Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flay Crimsonwind 12-05-05, 11:49 PM	Hey, I was wondering if there was a class anyone new of that gave the increased unarmed damage, but doesn't require the character to be lawful. Anyone know where I might find one?
Banebringer 12-05-05, 11:52 PM	You're going to be hard pressed to find any race able to do that, I have also been frustrated at the lack of chaotic brawlers in D&D...
Flay Crimsonwind 12-05-05, 11:54 PM	damn............ looks like I've got a new project.......
The Vorpal Tribble 12-06-05, 12:24 AM	What about the Reaping Mauler? Get your hands on an opponent and its probably curtains for 'em.
Flay Crimsonwind 12-06-05, 12:25 AM	I've only ever heard of the Reaping Mauler. What book is it in? And what does it do? (sounds like a dumb question)
Rabid Dire Wolverine 12-06-05, 12:50 AM	Basically, it's a super-grappler. It's in complete warrior. And you might wanna pick up that Dragon magazine with the chaos monk.
Flay Crimsonwind 12-06-05, 12:56 AM	And you might wanna pick up that Dragon magazine with the chaos monk.I heard that it sucked.....
DarknessEternal 12-06-05, 01:14 AM	Shou Disciple in Unapproachable East.
Alchahest 12-06-05, 05:37 AM	I liked the chaos monk variant, it evoked the imagry of Jet Li in Unleashed. and makes a barbarian/monk viable.
Snicker 12-06-05, 08:52 AM	Complete Warrior has a pile of feats that work with the stunning fist attack, which does not require monk levels. It also has a few other unarmed, non-monk feats. A fighter could possibly grab at those feats. You're still probably going to be weak, though.
tiluvias99 12-06-05, 09:11 AM	There are dozens made by people around the boards. You could try out the fist-fighter that I made. You can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=512489). You could look at some of the class posted in the KNOCK-OUT Competition. You can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=510435). -----which, by the way, just needs one more judge for it to be finished... any volunteers?------ If those don't have what your looking for, then I suggest trying the Core Class Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197561) and the Second Core Class Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=519526).
Sephiroth Do'Urden 12-06-05, 09:32 AM	My favorite Unarmed core class is the Matrial artist from Beyond Monks from Chainmail bikini games Ltd.
heretic888 12-06-05, 12:48 PM	Y'know, if worse comes to worse.... You could just play a non-lawful human Fighter with the appropriate feat selection. I'm specifically thinking of feats like Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Roundabout Kick, Flying Kick, Weapon Finesse, and so on. And, most of that's just the stuff in the Player's Handbook! Your high BAB coupled with a clever use of Power Attack and Combat Expertise will make up for any loss in damage or AC. You can offset the loss in accuracy with Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. If your character is agile, you can help accuracy even moreso with Weapon Finesse. Hell, if you wanted, you could even go with the TWF route. A high BAB, Weapon Finesse, and the Weapon Focus chain would go a long way in benefitting such a build with your Fighter. If you feel the need for elemental enchantments or enchancement bonuses, you can equip your character with a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. Of course, you won't be able to benefit from Power Attack anymore, but you'll be able to benefit from a +5 damage enchantment. A human Fighter would get 3 feats at 1st level, plus an additional 16 feats throughout the next 19 levels. You'll have plenty of chances to build up your martial artsy brawler character with all sorts of tricks and feat chains related to unarmed combat. You could even pick up the Empty Hand Mastery from Oriental Adventures, effectively gaining a toned-down version of the Monk's unarmed damage in addition to your Fighter bonus feats of awesomeness. The tools are already out there. You just have to think of creative ways to implement them. Laterz.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 12-06-05, 01:14 PM	This tactic becomes even more effective if you play a warforged fighter with battle gauntlets. I played one once, Killing about 19 hobgoblins alone at level 5 :D
klode_me 12-06-05, 02:23 PM	I heard that it sucked..... It doesn't. check it out yourself: Classes and class variants (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf)
DarknessEternal 12-06-05, 02:25 PM	To reiterate what heretic888 said, a Fighter using only feats and equipment found in the PHB/DMG will outdamage a Monk unarmed. The math and character builds have been done. When you add other sources (Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Unapproachable East, etc), the Fighter blows the Monk clear out of the water in unarmed fighting. It isn't even a contest anymore, just the Fighter wiping his butt with a Monk.
Sledged 12-06-05, 03:12 PM	To answer the original question, there's the Sacred Fist in the CD, the Initial of the Draconic Mysteries in the Draco, and there's the Drunken Master in the CW (technically this adds to your unarmed damage when using improvised weapons instead making unarmed strikes).
Thurbane 12-06-05, 06:34 PM	This might sound a bit lame, but why not just a fighter or barbarian who takes Improved Unarmed Strike? The fighter could even specialize in it. Edit: heretic888 gets the point accross far better than I have. See above. ;)
Goreg Skullcrusher 12-06-05, 07:09 PM	Like others have mentioned, play a Fighter and pick up the Monk's Belt. Now your Unarmed Strike is on par with Longsword damage. Add in all the other feat-goodness of the Fighter and you blow the Monk out of the water in combat.
Surreal 12-06-05, 10:16 PM	Frostrager (from Frostburn) adds cold damage to your unarmed attacks. If you could gain alternate forms or the shapechanger subtype somehow (lycanthrope is a perennial favourite), then a level of Warshaper works. Any ability/spell that increases your size is also good. Lastly, just take the feat Improved Natural Attack.
Mystic Mouse 12-06-05, 11:48 PM	I really like the idea of the pure fighter with all of those feats. It gets rid of the "mystic" abilities that a lot of people point out with the monk, that make the monk seem "not so dnd", compared to the other base classes. I think I am going to have to put one of these guys together; a real bare-handed scrapper, with more tricks than a barrel of ninjas (well, monks anyway).
bossloki 12-07-05, 05:22 AM	Originally posted by heretic888: you can equip your character with a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. Of course, you won't be able to benefit from Power Attack anymore, That's not quite true. From the SRD: Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Gauntlet, Spiked: Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. There's room for interpretation (as always), but if it's treated as an unarmed attack then you can power attack with them.
nnnnn 12-07-05, 04:53 PM	To reiterate what heretic888 said, a Fighter using only feats and equipment found in the PHB/DMG will outdamage a Monk unarmed. The math and character builds have been done. When you add other sources (Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Unapproachable East, etc), the Fighter blows the Monk clear out of the water in unarmed fighting. It isn't even a contest anymore, just the Fighter wiping his butt with a Monk. I'm not convinced of this. Remember that the Monk has loads of mystical abilities that help him out vs. the fighter including "Wholeness of Body", "Abundant Step", etc. At 20th level the Monk is basically unkillable. At early levels he has a lot of feats that help him stay competetive and don't forget the old Stunning Fist. The fighter will probably win 6 or 7 times out of 10 but it's not a done deal, if you ask me. nnnnn
DarknessEternal 12-07-05, 05:07 PM	The fighter will probably win 6 or 7 times out of 10 but it's not a done deal, if you ask me. This is true of the totally Core Fighter and Monk. Once you allow either to use material not in the PHB/DMG (but still 3.5 material made by WotC), it's going to swing into the Fighter's count to more of a 9 of 10. (anyone can get lucky, hence the 10% loss chance). Abundant Step can keep the Monk alive if he wants to run away, but if all he wants to do is run away, he doesn't even need that. The problem for the Monk is if he actually wants to fight. PS Stunning Fist is simply not going to work after a certain level range on anything, be it a high Wisdomed Cleric or an average Wisdomed Fighter. The save DC isn't that high and it's going to take a miracle for the Monk to hit anyway.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 12-08-05, 11:13 AM	That is if the fighter in question is wearing armour. Without their armour the fighters are toast...With peanutbutter jelly...
Goreg Skullcrusher 12-08-05, 11:32 AM	That is if the fighter in question is wearing armour. Without their armour the fighters are toast...With peanutbutter jelly... A wizard without any spells is similarly handicapped. Good thing then, that wizards often do have spells.
nnnnn 12-08-05, 01:07 PM	PS Stunning Fist is simply not going to work after a certain level range on anything,be it a high Wisdomed Cleric or an average Wisdomed Fighter. The save DC isn't that high Assuming they have similar CON/WIS bonuses that cancel out, the monk is going to stun the fighter 35% of the time*. And the monk gets 1 attempt per level, so even if he needs two or three tries he will likely get to stun the fighter. Am I missing something? nnnnn *The fighter's fort save progression comes out to be that he needs an 8 or better vs the stunning fist at any level assuming Con/Wis bonuses even out. But realistically the Con/Wis bonus should favor the monk. This is because the monk will generally treat WIS as the most important stat but a fighter will generally treat STR as most important, thus on average a fighter's CON should be lower than a monk's WIS. I figure the monk will have a 1 or 2 pt bonus advantage with his WIS vs. CON, making the stun even more effective.
heretic888 12-08-05, 01:47 PM	Am I missing something? Yeah. The Monk's 3/4 BAB versus the Fighter's armor class. When you take into account that the Fighter's high BAB, Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Focus also allows him to more comfortably sacrifice his accuracy to increase his AC with the Combat Expertise feat, the difference becomes all that much greater. This is because the monk will generally treat WIS as the most important stat but a fighter will generally treat STR as most important While it's probably smarter for Monk players to invest more resources into Wisdom, my personal experience is that Strength and Dexterity tend to get the most attention. thus on average a fighter's CON should be lower than a monk's WIS. Not likely. A Fighter need only really concern himself with Strength and Constitution, and he'll get by just fine. A few specific builds, such as the Weapon Finesse/TWF types, might benefit from Dexterity --- but, really, such builds are more practical for a Ranger than a Fighter. A Monk, by contrast, has to divide his resources among Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution to really be effective. While it is likely that most Monk players with favor one or two of these attributes moreso than others, the simple truth is that it would be exceedingly difficult for the Monk to have any of these attributes as high as a regular Fighter's Strength or Constitution. If he did choose to increase, say, Wisdom at the expense of Dexterity or Strength, it is more likely that the Monk will have abysmal hit and damage bonuses (from a low Strength), or suffer in both armor class and movement skills (from a low Dexterity). All of this assumes equal opportunity and resources (i.e., point-buy and wealth totals) for both the Fighter and the Monk. Laterz.
heretic888 12-08-05, 02:02 PM	I'm not convinced of this. Remember that the Monk has loads of mystical abilities that help him out vs. the fighter including "Wholeness of Body", "Abundant Step", etc. All of which are nice abilities, but don't directly contribute to one's fighting ability. At 20th level the Monk is basically unkillable. At early levels he has a lot of feats that help him stay competetive and don't forget the old Stunning Fist. The fighter will probably win 6 or 7 times out of 10 but it's not a done deal, if you ask me. By 20th level, your average Fighter will have +5 BAB, +2 to hit (Greater Weapon Focus), +4 to damage (Greater Weapon Specialization), at least 25 more hit points, can expend less of his wealth to obtain a higher AC, has 8 more bonus feats pertaining to combat, and probably higher Strength and Constitution scores. It's not even a contest to compare the two. Remember, the high BAB is a big deal. The more BAB you have, the more points you can comfortably give to Power Attack and/or Combat Expertise to boost your damage and AC (which is even easier in the Fighter's case, because of his high Strength score and Greater Weapon Focus). The more BAB you have, the better your grapple checks. The more BAB you have, the better your disarm checks. The more Strength you have (and the Fighter probably has lots more than the Monk), the better your trip checks. Again, this is no contest. Laterz.
nnnnn 12-08-05, 02:11 PM	But regarding the Stunning Fist DC, I am not sure why you said it's not going to work on anything. The numbers seem to me to show that it'll work fairly frequently even on a fighter with high Con... What am I missing there? Edit: Also, I'm not objecting to the fact that the fighter is better than the monk I just don't think he will wipe his butt with the monk as someone above stated. The monk has a chance to pull off some stuns for the win, and at high levels the fighter can only drive him off, not kill him. The monk's practically unkillable at higher levels, so he can go a couple rounds and see how it goes. But I was really surprised to see you claim that the stunning fist is not going to work at higher levels. I'm genuinely asking if I'm missing something. Edit: Also, I'm only really familiar with the core books nnnnn
heretic888 12-08-05, 02:28 PM	But I was really surprised to see you claim that the stunning fist is not going to work at higher levels. I'm genuinely asking if I'm missing something. Once again, Stunning Fist only works if you actually hit your target. As I said before, the Monk's 3/4 BAB + MAD versus the Fighter's 1/1 BAB + high Strength score + cheaper cost to improve AC + Combat Expertise + Greater Weapon Focus makes this highly unlikely. And, that's not even getting into the Fortitude save needed to make the ability work. A 20th level Fighter has a +12 Fortitude save plus whatever Constitution bonus he has stored up his sleeve (Constitution is one of two principal attributes for Fighters, so it's probably pretty high). Of course, the Fighter can go ahead and divest a feat into boosting up his Fortitude by another +2. He's certainly got enough feats to spread around. Statistically speaking, you would have to judge the probability of the Monk first hitting the Fighter and then the Fighter failing the Fortitude saving throw. Mathematically, your chances aren't very good. Lastly, of course, I'm not entirely sure what a Monk could do to a Fighter once he's actually stunned that would be of any great benefit. Most of the Fighter's AC probably comes from armor and enchancement bonuses, so he won't necessarily be any easier to hit. The Fighter can't move, of course, but all that really means is the Monk has a one-round chance to run away --- not actually defeat his opponent. Laterz.
DarknessEternal 12-08-05, 05:19 PM	Edit: Also, I'm not objecting to the fact that the fighter is better than the monk I just don't think he will wipe his butt with the monk as someone above stated. I said that, and I'll note again that was in cotext of using non-Core material. I said it was just an easy fight strictly Core. If you allow non-Core material (still strictly 3.5 WotC products), then it will become a cake walk.