Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreyLord 05-14-05, 04:58 PM	Not quite looking at the requirements currently, but thinking, a Bard who got 10 levels, and then went Eldritch Knight probably would be a more effective Bard. The Bard then has their 12 levels in perform already for something, they are able to cast arcane spells to qualify, and once an eldritch knight, gain levels as they would, as well as getting better hitdice, BAB, and other items. Wouldn't this be a prestige class that overall would seem almost made for the bard. What would the Bard lose by taking Eldritch Knight except for skill points?
Thorak 05-14-05, 05:15 PM	Full casting progression. Skill points. Bardic Music uses, DCs, and options. That latter's a killer. COnsidering how enormously strong some of the bardic music is (Fascinate/Suggestion), I'd rather not give it up for a slightly better BAB and HD. Or at the very least, go with Warchanter from the CW, better HD, full BAB, and designed explicitly around warrior-bards.
GreyLord 05-14-05, 05:17 PM	Which music options would the bard lose...doesn't it max out at 12? And at level 10 the bard would have maxed it out wouldn't he have?
BlaineTog 05-14-05, 05:21 PM	Which music options would the bard lose...doesn't it max out at 12? And at level 10 the bard would have maxed it out wouldn't he have?The loss of DC is a big problem, but he also loses out on a further +2 to Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics, and Mass Suggestion. Not to mention he loses out on skill points. And caster levels. The straight bard is usually going to be better.
GreyLord 05-14-05, 05:40 PM	I don't think he loses any caster levels at all. If I recall (don't have the rules to look at in front of me) Eldritch Knight advances in class spellcasting level every level. He would lose out on performance DC's possibly, but it depends on what the group depends on him most for...to try to charm the enemy (which seems to be iffy and chancy at best, since most of the enemies start having monstrous saves around CR15 anyways) or giving the party a boost. Since he maxes out already on the ability to boost them up, I don't think he'd loose much in the song department. So hence he just loses the skill points overall, but gains in HD, BAB, and retains the spell casting abilities.
JMD999 05-14-05, 05:49 PM	It would be pretty cool, however one of the prerequisites is being proficient with all martial weapons, so a level in fighter or barbarian would be necessary.
Zsasz_Diedne 05-14-05, 06:14 PM	Go Warchanter or Warrior Skald, Skald does require two martial feats (power attack and cleave), but not the "take a level of fighter or barb" prereq(though it fairly screams for a barb/bard combo), it has a full BaB progressions and unlike the chanter, progresses your bardic music. It's a d6 hit die unfortunately so plan accordingly. If you want to be more potent mystically take a look at the Sublime Chord or the Seeker of the Song.
Gingerbread Guy 05-14-05, 06:21 PM	Interesting idea, I hadn't considered that before. Lets look at what a bard would lose/gain from this: Gains: - A much needed feat - better BAB - better fort saves Losses: - daily uses of Bardic Music - one caster level at Eldrich Knight 1 - halted progression of Bardic Knowledge - 4 skill points/level (down to 2+int) - lots of nice class skills So, is it worth it? Thats up to you. The +1/level BAB looks tempting, but remember that even after all 10 levels of Eldrich Knight, your BAB will only be 3 higher than someone who went straight to Bard 20. And as nice as a good BAB is, remember that you have essentially crap hit points and armor class, so its not like your dreams of being a frontline fighter are going to be realised any day soon. Losing daily bardic music uses doesn't seem that bad to me. I mean, how often do you really run out by level 10? Its the loss of skills and access to class skills that frightens me. A bard usually relies on his skills more than other classes (with the exception of the rogue, perhaps). So, in conclusion, does the Eldrich Knight class make you a more effective bard? No, not really. The only thing that will make you a more effective bard is more levels of bard (duh). Will it make you more effective at anything? A little more effective at combat, yeah, but not by much. ~Ginger
TheraerTheWanderingBard 05-14-05, 07:18 PM	I donno...despite the improved BAB i dont think I would want to give up uses of bardic music...i tend to use it a lot... my preferred PrC for a bard is still the Seeker of the Song...or maybe the Mindbender..
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 05-14-05, 09:45 PM	I don't think he loses any caster levels at all. If I recall (don't have the rules to look at in front of me) Eldritch Knight advances in class spellcasting level every level. He would lose out on performance DC's possibly, but it depends on what the group depends on him most for...to try to charm the enemy (which seems to be iffy and chancy at best, since most of the enemies start having monstrous saves around CR15 anyways) or giving the party a boost. Since he maxes out already on the ability to boost them up, I don't think he'd loose much in the song department. So hence he just loses the skill points overall, but gains in HD, BAB, and retains the spell casting abilities. The monstrous saves stand less of a chance versus a Bard with fascinate. DC is performance check. Max ranks is 18 at 15th level, a Charisma bonus of +6 is realistic. So let's assume this base of 24 plus a d20. Since dragons are the superior adversary at the same CR at any level, lets look at their will saves. Old Black Dragon CR 16 Will 16 SR 22 Mature Adult Blue Dragon CR 16 Will 17 SR 22 Mature Adult Green Dragon CR 16 Will 16 SR 22 Adult Red Dragon CR 15 Will 17 SR 21 Old White Dragon CR 15 Will 15 SR 21 Based on adverage die rolls, a bard will always fascinate his opponent, even the ones at CR 16, one level above him. The exact percentages are as follows: Old Black Dragon, bard needs to roll a 7 to get past SR then has an 8 point advantage on the will save. 55% chance of success. Mature Adult Blue Dragon 50% Mature Adult Green Dragon 55% Adult Red Dragon, bard needs a 6 to get past SR and then has a 7 point advantageon the will save. 55% chance of success. Old White Dragon, bard needs a 6 to get past SR and then has a 9 point advantage on the will save. 65% chance of success. Seems better chance than you are giving the bard credit. Feats such as Spell Penetration and Skill Focus Perform, spells such as Heroism, Good Hope, Greater Heroism, and Improvisation (all bardic spells, by the way), and the bardic song Inspire Confidence, will raise the DC for the Will save. Many of these stack.
Ancient Wyrm 05-14-05, 10:05 PM	Go Warchanter or Warrior Skald, Skald does require two martial feats (power attack and cleave), but not the "take a level of fighter or barb" prereq(though it fairly screams for a barb/bard combo), it has a full BaB progressions and unlike the chanter, progresses your bardic music. It's a d6 hit die unfortunately so plan accordingly. If you want to be more potent mystically take a look at the Sublime Chord or the Seeker of the Song. Where is the warrior skald?
Thorak 05-14-05, 10:45 PM	Kullak hit it before I could; Fascinate's DC is so grossly huge that nothing can top it, if the encounter is close to the right CR. A decent roll means that even much higher CR creatures will almost certainly fail. And once they're Fascinated, while the DC for Suggestion is much lower, they sit there and do nothing while you keep Suggesting to them. Even at level 6, that's 6 Suggestions. You might probably pass any one, but the chances of failing one of the several is much, much higher. For instance, if you need a 1 to fail the save, a level 20 Bard will sneak a Suggestion past you roughly 2/3 of the time. And for those tough enemies, there's absolutely nothing preventing you from Fascinating them a second time before they can do anything, and continuing with the Suggestions.
GreyLord 05-19-05, 09:30 PM	Does one really need to take a Fighter or Barbarian...all I think it says is that they must be profficient in all martial weapons...so be a human and take the martial weapons profficiency. One gains +2 Cons as a Gnome...but it gives no CHA bonus and in fact gives a -2 STR bonus if I remember correctly. Some might say it's a waste of a feat...but if you get that feat...I believe you could go pure Bard until 10th level, and then take Eldritch Knight. If you go over 20th level...and go epic...you can then gain more Bardic levels probably, gain your songs...(loss of feats unfortunately since you wouldn't be 20th level bard at 20th level) but would keep the spellcasting levels and BAB...and could maybe even at that point concentrate on something else even perhaps getting up to max bardic casting level...etc. OR if for a lower level campaign, I think the Bard would qualify at 7th level. Of course in that same light...I think a Human wizard who did that would qualify at 6th level...hmmm.
BlaineTog 05-19-05, 10:32 PM	I don't think he loses any caster levels at all. If I recall (don't have the rules to look at in front of me) Eldritch Knight advances in class spellcasting level every level.He loses a caster level at first and has to have a level of Fightr or Barbarian to qualify (Paladin would do it too, but that brings other things in that you probably don't want). He would lose out on performance DC's possibly, but it depends on what the group depends on him most for...to try to charm the enemy (which seems to be iffy and chancy at best, since most of the enemies start having monstrous saves around CR15 anyways) or giving the party a boost. Since he maxes out already on the ability to boost them up, I don't think he'd loose much in the song department.He CAN'T max out as a "boost the party" unless he goes high-level bard because his Inspire Courage will be crappier and he doesn't get Inspire Heroics. So hence he just loses the skill points overall, but gains in HD, BAB, and retains the spell casting abilities.Even if he did lose nothing for spellcasting, Skill Points are BIG DEAL for the bard. What's more, he *does* lose out on quite a bit on Bardic Music, one of his best abilities. Overall, it's not a completelly terrible way to go, but it's not as good as straight bard IMO.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 05-20-05, 12:55 AM	Does one really need to take a Fighter or Barbarian...all I think it says is that they must be profficient in all martial weapons...so be a human and take the martial weapons profficiency. Martial Weapon proficiency only gives you access to ONE martial weapon. The fighter classes are proficient in ALL martial weapons. The One gains +2 Cons as a Gnome...but it gives no CHA bonus and in fact gives a -2 STR bonus if I remember correctly. Some might say it's a waste of a feat...but if you get that feat...I believe you could go pure Bard until 10th level, and then take Eldritch Knight. A gnome receives -2 STR +2 Con, is small sized so deals less damage as their weapons are small. You cannot become an Eldritch Knight without being proficient in ALL martial weapons. There are 33 martial weapons and each require the Martial Weapon feat. One level of Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian will meet that requirement. I prefer Ranger due to the additional skill points. If you go over 20th level...and go epic...you can then gain more Bardic levels probably, gain your songs...(loss of feats unfortunately since you wouldn't be 20th level bard at 20th level) but would keep the spellcasting levels and BAB...and could maybe even at that point concentrate on something else even perhaps getting up to max bardic casting level...etc. OR if for a lower level campaign, I think the Bard would qualify at 7th level. Of course in that same light...I think a Human wizard who did that would qualify at 6th level...hmmm. A wizard could not do it either without a level of the fighter types due to the same reason.
Zyfax 05-20-05, 03:20 AM	well, in my group, where combat isn't important (mostly), we baically race to who gets to play the bard. in non-combat situations, they are almost broken. in dungeon crawls, they suck. we almost considered banning bards because of the insane amounts of suggestions they could make.
q'afuu 05-20-05, 03:27 AM	He loses a caster level at first and has to have a level of Fightr or Barbarian to qualify (Paladin would do it too, but that brings other things in that you probably don't want). Paladin would be nice, especially for two levels (Divine Grace, yay!) but bards can't be lawful, short of a houserule. A paladin becoming chaotic or neutral would keep the proficiencies, but lose most of the other benefits. That'd hardly be worth it.
CaoSlayer 05-20-05, 04:01 AM	ummm... that multiclass sucks, I usually use the eld. knight as a example of how prcs usually tend to make bard weaker than stronger... People have already explained the reasons. just 4 levels in a full BAB class or prc for getting the main reason of getting this prc, it is to get an extra attack before epic levels when you cant improve anymore your BAB. Think a little, dude... just 4 levels in one of those fighter/mage classes with half caster progresion will result in the same level 18 spellcasting (considering one level multiclass for requirements) the same number of attacks and specially a full load of special features and flavour. In this list fits perfectly the bladesinger and/or the spellsword, the dragon disciple also can be used to improve your number of level 6 spells. Eldritch knight only would be viable if you adquire levels on Sublime chord.
CaoSlayer 05-20-05, 04:03 AM	Paladin would be nice, especially for two levels (Divine Grace, yay!) but bards can't be lawful, short of a houserule. A paladin becoming chaotic or neutral would keep the proficiencies, but lose most of the other benefits. That'd hardly be worth it. There is some feat somewhere named devoted performer that allows to multiclass bard and paladin with stacking levels in some features.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 05-20-05, 04:28 AM	well, in my group, where combat isn't important (mostly), we baically race to who gets to play the bard. in non-combat situations, they are almost broken. in dungeon crawls, they suck. we almost considered banning bards because of the insane amounts of suggestions they could make. I think you need to go back to the book and reread all the nifty things a bard can do in a dungeon crawl. I made some mistakes with my bard in the beginning since I thought, much like everyone else, a bard is just a social character. Stats were generated by 5d6, so my character has above adverage statistics Bard 15th Str 14 (18) Dex 16 (18) Con 14 (16) Int 19 (23) Wis 12 (16) Cha 16 (20) F11/R16/W16 AC 28 Cold Iron Holy Longsword +1 16/11/6 Adamantine Morningstar +1 Bane Undead 16/11/6 Skills: Bluff 25/Concentration 16/Diplomacy 29/Gather Information 16/ intimidate 14/ Knowleges Arcana 15, History 13, Local 11, Nobility 13, Planes 15/ Listen 23/Perform 26/Sense Motive 23/Spellcraft 22/Tumble 12/Use Magic Device 23 Feats: Skill Focus Perform, Persuasive, Improved Inititive, Craft Arms and Armor, Combat Expertise, Arcane Strike, Ironskin Chant Spells: 0- Detect magic, Light, Lullaby, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Resistance 1- Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Grease, Summon Monster 1 2- Cure Moderate Wounds, Heroism, Rage, Silence 3- Cure Serious Wounds, Good Hope, Haste, Sculpt Sound 4- Cure Critical Wounds, Greater Invisibility, Legend Lore, Shout 5- Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Herosim, Improvisation Ok, what does this all mean? It means I am the most versitile player in my party. I can play these roles. Cleric: I can heal party members or myself at full caster level. Fighter: Offensive Arcane Strike adds a +1 to hit and +1d4 damage per spell level, I sacrifice as a free action for 1 round. So when I am in combat, I usually have Good Hope, Haste, and Inspire Greatness song. So my 16/11/6 turns into 21/21/16/11 whch can become 26/26/21/16 with Arcane Strike. The damage would go from 1d8 + 5 + 2d6 if evil (or undead if using Bane weapon with +2 to hit and damage) to 1d8 + 5d4 + 7 plus Holy damage if applicable. That's per hit. If 3 attacks hit an evil opponent, I deal an adverage of 91 points of damage. I believe my max damage record in one round has been 134. Defense: Combine Haste, Inspire heroics, Tumble defensively, and Combat Expertise to get up to an EXTRA 13 ponts to AC. That's a 41 AC. I won't hit that round, but having the option to either doorstop an opponent, or go offensively is very handy. Ironskin Chant allows me to give one person DR 5/- for a round as a swift action. Rogue: Most of my Move Silent and Hide abilities are from magic. But with Improvisation, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Good Hope, and Inspire Confidence, I usually can add 6 to any of my skill checks and up to 13 with a single check under Improvisation. Wizard: I have most of the knowledges covered, but I also have a fun selection of offensive, defensive, and utility spells. I would probably change Grease to Friendly Face, Rage to Sonic Weapon, I prefer Sculpt Sound to Glibness despite the bonuses, and Legend Lore to Freedom of Movement. Use Magic Device also helps. My character has the social skills to talk his way out of a fight, he has the feats to stay in one, the Knowledges and Intellegence to know an opponents weaknesses, skills and spells to know the opponent before facing it, and I can face golems and undead as easily as dragons and giants. I can definately be out damaged, out magicked, out healed, and out skilled, but I will be number two in every situation compared to anyone in the group. Did I mention I can can enhance the party to deal damage as well?
CzarGarrett 05-20-05, 08:30 AM	Bard is one of those classes that unless taking a Bard-specific PrC, its better to go straight 20 levels of Bard. The benefits of it are just so enormous that it would be insane to not stick with it.
CaoSlayer 05-20-05, 11:38 AM	I think you need to go back to the book and reread all the nifty things a bard can do in a dungeon crawl. I made some mistakes with my bard in the beginning since I thought, much like everyone else, a bard is just a social character. Nice, nice... have you throught about the old grease + rogue combo (everyone in grease area who dont have 5 ranks on balance loses their bonus to dex.) or rogue + improved invisibility ones? also if your master allows song & silence... he will ban the bards if you take fanfarre spell at level 16th. :rolleyes: , most broken spell ever.
Loophole Hider 05-21-05, 08:51 AM	I have 3 nice builds i have found. Bard 10 / Warchanter 10, Continues the bardic music, TWO SONGS AT ONCE later on, and the one that gives EVERYONE the Fighter or Barbarians BAB whild he/she sings. Bard 2 / Rogue 2 / Shugenja 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 / xxxxx 5 You can substitute a level of bard for sorcerer if you want better casting. the other build i found, based on spell casting is: Rogue 2 / yyyyy 1 / xxxxx 1 / Bard 1 /Fochlucan Lyrist 10 / Mystic Thurge 5 yyyyy is an arcane spellcaster with 1st level spells at level 1. xxxxx is a divine spellcaster with 1st level spells at level 1. You get 4 lost caster levels, (lose 9th lvl spells) (Shugenja and Sorc are my favorite - both spontanious). You get Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, 16 levels of both divine and arcane spells, trapfinding, evasion. Its, to my knowlegde, better than the Mystic Thurge build.
Kintara 05-21-05, 12:16 PM	You need to learn to speak Druidic to take Fochlucan Lyrist. Many DMs will find it cheesy to get it any other way than taking a level in Druid. Also, you need to be level 10 to take the class because of the Perform requirement. So you'll need to take Mystic Theurge first, if that's possible (though Arcane Hierophant would be better).
Zsasz_Diedne 05-21-05, 01:09 PM	1. The Warrior Skald is in Races of Faerun 2. As was mentioned your not getting FL without at least two levels of Druid 3. The EK is the staple of many a Gish build, some of which include Bard levels, but not to the extent as taken here, which really just gimps you. I do not agree however, that Bard 20 is the only option. With PrC's like the FL, Warrior Skald, Spellsinger, Seeker of the Song, Warchanter, Sublime Chord, the Viruouso and the much overlooked Dragonsong Lyrist, the Bard has a nice suite of options available that just didn't exist before.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-21-05, 09:22 PM	unless i'm mistaken, Lyrist requires second level spells of both types, making it pretty much unbreakable.
CaoSlayer 05-22-05, 04:14 PM	troubadour of the stars from Bo Exalted Deeds also it is a good options althrought seems crappy at a first glance, the fact of having the cleric spell holy word as a song it is nearly broken... can means to stun every foe up to 20 rounds without save.