Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Don Svin 11-07-05, 03:41 AM	I've heard that a monk can utilize his special monk weapons exactly like his unarmored strike. In that meant, that a monk also increases the damage die of his special monk weapons, as if they were his unarmored strike. Is that true? Would a kama deal 1d8 in the hands of a 4th level monk instead of 1d6? Thanks!
q'afuu 11-07-05, 03:45 AM	No. A monk only increases her unarmed (not unarmored) strike damage as she goes up in level.
Don Svin 11-07-05, 04:15 AM	Of course, unarmed...
runestar 11-07-05, 07:28 AM	Would this mean a monk attacking with his arms does not benefit from his un-armed damage? :D
heretic888 11-07-05, 12:26 PM	Would this mean a monk attacking with his arms does not benefit from his un-armed damage? :D Uh, no. :P That's the great thing about the Monk. Using Flurry of Blows or Greater Flurry (or even *gasp* the TWF feat chains), I can headbutt you with Stunning Fist and then use my enchanted +5 kama for the rest of my attacks. And, if I really wanted to be cute, I could even use an unarmed attack again on my last attack and trip you on yer butt. It can make for some very interesting combinations. :D But, to answer the OP: no, the Monk's weapons do not increase in damage along with his unarmed strikes. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-10-05, 10:59 PM	I understand the basic concept for the rules on monks, but it seems like it punishes a character concept that focuses on weilding a weapon, Like if I want a sword weilding monk (Chinese style tai chi sword or samurai style sword) I am S.O.L. Even if the concept is largely a very good one, in terms of game mechanics I am putting myself at a handicap for not following the standard formula of "I'm a monk so I just use my hands. That really irritates me since it favors a certain level of uniformity or uncreative characters concepts. Someone actually told me that he saw a feat that allowed a monk to treat his monk weapons like his unarmed strike in terms of his unarmed strike damage. But I have never been able to find such a feat. Strangly enough treating a monk weapon as having the same damage potential in the hands of a monk as the monks unarmed damage provides no extra advantage in game mechanics since the character would simply use unarmed strikes instead of creating a character who favored any of the monk melee weapons. Plus I would like to see an expanded list of Monk weapons since the list in the players hand book is rather blah. Why bother offering monk weapons (which are entirely light weapons and therefore do not exceed the d6 mark in most cases) if the very thought of using them becomes pointless when the character can start dealing better damage only a few levels later. and by the time the character could afford to buy really good monk weapons (like the Kama listed in the previous post, they are able to deal far more damage with just a single hit from the unarmed then that of multiple attacks from a monk weapon.
MageCat 11-11-05, 12:10 AM	I have long been in favor of changing the way a monks unarmed damage works so that weapons use is not so discouraged. IT seems a monk should not need to use weapons, but not the he should NEVER use weapons, and after reaching a certain level it would be a waste to use them. My alternate rule would take the monk's ki strike back to the 3.0 style where the monk's hands count as a +1 weapon after reaching a certain level. instead of the damage die going up every 4 levels, the monk would get a higher plus. for example at 4th level the monk would do 1d6+1 damage and hit creatures requiring a +1 or better to hit. In the current system, a monk does 1d8 damage at 4th lvl, so the average dmg is actually the same (1d8 avg is 4.5, 1d6 avg is 3.5+1=4.5) so the net change is small. At 8th lvl the monk does 1d6+2 (avg 5.5, comp to 1d10 avg 5.5,) and hits creatures that require +2 to hit. At 12th 1d6+3 (avg 6.5) instead of 2d6 (avg 7-) here you lose a little but the dmg reduction "peircing" oughta make up for this. At 16th: 1d6+4 (avg 7.5) vs 2d8(avg 9) And finally 1d6+5 (avg 8.5) vs 2d10(avg 11) The "magical plus" should probably apply to attack as well, so the monk will have the same chance to hit and do damage with an avg monk weapon or their hands. Noone else so far has liked my idea tho.... :weep:
TwistedShadow 11-11-05, 12:36 AM	I think I have to disagree with you there, first the unarmed damage going up was a part of 3.0 as well as 3.5 it just used a different progression but you ended up do 1d20 unarmed at 20th level, and the thing Ki strike was mainly for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, since 3.5 changed DR rules so too was the monk ability changed to reflect that.
runestar 11-11-05, 02:28 AM	So now we have +5 keen flaming burst kamas that do 1d20 base damage...and can overcome various drs as well :rolleyes: The reason why monk fists had such a high base damage was because there were few ways of enhancing them, save for the few dr-bypassing enhancements they had, which did not boost damage/to hit. A fighter's greatsword deals only 2d6 damage, why should a monk weapon exceed that by so much?
periscope 11-11-05, 02:55 AM	You could ask your DM if you can make a variant weapon wielding monk who does not gain the improved unarmed strike but gains increased abilities with monk weapons. I personally would like to see the monk with a bastard sword or spike chain prof +flurry of blows just to laugh.
Don Svin 11-11-05, 11:14 AM	Thanks for all your good answers and considerations. I think a DM of mine actually once has allowed one of my monk characters to wield monk weapons with unarmed damage progression. Worked fine. Another question: What's the oriental weapon (if any) consisting of a long rope/chain with a hook or other nasty metal piece in one end called? I thought of a fighter, rogue or monk using such a weapon in a deadly cinematic way including some clever rope use. And, if considered a one-handed weapon, eventually using it with 2 weapon fighting for some really spectacular and acrobatic fighting. What do you think?
heretic888 11-11-05, 11:56 AM	I think a DM of mine actually once has allowed one of my monk characters to wield monk weapons with unarmed damage progression. Worked fine. I assume there were at least some limitations on the enhancements and enchantments that could be placed said weapon, then?? :uh-huh: Another question: What's the oriental weapon (if any) consisting of a long rope/chain with a hook or other nasty metal piece in one end called? I thought of a fighter, rogue or monk using such a weapon in a deadly cinematic way including some clever rope use. And, if considered a one-handed weapon, eventually using it with 2 weapon fighting for some really spectacular and acrobatic fighting. What do you think? It sounds like you're talking about the Japanese kusari-gama. Its a large exotic weapon in Oriental Adventures, with no class (except for maybe the Ninja in Rokugan Campaign Setting) automatically having proficiency. Additionally, it is not a Monk weapon. Also, I would personally rule that any character who tries to swing the sickle from the chain end (a la Sango's brother in Inuyasha) incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls and risks a 10% chance of accidentally cutting themselves with the sickle on the swing, due to the obvious stupidity and lack of familiarity with the weapon that such a character would have. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-11-05, 01:34 PM	So now we have +5 keen flaming burst kamas that do 1d20 base damage...and can overcome various drs as well :rolleyes: The reason why monk fists had such a high base damage was because there were few ways of enhancing them, save for the few dr-bypassing enhancements they had, which did not boost damage/to hit. A fighter's greatsword deals only 2d6 damage, why should a monk weapon exceed that by so much? Considering that WotC has already ruled that monks can take the feat, "Improved Natural Weapons" which allows them to basically use the unarmed damage for large monks progression. So you tell me, which sounds more crazy, a 4th level monk who can do a 1d8 with a sai, of a 4th level monk who can do 2d6 with his bare fists? And fortunately such a feat would not affect the weapon damage even if you allowed monks to use their normal unarmed damage with their monk weapons. But my original point was that the way the monk is set up now actually encourages things like the improved natural attacks feat because it makes using weapons mechanically stupid because no amount of magical upgrades will make that weapon even close to comparing to raw damage they can deal with their unarmed. Even more so, I have seen plenty of times with various DM's where they will allow monks to gain magical gloves and such to allow them to add enhancements to their bare fist damage, even if you don't agree with that It has been done before and will likely be done again by someone so +5 flame burst Kama that dones 2d8 in the hands of a 20th level monk, really doesn't mean that much since there will be people out there just as happy to have +5 flameburst fists that do 4d8, it doesn't make any huge mechanical difference to what the monk can already accomplish in the first place. But with these things flying around its no wonder that you never see a monk character who weilds weapons at all, since they mechanically are a waste of his time And like it or not, no matter how much you craft a character idea to be interesting for role playing, very few people will play that kind of character and stick with the huge handicap of a monk using a weapon for long. And really its not that much different then a 20th level rogue using a short sword and dealing 11d6 damage while flanking because of sneak attack.
heretic888 11-11-05, 01:44 PM	But with these things flying around its no wonder that you never see a monk character who weilds weapons at all, since they mechanically are a waste of his time If said Monk character has an Int score of 3, maybe. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-11-05, 01:53 PM	If said Monk character has an Int score of 3, maybe. Laterz. :uh-huh: I am going to assume that statement was not intended as a flame, so I am wondering what you back such a statement up with. that or I am guessing you missed my point
MindWandererB 11-11-05, 02:21 PM	First of all, Improved Natural Attack aside: Keep in mind that monk weapons have three benefits: Bonus to damage, bonus to hit, and special abilities. A level 20 monk has no bonus to hit and does 11 damage (+Str) on average. A +5 kama alone does 8.5 points of damage on average, which is a bit less, but it also comes with a +5 bonus to hit. That's huge; it means that 25% of the time, an attack that would have been a miss now becomes a hit. Let's take the example of an enemy with an AC such that an unarmed monk can hit it half the time on a single attack. Unarmed damage is going to be an average of 5.5 damage per strike with dice only. The +5 kama does an average of 6.375 damage per strike because they hit 75% of the time. A STR modifier greater than +0 raises this difference even further. Using a full attack also increases this further (the last unarmed attack only hits on a 20, while the last armed attack hits 25% of the time). Special abilities on the weapon, of course, increase this further still. The only thing that can tip the scale in favor of the unarmed attacks is Power Attack (since it doesn't work on light weapons), and that only works well with the right feats. (I'm not sure how a flurry of blows works with a quarterstaff and Power Attack; the rules say nothing about it but it would be pretty broken if you could Power Attack a quarterstaff at 1:2 during a flurry.) Now, as for INA, granted, it does make a difference. A big one. Average damage per hit goes up to 18 at level 20. Using the example from above, the +5 kama only beats out the unarmed strike if the monk's STR is greater than 31. On a full attack, the armed strike beats out the unarmed strike if the monk's STR is greater than 21. (Remember, these calculations are holding the chance to hit constant at 50% for a BAB of +15, but varying the damage modifier.) Special abilities continue to help the weapon, of course. If you're going to use house rules to fix this, I strongly recommend not allowing monks to take INA. It was obviously not intended to be used that way, regardless of what a legalistic interpretation of the rules may suggest. Increasing weapon damage is a bad way to fix it- you'll end up with massive imbalance in the long run.
