consider that Flurry also functions the same way (initially, at least) and both of these options would stack with haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), I'd say that the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy would also stack. All in all, I'd take Whirling Frenzy over rage; +2 AC, +2 Ref, an extra attack and Evasion instead of +2 Fort, +2 HP/level, +2 Will, two extra rounds of Rage, +4 on Enchantments and a -2 penalty to AC. They're fairly well-balanced to one another, IMO, but I know which one that I'd pick most of the time. Endurance and Steadfast Determination from PHB II might swing it the other way for me, though.
Vaelan 05-16-07, 10:49 PM	It seems to me that haste's limitation only comes into play when the feature it might stack with also says that it won't stack with similar effects. If you say that Haste doesn't stack with anything that grants additional attacks, think about who you're really hurting. Monks? Hardly the best damage dealers. TWFers? They don't need to be nerfed even further. Whirling Frenzy Barbarians? Debatable.