A marshal in a 3 man team, pointless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A marshal in a 3 man team, pointless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gristler2716
10-26-04, 08:23 AM We are about to create a new group and for roleplay reasons I think that the Marshal class best suits what my character is about.

However, as you may guess from the title this is only a 3 man team and I gather that Marshals are essentially most useful in a support role of a larger party.

Any thoughts on how to make a marshal useful in a 3 man team, if indeed it is possible? Multi classing? Feats to take?

Anything at all.
digoraccoon
10-26-04, 08:37 AM What class are the other two in your party?

I interpret the marshal as a support type fighter. Not the classical type of leader that leads the front lines in a charge, but the warrior behind the front row rallying his troops into the battle. Perhaps the marshall would be a good bowman working right behind a front line fighter type as the archery support?
gristler2716
10-26-04, 10:08 AM one of the other characters is a mage, the other is undecided as yet but will proabably (hopfully) be either a fighter or cleric,

the bow idea was something i had been toying with, with the possibilty of taking some levels as a rouge. Not your traditional theifly rouge mind you
Kabol
10-26-04, 11:06 AM If you want to play a supporting char < and supporting can really shine! so dont think your just second fiddle > grab up a spiked chain or whip - and get your Art or War minor aura - you add yoru Chr bonuse to trip - disarm - sunder and bull rush - thats awsome.

If your fighting alot of armed creatures < which is 99% of lower lvls > you can render them almost useless with trips and disarms.

Motovate Dex - add Chr to Init. chack - thats awsome!

Over the Top - Add Chr to Dmg when charging - agian - awsome!

Marshal may be second string - but hes Never second fiddle - hes great in small teams - and great in large. you hit more people in large - but they still have the same bonuses. Marshals can also tank decently - they can have shields and all armor - simple and martial weapons. They can easly waid into combat with no fears
gristler2716
10-26-04, 12:07 PM hmmm, sounds interesting, kind of a tactical fighter but with support skills to make his and team mates more powerful.

any thoughts on good prc's or indeed multi classing the character in general?
eggplantm
10-26-04, 12:21 PM hmmm, sounds interesting, kind of a tactical fighter but with support skills to make his and team mates more powerful.

any thoughts on good prc's or indeed multi classing the character in general?

I like the marshall but unfortunately because the abilities are fairly unique there are no prc's that enhance or continue a marshall's abilities directly. There are also no feats specific to the marshall. You will have to make up any on your own.
Tweedledope
10-26-04, 09:25 PM I know this isn't necessarily the best place to post this but does anyone have any good Marshall builds (ie, feat progressions)? I know there aren't any PrCs for the Marshall but, what are some good ideas if I wish to create one.

Tweedledope
GypsyComet
11-30-04, 01:43 AM The Marshall is fairly flexible, so the best feat tracks are going to depend on his early Aura choices, as well as his other characteristics (like weapon choices or multi-classes).

Good general Marshall enhancers would include Diehard (PHB), and Kiai Shout (CW), because staying conscious (and thus maintaining your auras) is good, and being able to stick your opponents with penalties while also enhancing your allies is quite useful.

For the Marshall who is mixing it up in melee, Pack Tactics (Dragon 313) can be another useful tool.

The Epic feats for the Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20031206a better get it while you can) do suggest a few non-Epic feats, such as some sort of Aura Echo that would allow an Aura's effects to persist for someone who left the effect radius. One round would be appropriate, with a Greater Aura Echo lasting three rounds (making the Epic version "Lasting Aura", at a minute, fall in line fairly smoothly).
Unfortunately, the ability to maintain more than the two normal Auras seems to have been relegated to Epic level feats, as has the ability to expand the radius.

Another Aura Feat I could see would be Aura Focus, which would increase the bonus provided by a specific Minor Aura by +1. Obviously, Greater Aura Focus could be read to either do the same for a specific Major Aura or improve a specific Minor Aura by +2, and naturally would require Aura Focus as a prereq.

Then there's the possibility of the Extra Grant Move Action, or the Hasty Grant Move action (the grant becoming a Swift action for the Marshall instead of a Standard).

The caveat here is that I haven't actually looked at the MHB. These are just derived from looking at the posted preview of the Marshall from last year...
Ipsissimus
11-30-04, 08:40 AM Your mage and/or cleric could always use summoning spells which would be legal targets for your Auras. Now your 3 man team becomes a small army.

I like the marshal though it could easily be a 10 lvl PrC. I'm sure it will be reprinted somewhere down the line and get some feats added to them. It happens all the time and more common recently with the complete books.

If you can, the Leadership feat is ideal for a Marshal. Assuming you have a high Cha.
malisteen
11-30-04, 09:53 AM Short answer: The marshal, like the bard, is flat out better in larger parties.

Long answer: It really depends on your team's makeup. If you're going about with a sorcerer and a rogue, then your team is going to have some trouble. If you're fighting with an urban ranger and an psion, it will be tough, but you should be able to pull through.

Remember that your auras affect any ally who can hear and understand you and has Int 3 or higher. Summoned monsters typically fit into that category, undead don't until high levels, Cohorts do, and natures allies typically don't until mid levels or higher. Remember that most animals, even dire animals, don't have the necessary Int.

In a party of 3, your DM should be willing to let one or more of you grab the leadership feat at level 6, and I would reccomend that for your character.

Otherwise, multiclassing, at least early on, may be a good idea.

here's one build idea, human character, based on the spiked chain reference above.

level 1, marshal, exotic proficiency [chain], combat reflexes
level 2, fighter, combat expertise
level 3, marshal, improved disarm
level 4, fighter, improved trip
level 5, fighter
level 6, marshal, leadership (fighter or healer cohort)
level 7, fighter, power attack
level 8, marshal
level 9, marshal, weapon focus [chain]
level 10, exotic weapon master (CW), exotic reach
level 11, EWM, flurry of strikes
level 12, marshal, weapon specialization [chain]
level 13, mashal
level 14, marshal
level 15, marshal, mage slayer
level 16, marshal
level 17, marshal
level 18, marshal, pierce magical protection
level 19, marshal
level 20, marshal

early minor auras to take include Art of War and Motivate Dexterity, while early major auras should probably include motivate ardor or hardy soldiers, followed by motivate attack or motivate ergency. This build gets you up to marshal level 14 at level 20, giving you major aura +3, grant move action 3/day, 6 minor auras known, and 4 major auras known, which is probably all you'll really ever use.

This probably isn't the best build you can come up with for a marshal, I've only bought the minis handbook yesterday, so I'm not very familiar with the class or it's abilities yet, and I've never seen it in action. But it is an example of a build someone might come up with for a marshal in a small party where the character would also have to cover other bases (in this case melee expert geared towards defending a backlining mage).

The main weakness of this build, as I see it, are the increadible stats required (a common weakness of chain builds in general). For this your character would need an int 13+, a con 13+, a good cha (14+), a good strength (14+), and a good dex (14+). the only stat you could dump is wisdom.

It should be said that several classes do well dipping a level or two of marshal, both ability-wise and thematically, including fighter, ranger, hexblade, paladin, and eberron's artificer. Warlock could also probably do well from a level or two, and maybe even warmage, cleric, or psionic warrior. So what you may want instead of a primarily marshal build is a primarily something else build that dips marshal for diplomatic and leadership ability, and maybe human paragon (UA) to keep diplomacy as a class skill for all classes. Something to think about.
cowdragon
11-30-04, 10:10 AM I've played Marshals before and they rock. In fact my wife had a Fighter/Marshal/Battle Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. She got that Lightning Maces feat and did more damage than anybody else! So yes, they do tank very well. They also motivate the group(even a small one) to bigger and better hieghts.

Here's the build.

Marshal 5(you really only need a couple auras)/Fighter 4(for weapon specialization)/Battle Sorcerer 1(to qualify for...)/Dragon Disciple 10. I suggest taking tripping feats or sundering or grappling. Another good option are the Draconic Feats from Complete Arcane. If you go that way though I'd go Marshal2/Battle Sorcerer8/Dragon Disciple10.

The reason for this is you can get a free claw attack after you cast true strike and then pump a 4th level spell into an arcane strike at the same time. Massive damage! Also, you look really cool. You've got some utility spells. A couple auras(1 minor one major), blindsense(which really helps your group actually), wings, natural armour, and a breath weapon if needed. The marshal is really handy for this. Otherwise, here's a non-draconic build that SHOULD synergize well.

Marshal 10/Suel Archanamach10. This will give you great auras/abilities from the Marshal(like motivate move actions), and the spells and armour use of the archanamach. Dispelling hit. Spontanious casting. Both classes are cha based fighter types. Should work well. Take the route my wife took and go with Lightning Maces/Wpn Focus Maces/Imp Critical Mace/Two-Wpn Fighting... you'd be suprised how many 19-20's you can roll in one rounds worth of attacks! I've seen her get 10 attacks/round. Granted, there was alot of high rolls. Hmmm...maybe I should take her to Vegas. ;)

Good Luck,

The Cowdragon :mage:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gristler2716 10-26-04, 08:23 AM	We are about to create a new group and for roleplay reasons I think that the Marshal class best suits what my character is about. However, as you may guess from the title this is only a 3 man team and I gather that Marshals are essentially most useful in a support role of a larger party. Any thoughts on how to make a marshal useful in a 3 man team, if indeed it is possible? Multi classing? Feats to take? Anything at all.
digoraccoon 10-26-04, 08:37 AM	What class are the other two in your party? I interpret the marshal as a support type fighter. Not the classical type of leader that leads the front lines in a charge, but the warrior behind the front row rallying his troops into the battle. Perhaps the marshall would be a good bowman working right behind a front line fighter type as the archery support?
gristler2716 10-26-04, 10:08 AM	one of the other characters is a mage, the other is undecided as yet but will proabably (hopfully) be either a fighter or cleric, the bow idea was something i had been toying with, with the possibilty of taking some levels as a rouge. Not your traditional theifly rouge mind you
Kabol 10-26-04, 11:06 AM	If you want to play a supporting char < and supporting can really shine! so dont think your just second fiddle > grab up a spiked chain or whip - and get your Art or War minor aura - you add yoru Chr bonuse to trip - disarm - sunder and bull rush - thats awsome. If your fighting alot of armed creatures < which is 99% of lower lvls > you can render them almost useless with trips and disarms. Motovate Dex - add Chr to Init. chack - thats awsome! Over the Top - Add Chr to Dmg when charging - agian - awsome! Marshal may be second string - but hes Never second fiddle - hes great in small teams - and great in large. you hit more people in large - but they still have the same bonuses. Marshals can also tank decently - they can have shields and all armor - simple and martial weapons. They can easly waid into combat with no fears
gristler2716 10-26-04, 12:07 PM	hmmm, sounds interesting, kind of a tactical fighter but with support skills to make his and team mates more powerful. any thoughts on good prc's or indeed multi classing the character in general?
eggplantm 10-26-04, 12:21 PM	hmmm, sounds interesting, kind of a tactical fighter but with support skills to make his and team mates more powerful. any thoughts on good prc's or indeed multi classing the character in general? I like the marshall but unfortunately because the abilities are fairly unique there are no prc's that enhance or continue a marshall's abilities directly. There are also no feats specific to the marshall. You will have to make up any on your own.
Tweedledope 10-26-04, 09:25 PM	I know this isn't necessarily the best place to post this but does anyone have any good Marshall builds (ie, feat progressions)? I know there aren't any PrCs for the Marshall but, what are some good ideas if I wish to create one. Tweedledope
GypsyComet 11-30-04, 01:43 AM	The Marshall is fairly flexible, so the best feat tracks are going to depend on his early Aura choices, as well as his other characteristics (like weapon choices or multi-classes). Good general Marshall enhancers would include Diehard (PHB), and Kiai Shout (CW), because staying conscious (and thus maintaining your auras) is good, and being able to stick your opponents with penalties while also enhancing your allies is quite useful. For the Marshall who is mixing it up in melee, Pack Tactics (Dragon 313) can be another useful tool. The Epic feats for the Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20031206a better get it while you can) do suggest a few non-Epic feats, such as some sort of Aura Echo that would allow an Aura's effects to persist for someone who left the effect radius. One round would be appropriate, with a Greater Aura Echo lasting three rounds (making the Epic version "Lasting Aura", at a minute, fall in line fairly smoothly). Unfortunately, the ability to maintain more than the two normal Auras seems to have been relegated to Epic level feats, as has the ability to expand the radius. Another Aura Feat I could see would be Aura Focus, which would increase the bonus provided by a specific Minor Aura by +1. Obviously, Greater Aura Focus could be read to either do the same for a specific Major Aura or improve a specific Minor Aura by +2, and naturally would require Aura Focus as a prereq. Then there's the possibility of the Extra Grant Move Action, or the Hasty Grant Move action (the grant becoming a Swift action for the Marshall instead of a Standard). The caveat here is that I haven't actually looked at the MHB. These are just derived from looking at the posted preview of the Marshall from last year...