heretic888 11-11-05, 02:23 PM	:uh-huh: I am going to assume that statement was not intended as a flame, so I am wondering what you back such a statement up with. that or I am guessing you missed my point Not a flame, unless you're vicariously experiencing the perspectives of your fictional Monk characters. :P Its really quite simple... Y'see, when you take enchancement bonuses and magical enchantments into account, then the Monk weapon easily outsteps Monk unarmed strikes. I can add +5d6 damage to my magical weapon from Flaming, Frost, Shock, and Merciful enchantments alone. If I add on one of those alignment-based effects (say your Monk really hates chaotic or evil creatures) that's another +2d6 damage against certain types. Then there's Bane, yet another +2d6 damage against creature subtypes (who may or may not be commonly encountered in your campaign). Let's not forget the straight-up enchancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls. When all is said and done, a +10 enchanted kama is far and away preferred to a magical, lawful 2d10 unarmed strike, even if you add bonuses from Empty Fist Mastery or Improved Natural Attack on top of that. Laterz.
Garath 11-11-05, 02:48 PM	I've been playing a 3.5 monk for about a year now (currently 9th level) and so far the monk's biggest problem is hitting, not dealing damage. I would gladly trade some unarmed damage bonuses for attack bonuses or full BAB. It would be better to reliably do at least some damage than have a small chance at big damage. Granted, this depends somewhat on the monsters our DM throws at us, which may be higher AC types on average. A +1 kama helps, but the encounters are designed for fighters with +1 greatswords and full BAB. By the way, this monk does have high strength for hitting, tripping etc. (rolled 15, +1 at 4th level, and Belt of Giant Strength +4 for a 20 strength).
Nephlite 11-11-05, 02:53 PM	Considering that WotC has already ruled that monks can take the feat, "Improved Natural Weapons" which allows them to basically use the unarmed damage for large monks progression. So you tell me, which sounds more crazy, a 4th level monk who can do a 1d8 with a sai, of a 4th level monk who can do 2d6 with his bare fists? And fortunately such a feat would not affect the weapon damage even if you allowed monks to use their normal unarmed damage with their monk weapons. You can't take the feat at level 4 or 3. You have to wait till levl 6 to qualify and take it. You can't save feats. Now compare at level 6 a (masterwork at least) +2 Sai doing 1d6 and making enhancements and abilities with a 2d6 bare fist with no enhancements. Benefits of Sai: bonus to disarm, +2 hit/damage, harder to sunder since magical, and won't hurt self if hit a creature of fire. Benefits of Unarmed: You can learn a feat to do one more size of damage, and um that is it except can't be dis-armed (well unless vorpol). +5 flame burst Kama that dones 2d8 in the hands of a 20th level monk, really doesn't mean that much since there will be people out there just as happy to have +5 flameburst fists that do 4d8, it doesn't make any huge mechanical difference to what the monk can already accomplish in the first place. But with these things flying around its no wonder that you never see a monk character who weilds weapons at all, since they mechanically are a waste of his time Yes but enhancing a Fist cost more than enhancing a weapon like a kama. Thus you'd have a +5 flaming brust kama for same price as +3 Fist. Look at amulet that improves monk stuff: lower cost by a 3rd to get real price because it is in the wrong slot (amulets are not combat function so 50 % more cost). If you made a guantlet or glove of it: it would still cost more than enhancing a weapon but not as bad as the amulet. Sorry WOTC disagrees with your same price idea. And like it or not, no matter how much you craft a character idea to be interesting for role playing, very few people will play that kind of character and stick with the huge handicap of a monk using a weapon for long. And really its not that much different then a 20th level rogue using a short sword and dealing 11d6 damage while flanking because of sneak attack. Except Rogues can't do extra damage against a lot of creatures: monk damage always works. Rogues worry about Fortification armor. Why not modify monk do always do only 1d6 + add sneak attack instead of increasing in damage: see who is better. I'll say PHB monk will be better even though sometimes you'll do more damage as the Rogue/monk.
TwistedShadow 11-11-05, 03:14 PM	First of all, Improved Natural Attack aside: Keep in mind that monk weapons have three benefits: Bonus to damage, bonus to hit, and special abilities. A level 20 monk has no bonus to hit and does 11 damage (+Str) on average. A +5 kama alone does 8.5 points of damage on average, which is a bit less, but it also comes with a +5 bonus to hit. That's huge; it means that 25% of the time, an attack that would have been a miss now becomes a hit. Let's take the example of an enemy with an AC such that an unarmed monk can hit it half the time on a single attack. Unarmed damage is going to be an average of 5.5 damage per strike with dice only. The +5 kama does an average of 6.375 damage per strike because they hit 75% of the time. A STR modifier greater than +0 raises this difference even further. Using a full attack also increases this further (the last unarmed attack only hits on a 20, while the last armed attack hits 25% of the time). Special abilities on the weapon, of course, increase this further still. The only thing that can tip the scale in favor of the unarmed attacks is Power Attack (since it doesn't work on light weapons), and that only works well with the right feats. (I'm not sure how a flurry of blows works with a quarterstaff and Power Attack; the rules say nothing about it but it would be pretty broken if you could Power Attack a quarterstaff at 1:2 during a flurry.) Now, as for INA, granted, it does make a difference. A big one. Average damage per hit goes up to 18 at level 20. Using the example from above, the +5 kama only beats out the unarmed strike if the monk's STR is greater than 31. On a full attack, the armed strike beats out the unarmed strike if the monk's STR is greater than 21. (Remember, these calculations are holding the chance to hit constant at 50% for a BAB of +15, but varying the damage modifier.) Special abilities continue to help the weapon, of course. If you're going to use house rules to fix this, I strongly recommend not allowing monks to take INA. It was obviously not intended to be used that way, regardless of what a legalistic interpretation of the rules may suggest. Increasing weapon damage is a bad way to fix it- you'll end up with massive imbalance in the long run. Ok that makes alot more sense when you go into depth with it like that then it would normally appear at initial inspection. heretic888 i have a slightly different question for you based on an earlier post of yours in this thread That's the great thing about the Monk. Using Flurry of Blows or Greater Flurry (or even *gasp* the TWF feat chains), I can headbutt you with Stunning Fist and then use my enchanted +5 kama for the rest of my attacks. And, if I really wanted to be cute, I could even use an unarmed attack again on my last attack and trip you on yer butt. My question is about you including twf in that post since twf is incompatable with flurry of blows. The FAQ's even address that directly stating that monks can not use TWF and Flurry of blows at the same time, since both require a full attack. so I was curious exactly what you ment by this statement. also you do understand that the merciful enhancement, while it does add 2d6 to damge it changes all damage from the weapon to nonlethal damage right? As far as the rest of this topic goes; MindWandererB I bow to your superior knowledge and understanding on this matter :bow: This last bit is only slightly related but, I haven't looked in depth but in some of these new books, have any of the new weapons they have added been marked as new monk weapons? I'm just curious because I am hoping that they have added a little more variety on monk weapons, even if only a little bit.
heretic888 11-11-05, 03:36 PM	heretic888 i have a slightly different question for you based on an earlier post of yours in this thread [...] My question is about you including twf in that post since twf is incompatable with flurry of blows. The FAQ's even address that directly stating that monks can not use TWF and Flurry of blows at the same time, since both require a full attack. so I was curious exactly what you ment by this statement. Not to be contrary, but you are mistaken as to what the most recent FAQ states concerning this matter. The first column of page 8 of the 3.5 D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv10272005.zip) states: "A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows." also you do understand that the merciful enhancement, while it does add 2d6 to damge it changes all damage from the weapon to nonlethal damage right? Yes. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-11-05, 03:48 PM	Yeah, a little after I posted that I ran across the corrected information, Sorry for the miss statement.
Don Svin 11-11-05, 10:16 PM	I assume there were at least some limitations on the enhancements and enchantments that could be placed said weapon, then?? :uh-huh: Not any we considered. Don't think I ever bought/found an enchanted weapon... It sounds like you're talking about the Japanese kusari-gama. Its a large exotic weapon in Oriental Adventures, with no class (except for maybe the Ninja in Rokugan Campaign Setting) automatically having proficiency. Additionally, it is not a Monk weapon. Ah yes, that's what it's called. Thought I'd heard it before... Thanks. Yeah, I can see the obvious disadvantage in chosen it for a monk character (especially considering what I've read from other's calculations and statistics), but for a fighter or a rogue it would be fine. Also, I would personally rule that any character who tries to swing the sickle from the chain end (a la Sango's brother in Inuyasha) incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls and risks a 10% chance of accidentally cutting themselves with the sickle on the swing, due to the obvious stupidity and lack of familiarity with the weapon that such a character would have. Laterz. Guess I did ask what you thought about it... I did intend to wield it from the chain end and (hopefully!) cause blood to spill and enemies to back away in awe... Thanks guys for all your great thoughts and comments. And now for the final (I think, at least): I've thought about chosing the Ascetic Knight feat (complete adventurer) for my next character to multiclass between paladin and monk. Agreed, I get some serious advantages, but my first priority was to be able to multiclass between the two, creating a great divine champion, smiting his enemies with knuckles covered in holy flames (not the special magical weapon ability, just a descriptive way to use Smite Evil). I guess I can't be sad about the wicked benefits the feat ALSO bestows (paladin and monk levels are added to determine unarmed damage, bonus AC and Smiting damage), but even without those I get what I want. What do you think of it? Oh, and this is not the character I wanted to wield the kusari-gama. That was just an idea for an exotic warrior of some sort I want to play sometime.
heretic888 11-11-05, 11:00 PM	Guess I did ask what you thought about it... I did intend to wield it from the chain end and (hopefully!) cause blood to spill and enemies to back away in awe... In actual Japanese budo, the kusari-gama would be wielded as a two-hand weapon --- with the chain in one hand and the sickle in the other hand. The chain (which has a small weight on the end) would be swung about to entangle or trip one's opponent, and then you'd run in and finish them off with the sickle while he or she was helpless. Laterz.
Don Svin 11-12-05, 09:09 AM	In actual Japanese budo, the kusari-gama would be wielded as a two-hand weapon --- with the chain in one hand and the sickle in the other hand. The chain (which has a small weight on the end) would be swung about to entangle or trip one's opponent, and then you'd run in and finish them off with the sickle while he or she was helpless. Laterz. Of course. Again, forgot about that. A cool way to utilize it I think, but maybe it's not the weapon I'm looking for after all. I really would like a character who's wielding a chain or rope with a wicked metal end (or one in each end) swinging the sharp end(s) at his enemies. I've considered the spiked chain, but I'm not sure it really does it or if it's anything near the weapon I describe. Btw, a cool collection of chain weapons: http://www.midamerica.net/~tmcurry/graphics/products/chainW/cw9.jpg Maybe what I'm thinking of here is some real nasty Hong Kong martial arts or something manga/animé inspired. Admitted, it requires that the relevant DM is running a cinematic/high action oriented campaign, but it shouldn't be hard to accomplish, my friends I play with considered. What I'm asking here is what weapon do you think would do it for me? Would kusari-gama still be out of the question? Have I neglected the spiked chain possibility?
TwistedShadow 11-12-05, 12:11 PM	Since its an exotic weapon, you could just make his a specially designed version of the spiked chain, where the weights on the end have blades on them. Use all the same weapon stats just change it to add slashing damage to the types of damage it can do. so it would be able to do slashing/peircing/blunt damage based on how your using it. Then its up to you to describe what it looks like
heretic888 11-12-05, 01:00 PM	Don Svin, There are three exotic weapons in Oriental Adventures that sound like what you're looking for: - Kau Sin Ke: Also called a whipping chain, this weapon is a length of four to six short iron bars connected by links of chain. - Kusari-gama: A length of chain with a kama at one end. It can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon. - Kawanga: A length of light chain with a weight on one end and a sharp-bladed grappling hook on the other. It can be whirled quickly, striking with hard blows from either end. One end can also be swung out to entangle an opponent. It can be used either as a reach weapon or as a double weapon. There is, of course, also the Spiked Chain from the Player's Handbook. And, while I personally think its a dumb way to use the weapon in real-life, there is nothing rule-wise to prevent you from using the kusari-gama as a reach weapon with the kama swung outward. Its your call. Also, like TwistedShadow said (and is actually suggested in the Player's Handbook), the actual design and appearance of your individual weapon can be radically different from the artwork in the published material. Remember the old indictum that, mechanically, the Katana and Bastard Sword are the same weapon --- even though they look radically different from one another. You could use the mechanical information of any of the above weapons, but customize its appearance to fit your character. Laterz.
Don Svin 11-12-05, 01:13 PM	Great! Thanks for your help and comments. Yeah, you might personally think it's dumb, and it's ok, but I really like that kind of cinematic action and so does most of my friends I play with. May I ask, how do you like to play?
heretic888 11-12-05, 01:29 PM	Don Svin, I don't have anything against cinematic roleplaying per se, its simply an awkward and impractical way of using said weapon. Its like the "reverse-blade sword" from Rurouni Kenshin: sure it sounds cool, but I can't think of anything dumber in combat than fighting with a metal sword that isn't bladed (you might as well use a bokken or shinai than this "reverse-blade" nonsense). As for using the kusari-gama in the way you suggested, I think I've only seen it done so in Inuyasha. I like how Sengoku: Chanbara Roleplaying in Feudal Japan sets up differing levels of roleplay --- there's Historic (realistic), Chanbara (cinematic), and Anime (fantastical). I prefer the Chanbara or cinematic styles myself, as I find both Historic and Anime go too far in either direction. But, to each his own. Laterz.
Don Svin 11-12-05, 01:53 PM	Oh, ok, then I misunderstood. Thanks for all your help.
heretic888 11-12-05, 02:03 PM	No probz. ;)
q'afuu 11-14-05, 07:27 AM	I understand the basic concept for the rules on monks, but it seems like it punishes a character concept that focuses on weilding a weapon, Like if I want a sword weilding monk (Chinese style tai chi sword or samurai style sword) I am S.O.L. Even if the concept is largely a very good one, in terms of game mechanics I am putting myself at a handicap for not following the standard formula of "I'm a monk so I just use my hands. Then consider playing a Fighter (in terms of class levels) who happens to be a monk (in terms of who he is in the setting), or possibly a multiclass. Just because a character is considered a monk in-game doesn't mean he has to have (nothing but) monk levels mechanics-wise.
heretic888 11-14-05, 12:55 PM	Then consider playing a Fighter (in terms of class levels) who happens to be a monk (in terms of who he is in the setting), or possibly a multiclass. Just because a character is considered a monk in-game doesn't mean he has to have (nothing but) monk levels mechanics-wise. Also, the claim that armed Monks suffer versus unarmed Monks is pretty hollow, in my opinion. A +10 enchanted kama is going to outmatch a 2d10 unarmed strike every time. They both fully benefit from Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry. You can point to abilities like Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, but these can be done with the elbows, feet, knees, or head just as easily as the hands (plus the Ki Strike enchantment lets you do such abilities with your weapon, as well). The truth of the matter is that a magical kama is going to benefit from enchancement bonuses to hit (seriously helping the Monk overcome that 3/4 BAB of his), as well as enchantments that make that 2d10 damage look pitiful in comparison (a Frost/Flaming/Shock kama alone does 4d6 damage). Your Monk is almost universally better off going with enchanted Monk weapons over unarmed combat. Laterz.
philippe willaume 11-14-05, 04:51 PM	Also, the claim that armed Monks suffer versus unarmed Monks is pretty hollow, in my opinion. A +10 enchanted kama is going to outmatch a 2d10 unarmed strike every time. They both fully benefit from Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry. You can point to abilities like Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, but these can be done with the elbows, feet, knees, or head just as easily as the hands (plus the Ki Strike enchantment lets you do such abilities with your weapon, as well). The truth of the matter is that a magical kama is going to benefit from enchancement bonuses to hit (seriously helping the Monk overcome that 3/4 BAB of his), as well as enchantments that make that 2d10 damage look pitiful in comparison (a Frost/Flaming/Shock kama alone does 4d6 damage). Your Monk is almost universally better off going with enchanted Monk weapons over unarmed combat. Laterz. yes, i can not agree more. try to use it instead of the normal monk weapons damage and that does not really change anything. it barely compensate for the hit average. personally I allow monk to use that empty hand damage for their weapons (but the loose the + to the damage that they would normally get with a + weapon). that is still far behing a good old power attack with a great axe , so i do not think there is that much to cry over.
20goingon1232 11-14-05, 10:12 PM	Also, the claim that armed Monks suffer versus unarmed Monks is pretty hollow, in my opinion. A +10 enchanted kama is going to outmatch a 2d10 unarmed strike every time. They both fully benefit from Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry. You can point to abilities like Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, but these can be done with the elbows, feet, knees, or head just as easily as the hands (plus the Ki Strike enchantment lets you do such abilities with your weapon, as well). The truth of the matter is that a magical kama is going to benefit from enchancement bonuses to hit (seriously helping the Monk overcome that 3/4 BAB of his), as well as enchantments that make that 2d10 damage look pitiful in comparison (a Frost/Flaming/Shock kama alone does 4d6 damage). Your Monk is almost universally better off going with enchanted Monk weapons over unarmed combat. Laterz. To get a +10 weapon, you'd be WELL into Epic play. To add other stuff to it is a pipe dream. Your Frost/Flame/Shock Kama is sitting on +4 total enhancement bonus. That is 32k in gold. Even at maximum of 50% (which is so rare for a real Level 1 to whatever character that it isn't all that funny anymore) of your gold is in that weapon, we are talking, what? Level 10+ minimum? 12? I saw a proposed Monk change once (it was 3.0): You lose: - the ultra increased Monk damage. You get up to 1d10, I believe and it never goes higher and IIRC, the progression was slower down to 2/3 (i.e., a size up every 6 levels instead of 4). - Quivering Palm. The author of that really hated the instant-kill on anything lower than your HD, and he hated the whole Hollywood Kung-Fu crap. - Tongue of Sun and Moon. You gain: - the ability to Flurry with a whole slew of oriental weapons (katana, wakizashi, naginata, jian, etc.) but not the profficiencies. - d10 HD. You are a Fighter, act like one. Remember, in those days, Rangers get d10 HD too. - Iron Fist. Ranged touch attack, Close range, (1/2 your Monk class level)d6 Force damage, 1/day, starting at level 5. Increases by 1/day every 5 levels. - Bonus feats at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter. Basically everything that came out of the Hollywood Monk, he ripped out and put in stuff that made the Monk ORIENTAL.
heretic888 11-16-05, 03:06 PM	To get a +10 weapon, you'd be WELL into Epic play. To add other stuff to it is a pipe dream. Yes, and to get a 2d10 unarmed strike for the Monk you're also into epic levels (the Monk doesn't get such an ability until 20th level). Your Frost/Flame/Shock Kama is sitting on +4 total enhancement bonus. That is 32k in gold. Even at maximum of 50% (which is so rare for a real Level 1 to whatever character that it isn't all that funny anymore) of your gold is in that weapon, we are talking, what? Level 10+ minimum? 12? A 12th level Monk has a 2d6 unarmed strike with magical and lawful enchancement types. The frost/flame/shock katana still wins out (and its a +3 enchancement, not a +4 enchancement) at 4d6 damage with a +1 attack bonus from being masterwork. Again, a well-enchanted Monk weapon is still going to outmatch the Monk's unarmed attacks every time --- unless you're playing in an admittedly low-magic campaign setting. Any Monk character that is going principally with unarmed attacks is just putting him or herself at a distinct disadvantage. - Quivering Palm. The author of that really hated the instant-kill on anything lower than your HD, and he hated the whole Hollywood Kung-Fu crap. Um, okay. - the ability to Flurry with a whole slew of oriental weapons (katana, wakizashi, naginata, jian, etc.) but not the profficiencies. The Monk in Oriental Adventures can already flurry with a bunch of new weapons, you know. - d10 HD. You are a Fighter, act like one. Remember, in those days, Rangers get d10 HD too. Makes sense. - Iron Fist. Ranged touch attack, Close range, (1/2 your Monk class level)d6 Force damage, 1/day, starting at level 5. Increases by 1/day every 5 levels. By "close range", I am going to assume you mean within 30 feet (the same distance as a Rogue's sneak attack).... So, 4 times a day, your Monk gets to do a +10d6 Smite Anything ability that can be done at a distance with your opponent denied armor and shield bonuses to AC (for the most part). - Bonus feats at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter. So, in addition to being able to flurry 1d10 damage weapons, gaining a d10 hit die, and an immensely powerful ranged Smite Anything ability, this new Monk also gains 5 additional bonus feats (on top of the 3 or so bonus feats the class already has). Basically everything that came out of the Hollywood Monk, he ripped out and put in stuff that made the Monk ORIENTAL. I fail to see how this Monk is any more "Oriental" than what it is in the PHB, although it is much more powerful. It also renders the Fighter practically obsolete (the only advantage the Fighter has over the Monk now is a high BAB, a few exclusive feats, and skill-penalizing heavy armor/shields). I don't think the answer is to make the Monk more powerful, as the class already does what it is intended to do (which is not frontline combat) quite well. Rather, I would suggest diversifying the class with a variety of new options. This revision does not do that. Laterz.
NiQil 11-16-05, 03:49 PM	A 12th level Monk has a 2d6 unarmed strike with magical and lawful enchancement types. The frost/flame/shock katana still wins out (and its a +3 enchancement, not a +4 enchancement) at 4d6 damage with a +1 attack bonus from being masterwork. Actually, this a +4 weapon, because the weapon must be +1 in order to add any of the other enhancements to it. Also, one thing to bear in mind with regard to monks....their damage depends a great deal on whether you are going Strength or Dexterity based. A Dexterity-finessed based monk will generally have a higher armor class, while a Strength based monk will generally do more damage. This may also have an effect on the weapons you choose to use.
heretic888 11-16-05, 04:03 PM	Actually, this a +4 weapon, because the weapon must be +1 in order to add any of the other enhancements to it. Ah, I forgot about that. My mistake. ;) Also, one thing to bear in mind with regard to monks....their damage depends a great deal on whether you are going Strength or Dexterity based. A Dexterity-finessed based monk will generally have a higher armor class, while a Strength based monk will generally do more damage. This may also have an effect on the weapons you choose to use. Hrm.... I dunno about that. It might affect what enchantments the Monk will take, but I'm not so sure it would affect the base weapon(s) he or she will choose. Even a high-Strength Monk is probably better off taking one of the special weapons which he or she can apply Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry to. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-16-05, 04:12 PM	Well I am not sure if anyone caught it but I bow'ed out to MindWanderer and Heretic888's greater wisdom on this matter. I was under some clear misconceptions and those two help to enlighten my views so please don't quote some of my previous posts since I was speaking from a skewed perspective so those opinions are largely invalid at this point. as far as the character idea I am still working out, the mechanics of the monk fit best to what I am trying to accomplish, with the only problem being the selection of monk weapons (since i am shooting for a sword that the character can use with his flurry) It is going to come down to a talk with my DM about what i want for the character and how to reach the goal in an acceptable and balanced manner. (it might involve just a customer taylored monk weapon list for the character or possibly something with optional weapon group rules in the unearthed arcana, besides I am only going to keep the character in monk till 11th level cause I would be shooting for greater flurry, then its on to multiclassing.
heretic888 11-16-05, 04:31 PM	Well I am not sure if anyone caught it but I bow'ed out to MindWanderer and Heretic888's greater wisdom on this matter. I was under some clear misconceptions and those two help to enlighten my views so please don't quote some of my previous posts since I was speaking from a skewed perspective so those opinions are largely invalid at this point. Heh. :P Sorry, didn't mean to drag your name in the mud there. I was just trying to elucidate a point about the Monk. as far as the character idea I am still working out, the mechanics of the monk fit best to what I am trying to accomplish, with the only problem being the selection of monk weapons (since i am shooting for a sword that the character can use with his flurry) It is going to come down to a talk with my DM about what i want for the character and how to reach the goal in an acceptable and balanced manner. You and your DM should check out Oriental Adventures. The Monk gains proficiency with a few new weapons (which he can also apply Flurry to), including a Butterfly Sword. This may be similar to what you're looking for. Laterz.
TwistedShadow 11-16-05, 05:06 PM	I remember having glanced through that before, but I don't remember the stats on the butterfly swords, for some reason I keep thinking they are just shortswords with a different name in terms of game mechanics (ie Light, 1d6, 19-20/x2 crit) I was actually looking longsword or bastard sword (in terms of mechanics; 1handed, 1d8 or 1d10 19-20/x2 crit) the visual I have in mind is a blade is straight blade, single edged, 1 handed (2hand optional) The kind of swords you used to see in old samurai movies where its disguised as a walking stick. But I actually envision the character also using a light off hand sword (if I decide to use two weapon fighting) and thrown weapons. Basically kind of think of a cross, in terms of steriotypes, between Samurai, Ninja, and Monk/marshal artist. I think I might actually go for a combo like that if I can get my GM to agree to allowing the cross class without bouncing me out of Monk. I don't know I will have to talk with him about it for a while
20goingon1232 11-16-05, 05:16 PM	Ah, I forgot about that. My mistake. ;) Hrm.... I dunno about that. It might affect what enchantments the Monk will take, but I'm not so sure it would affect the base weapon(s) he or she will choose. Even a high-Strength Monk is probably better off taking one of the special weapons which he or she can apply Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry to. Laterz. Actually, it does. A low Str Monk will want to use unarmed strike for the large damage dice. A high Str one won't care so much about the dice. Close range is 25ft + 5/2 levels. Standard. Also, I stated EXPLICITLY that it was 3.0. Monks were very different back then (no 2d10 unarmed damage for one).
heretic888 11-16-05, 05:31 PM	I remember having glanced through that before, but I don't remember the stats on the butterfly swords, for some reason I keep thinking they are just shortswords with a different name in terms of game mechanics (ie Light, 1d6, 19-20/x2 crit) I was actually looking longsword or bastard sword (in terms of mechanics; 1handed, 1d8 or 1d10 19-20/x2 crit) the visual I have in mind is a blade is straight blade, single edged, 1 handed (2hand optional) I think part of the reason the Monk can only flurry with finesseable weapons is because of the issue of Power Attack and applying 1.5 times one's Strength bonus in combination with Flurry of Blows and Greater Flurry. Plus, the entire notion of flurrying with non-light weapons seems kinda wonky (I would think the extra weight of the weapon would wear your movements down)... Flavor-wise, though, I'm not really sure what the difference between a butterfly sword or shortsword compared to your character concept is. I don't think flurrying with a sword with the same stats as a shortsword would be that big of a deal, unless you're explicitly trying to design a Monk that dishes out more damage than other Monks. That being said, you should work whatever it is you're going for with your DM. Personally, I would be leary of being able to flurry any non-light weapon without at least the cost of a feat. But, that's just me. Laterz.
heretic888 11-16-05, 05:35 PM	Actually, it does. A low Str Monk will want to use unarmed strike for the large damage dice. A high Str one won't care so much about the dice. I'm still not seeing the point here. I'd imagine a flame/frost/shock kama would benefit both Monks about equally. Laterz.
20goingon1232 11-17-05, 04:28 PM	Sure. Just don't run into demons who just happen to have resist any elements, if not outright immunity. We are talking BASE damage here, and to tell you the truth, I don't see why a Monk cannot have gloves that duplicate the kama's shock/frost/flame thing for the same price. The main advantage of weapons is that it opens up slots to throw items on.
q'afuu 11-17-05, 04:38 PM	... I don't see why a Monk cannot have gloves that duplicate the kama's shock/frost/flame thing for the same price. Gloves are not weapons and consequently can't be enhanced as weapons. That's all there's to it.
20goingon1232 11-17-05, 05:28 PM	Gloves are not weapons and consequently can't be enhanced as weapons. That's all there's to it. I suggest you look at the PHB again. Under Gauntlets. And ask yourself the question, "what is a gauntlet?" Get back to me when you are done. I'd be very interested in your results.
tiluvias99 11-17-05, 06:18 PM	I suggest you look at the PHB again. Under Gauntlets. And ask yourself the question, "what is a gauntlet?"I suggest you re-read the rules on gauntlets and unarmed strikes. Here, I'll explain them to you. Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.just to make this easier to understand, lets switch the orders of the sentences: "A strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack, except that this metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes" "otherwise" -> "except that". alrighty then. "this metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes". this does not specify unarmed strikes made with the gauntlet. all it says is unarmed strikes, and because a monk can make unarmed strikes with any part of his body, basically the monk now always deals lethal damage (on any unarmed strike) and takes a -4 penalty if he wants to strike for non-lethal. so, if I put on a metal glove, by the RAW, my feet now automatically deal lethal damage. next line: "A strike with a gauntlet is considered an unarmed attack" unarmed attack: a melee attack made with no weapon in hand unarmed strike: a successful blow... from a character without weapons A monk deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on table 3-10: the monkan unarmed strike is a successful hit with an unarmed attack. a monk deals a fixed amount of damage if they hit with an unarmed attack (based on their level). a gauntlet strike is an unarmed attack. thus: a monk deals that fixed damage when they successfully hit with a gauntlet strike. note that extra damage that comes from the gauntlet itself (such a magic or weapon specialization) does not apply to their damage because the monk wouldn't get that damage on their regular unarmed attacks, and a gauntlet is treated just like a regular unarmed attack. so, gauntlets do absolutely NOTHING but change all of your unarmed strike damage to lethal damage.
20goingon1232 11-17-05, 06:57 PM	Immaterial to what he was saying. Good try at a red herring, though.
tiluvias99 11-17-05, 07:09 PM	the point was to say that even if you had a +99 uber gauntlet of uberness, then you would still ony deal the exact amount of damage you do with an unarmed strike. you would not get the +99 or the uber powers. So, barring magic fang or amulet of mighty fists (and maybe necklace of natural attacks), you can't enchant your unarmed strikes. which is the exact reason that a magical kama wielding monk will kick the ass of a unarmed monk any day.
20goingon1232 11-17-05, 07:26 PM	A WotC approved product, played by many, demolishes your claims.
q'afuu 11-18-05, 09:01 AM	A WotC approved product, played by many, demolishes your claims. It'd be a lot more friendly if you just said which one. As is, this remark contributes nothing. Gloves are not weapons. Some may be - gauntlets, for instance - but certainly not all (fuzzy mittens come to mind). If they are, they come with all the usual weapon rules and regulations: in the case of a monk wielding them, that means non-proficiency unless the character multiclasses appropriately or spend a feat.
solbergb 11-18-05, 11:53 AM	Can you enchant gauntlets? Yes, they're on the PHB weapon list. Will enchanting a gauntlet let a monk have his unarmed strike + enhancements? Probably, although you'll need simple weapon proficiency to not get a -4. Can you flurry with a gauntlet? Nope. It isn't on the list of special monk weapons. The third part is why a kama or similar weapon (nunchucks are popular in campaigns that allow "spikes") is often preferred at higher levels to unarmed strike.