Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iliyan 07-05-07, 06:32 AM	As my D&D game progresses further into the higher levels, i can't help to wonder what will happen once my sorcerer friend reaches level 18. He gets a ninth level spell, which he will be able to cast 3 times per day (minimum). Now, i personally have absolutely no problem with my friend being able to cast Wish 3 times per day, but i fear that with him becoming so much more powerful then the rest of the team, the DM might have to scale either him, or the rest of our party to match his power, or tone him down. Another option would be not to give him the ability to simply take Wish at level 18, which i think would be kind of unfair, but maybe make him research it, or give away some of his strength in return for Wish (which would lead nowhere since he will be able to get everything back in a matter of 2-3 in game days). I would like to hear your thoughts about this problem? Best regards from Iliyan
TaiSharShaidar 07-05-07, 07:28 AM	LoL well if your friend really does cast wish 3 times a day he will not remain level 18 long it has an exp cost of 5000 per casting. It’s kind of a self limiting spell. Wish can be a game changing spell that can snatch a victory form almost imposable odds, but it is never cast lightly, usually only in "I have to cast this or we all die" situations. However, all casters begin to out shine the other PCs in that manor; the spells are incredibly broken as you get into 5 level plus magic. You have to just except that magic users are powerful at the higher levels, that’s how the game was designed. But as far as wish goes it’s a non issue.
Elana 07-05-07, 07:46 AM	LoL well if your friend really does cast wish 3 times a day he will not remain level 18 long it has an exp cost of 5000 per casting... Why wouldn't he stay level 18? You can't lose Levels by spending XP on anything. (Mostly because you are not allowed to spent more XP than you ove the amount neccesary for your current level) So to cast 3 wish spells per day, he needs to get 15000 XP per day. And in a game like that, everyone should soon be a dozen levels ahead of the poor sorcerer :)
Iliyan 07-05-07, 07:52 AM	Ok, i agree that casting Wish 3 times in a day would end up poorly, however even that one wish could ruin a big pile of delicate game balance. Besides, at level 18 ( 17) how hard would it be to get 5k XP? One bigger encounter and your set for the next Wish. Only thing he looses is a 8th spell slot, and the 2 remaining Wishes for the day, and if he gains 5k XP in fast succession he would again gain 1 8th spell slot, and 3 more 9th spell slots. The question is, would he once again be able to cast that 8th & 9th level spell (this depends heavily on DM reasoning, but is a possible way of exploiting (not that any DM would allow it) On the point of casters becoming dominant in high level games, it is true, but in my opinion this might be because normal meele characters have troubles reaching them (My prime example is a fighter specialized in dual wielding. He has serious problems reaching the Wizards my party is encountering (90% of them use fly, and swoop down from the skies down on my party, after probably having some cleric divine our location) he is currently in the midst of a problem of acquiring some means to be able to protect us from those same Wizards, and effectively preventing their spell casting.) On a side-note those Wizards really are a troublesome bunch, using invisibility, fly and teleport gives us big problems in defeating them (they desolate the area with spells and run away). If our sorcerer gains that Wish he might be enough to defeat them, and gain enough XP to still gain another 18th lvl after loosing 5k XP( from Wish) So, back to OP what could a Fighter, or a Rogue do to catch up to that unbalanced spell caster development. And are there any plans to maybe rectify this point in higher games?
Iliyan 07-05-07, 07:56 AM	Why wouldn't he stay level 18? You can't lose Levels by spending XP on anything. (Mostly because you are not allowed to spent more XP than you ove the amount neccesary for your current level) So to cast 3 wish spells per day, he needs to get 15000 XP per day. And in a game like that, everyone should soon be a dozen levels ahead of the poor sorcerer :) Brilliant! Just amazing! If that happens he stays 18th level, and the rest of the party progresses into epic. Thank you for that nice insight.
