Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sensei Gith 10-21-03, 04:44 PM	This is a repost of my variant fighter from over a month ago, but without the discouraging two-page debate on monks and gauntlets. Basically, this variant -changes the weapon proficiency system to a more realistic one, without adding much complication or lessening power -adds "kits" (swashbuckler and martial artist) that change minor aspects of the fighter to fit different archetypes. Don't expect a complete overhaul. -adds two more skill points. I lied, this fighter is more powerful. Sue me. :P The Fighter Hit Die: d10 Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Warfare and tactics)* (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str). Skill points per level: 4 Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Feat, Floating proficiency 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat, Weapon Specialization 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Floating proficiency 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Greater Weapon Focus 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 10 +12 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Floating proficiency, GWS 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Floating proficiency 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor proficiency: A fighter is proficient in any four martial and all simple weapons, and all armor and shields. Floating proficiency: When the fighter gains a level, he may use one of his floating proficiencies to become proficient in any one weapon that he could pick at first level. The fighter begins with one floating proficiency, and gains one more every six levels. Kits: A fighter might start out with slightly different hit die, proficiencies, class skills, or minor abilities to represent a different concept. A fighter using a kit is still a fighter, however; much like specialist wizards, you can only be one "type" of fighter. No Fighter2/Swashbuckler2/Martial Artist2 cheese. Swashbuckler Kit A swashbuckler’s class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Warfare and tactics)* (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex). A swashbuckler has a high reflex save and a low fortitude save. A swashbuckler may only choose finesseable weapons at first level and for floating proficiencies. He is proficient with light armor and the buckler. When wearing light or no armor, a swashbuckler may add his Intelligence bonus minus his armor check penalties (if the result is greater than zero) to his Dexterity modifier to calculate his armor class. He may also add 1/5 his class level as a dodge bonus. Martial Artist Kit A martial artist class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con, Wis)†, Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Warfare and Tactics)* (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex). A martial artist has a good Reflex save (as well as a good fortitude save). A martial artist is proficient in Unarmed Strikes, two weapons from the following list (dagger, kama, kukri, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, tonfa), and no armor or shields. A martial artist gains his Wisdom plus 1/5 his level as a dodge bonus to armor class when not wearing armor or using a shield. New uses for skills Knowledge (Warfare and Tactics) may be used in place of Sense Motive to detect a bluff or for Combat Prediction. It provides a +2 synergy bonus to Bluff checks for feinting in combat. New uses for Concentration: These uses use the Wisdom stat instead of Constitution. Break an object DC 15 You deal +1d6 damage to an inanimate object after a full round of concentration. You deal +1d6 damage for every 5 you beat the DC by. Combat focus DC 15 You gain a +1 to attack rolls, AC, and saving throws versus one opponent and a -1 penalty to the same versus everyone else. Opponents flanking you gain a +4 to attack rolls instead of a +2, but your target cannt flank you (although an opponent standing opposite him would still be flanking). A character with 5 ranks of concentration gains a +2 synergy bonus on will saves versus enchantments. Martial Weapon Proficiency Groups If you have proficiency in one weapon in a proficiency group, then you only suffer a -2 penalty to using another weapon in the same group. The feat Martial Weapon Proficiency grants proficiency in one proficiency group. Axes and Picks Throwing Axe Handaxe Battleaxe Greataxe Light Pick Heavy Pick Scythe Dwarven Waraxe, two-handed Hammers and Flails Light Hammer Warhammer Maul (Two-Handed, 2d6, x3, Bludgeoning) Light Flail Heavy Flail Lances and Spears Heavy Lance Trident Halfspear Shortspear Longspear Javelin Swords Shortsword Longsword Rapier Scimitar Falchion Greatsword Bastard Sword, 2-handed Heavy Weapons Greataxe Greatsword Greatclub Scythe Maul Polearms Glaive Guisarme Halberd (2d4, x3, Piercing/Slashing, Reach, can be set against charge) Longspear Ranseur Bows Shortbow (and composite) Longbow (and composite) New Martial Arts Weapon Stats How about these stats for monk weapons? Weapon Damage Crit Type Dagger 1d4 19–20 Piercing/Slashing Kama 1d6 x4 Piercing/Slashing Kukri 1d4 18–20 Slashing Nunchaku 1d6 x3 Bludgeoning Quarterstaff 1d6 x2 Bludgeoning (double weapon) Sai 1d4 19–20 Piercing OR Bludgeoning Tonfa 1d6 x2 Bludgeoning A dagger or kukri can be thrown (10 foot range increment). A kama can be used to make trip attacks (with a +2 bonus). A nunchaku can be used as a wire garrote. A quarterstaff is essentially ki focus for free. A sai grants a +8 to disarm checks. A tonfa grants a +2 AC while using Expertise, fighting defensively, or using the full defense action. They're the same power as normal martial weapons, but each one has an extra something for martial artists or monks to use. Pertinent house rules Improved Unarmed Strike (renamed Unarmed Strike Proficiency) makes your fists deal 1d6 damage (or more or less, depending on size), as well as its normal effects. A character with more than one stat (besides Dexterity) to Armor Class only applies the highest, regardless of bonus type. So a monk/martial artist/swashbuckler/duelist/iajustu master/arcane duelist/bladesinger only applies their intelligence or wisdom, and only once. All characters with a higher Dex than Str get Weapon Finesse for free. If you think that this in particular is unbalanced, please do not say so on this thread. Start a new one, or post on an existing one on the topic, as that discussion will completely derail this one. One-handed piercing or slashing weapons are finesseable. ------------------------------------------------ Finally, I know that many people think that the fighter needs a power boost. I am one of them, as a matter of fact. But this thread is not about that. Please don't discuss it here, as there are numerous threads about exactly that topic. With that in mind, how does it look? [EDIT 10/22: Clarified Kit rules, added Greater stuff to table, and removed overpowered concentration stuff]
ManTimeForgot 10-21-03, 05:49 PM	I like Knowledge warfare and tactics. Combat Focus and Break object are nice. But stabilization and Fight below zero impinge on Die Hard feat too much imho. I would replace those two with a feat which gives a circumstantial bonus to AC, which you can explain as using the terrain to your greatest advantage. Make opposed knowledge warfare and tactics rolls. If you win the roll you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your AC for that round. If your opponent beats you by 5 or more then that opponent has guaged your tactics and gains a +2 bonus to strike you. As to comment on the class itself. I don't think you have really addressed any of the mechanical failings of the class. It would still be necessary to revamp the feat system. I think the fighter would still suffer from the flaws inherent in the curent feat model of power progression. And I think that your proficiency system does not help the fighter become more useful. I was never a big fan of the kit setup in 2ed, and this simply rehashes old issues with kits. How does one take both martial artist and swashbuckler? Can you even have two kits? The house ruling that multiple bonuses to AC don't stack is only necessary if you make it so easy to those abilities. Normally you would have to be a monk duelist, which isn't exactly easy to come by. I think the addition of weapon specialization might be going in the right direction, but I don't think its enough. GWS at 10th level maybe. The fighter addition of profession and 4sp per level might help alleviate problems with out of combat uselessness of the fighter, but aside from that I don't know what your new fighter model means to address as far as the failings of the fighter. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Sensei Gith 10-22-03, 04:29 PM	Combat Focus and Break object are nice. But stabilization and Fight below zero impinge on Die Hard feat too much imho. You're probably right. I would replace those two with a feat which gives a circumstantial bonus to AC, which you can explain as using the terrain to your greatest advantage. I think that there's already something like that in Sword and Fist. As to comment on the class itself. I don't think you have really addressed any of the mechanical failings of the class. I know. There are too many threads for that already. And I think that your proficiency system does not help the fighter become more useful. It's just more realistic. It's bothered me that a fighter has somehow trained with every weapon in existence. This fixes that problem. Now, a fighter who has never seen a particular weapon before can't use it properly. If they have used similar weapons, though, they will quickly pick up the basics (only -2 penalty). After using it for a while, they will become as proficient with it as with any other weapon they've used (floating proficiency). On the same note, I and many others have wanted some sort of proficiency group system. If you've used a longsword, a scimitar shouldn't be such a stretch. This softens the (admittedly minor) blow of less proficiencies, and is flavorful in general. How does one take both martial artist and swashbuckler? You don't. They're both fighters. I'll clarify this in my original post. The house ruling that multiple bonuses to AC don't stack is only necessary if you make it so easy to those abilities. Normally you would have to be a monk duelist, which isn't exactly easy to come by. It also prevents serious monk/martial artist or swashbuckler/duelist abuse. It's not suppose to be more powerful, just more realistic and more inclusive of different archetypes.
ManTimeForgot 10-22-03, 09:22 PM	OK I thought you were proposing martial artist as a substitute in your system for the monk, returning the monk to a subsection of fighter. I can understand the house ruling if you plan on keeping the monk/duelist and make use of "kits." Realistic that fighters should only a have a limited number of proficiencies:yes. Is it realistic that shurikens are exotic weapons for someone who grew up in an oriental style area? No. If you wanted more realism weapons should be exotic according to the area, Yes? The group proficiency system does make sense, but I would liken it back to 2ed where fighters were only subject to a negative one non-profiency penalty. I would make the related weapon group non-profiency penalty returned back to -1. It's a decent attempt at archtypal inclusion. I would try and create one for mounted warriors. "Knights..." Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Sensei Gith 10-23-03, 03:38 PM	OK I thought you were proposing martial artist as a substitute in your system for the monk, returning the monk to a subsection of fighter. Actually, I like monks too. Martial Artists are just different. They don't know a thing about ki, they don't talk to plants, and they don't have supernatural speed. They just fight with their fists (and assorted martial arts weapons). The fighter fits this role quite nicely (with a little modification). Realistic that fighters should only a have a limited number of proficiencies:yes. Is it realistic that shurikens are exotic weapons for someone who grew up in an oriental style area? No. If you wanted more realism weapons should be exotic according to the area, Yes? I consider "exotic" to be somewhat of a misomer. They are exotic because they require special training. The fighting style is exotic, as opposed to the relatively mundane longsword and katana. I would make the related weapon group non-profiency penalty returned back to -1. I disagree. Even a fighter needs a little practice; using a longsword is very similar to using a scimitar, but different enough that the -2 penalty is (IMO) justified. But feel free to pick and choose if you want to use the variant. It's a decent attempt at archtypal inclusion. I would try and create one for mounted warriors. "Knights..." The reason that I created a Swashbuckler and Martial Artist was that they couldn't be adequately modeled using just the base fighter. The swashbuckler needs a decent AC, and the martial artist needs a decent AC and reasonable damage. What does a mounted knight need above and beyond the bonus feats?
ManTimeForgot 10-23-03, 05:02 PM	A mount that can survive? Maybe give a bonus to mount AC? A knight needs to be diplomatic at times (thematically speaking). A knight needs mad ride and handle animal skill which is going to soak up all the fighter's skill points, so maybe a skill point boost... Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Sensei Gith 10-23-03, 08:32 PM	As for a better mount, why not take Leadership? That could get you a nice mount. But then you're in Cha-land. Maybe there could be a special advancement table for a Knight's horse. But that might be a bit much. I've never played a mounted fighter. Do they really suffer from having a weak mount? If so, a mount progression might be appropriate.
TheMightyMcClaw 10-23-03, 08:52 PM	Hmm... on a somewhat side note, I really like the monk-weapon stats. However, perhaps a wee-bit over done. The sai gaining a +8 on disarms seems like an awful lot.... then again, with the current sytem, a longspear is one of the most effective weapons for disarming.... Also, you might want to change the crit on the kama.... I see what you're doing with the hook-shaked weapons have high crit mods.... however, the general rule (as I've seen it) is weapons that are highly effective against unarmored targets (scimitar, rapier) have high crit ranges, and weapons that are highly effective against armored targets have high mods (like the military pick). It's not always obeyed, but its a good general rule....
Sensei Gith 10-24-03, 05:35 PM	Hmm... on a somewhat side note, I really like the monk-weapon stats. However, perhaps a wee-bit over done. The sai gaining a +8 on disarms seems like an awful lot.... then again, with the current sytem, a longspear is one of the most effective weapons for disarming... With a +8, it's tied with two-handed weapons. The flail still surpasses it, but at least it's good at disarming. Before, it sucked really badly at its signature trick. The Q-staff was better and had better damage besides. Now it can disarm effectively. Also, you might want to change the crit on the kama.... I see what you're doing with the hook-shaked weapons have high crit mods.... however, the general rule (as I've seen it) is weapons that are highly effective against unarmored targets (scimitar, rapier) have high crit ranges, and weapons that are highly effective against armored targets have high mods (like the military pick). It's not always obeyed, but its a good general rule.... I was using the illustration on page 40 of Dragon 210. Those kamas scream "hand scythe." I had to capure the awesome inherent :cool:ness of those kamas. Plus, I can just imagine a monk sinking these deep into a suit of plate.