Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quirriff 10-28-05, 08:24 AM	More specifically the... 3.0 Unarmed Base Attack Bonus and Flurry of Blows and the 3.5 Flurry of Blows I personally find the 3.0 System more realistic and fits in with other character classes, a Flurry of Blows was a flurry of not so accurate blows. in 3.5 it starts of being worse than the 3.0 and then makes big Jumps to be better, and in an unrealistic way, and it gets to a point where a flurry and an attack is the same thing. For those unfamiliar with 3.0 Unarmed Base attack bonus and Flurry of blows. Unarmed BAB Flurry of Blows +0 -2/-2 +1 -1/-1 +2 +0/+0 +3 +1/+1 +3 +1/+1 +4/+1 +2/+2/-1 +5/+2 +3/+3/+0 +6/+3 +4/+4/+1 +6/+3 +4/+4/+1 +7/+4/+1 +5/+5/+2/-1 +8/+5/+2 +6/+6/+3/+0 +9/+6/+3 +7/+7/+4/+1 +9/+6/+3 +7/+7/+4/+1 +10/+7/+4/+1 +8/+8/+5/+2/-1 +11/+8/+5/+2 +9/+9/+6/+3/+0 +12/+9/+6/+3 +10/+10/+7/+4/+1 +12/+9/+6/+3 +10/+10/+7/+4/+1 +13/+10/+7/+4/+1 +11/+11/+8/+5/+2/-1 +14/+11/+8/+5/+2 +12/+12/+9/+6/+3/+0 +15/+12/+9/+6/+3 +13/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1 Just comments on the subject will be appreciated.
Satori 10-28-05, 10:10 AM	I'm having issues adjusting to the New Flurry as well. One thing I DO like about the new flurry is it completely cuts out monk/warrior BAB munchkining. In 3.0 Monks received bonus attacks at +4,+7,+10, etc... rather than +6,+11,+16, etc... Through some rule twistings some players managed to go Monk 4/Fighter 16, max out TWF feats, and end up with some ungodly number of attacks. That wasn't cool. The new system is a bit more progressive, though, in that ultimately a 3.5 monk will get better than a 3.0 monk...but only if the 3.5 monk stays in the class. BAB stacking is no longer an issue, and most players need to devote at least 11 levels (iirc) to really twink out a flurry build...and even then, you're better off just staying monk. I think it'll grow on me the more I use it.
q'afuu 10-28-05, 10:25 AM	Monks IMO suffer more than enough from having only 3/4 BAB to begin with. The 3.0 Flurry, aside from being needlessly complex, penalizes that even further. Monks are quite mediocre grapplers because of the lower BAB. Disarm: same problem. Stunning Fist is a pretty nice ability, but it's not exactly powerful: limited number of uses per day, but you need to hit (BAB issues again) and the save has to be failed (a Fort save no less, on average the one characters make the most easily). Monks are the most MADtastic class in D&D, another reason why their attack bonus will be compromized compared to that of other warrior classes. They also have to use rather crappy weapons to be able to flurry, or use their fists which are not so easily or cheaply enhanced as weapons. That's another reason why their attack bonus usually ends up lower than a fighter's or barbarian's would. All that adds up quickly. Anything that further reduces a monk's attack bonus effectively nerfs the class quite substantially.
Jaxgaret 10-28-05, 10:34 AM	Monks IMO suffer more than enough from having only 3/4 BAB to begin with. The 3.0 Flurry, aside from being needlessly complex, penalizes that even further. Monks are quite mediocre grapplers because of the lower BAB. Disarm: same problem. Stunning Fist is a pretty nice ability, but it's not exactly powerful: limited number of uses per day, but you need to hit (BAB issues again) and the save has to be failed (a Fort save no less, on average the one characters make the most easily). Monks are the most MADtastic class in D&D, another reason why their attack bonus will be compromized compared to that of other warrior classes. They also have to use rather crappy weapons to be able to flurry, or use their fists which are not so easily or cheaply enhanced as weapons. That's another reason why their attack bonus usually ends up lower than a fighter's or barbarian's would. All that adds up quickly. Anything that further reduces a monk's attack bonus effectively nerfs the class quite substantially. what he said. ;)
The Hive Custodian 10-28-05, 10:59 AM	One thing I DO like about the new flurry is it completely cuts out monk/warrior BAB munchkining. In 3.0 Monks received bonus attacks at +4,+7,+10, etc... rather than +6,+11,+16, etc... Through some rule twistings some players managed to go Monk 4/Fighter 16, max out TWF feats, and end up with some ungodly number of attacks. I seem to recall a note in the 3.0 multiclassing section that a monk could only count their monk BAB for their more advantageous number of attacks; otherwise, they dropped to the standard number of attacks. So a Monk 4/Fighter 16 would only get 4 base attacks, not 7. (Although in Neverwinter Nights, they conveniently skipped this stipulation, though they capped base attacks at 6. Still, dual-wield Kamas for 6 attacks with the primary hand + 2 attacks with the off-hand (the game didn't have any Two-Weapon Fighting beyond Improved) + 1 attack for Flurry + 1 attack from a Haste item = 10 attacks a round.)
solbergb 10-28-05, 03:03 PM	Frankly, I find the 3.0 mechanic to be confusing and cludgy, where the 3.5 mechanic is essentially the same as rapid shot, in how it is implemented. I far prefer the second approach, especially since to get the most out of flurry you have to stick with monk for a while.
Lord Schpungus 10-28-05, 05:57 PM	Yeah, the 3.0 mechanic ate things that were disgusting. This truly is one of the many cases where 3.5 is absolutely better than 3.0. Another is weapon sizing rules.
Quirriff 10-30-05, 08:25 AM	Yeah, the 3.0 mechanic ate things that were disgusting. This truly is one of the many cases where 3.5 is absolutely better than 3.0. Another is weapon sizing rules. Weapon sizing rules are a pain in the Glutinous Maximus, weapons for creatures of Halfling Size or Ogre Size should have to make do with a world that suits size M creatures, thus they should use the same weapons. The Monk Base attack bonus in 3.0 is actually less confusing, it doesn't make jumps and changes its use between levels than the 3.5 flurry of blows The Extra attacks when the Base Attack Bonus hits 4 rather than 6 isn't confusing. The 3.5 version jumps at 5th level, 9th, and especially 11th level, and this is not to my liking. The use of the 3.5 Flurry of Blows changes, initially it's used to get the extra attacks at the expensive of accuracy, when you're surounded by lots of weak enemys with low AC. Then it powers up so they it totally replaces non flurry of Blows attacks. The 3.0 unarmed attack bonus is gradual it has the 3/4 base attack bonus, but unlike normal base attack bonus' that gain an extra attack of +1 when the previous attack reaches +6, this gains an extra attack with a +1 bonus after every +4, very simple. The 3.5 design is disigned for and by power gamers, 3 attacks at your highest base attack bonus, with no penalty, How is that NOT designed by powergamers. The 3.0 one could be abused by multiclassing into fighter, but all DMs should beware of power gamers who ruin games. But with that, that Monk is missing out on all the other cool monk stuff, such as spell resistance.
q'afuu 10-30-05, 11:37 AM	The 3.5 design is disigned for and by power gamers, 3 attacks at your highest base attack bonus, with no penalty, How is that NOT designed by powergamers. Since that highest attack bonus is still only 3/4 of a 'real' warrior's and you can only use underpowered weapons with it, those must have been some pretty inept powergamers. ;) The 3.0 one could be abused by multiclassing into fighter, but all DMs should beware of power gamers who ruin games. The problem with 3.0 FoB is mostly that it's confusing if you multiclass. It's hardly abusive, unless you missed that rule that says your iterative attacks while using FoB are based on monk levels only. The extra BAB from fighter levels only matters for your first attack.