TaiSharShaidar 07-05-07, 08:06 AM	Also you have to remember that wish is very much a subjective spell, you must be very careful when you use it to clearly state your intention. Any ambiguity at all leaves room for DM interpretation of the effects, aside from a very specific list of effects. This is another balance point for the spell should a PC get to crazy with it. And sorry for the earlier post, my DM allows level loss from paying Exp costs for spells. I’ve been playing that way so long I forgot that it was a house rule.
Iliyan 07-05-07, 08:17 AM	actually, we play by that same rule, but nm that as for the clearly stated intention... this is the most fun part of the spell :D only adds a twist to the whole game
runestar 07-05-07, 01:23 PM	I agree that it can be problematic in the sense that even though wish's expensive xp cost would prohibit how often it can be used, just the fact that it is a valid option open to the entire party could potentially derail any campaign, simply because of the sheer degree of unpredictability it introduces. The DM needs to take into account all possible resources the PCs can command when designing high lv encounters. It is not so straightforward as them moving from Point A to B while mowing down everything in their path. PCs can access "I win" spells like AMF, teleport without error, shadow walk, astral projection, gate etc which might allow them to readily circumvent anything a DM tries to throw in their face. It can become very tiring to try and second guess what the players might be up to, and the DM cannot always ban every of such spells since the point of having such higher lv spells is that the spellcasters can literally bend reality to their will and shape it as they please. Nothing sucks more than the DM spending a lot of time planning out a particular encounter, only to have the sorc make short work of it, or worse, somehow skip it altogether with a creatively worded wish, or a clever application of some other spell. Note that when I say "creative", I assume that the use of the wish spell is well within the limits delineated in its entry, just that the DM might have failed to properly account for it. Now he needs to think "How might the player screw this up with wish?" :( It is somewhat like a tactical nuke in the sense that while you know deep down that it will not be used, the threat is still there...:P
wellofworlds 07-05-07, 01:38 PM	Just to let you know clerics have a more powerful spell called miracle, and in certain circumstances the spell does not have a exp cost. If you think wish is broken, then you have not read miracle. Any way a sorcerer first 18 th lvl spell should not be wish. It should be disjunction. It instantly destroy any bluff, potion, or scrolls, and also can destroy magic items with a failed will save. We had a barbarian who lost all of his stuff due to three disjunctions in one combat.
jaelis 07-05-07, 01:39 PM	If you just play wish as written, it is not (very) abusable. It's good at saving you from TPKs, but that's not really a big problem. If your friend wants to break the game he'll be able to, but wish is not the optimum way to proceed. Probably gate is the best in core, followed by shapechange.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 01:40 PM	Gosh, don't we all hate it when players actually show a little (gasp) intelligence and creativity :) .
Iliyan 07-06-07, 03:56 AM	1) Runestar, I can't agree more about the tactical nuke thing :D However, I believe the DM will have to implement more and more encounters which will be centered on the sorcerer (our only arcane caster)... maybe a bunch of Wizard Slayers (that thing on not able to cast defensively is great for just making you really ****** when you loose that so anxiously prepared lifesaver spell). But this might prove to be a second problem, the rest of the party should be able to fend off these attacks with relative ease, and if the DM puts both Wizard Slayers, and some NastyMeeleMonster[Insert NMM name here] that could prove to be fatal for the party. 2) On the account of Miracle, wellofworlds, this in my opinion is a more balanced spell then Wish, the reasons for my decision there is that, lets say your playing a good/neutral aligned Cleric, of a good/neutral Deity. How often will a good cleric as his Deity for a boon for himself (if he does, will the Deity even grant it?), in my thoughts that shouldn't happen or a alignment change is imminent (or soon to come). With evil clerics, this might prove to be a much bigger problem, simply because evil deities might actually grant such egocentric requests simply to gain a powerful emissary of his faith in the material world (strong emissary of evil = more followers = happy evil deity :D). While i agree that Miracle is a strong spell, which resembles the "Tactical Nuke" aspect of the Wish spell, a Deity might just be whimsical enough not to perform the requested action, so the DM has much more control over it.
malignor 07-06-07, 10:51 AM	If I were you, I'd not worry about wish. Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) is what makes angels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) cry over spilled titans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm).