A good rogue build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A good rogue build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HalfSlothHalfCamel
12-06-05, 12:28 AM So what I am looking for is more of a hit and run rogue. I want him to be very good at many skills, as well as proficient with ranged attacks, as well as being able to at least do a good amount of damage with melee sneak attacks.

My questions are:
1) What race would best?
2) What class mix/progression?
3) What feats to choose?

My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6).
Rocketboy13
12-06-05, 01:35 AM My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6).
Your ability scores are so incredably good, you could play an awakened butterfly and still kick @ss.
periscope
12-06-05, 02:18 AM If an assasin type rogue, go with halfling with the 1st level halfling rogue substitution level, take a flaw so you'll get two feats, take Exotic Weapon proficiency (desert throwing knives) and two weapon fighting, weapon focus and far shot, and go into the whisperknife prestige class.

If infiltration type rogue, go with changeling, see if you like any of their rogue substitution levels, and max out disguise and bluff, diplomacy, hide, intimidate, move silently, sense motive, and keep taking skill focus (any of the above feats).
Rumple_Cragstan
12-06-05, 02:32 AM For my concept, race dosn't matter. Just don't choose halfling/dwarf/gnome if you want to do it properly. Human is probably the best choice.

take Run and Dash as feats, giving you a speed of 35 and a run speed of 140. Keep in mind you can take Dash multiple times, so you could jack your speed through the roof.

As you get to higher levels, work towards getting Spring Attack.

Here's how I would do it, assuming you where human and took 2 flaws.

1st - Run, Dash, Dodge, Mobility

3rd - Deadly Precison (pretty much whatever you want, but I would use this)

6th - Spring Attack

This allows you to be ridiculously effective with hit+run tactics, especially if you can get a sneak attack in with that one hit.

Personally, I would take a level of fighter in there somewhere. I think 4th level would be the best choice, it would give you Spring Attack earlier, and the extra HP would be a huge help. Not to mention that since you just got another Sneak Attack d6 at 3rd, you won't be behind in damage really.

And for lots of skills.... have a high INT.
FabulousRex
12-06-05, 02:33 AM You really should try out the Scout, if you want mobile damage dealing. Try this build out for some good full-attack Skirmishing and Psionic prowess. Requires the feat Education from Eberron, which makes all Knowledge skills available. Go with a Kalashtar for the extra PPs, otherwise a Human works as well.

Scout6/Warmind2/Elocater10/Highland Stalker2
BAB+16, Skirmish+3d6

1-Scout1-Education,(Wild Talent if Human)
2-Scout2
3-Scout3-Dodge
4-Scout4-(Mobility)
5-Scout5
6-Warmind1-Spring Attack
7-Warmind2
8-Elocater1
9-Elocater2-W.Finesse
10-Elocater3
11-Elocater4
12-Elocater5-2WF
13-Elocater6
14-Elocater7-(Capricious step ability)
15-Elocater8-Improved2WF
16-Elocater9
17-Elocater10
18-H.Stalker1-Greater2WF
19-H.Stalker2
20-Scout6

Put high scores in Wis,Dex,Con. Put low score in STR. You are incredibly mobile from a 1st level, and deal good damage on the move. You have tons of skills and Trapfinding. You get 7 attacks with +3d6 Skirmish damage, which isn't as much as a good 2WF Rogue, but you don't need to flank, and you can bug out after you do your full attack action. You also get great psionic buffing abilities, to supplement all of that!
Ehelonna
12-06-05, 03:30 AM So what I am looking for is more of a hit and run rogue. I want him to be very good at many skills, as well as proficient with ranged attacks, as well as being able to at least do a good amount of damage with melee sneak attacks.

My questions are:
1) What race would best?
2) What class mix/progression?
3) What feats to choose?

My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6).
VERY nice stats...

Drop an 18 into Int... More skill points and it adds to your search checks.
Race doesn't really matter with those stats, though an increased land speed would be nice for the hit and run aspect.
A couple of fighter levels is nice to increase your number of feats.
Even after the nerfing of feint, improved feint may be useful.
Taking maximum levels in tumble is great
Spring attack and mobility are useful, but not essential
Thief Acrobat is really nice. :D

Some people may suggest a high strength... but the ability to add your sneak attack damage is much more important. So, dexderity and tumble skill should be primary... followed by as many rogue levels (sneak attack) as possible. A pure rogue is viable... anything that gets sneak attack dice at first level is even better for a one level dip.
HalfSlothHalfCamel
12-06-05, 09:53 AM Ok so the only books I have right now are the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM, I don't recognize half of the terms people used lol.

Scout? Warmind? Highland Stalker? Elocator? Kashatar? Thief Acrobat? Also maybe I need to look closer but I didn't see anything about substitution levels, flaws and extra feats. Whisperknife?
Where are y'all getting all these titles and terms?

My character is an assasin, so I was thinking about taking assasin prestige class levels, but that whisperknife thing sounds intriguing as does the thief acrobat. Actually all those builds look cool, this is what I hate, having to make the decision.
HalfSlothHalfCamel
12-06-05, 02:05 PM Can anyone guide to me where to I can find those previously mentioned terms? What books are they in? Am I missing them in the core books?
Verdaloth
12-06-05, 02:23 PM Can anyone guide to me where to I can find those previously mentioned terms? What books are they in? Am I missing them in the core books?

No, all the above mentioned are in the complete books and expanded psionics.
Rumple_Cragstan
12-06-05, 02:24 PM I'll tell you the ones I know.

Classes:
Thief Acrobat - Complete Adventurer
Scout - Complete Adventurer
Warmind - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Elocater - Expanded Psi. Handbook

Flaws are a concept from Unearthed Aracana (the book of variant rules). Essentially, they make your character suck at something (-3 on Fort. saves, speed reduced by half, -1 to HP every level, ect) but gives them a bonus feat in exchange. You can only take flaws at character creation, and you can only take up to 2.

And for note, you most definately want to take a look at that 'Deady Precision' feat. Its in the Expanded Psi. handbook, and lets you re-roll all the 1s that come up on your sneak damage. Even though its in the psionics book, its got nothing to do with psionics.
rhogan josh
12-06-05, 02:31 PM I've never heard of 'em either. Flaws sounds great if a bit worrying, as do the prestige classes. Maybe you could try throwing in a level of cleric instead of fighter if you do multiclass, while cleric has lower hit points and attack bonus and lacks the extra feat, this is balanced by the excellent progression in saving throws that rogue neglects (fort and will), undead turning and, of course, divine spell casting (cat's grace at cleric level 3). That's what I'm gonna do. Character rolling sesh next week, ahahaaaa....
Saxis
12-06-05, 02:37 PM You really do have some awesome stats there, so you could pretty much do anything, quite well. Hit and run... You really got TONS of options, but if you are stuck with core books, I would look at Rogue 6/Assassin 8 to start with...

For classes, other 6 levels you can find something to work with I'm sure... I would suggest Tefflemar Shadowlord from Unapproachable East. You get even more spells, more Death Attack (that stacks with Assassin), some GREAT abilities, including Shadow Jump, Improved Darkvision (see through Magical Darkness), and Shadow Pounce (Full attack after Shadow Jump or Dimension Door).

For Race, I wouldn't look any farther than Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone. It was showcased when the book was released. You can find it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3). They are small, retain 30ft movement and have some cool spell-like abilities (even qualifying for Arcane Trickster with Assassin levels). They are also sneaking masters with good bonuses to Hide/Move Silently.

For feats, I would suggest Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Blind-fighting, Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse.

Your starting stats I would place like this:
Str: 16, Dex: 18, Con: 17, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 16

Whisper Gnome would take them to:
Str: 14, Dex: 20, Con: 19, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

At level 20:
Str: 14, Dex: 24, Con: 20, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

Here's your tactic:
Find a good hiding place and observe if you are going to use Death Attack. You have several modes of attack.. Spring Attack and move away (only 1 attack). Dimension Door (Assassin spell), full attack and 5-foot adjust to re-hide. Shadow Jump, full attack and 5-foot adjust to re-hide. You get 7d6 sneak attack, if they make your minimum DC 28 Death Attack (more with intelligence boosts).

This was my ultimate hit and run rogue I was going to play, but we have a couple lawful-goods in the party that made it difficult. If you can play Evil, this build will be just what you need.
HalfSlothHalfCamel
12-07-05, 01:16 AM I thank everyone for their input and advice. Nearly everything said here was copied and pasted into my growing DnD class notes. I have decided for now to go with a Rogue/Assasin/Thief Acrobat build, simply for roleplaying reasons. Although the Whisperknife really looked freakin cool.

Im not sure about progression or levels in each class, but I like the combination of those classes. I think I am going to use kukri's and throwing knives. I also would like to go for flick of the wrist, and spring attack (along with the pre-reqs). I think it will be a fun character to play if not the best built or most powerful, which I guess is what matters in the end eh?

Once again thanks to all for the answers and advice to my questions.
Particle_Man
12-07-05, 02:59 AM My advice (using only the books you have):

Rogue all the way.

Human: Dex, Int both 18. Charisma 14. The 17 I would put in str for encumbrance purposes. Increase Dex. at every opportunity.

Feats:

1. Dodge
1. Mobility
3. Point Blank Shot
6. Spring Attack
9. Shot on the Run
12. Weapon Finesse
15. Combat Expertise
18. Improved Feint

Skills: Spot, Listen, Move Silent, Hide, Tumble, Jump, Climb, Bluff, Sense Motive, Search, Open Locks, Disable Device, Use Magic Device. Max all of them out.

Thief special abilities:

10. Improved Evasion (because a 5% chance of dying is not so good)
13. Opportunist
16. Crippling Strike
19. Skill Mastery (Tumble, Jump, Climb, Bluff, Search, Open Locks, Disable Device)

There ya go. Lots of skills, and you can hit and run either as a meelee guy or a missle weapon guy. Oh, get googles of darkvision and a mithril chain shirt and a sword of subtlety at the earliest opportunity.
Echo2
12-07-05, 11:34 AM Hey, I'm just kind of curious, where is the whisperknife prestige class? I also have a rogue and I'm still trying to decide which way to go with him.
Echo2
12-08-05, 02:55 AM :bump:

Whisperknife prestige class? Anybody?
Echo2
12-08-05, 03:20 AM Cancel that, just found it.

Races of the Wild, if anyone's interested.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HalfSlothHalfCamel 12-06-05, 12:28 AM	So what I am looking for is more of a hit and run rogue. I want him to be very good at many skills, as well as proficient with ranged attacks, as well as being able to at least do a good amount of damage with melee sneak attacks. My questions are: 1) What race would best? 2) What class mix/progression? 3) What feats to choose? My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6).
Rocketboy13 12-06-05, 01:35 AM	My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6). Your ability scores are so incredably good, you could play an awakened butterfly and still kick @ss.
periscope 12-06-05, 02:18 AM	If an assasin type rogue, go with halfling with the 1st level halfling rogue substitution level, take a flaw so you'll get two feats, take Exotic Weapon proficiency (desert throwing knives) and two weapon fighting, weapon focus and far shot, and go into the whisperknife prestige class. If infiltration type rogue, go with changeling, see if you like any of their rogue substitution levels, and max out disguise and bluff, diplomacy, hide, intimidate, move silently, sense motive, and keep taking skill focus (any of the above feats).
Rumple_Cragstan 12-06-05, 02:32 AM	For my concept, race dosn't matter. Just don't choose halfling/dwarf/gnome if you want to do it properly. Human is probably the best choice. take Run and Dash as feats, giving you a speed of 35 and a run speed of 140. Keep in mind you can take Dash multiple times, so you could jack your speed through the roof. As you get to higher levels, work towards getting Spring Attack. Here's how I would do it, assuming you where human and took 2 flaws. 1st - Run, Dash, Dodge, Mobility 3rd - Deadly Precison (pretty much whatever you want, but I would use this) 6th - Spring Attack This allows you to be ridiculously effective with hit+run tactics, especially if you can get a sneak attack in with that one hit. Personally, I would take a level of fighter in there somewhere. I think 4th level would be the best choice, it would give you Spring Attack earlier, and the extra HP would be a huge help. Not to mention that since you just got another Sneak Attack d6 at 3rd, you won't be behind in damage really. And for lots of skills.... have a high INT.
FabulousRex 12-06-05, 02:33 AM	You really should try out the Scout, if you want mobile damage dealing. Try this build out for some good full-attack Skirmishing and Psionic prowess. Requires the feat Education from Eberron, which makes all Knowledge skills available. Go with a Kalashtar for the extra PPs, otherwise a Human works as well. Scout6/Warmind2/Elocater10/Highland Stalker2 BAB+16, Skirmish+3d6 1-Scout1-Education,(Wild Talent if Human) 2-Scout2 3-Scout3-Dodge 4-Scout4-(Mobility) 5-Scout5 6-Warmind1-Spring Attack 7-Warmind2 8-Elocater1 9-Elocater2-W.Finesse 10-Elocater3 11-Elocater4 12-Elocater5-2WF 13-Elocater6 14-Elocater7-(Capricious step ability) 15-Elocater8-Improved2WF 16-Elocater9 17-Elocater10 18-H.Stalker1-Greater2WF 19-H.Stalker2 20-Scout6 Put high scores in Wis,Dex,Con. Put low score in STR. You are incredibly mobile from a 1st level, and deal good damage on the move. You have tons of skills and Trapfinding. You get 7 attacks with +3d6 Skirmish damage, which isn't as much as a good 2WF Rogue, but you don't need to flank, and you can bug out after you do your full attack action. You also get great psionic buffing abilities, to supplement all of that!
Ehelonna 12-06-05, 03:30 AM	So what I am looking for is more of a hit and run rogue. I want him to be very good at many skills, as well as proficient with ranged attacks, as well as being able to at least do a good amount of damage with melee sneak attacks. My questions are: 1) What race would best? 2) What class mix/progression? 3) What feats to choose? My stat rolls are 16,18,16,18,14,17 (with 4d6 roll drop 1d6). VERY nice stats... Drop an 18 into Int... More skill points and it adds to your search checks. Race doesn't really matter with those stats, though an increased land speed would be nice for the hit and run aspect. A couple of fighter levels is nice to increase your number of feats. Even after the nerfing of feint, improved feint may be useful. Taking maximum levels in tumble is great Spring attack and mobility are useful, but not essential Thief Acrobat is really nice. :D Some people may suggest a high strength... but the ability to add your sneak attack damage is much more important. So, dexderity and tumble skill should be primary... followed by as many rogue levels (sneak attack) as possible. A pure rogue is viable... anything that gets sneak attack dice at first level is even better for a one level dip.
HalfSlothHalfCamel 12-06-05, 09:53 AM	Ok so the only books I have right now are the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM, I don't recognize half of the terms people used lol. Scout? Warmind? Highland Stalker? Elocator? Kashatar? Thief Acrobat? Also maybe I need to look closer but I didn't see anything about substitution levels, flaws and extra feats. Whisperknife? Where are y'all getting all these titles and terms? My character is an assasin, so I was thinking about taking assasin prestige class levels, but that whisperknife thing sounds intriguing as does the thief acrobat. Actually all those builds look cool, this is what I hate, having to make the decision.
HalfSlothHalfCamel 12-06-05, 02:05 PM	Can anyone guide to me where to I can find those previously mentioned terms? What books are they in? Am I missing them in the core books?
Verdaloth 12-06-05, 02:23 PM	Can anyone guide to me where to I can find those previously mentioned terms? What books are they in? Am I missing them in the core books? No, all the above mentioned are in the complete books and expanded psionics.
Rumple_Cragstan 12-06-05, 02:24 PM	I'll tell you the ones I know. Classes: Thief Acrobat - Complete Adventurer Scout - Complete Adventurer Warmind - Expanded Psionics Handbook Elocater - Expanded Psi. Handbook Flaws are a concept from Unearthed Aracana (the book of variant rules). Essentially, they make your character suck at something (-3 on Fort. saves, speed reduced by half, -1 to HP every level, ect) but gives them a bonus feat in exchange. You can only take flaws at character creation, and you can only take up to 2. And for note, you most definately want to take a look at that 'Deady Precision' feat. Its in the Expanded Psi. handbook, and lets you re-roll all the 1s that come up on your sneak damage. Even though its in the psionics book, its got nothing to do with psionics.
rhogan josh 12-06-05, 02:31 PM	I've never heard of 'em either. Flaws sounds great if a bit worrying, as do the prestige classes. Maybe you could try throwing in a level of cleric instead of fighter if you do multiclass, while cleric has lower hit points and attack bonus and lacks the extra feat, this is balanced by the excellent progression in saving throws that rogue neglects (fort and will), undead turning and, of course, divine spell casting (cat's grace at cleric level 3). That's what I'm gonna do. Character rolling sesh next week, ahahaaaa....
Saxis 12-06-05, 02:37 PM	You really do have some awesome stats there, so you could pretty much do anything, quite well. Hit and run... You really got TONS of options, but if you are stuck with core books, I would look at Rogue 6/Assassin 8 to start with... For classes, other 6 levels you can find something to work with I'm sure... I would suggest Tefflemar Shadowlord from Unapproachable East. You get even more spells, more Death Attack (that stacks with Assassin), some GREAT abilities, including Shadow Jump, Improved Darkvision (see through Magical Darkness), and Shadow Pounce (Full attack after Shadow Jump or Dimension Door). For Race, I wouldn't look any farther than Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone. It was showcased when the book was released. You can find it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3). They are small, retain 30ft movement and have some cool spell-like abilities (even qualifying for Arcane Trickster with Assassin levels). They are also sneaking masters with good bonuses to Hide/Move Silently. For feats, I would suggest Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Blind-fighting, Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse. Your starting stats I would place like this: Str: 16, Dex: 18, Con: 17, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 16 Whisper Gnome would take them to: Str: 14, Dex: 20, Con: 19, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 14 At level 20: Str: 14, Dex: 24, Con: 20, Int: 18, Wis: 14, Cha: 14 Here's your tactic: Find a good hiding place and observe if you are going to use Death Attack. You have several modes of attack.. Spring Attack and move away (only 1 attack). Dimension Door (Assassin spell), full attack and 5-foot adjust to re-hide. Shadow Jump, full attack and 5-foot adjust to re-hide. You get 7d6 sneak attack, if they make your minimum DC 28 Death Attack (more with intelligence boosts). This was my ultimate hit and run rogue I was going to play, but we have a couple lawful-goods in the party that made it difficult. If you can play Evil, this build will be just what you need.
HalfSlothHalfCamel 12-07-05, 01:16 AM	I thank everyone for their input and advice. Nearly everything said here was copied and pasted into my growing DnD class notes. I have decided for now to go with a Rogue/Assasin/Thief Acrobat build, simply for roleplaying reasons. Although the Whisperknife really looked freakin cool. Im not sure about progression or levels in each class, but I like the combination of those classes. I think I am going to use kukri's and throwing knives. I also would like to go for flick of the wrist, and spring attack (along with the pre-reqs). I think it will be a fun character to play if not the best built or most powerful, which I guess is what matters in the end eh? Once again thanks to all for the answers and advice to my questions.
Particle_Man 12-07-05, 02:59 AM	My advice (using only the books you have): Rogue all the way. Human: Dex, Int both 18. Charisma 14. The 17 I would put in str for encumbrance purposes. Increase Dex. at every opportunity. Feats: 1. Dodge 1. Mobility 3. Point Blank Shot 6. Spring Attack 9. Shot on the Run 12. Weapon Finesse 15. Combat Expertise 18. Improved Feint Skills: Spot, Listen, Move Silent, Hide, Tumble, Jump, Climb, Bluff, Sense Motive, Search, Open Locks, Disable Device, Use Magic Device. Max all of them out. Thief special abilities: 10. Improved Evasion (because a 5% chance of dying is not so good) 13. Opportunist 16. Crippling Strike 19. Skill Mastery (Tumble, Jump, Climb, Bluff, Search, Open Locks, Disable Device) There ya go. Lots of skills, and you can hit and run either as a meelee guy or a missle weapon guy. Oh, get googles of darkvision and a mithril chain shirt and a sword of subtlety at the earliest opportunity.
Echo2 12-07-05, 11:34 AM	Hey, I'm just kind of curious, where is the whisperknife prestige class? I also have a rogue and I'm still trying to decide which way to go with him.
Echo2 12-08-05, 02:55 AM	:bump: Whisperknife prestige class? Anybody?
Echo2 12-08-05, 03:20 AM	Cancel that, just found it. Races of the Wild, if anyone's interested.