Ipsissimus 11-30-04, 08:40 AM	Your mage and/or cleric could always use summoning spells which would be legal targets for your Auras. Now your 3 man team becomes a small army. I like the marshal though it could easily be a 10 lvl PrC. I'm sure it will be reprinted somewhere down the line and get some feats added to them. It happens all the time and more common recently with the complete books. If you can, the Leadership feat is ideal for a Marshal. Assuming you have a high Cha.
malisteen 11-30-04, 09:53 AM	Short answer: The marshal, like the bard, is flat out better in larger parties. Long answer: It really depends on your team's makeup. If you're going about with a sorcerer and a rogue, then your team is going to have some trouble. If you're fighting with an urban ranger and an psion, it will be tough, but you should be able to pull through. Remember that your auras affect any ally who can hear and understand you and has Int 3 or higher. Summoned monsters typically fit into that category, undead don't until high levels, Cohorts do, and natures allies typically don't until mid levels or higher. Remember that most animals, even dire animals, don't have the necessary Int. In a party of 3, your DM should be willing to let one or more of you grab the leadership feat at level 6, and I would reccomend that for your character. Otherwise, multiclassing, at least early on, may be a good idea. here's one build idea, human character, based on the spiked chain reference above. level 1, marshal, exotic proficiency [chain], combat reflexes level 2, fighter, combat expertise level 3, marshal, improved disarm level 4, fighter, improved trip level 5, fighter level 6, marshal, leadership (fighter or healer cohort) level 7, fighter, power attack level 8, marshal level 9, marshal, weapon focus [chain] level 10, exotic weapon master (CW), exotic reach level 11, EWM, flurry of strikes level 12, marshal, weapon specialization [chain] level 13, mashal level 14, marshal level 15, marshal, mage slayer level 16, marshal level 17, marshal level 18, marshal, pierce magical protection level 19, marshal level 20, marshal early minor auras to take include Art of War and Motivate Dexterity, while early major auras should probably include motivate ardor or hardy soldiers, followed by motivate attack or motivate ergency. This build gets you up to marshal level 14 at level 20, giving you major aura +3, grant move action 3/day, 6 minor auras known, and 4 major auras known, which is probably all you'll really ever use. This probably isn't the best build you can come up with for a marshal, I've only bought the minis handbook yesterday, so I'm not very familiar with the class or it's abilities yet, and I've never seen it in action. But it is an example of a build someone might come up with for a marshal in a small party where the character would also have to cover other bases (in this case melee expert geared towards defending a backlining mage). The main weakness of this build, as I see it, are the increadible stats required (a common weakness of chain builds in general). For this your character would need an int 13+, a con 13+, a good cha (14+), a good strength (14+), and a good dex (14+). the only stat you could dump is wisdom. It should be said that several classes do well dipping a level or two of marshal, both ability-wise and thematically, including fighter, ranger, hexblade, paladin, and eberron's artificer. Warlock could also probably do well from a level or two, and maybe even warmage, cleric, or psionic warrior. So what you may want instead of a primarily marshal build is a primarily something else build that dips marshal for diplomatic and leadership ability, and maybe human paragon (UA) to keep diplomacy as a class skill for all classes. Something to think about.
cowdragon 11-30-04, 10:10 AM	I've played Marshals before and they rock. In fact my wife had a Fighter/Marshal/Battle Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. She got that Lightning Maces feat and did more damage than anybody else! So yes, they do tank very well. They also motivate the group(even a small one) to bigger and better hieghts. Here's the build. Marshal 5(you really only need a couple auras)/Fighter 4(for weapon specialization)/Battle Sorcerer 1(to qualify for...)/Dragon Disciple 10. I suggest taking tripping feats or sundering or grappling. Another good option are the Draconic Feats from Complete Arcane. If you go that way though I'd go Marshal2/Battle Sorcerer8/Dragon Disciple10. The reason for this is you can get a free claw attack after you cast true strike and then pump a 4th level spell into an arcane strike at the same time. Massive damage! Also, you look really cool. You've got some utility spells. A couple auras(1 minor one major), blindsense(which really helps your group actually), wings, natural armour, and a breath weapon if needed. The marshal is really handy for this. Otherwise, here's a non-draconic build that SHOULD synergize well. Marshal 10/Suel Archanamach10. This will give you great auras/abilities from the Marshal(like motivate move actions), and the spells and armour use of the archanamach. Dispelling hit. Spontanious casting. Both classes are cha based fighter types. Should work well. Take the route my wife took and go with Lightning Maces/Wpn Focus Maces/Imp Critical Mace/Two-Wpn Fighting... you'd be suprised how many 19-20's you can roll in one rounds worth of attacks! I've seen her get 10 attacks/round. Granted, there was alot of high rolls. Hmmm...maybe I should take her to Vegas. ;) Good Luck, The Cowdragon :mage: