A magicless ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

A magicless ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
elven warriorXX
03-29-06, 12:10 PM I have been trying to make a magicless ranger. Anyone have any ideas on what Abilities should take place of spell casting? And no Bonus feats will not work because he he gains Bonus feats in place of the Combat styles. I want Hunter like Abilties but I have no idea were to start.

CURRENT CLASS TABLE
1)1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
2)Bonus feat, Wild healing
3)Endurance, Sudden Strike 1d6
4)Animal companion
5)2nd favored enemy, Ranged precision +1d6
6)Bonus feat
7)Woodland stride, Sudden Strike 2d6
8)Swift tracker
9)fast movement, Ranged precision +1d8
10)3rd favored enemy
11)Bonus feat
12)Sudden Strike 3d6
13)Camouflage
14)
15)4th favored enemy
16)Ranged precision +1d10
17)Hide in plain sight
18)Sudden Strike 4d6
19)
20)5th favored enemy

Ranged precision (ex): The ranger adds this bonus dice to his damage done with a bow when he is 30ft from the target or closer. He must take a Full round action to get the shot just right. This does not effect creatures immune to Critical hits

BONUS FEAT LISTS
PHB
Blind fight, Combat Expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Diehard, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed strike, Mounted combat, Mounted archery, Ride-by attack, Point blank shot (full tree), Quick draw, Run, Toughness, two-weapon fighting (full tree).

CA
Danger sense, Scent

CW
Dash, Defensive strike, Improved Favored enemy, Improved rapid shot, Improved Toughness, Sharp-shooting,
JadeSpider9643
03-29-06, 12:18 PM there's a non-spellcasting ranger variant in Complete Warrior, he gets a small variety of extra abilities.
Sir Knight
03-29-06, 01:48 PM Unearthed Arcana has another.
Alcalientre
03-29-06, 01:55 PM well, if you want a hunter type you could try looking at some of the class features for the Bloodhound prc (Complete Adventurer), but then again that's already a prc. Unless you're talking hunting animals, like a normal hunter, in which case I don't know what you should do besides favored enemy animal.
katarl
03-29-06, 01:57 PM Yep, I have worked on a magic-less ranger class variant, who surprisingly enough, was called a hunter. It got poison use, sudden strike and a really wierd traplaying ability, that allowed him to set snares up, that entangled/damaged foes. It gave up spells, companion, wild empathy, combat styles etc.

I wanted a ranger who didn't go in for all this save the trees stuff, just killing.

Have a look at the scout class from CA, instead.
Seldriss
03-29-06, 02:12 PM Some Ranger variants :

Archer Ranger
Craft/Bows & Arrows +2
Level 2 : Rapid Shot
Level 4 : Many Shot
Level 6 : Specialization/Bow
Level 8 : Improved precise Shot

Double Blade Ranger
Level 2 : Two Weapon Style
Level 4 : Improved Two Weapon Style
Level 6 : Weapon Specialization
Level 8 : Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Sneaky Ranger
Hide & Move Silently +2
Sneak Attack, as a Rogue of 2 levels lower
Evasion

Guerilla ranger
Jump & Tumbling +2
Fast movement, as a Barbarian
Skirmish, as a Scout of 2 levels lower

Wild Ranger
Intimidation (class skill), Survival +2
Fast movement, as a Barbarian
Rage, as a Barbarian

Feral Ranger
Handle Animal & Wild Empathy +2
Woodland Stride, as a Druid
Animal Shape, as a Druid
elven warriorXX
03-29-06, 02:16 PM I think some Hunter like abilties, The ability to change shape into 1 Animal at high levels, And fast movment would work. Thanks all. The CW one is underpowered and I want a more powerful one that fits the Theme of Ranger more. A Sudden strike would be good.
elven warriorXX
03-29-06, 02:33 PM How is this? I am thinking of Adding Healing touch (found in CW) to its abilites but I need some feed back.

1)1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
2)Bonus feat, Wild healing
3)Endurance, Sudden Strike 1d6
4)Animal companion
5)2nd favored enemy
6)Bonus feat
7)Woodland stride, Sudden Strike 2d6
8)Swift tracker
9)fast movement, Ranged precision +1d4
10)3rd favored enemy
11)Bonus feat
12)Sudden Strike 3d6
13)Camouflage
14)Healing touch
15)4th favored enemy
16)Ranged precision +1d6
17)Hide in plain sight
18)Sudden Strike 4d6
19)
20)5th favored enemy

BONUS FEAT LISTS
PHB
Blind fight, Combat Expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Diehard, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed strike, Mounted combat, Mounted archery, Ride-by attack, Point blank shot (full tree), Quick draw, Run, Toughness, two-weapon fighting (full tree).

CA
Danger sense, Scent

CW
Dash, Defensive strike, Improved Favored enemy, Improved rapid shot, Improved Toughness, Sharp-shooting,
MagicPrime
03-29-06, 06:00 PM Personally i find the Varient in the Unearthed Arcana guide the most balanced and best of the Non-Casting ranger class. There is also a non-casting paladin variant.
elven warriorXX
03-29-06, 06:51 PM Personally i find the Varient in the Unearthed Arcana guide the most balanced and best of the Non-Casting ranger class. There is also a non-casting paladin variant.
The Urban ranger?
How is my Magicless ranger? I will add a Survival ability and Healing Touch.
Shadowfax7
03-29-06, 07:51 PM IMC I use a spell-less variant ranger that replaces spell-casting w/non-magical abilities (unlike the CW variant).

1) Favored Enemy is replaced by Favored Environment (from UA)
2) Nature Sense is gained at 1st level
3) Wild Healing is gained at 2nd level (can use natural materials to heal wounds with a Heal check healing 1 hp/per point over DC 10 - from Warcraft RPG)
4) Trackless Step is gained at 4th level, but a Ranger of higher level can still track you with a –10 penalty
5) Sylvan Grace is gained at 6th level (reduces penalties to Hide and Move Silently checks in natural terrain to no penalty when moving full speed and -10 when running or charging - from EQ RPG)

The replacement of Favored Enemy with Favored Terrain is just preference, it doesn't matter which you use. They are balanced with each other.

You can also add a Combat Style at 16th level if you like . . . Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (a re-balanced feat by Lotus Crane) is a good choice, as it basically gives a 4th attack w/the off-hand, along with a comparable archery feat, such as Ranged Disarm from CW or something similar.

As far as your Ranger variant . . . it looks OK except for

14) Animal form 1/day
If you include this then your Ranger variant is spell-less, but not magic-less.

Try some other ability, such as the options in my post or in one of the other posts.

Also IMO, a bonus feat at 6th level along w/Sudden Strike 1d6 and Fast Movement at 7th level along with Woodland Stride are too much to gain at those levels.
elven warriorXX
03-29-06, 09:06 PM IMC I use a spell-less variant ranger that replaces spell-casting w/non-magical abilities (unlike the CW variant).

1) Favored Enemy is replaced by Favored Environment (from UA)
2) Nature Sense is gained at 1st level
3) Wild Healing is gained at 2nd level (can use natural materials to heal wounds with a Heal check healing 1 hp/per point over DC 10 - from Warcraft RPG)
4) Trackless Step is gained at 4th level, but a Ranger of higher level can still track you with a –10 penalty
5) Sylvan Grace is gained at 6th level (reduces penalties to Hide and Move Silently checks in natural terrain to no penalty when moving full speed and -10 when running or charging - from EQ RPG)

The replacement of Favored Enemy with Favored Terrain is just preference, it doesn't matter which you use. They are balanced with each other.

You can also add a Combat Style at 16th level if you like . . . Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (a re-balanced feat by Lotus Crane) is a good choice, as it basically gives a 4th attack w/the off-hand, along with a comparable archery feat, such as Ranged Disarm from CW or something similar.

As far as your Ranger variant . . . it looks OK except for

If you include this then your Ranger variant is spell-less, but not magic-less.

Try some other ability, such as the options in my post or in one of the other posts.

Also IMO, a bonus feat at 6th level along w/Sudden Strike 1d6 and Fast Movement at 7th level along with Woodland Stride are too much to gain at those levels.
I am using both Favored enemy and Favored Terrain. I use Lotus Crane's Ranger for a Magical based ranger. Okay then how should I balance out the table? Also I will take away the Animal Form and I would like to use Wild healing along with Healing touch (will make it a Ex ability by having him use Herbs) at a high level.
Dipteran_Legacy
03-30-06, 12:32 AM I agree with cutting the animal form.

I'd give something like a minor move bonus....maybe +5 feet every five levels?
also, 3d6 sudden strike isnt very valuable. I'd up it to 1d6 per 4 levels, or 5d6 at level 20. it's only when they're flat-footed, after all. and 5d6 still isnt a whole lot.

Radical taoist had a really awesome ranger variant. he usually lurks around the psionic boards, but you might be able to catch him in the char op's too.....

it had "tricks" or something like that.... similar to a ninja's Ki abilities.....it was balanced against the magic-using classes, though, not the combat classes, so at high levels it outstripped the fighter obsecenely.

still, it might be a good place to start, if you like your classes a little more advanced and complicated than the default ones. and if you want a non-magical class that's as impressive as wizards and clerics at high levels, then by all means, just use it as-is...

hopefully this has been some help to you. If I wasnt quite so lazy I'd type out a detailed account of my own non-magic ranger, but well....
;)
elven warriorXX
03-30-06, 10:00 AM I agree with cutting the animal form.

I'd give something like a minor move bonus....maybe +5 feet every five levels?
also, 3d6 sudden strike isnt very valuable. I'd up it to 1d6 per 4 levels, or 5d6 at level 20. it's only when they're flat-footed, after all. and 5d6 still isnt a whole lot.

Radical taoist had a really awesome ranger variant. he usually lurks around the psionic boards, but you might be able to catch him in the char op's too.....

it had "tricks" or something like that.... similar to a ninja's Ki abilities.....it was balanced against the magic-using classes, though, not the combat classes, so at high levels it outstripped the fighter obsecenely.

still, it might be a good place to start, if you like your classes a little more advanced and complicated than the default ones. and if you want a non-magical class that's as impressive as wizards and clerics at high levels, then by all means, just use it as-is...

hopefully this has been some help to you. If I wasnt quite so lazy I'd type out a detailed account of my own non-magic ranger, but well....
;)
Thats okay :) I will modify my Ranger above based on your Suggestions.
Shadowfax7
03-30-06, 12:39 PM I didn't get to post a reply to your questions prior to your changes, but I must point out an error with Wild Healing . . .

Here is Wild Healing, paraphrased:

WILD HEALING
With 5 ranks in the Survival skill you can use natural materials found in the wilderness to heal wounds. You make a DC 15 Survival check representing 1 hour of searching for and preparing roots, rare leaves, berries and other such materials used for a natural brew or poultice. Once the subject ingests or applies the concoction (as appropriate), you make a DC 10 Heal check.
The subject recovers 1 hit point of damage for every point that the roll exceeds 10. Wild healing affects a single subject per attempt and the same subject benefits from the concoction only once per day. In addition, you gain a +5 competence bonus to the Heal check at 6th level. This bonus applies only to Heal checks made for Wild Healing and increases by 5 for every 4 levels thereafter; +10 bonus at 10th level, +15 bonus at 14th level and +20 bonus at 18th level.

As you can see it should be an ability granted at 2nd level, otherwise you must modify it appropriately as it scales w/levels.

Now as far as your other changes, IMO you have gone overboard w/5 bonus feats and retaining double abilities at certain levels. How about 3 bonus feats to replace the 3 Combat Style feats of the Ranger.

The Ranger's spells are not that powerful and aren't worth as much as all the abilities you are giving. They are worth 4 feats or feat-like abilities at best. Check out the CW and UA variants for balance.

Both Evasion and Fast Movement at 9th level is too much, one or the other should remain.

Also the Survivalist ability is more powerful than a feat . . . it's unbalanced, unless you limit the bonus to a certain aspect of Survival, such as tracking or Fort saves against severe weather.

For the loss of Combat Style and spells, your variant magic-less Ranger should get no more than 7 feats or feat-like abilities.
elven warriorXX
03-30-06, 12:50 PM I didn't get to post a reply to your questions prior to your changes, but I must point out an error with Wild Healing . . .

Here is Wild Healing, paraphrased:

WILD HEALING
With 5 ranks in the Survival skill you can use natural materials found in the wilderness to heal wounds. You make a DC 15 Survival check representing 1 hour of searching for and preparing roots, rare leaves, berries and other such materials used for a natural brew or poultice. Once the subject ingests or applies the concoction (as appropriate), you make a DC 10 Heal check.
The subject recovers 1 hit point of damage for every point that the roll exceeds 10. Wild healing affects a single subject per attempt and the same subject benefits from the concoction only once per day. In addition, you gain a +5 competence bonus to the Heal check at 6th level. This bonus applies only to Heal checks made for Wild Healing and increases by 5 for every 4 levels thereafter; +10 bonus at 10th level, +15 bonus at 14th level and +20 bonus at 18th level.

As you can see it should be an ability granted at 2nd level, otherwise you must modify it appropriately as it scales w/levels.

Now as far as your other changes, IMO you have gone overboard w/5 bonus feats and retaining double abilities at certain levels. How about 3 bonus feats to replace the 3 Combat Style feats of the Ranger.

The Ranger's spells are not that powerful and aren't worth as much as all the abilities you are giving. They are worth 4 feats or feat-like abilities at best. Check out the CW and UA variants for balance.

Both Evasion and Fast Movement at 9th level is too much, one or the other should remain.

Also the Survivalist ability is more powerful than a feat . . . it's unbalanced, unless you limit the bonus to a certain aspect of Survival, such as tracking or Fort saves against severe weather.

For the loss of Combat Style and spells, your variant magic-less Ranger should get no more than 7 feats or feat-like abilities.
Okay thanks for the Info. I will take away some Bonus feats and fix it a bit. Tell me what you think of the new version.
elven warriorXX
03-30-06, 05:35 PM Fixed it around some more and added Bonus feat list. The Ranged precision may be abit much. It does not work with Sudden strike and he must take a Full round action instead of a Standard action.
Shadowfax7
03-30-06, 06:18 PM Why add Ranged Precision . . . it's not like the class needs more ??

You also didn't have to remove Evasion altogether, unless you want to for your concept of a hunter.

What I was saying is that Fast Movement or Evasion by themselves are good enough for a level.

What about Fast Movement @ 6th (same as CW) and Evasion at 9th (same as core).

Up to now you have removed the Combat Styles and spells and added 3 bonus feats (OK), Wild Healing, Fast Movement, Healing Touch (a magical ability which goes against the concept of a non-magical Ranger), Ranged Precision 1d4 and 1d6 and Sudden Strike 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 and 4d6.

It's a bit much, don't you think.
elven warriorXX
03-30-06, 07:22 PM Why add Ranged Precision . . . it's not like the class needs more ??

You also didn't have to remove Evasion altogether, unless you want to for your concept of a hunter.

What I was saying is that Fast Movement or Evasion by themselves are good enough for a level.

What about Fast Movement @ 6th (same as CW) and Evasion at 9th (same as core).

Up to now you have removed the Combat Styles and spells and added 3 bonus feats (OK), Wild Healing, Fast Movement, Healing Touch (a magical ability which goes against the concept of a non-magical Ranger), Ranged Precision 1d4 and 1d6 and Sudden Strike 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 and 4d6.

It's a bit much, don't you think.
It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger and it gets 2 more Combat style abilties and a good Ref save so that is 3 more abilites, The 3 bonus feats are in place of the Combat styles, I don't think Evasion fits the Ranger flavor. The Healing touch, Wild healing, and Fast movment, and the Sudden strike is in place of the Spells. The Ranged Precision makes the ranger naturally good at the bow, without having to take feats, and takes up the Slot of the Ref save. I may even make it a bit more powerful (deal up to +1d8 damage) just to replace the Evasion being removed. See it all fits :)
Jhaelen
03-31-06, 07:59 AM It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger
Umm, you do realize, that Lotus Crane's Rebalancing project involves changes to all existing base classes? In other words, if you only introduce one of them, but not the others, you end up with a completely unbalanced system, where the Ranger is more powerful than all other classes...
elven warriorXX
03-31-06, 09:44 AM I am using all of them. The entire system. And it works good.
SKRP
03-31-06, 10:37 AM I honestly recommend Szatany's Ultimate Ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169174) . It's very adaptable variant of classical ranger.
elven warriorXX
03-31-06, 10:45 AM The Ultimate ranger rocks.
SKRP
03-31-06, 11:05 AM Yes, I really like him. His special abilities (for example Evade enemy) have more flavor then standard ranger’s evasion.
elven warriorXX
03-31-06, 11:21 AM Indeed it makes him powerful when fighting his favored enemy
Shadowfax7
03-31-06, 01:08 PM It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger and it gets 2 more Combat style abilties and a good Ref save so that is 3 more abilites, The 3 bonus feats are in place of the Combat styles, I don't think Evasion fits the Ranger flavor. The Healing touch, Wild healing, and Fast movment, and the Sudden strike is in place of the Spells. The Ranged Precision makes the ranger naturally good at the bow, without having to take feats, and takes up the Slot of the Ref save. I may even make it a bit more powerful (deal up to +1d8 damage) just to replace the Evasion being removed. See it all fits :)
Makes more sense now that you mentioned you are trying to balance your magic-less Ranger against Lotus Crane's re-balanced Ranger.

OK, note that the good Ref save is not an add'l ability, it's part of the core Ranger. So, no add'l ability should be given for this.

Also, if you want to add Ranged Precision 1d8, fine, but Healing Touch has no place in a magic-less Ranger. Then it becomes a spell-less Ranger variant such as the one in CW.

And I am not one to disagree that Evasion is not very Ranger-like, so if you want leave it out.
elven warriorXX
03-31-06, 01:36 PM Okay I will make the Final modified one above and if no one posts about it in 2 days I will make a thread about it for the Final version. Thanks for the help.
elven warriorXX
04-03-06, 02:22 PM Last day to make Comments :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
elven warriorXX 03-29-06, 12:10 PM	I have been trying to make a magicless ranger. Anyone have any ideas on what Abilities should take place of spell casting? And no Bonus feats will not work because he he gains Bonus feats in place of the Combat styles. I want Hunter like Abilties but I have no idea were to start. CURRENT CLASS TABLE 1)1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy 2)Bonus feat, Wild healing 3)Endurance, Sudden Strike 1d6 4)Animal companion 5)2nd favored enemy, Ranged precision +1d6 6)Bonus feat 7)Woodland stride, Sudden Strike 2d6 8)Swift tracker 9)fast movement, Ranged precision +1d8 10)3rd favored enemy 11)Bonus feat 12)Sudden Strike 3d6 13)Camouflage 14) 15)4th favored enemy 16)Ranged precision +1d10 17)Hide in plain sight 18)Sudden Strike 4d6 19) 20)5th favored enemy Ranged precision (ex): The ranger adds this bonus dice to his damage done with a bow when he is 30ft from the target or closer. He must take a Full round action to get the shot just right. This does not effect creatures immune to Critical hits BONUS FEAT LISTS PHB Blind fight, Combat Expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Diehard, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed strike, Mounted combat, Mounted archery, Ride-by attack, Point blank shot (full tree), Quick draw, Run, Toughness, two-weapon fighting (full tree). CA Danger sense, Scent CW Dash, Defensive strike, Improved Favored enemy, Improved rapid shot, Improved Toughness, Sharp-shooting,
JadeSpider9643 03-29-06, 12:18 PM	there's a non-spellcasting ranger variant in Complete Warrior, he gets a small variety of extra abilities.
Sir Knight 03-29-06, 01:48 PM	Unearthed Arcana has another.
Alcalientre 03-29-06, 01:55 PM	well, if you want a hunter type you could try looking at some of the class features for the Bloodhound prc (Complete Adventurer), but then again that's already a prc. Unless you're talking hunting animals, like a normal hunter, in which case I don't know what you should do besides favored enemy animal.
katarl 03-29-06, 01:57 PM	Yep, I have worked on a magic-less ranger class variant, who surprisingly enough, was called a hunter. It got poison use, sudden strike and a really wierd traplaying ability, that allowed him to set snares up, that entangled/damaged foes. It gave up spells, companion, wild empathy, combat styles etc. I wanted a ranger who didn't go in for all this save the trees stuff, just killing. Have a look at the scout class from CA, instead.
Seldriss 03-29-06, 02:12 PM	Some Ranger variants : Archer Ranger Craft/Bows & Arrows +2 Level 2 : Rapid Shot Level 4 : Many Shot Level 6 : Specialization/Bow Level 8 : Improved precise Shot Double Blade Ranger Level 2 : Two Weapon Style Level 4 : Improved Two Weapon Style Level 6 : Weapon Specialization Level 8 : Greater Two Weapon Fighting Sneaky Ranger Hide & Move Silently +2 Sneak Attack, as a Rogue of 2 levels lower Evasion Guerilla ranger Jump & Tumbling +2 Fast movement, as a Barbarian Skirmish, as a Scout of 2 levels lower Wild Ranger Intimidation (class skill), Survival +2 Fast movement, as a Barbarian Rage, as a Barbarian Feral Ranger Handle Animal & Wild Empathy +2 Woodland Stride, as a Druid Animal Shape, as a Druid
elven warriorXX 03-29-06, 02:16 PM	I think some Hunter like abilties, The ability to change shape into 1 Animal at high levels, And fast movment would work. Thanks all. The CW one is underpowered and I want a more powerful one that fits the Theme of Ranger more. A Sudden strike would be good.
elven warriorXX 03-29-06, 02:33 PM	How is this? I am thinking of Adding Healing touch (found in CW) to its abilites but I need some feed back. 1)1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy 2)Bonus feat, Wild healing 3)Endurance, Sudden Strike 1d6 4)Animal companion 5)2nd favored enemy 6)Bonus feat 7)Woodland stride, Sudden Strike 2d6 8)Swift tracker 9)fast movement, Ranged precision +1d4 10)3rd favored enemy 11)Bonus feat 12)Sudden Strike 3d6 13)Camouflage 14)Healing touch 15)4th favored enemy 16)Ranged precision +1d6 17)Hide in plain sight 18)Sudden Strike 4d6 19) 20)5th favored enemy BONUS FEAT LISTS PHB Blind fight, Combat Expertise, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Diehard, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed strike, Mounted combat, Mounted archery, Ride-by attack, Point blank shot (full tree), Quick draw, Run, Toughness, two-weapon fighting (full tree). CA Danger sense, Scent CW Dash, Defensive strike, Improved Favored enemy, Improved rapid shot, Improved Toughness, Sharp-shooting,
MagicPrime 03-29-06, 06:00 PM	Personally i find the Varient in the Unearthed Arcana guide the most balanced and best of the Non-Casting ranger class. There is also a non-casting paladin variant.
elven warriorXX 03-29-06, 06:51 PM	Personally i find the Varient in the Unearthed Arcana guide the most balanced and best of the Non-Casting ranger class. There is also a non-casting paladin variant. The Urban ranger? How is my Magicless ranger? I will add a Survival ability and Healing Touch.
Shadowfax7 03-29-06, 07:51 PM	IMC I use a spell-less variant ranger that replaces spell-casting w/non-magical abilities (unlike the CW variant). 1) Favored Enemy is replaced by Favored Environment (from UA) 2) Nature Sense is gained at 1st level 3) Wild Healing is gained at 2nd level (can use natural materials to heal wounds with a Heal check healing 1 hp/per point over DC 10 - from Warcraft RPG) 4) Trackless Step is gained at 4th level, but a Ranger of higher level can still track you with a –10 penalty 5) Sylvan Grace is gained at 6th level (reduces penalties to Hide and Move Silently checks in natural terrain to no penalty when moving full speed and -10 when running or charging - from EQ RPG) The replacement of Favored Enemy with Favored Terrain is just preference, it doesn't matter which you use. They are balanced with each other. You can also add a Combat Style at 16th level if you like . . . Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (a re-balanced feat by Lotus Crane) is a good choice, as it basically gives a 4th attack w/the off-hand, along with a comparable archery feat, such as Ranged Disarm from CW or something similar. As far as your Ranger variant . . . it looks OK except for 14) Animal form 1/day If you include this then your Ranger variant is spell-less, but not magic-less. Try some other ability, such as the options in my post or in one of the other posts. Also IMO, a bonus feat at 6th level along w/Sudden Strike 1d6 and Fast Movement at 7th level along with Woodland Stride are too much to gain at those levels.
elven warriorXX 03-29-06, 09:06 PM	IMC I use a spell-less variant ranger that replaces spell-casting w/non-magical abilities (unlike the CW variant). 1) Favored Enemy is replaced by Favored Environment (from UA) 2) Nature Sense is gained at 1st level 3) Wild Healing is gained at 2nd level (can use natural materials to heal wounds with a Heal check healing 1 hp/per point over DC 10 - from Warcraft RPG) 4) Trackless Step is gained at 4th level, but a Ranger of higher level can still track you with a –10 penalty 5) Sylvan Grace is gained at 6th level (reduces penalties to Hide and Move Silently checks in natural terrain to no penalty when moving full speed and -10 when running or charging - from EQ RPG) The replacement of Favored Enemy with Favored Terrain is just preference, it doesn't matter which you use. They are balanced with each other. You can also add a Combat Style at 16th level if you like . . . Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (a re-balanced feat by Lotus Crane) is a good choice, as it basically gives a 4th attack w/the off-hand, along with a comparable archery feat, such as Ranged Disarm from CW or something similar. As far as your Ranger variant . . . it looks OK except for If you include this then your Ranger variant is spell-less, but not magic-less. Try some other ability, such as the options in my post or in one of the other posts. Also IMO, a bonus feat at 6th level along w/Sudden Strike 1d6 and Fast Movement at 7th level along with Woodland Stride are too much to gain at those levels. I am using both Favored enemy and Favored Terrain. I use Lotus Crane's Ranger for a Magical based ranger. Okay then how should I balance out the table? Also I will take away the Animal Form and I would like to use Wild healing along with Healing touch (will make it a Ex ability by having him use Herbs) at a high level.
Dipteran_Legacy 03-30-06, 12:32 AM	I agree with cutting the animal form. I'd give something like a minor move bonus....maybe +5 feet every five levels? also, 3d6 sudden strike isnt very valuable. I'd up it to 1d6 per 4 levels, or 5d6 at level 20. it's only when they're flat-footed, after all. and 5d6 still isnt a whole lot. Radical taoist had a really awesome ranger variant. he usually lurks around the psionic boards, but you might be able to catch him in the char op's too..... it had "tricks" or something like that.... similar to a ninja's Ki abilities.....it was balanced against the magic-using classes, though, not the combat classes, so at high levels it outstripped the fighter obsecenely. still, it might be a good place to start, if you like your classes a little more advanced and complicated than the default ones. and if you want a non-magical class that's as impressive as wizards and clerics at high levels, then by all means, just use it as-is... hopefully this has been some help to you. If I wasnt quite so lazy I'd type out a detailed account of my own non-magic ranger, but well.... ;)
elven warriorXX 03-30-06, 10:00 AM	I agree with cutting the animal form. I'd give something like a minor move bonus....maybe +5 feet every five levels? also, 3d6 sudden strike isnt very valuable. I'd up it to 1d6 per 4 levels, or 5d6 at level 20. it's only when they're flat-footed, after all. and 5d6 still isnt a whole lot. Radical taoist had a really awesome ranger variant. he usually lurks around the psionic boards, but you might be able to catch him in the char op's too..... it had "tricks" or something like that.... similar to a ninja's Ki abilities.....it was balanced against the magic-using classes, though, not the combat classes, so at high levels it outstripped the fighter obsecenely. still, it might be a good place to start, if you like your classes a little more advanced and complicated than the default ones. and if you want a non-magical class that's as impressive as wizards and clerics at high levels, then by all means, just use it as-is... hopefully this has been some help to you. If I wasnt quite so lazy I'd type out a detailed account of my own non-magic ranger, but well.... ;) Thats okay :) I will modify my Ranger above based on your Suggestions.
Shadowfax7 03-30-06, 12:39 PM	I didn't get to post a reply to your questions prior to your changes, but I must point out an error with Wild Healing . . . Here is Wild Healing, paraphrased: WILD HEALING With 5 ranks in the Survival skill you can use natural materials found in the wilderness to heal wounds. You make a DC 15 Survival check representing 1 hour of searching for and preparing roots, rare leaves, berries and other such materials used for a natural brew or poultice. Once the subject ingests or applies the concoction (as appropriate), you make a DC 10 Heal check. The subject recovers 1 hit point of damage for every point that the roll exceeds 10. Wild healing affects a single subject per attempt and the same subject benefits from the concoction only once per day. In addition, you gain a +5 competence bonus to the Heal check at 6th level. This bonus applies only to Heal checks made for Wild Healing and increases by 5 for every 4 levels thereafter; +10 bonus at 10th level, +15 bonus at 14th level and +20 bonus at 18th level. As you can see it should be an ability granted at 2nd level, otherwise you must modify it appropriately as it scales w/levels. Now as far as your other changes, IMO you have gone overboard w/5 bonus feats and retaining double abilities at certain levels. How about 3 bonus feats to replace the 3 Combat Style feats of the Ranger. The Ranger's spells are not that powerful and aren't worth as much as all the abilities you are giving. They are worth 4 feats or feat-like abilities at best. Check out the CW and UA variants for balance. Both Evasion and Fast Movement at 9th level is too much, one or the other should remain. Also the Survivalist ability is more powerful than a feat . . . it's unbalanced, unless you limit the bonus to a certain aspect of Survival, such as tracking or Fort saves against severe weather. For the loss of Combat Style and spells, your variant magic-less Ranger should get no more than 7 feats or feat-like abilities.
elven warriorXX 03-30-06, 12:50 PM	I didn't get to post a reply to your questions prior to your changes, but I must point out an error with Wild Healing . . . Here is Wild Healing, paraphrased: WILD HEALING With 5 ranks in the Survival skill you can use natural materials found in the wilderness to heal wounds. You make a DC 15 Survival check representing 1 hour of searching for and preparing roots, rare leaves, berries and other such materials used for a natural brew or poultice. Once the subject ingests or applies the concoction (as appropriate), you make a DC 10 Heal check. The subject recovers 1 hit point of damage for every point that the roll exceeds 10. Wild healing affects a single subject per attempt and the same subject benefits from the concoction only once per day. In addition, you gain a +5 competence bonus to the Heal check at 6th level. This bonus applies only to Heal checks made for Wild Healing and increases by 5 for every 4 levels thereafter; +10 bonus at 10th level, +15 bonus at 14th level and +20 bonus at 18th level. As you can see it should be an ability granted at 2nd level, otherwise you must modify it appropriately as it scales w/levels. Now as far as your other changes, IMO you have gone overboard w/5 bonus feats and retaining double abilities at certain levels. How about 3 bonus feats to replace the 3 Combat Style feats of the Ranger. The Ranger's spells are not that powerful and aren't worth as much as all the abilities you are giving. They are worth 4 feats or feat-like abilities at best. Check out the CW and UA variants for balance. Both Evasion and Fast Movement at 9th level is too much, one or the other should remain. Also the Survivalist ability is more powerful than a feat . . . it's unbalanced, unless you limit the bonus to a certain aspect of Survival, such as tracking or Fort saves against severe weather. For the loss of Combat Style and spells, your variant magic-less Ranger should get no more than 7 feats or feat-like abilities. Okay thanks for the Info. I will take away some Bonus feats and fix it a bit. Tell me what you think of the new version.
elven warriorXX 03-30-06, 05:35 PM	Fixed it around some more and added Bonus feat list. The Ranged precision may be abit much. It does not work with Sudden strike and he must take a Full round action instead of a Standard action.
Shadowfax7 03-30-06, 06:18 PM	Why add Ranged Precision . . . it's not like the class needs more ?? You also didn't have to remove Evasion altogether, unless you want to for your concept of a hunter. What I was saying is that Fast Movement or Evasion by themselves are good enough for a level. What about Fast Movement @ 6th (same as CW) and Evasion at 9th (same as core). Up to now you have removed the Combat Styles and spells and added 3 bonus feats (OK), Wild Healing, Fast Movement, Healing Touch (a magical ability which goes against the concept of a non-magical Ranger), Ranged Precision 1d4 and 1d6 and Sudden Strike 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 and 4d6. It's a bit much, don't you think.
elven warriorXX 03-30-06, 07:22 PM	Why add Ranged Precision . . . it's not like the class needs more ?? You also didn't have to remove Evasion altogether, unless you want to for your concept of a hunter. What I was saying is that Fast Movement or Evasion by themselves are good enough for a level. What about Fast Movement @ 6th (same as CW) and Evasion at 9th (same as core). Up to now you have removed the Combat Styles and spells and added 3 bonus feats (OK), Wild Healing, Fast Movement, Healing Touch (a magical ability which goes against the concept of a non-magical Ranger), Ranged Precision 1d4 and 1d6 and Sudden Strike 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 and 4d6. It's a bit much, don't you think. It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger and it gets 2 more Combat style abilties and a good Ref save so that is 3 more abilites, The 3 bonus feats are in place of the Combat styles, I don't think Evasion fits the Ranger flavor. The Healing touch, Wild healing, and Fast movment, and the Sudden strike is in place of the Spells. The Ranged Precision makes the ranger naturally good at the bow, without having to take feats, and takes up the Slot of the Ref save. I may even make it a bit more powerful (deal up to +1d8 damage) just to replace the Evasion being removed. See it all fits :)
Jhaelen 03-31-06, 07:59 AM	It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger Umm, you do realize, that Lotus Crane's Rebalancing project involves changes to all existing base classes? In other words, if you only introduce one of them, but not the others, you end up with a completely unbalanced system, where the Ranger is more powerful than all other classes...
elven warriorXX 03-31-06, 09:44 AM	I am using all of them. The entire system. And it works good.
SKRP 03-31-06, 10:37 AM	I honestly recommend Szatany's Ultimate Ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169174) . It's very adaptable variant of classical ranger.
elven warriorXX 03-31-06, 10:45 AM	The Ultimate ranger rocks.
SKRP 03-31-06, 11:05 AM	Yes, I really like him. His special abilities (for example Evade enemy) have more flavor then standard ranger’s evasion.
elven warriorXX 03-31-06, 11:21 AM	Indeed it makes him powerful when fighting his favored enemy
Shadowfax7 03-31-06, 01:08 PM	It does seem a bit much but I am using Lotus Cranes Ranger for a magical ranger and it gets 2 more Combat style abilties and a good Ref save so that is 3 more abilites, The 3 bonus feats are in place of the Combat styles, I don't think Evasion fits the Ranger flavor. The Healing touch, Wild healing, and Fast movment, and the Sudden strike is in place of the Spells. The Ranged Precision makes the ranger naturally good at the bow, without having to take feats, and takes up the Slot of the Ref save. I may even make it a bit more powerful (deal up to +1d8 damage) just to replace the Evasion being removed. See it all fits :) Makes more sense now that you mentioned you are trying to balance your magic-less Ranger against Lotus Crane's re-balanced Ranger. OK, note that the good Ref save is not an add'l ability, it's part of the core Ranger. So, no add'l ability should be given for this. Also, if you want to add Ranged Precision 1d8, fine, but Healing Touch has no place in a magic-less Ranger. Then it becomes a spell-less Ranger variant such as the one in CW. And I am not one to disagree that Evasion is not very Ranger-like, so if you want leave it out.
elven warriorXX 03-31-06, 01:36 PM	Okay I will make the Final modified one above and if no one posts about it in 2 days I will make a thread about it for the Final version. Thanks for the help.
elven warriorXX 04-03-06, 02:22 PM	Last day to make Comments :)