Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lotus Crane 01-21-07, 05:12 PM	Based in part on something Kary said the other day (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=774101), and on the recent needs of my own campaign, I've drafted this non-spellcasting version of the ranger. It relies on both published (though tweaked somewhat, to avoid violations) and homebrew variants, alternate features, and substitutitions, to make up for the lack of powerful options that only spells can normally provide (recent ranger spells are awesome btw, and easily explain why even RAW rangers are superior to fighters in archery). Thematically, this ranger is much less nature-based as well; he's more like a military ranger, or a bounty hunter, than the noble woodsman archetype set by characters like Aragorn. Mechanically, this ranger should be well-balanced against the standard one, until you take into account the recent Swift Hunter feat in Complete Scoundrel, since this takes better advantage of it than a RAW ranger would. (My recommendation to concerned DM's is not to prohibit the combination outright, but rather, to require multi-classed characters with the feat to maintain at least as many ranger levels as scout levels to retain the benefits of the feat. A multi-variant ranger 1/scout 19 with Swift Hunter would be rather abusive, but a mv-ranger 10/scout 10 should be fair, and a mv-ranger 17/scout 3 is probably a bit weaker than a standard ranger 17/scout 3.) MULTI-VARIANT RANGER Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8. Class Skills The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Table: The Ranger Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored enemy/environment (+2), tracking method 2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Combat style 3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance 4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Distracting attack 5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored enemy/environment (+4) 6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Improved combat style 7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Tracking method 8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Swift tracker 9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Evasion 10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd favored enemy/environment (+6) 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Greater combat style 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Uncanny dodge 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Diehard 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th favored enemy/environment (+8) 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Superior combat style 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in plain sight 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Combat style mastery 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th favored enemy/environment (+10) Class Features All of the following are class features of the ranger. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields). Favored Enemy/Environment (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table, and the bonus against all favored enemies increases to the amount indicated on the table. If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he does not have to choose an associated subtype, but he only applies 50% of his normal bonus against such enemies, due to their great diversity, and thus his more generalized knowledge of how to fight them. A ranger may also select an organization, such as a thieves' guild, merchant house, or city guard, as a favored enemy. He applies 100% of his normal bonus against all members of such groups, regardless of their creature type. Alternatively, a ranger may choose a favored environment. The ranger gains a bonus (of an amount equal to what his normal favored enemy bonus would be) on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills in that environment. He also gains the same bonus on Knowledge checks made in association with that environment. For most environments, this is Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (nature), but underground, and in caves and dungeons, Knowledge (dungeoneering) might apply, and in cities, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and Knowledge (local) would be more appropriate. A ranger with a favored environment also adds this bonus on saving throws and Constitution checks made to endure or avoid the natural conditions and hazards of appropriate terrain, such as extreme heat in a dessert, drowning and pressure damage underwater, or avalanches and rockslides (natural occurrences only, not deliberate attacks) in the mountains. Finally, a ranger gains an increase to his movement speed (for all forms of movement he has access to) in a favored environment, equal to 250% of his normal bonuses (thus +5, +10, +15, +20, +25 movement speed). If a ranger with both a favored enemy and a favored environment, encounters a creature of appropriate type in appropriate terrain, the bonuses on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival do not stack; despite being unnamed bonuses, they are both coming from essentially the same source (favored environment is just a variant of favored enemy). So for example, a 20th level ranger with favored enemy (animal) and favored environment (cold/temperate forest) would still only have a +10 bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks when hunting deer in the woods, rather than +20. Table: Ranger Favored Enemies Type Type Aberration Magical Beast Animal Monstrous humanoid Construct Ooze Dragon Organization Elemental Outsider Fey Plant Giant Undead Humanoid Vermin Table: Ranger Favored Environments Environment Examples Aquatic Sea, ocean (on or under water) City Streets, rooftops, inside buildings Desert, cold Tundra Desert, temperate or warm Badlands, sandy desert Forest, cold or temperate Forest Forest, warm Jungle Hills Rugged terrain up to 2,000 feet elevation Marsh Bog, moor, swamp Mountain Rugged terrain above 2,000 feet elevation Plains Farmland, grassland, steppe, prairie Underground Dungeons, caverns Tracking Method (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select either Track or Urban Tracking as a bonus feat. If he selects Track, he adds Escape Artist and Handle Animal to his list of class skills; if he selects Urban Tracking, he adds Bluff and Sense Motive to his list of class skills. At 7th level, he learns the other tracking method, gaining the feat he didn't select at 1st level, and adding the two other skills to his class skill list. If a ranger already has both Track and Urban Tracking, he may instead select another feat, but he must meet all the prerequisites for it, including ability score and base attack minimums. Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way. If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. At the Dungeon Master's discretion, if ranger already has these feats before these levels (which may be the case for a multi-classed character who takes ranger levels late), he may instead choose another feat appropriate to that combat style (such as Point Blank Shot for archery, or Two-Weapon Defense for two-weapon combat). However, in these cases, the ranger must have the normal prerequisites for the feat. This guideline applies to Improved Combat Style and Greater Combat as well. Endurance: A ranger gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level. If he already has Endurance, he may instead select another feat, but he must meet all the prerequisites for it, including ability score and base attack minimums. Distracting Attack (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged), that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of abjudicating your allies' attacks, regardless of your actual position. For example, if you hit an enemy (in melee but not from a directly opposite side, or even with a ranged attack), and then your rogue ally attacked that enemy, not only would she gain a +2 bonus on her melee attack roll, but she could also apply her sneak attack damage to a successful hit. This flanked condition lasts until either the enemy is attacked by one of your allies or until the start of your next turn, whichever comes first. This ability has no effect on creatures that can't be flanked. Improved Combat Style (Ex): At 6th level, a ranger’s aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Manyshot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. As before, the benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty on his Survival check. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while using the Track feat. He may also make a Gather Information check for his Urban Tracking feat every half hour without taking the normal -5 penalty. Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ranger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of evasion. If a ranger already has evasion from a different class, he automatically gains improved evasion instead. Greater Combat Style (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger’s aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves again. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Improved Precise Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. As before, the benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a ranger can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a ranger already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Diehard: A ranger gains Diehard as a bonus feat at 14th level. If he already has Diehard, he may instead select another feat, but he must meet all the prerequisites for it, including ability score and base attack minimums. Superior Combat Style (Ex): At 16th level, a ranger’s aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves even more. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Defensive Archery feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Superior Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. As before, the benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 17th level, a ranger can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a ranger can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. Combat Style Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a ranger’s aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) is perfected. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is now able to make ranged attacks of opportunity against foes within 30 feet of himself. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, when he successfully hits an opponent with both his primary and his off-hand weapon during the same attack action, that opponent counts as flat-footed against the rest of his attacks for 1 full round. As before, the benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Lotus Crane 01-21-07, 05:15 PM	RANGER RACIAL SUBSTITUTIONS These racial substitutions are optional, not mandatory; rangers of these races are allowed to keep the standard ranger features instead. An entire set of alternate features must be taken as a package; allowing a character to pick and choose them separately could potentially upset their balance. DWARVEN RANGER Hit Die: The dwarven ranger uses a d10 for his Hit Die (and has hit points at 1st level equal to 10 + Con modifier). Class Skills: Remove Ride from the dwarven ranger's list of class skills. He gains skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level). Base Save Bonuses: A dwarven ranger has good Fortitude and Will saves, but has poor Reflex saves. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dwarven ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Favored Enemy/Environment (Ex): If a dwarven ranger selects giants as a favored enemy, he applies 150% of his normal favored enemy bonus against them. If he selects mountains or underground as a favored environment, he benefits from 150% of his normal favored environment bonus in appropriate terrain. Tracking Method (Ex): A dwarven ranger does not add Escape Artist and Handle Animal to his list of class skills when he gains the Track feat, and he does not add Bluff and Sense Motive to his list of class skills when he gains the Urban Tracking feat. Combat Style (Ex): A dwarven ranger may maintain the benefits of his combat style (including improved combat style, greater combat style, superior combat style, and combat style mastery) while wearing up to medium armor. He still loses the benefits of his combat style while wearing heavy armor. Mettle (Ex): At 9th level, a dwarven ranger can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial) he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping dwarven ranger does not gain the benefit of mettle. If a dwarven ranger already has mettle from a different class, he automatically gains improved mettle instead. A dwarven ranger does not gain the evasion ability. ELVEN RANGER Hit Die: The elven ranger uses a d6 for his Hit Die (and has hit points at 1st level equal to 6 + Con modifier). Class Skills: Add Balance and Tumble to the elven ranger's list of class skills. He gains skill points equal to 8 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level). Favored Enemy/Environment (Ex): In addition to the normal list of favored enemies, an elven ranger may designate orcs (rather than humanoids in general) or servants of Lolth (which includes drow, driders, monstrous spiders, and avatars of Lolth) as a favored enemy. If an elven ranger selects orcs, servants of Lolth, or undead as a favored enemy, he applies 150% of his normal favored enemy bonus against them. If he selects cold/temperate forests or warm forests as a favored environment, he benefits from 150% of his normal favored environment bonus in appropriate terrain. An elven ranger also has the option of developing a favored defense against servants of Lolth, which counts as one of his favored enemy/environment choices. If he selects this option, he applies 50% of his normal favored enemy bonus as a bonus on saving throws against the spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and poison of drow, driders, monstrous spiders, and avatars of Lolth. NEW OR REVISED FEATS DEFENSIVE ARCHERY [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 15, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +3. Benefit: You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attacking with a ranged weapon in melee. Normal: Attacking with a ranged weapon in melee provokes attacks of opportunity. Special: A fighter may select Defensive Archery as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 16th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Defensive Archery, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. EXTENDED PRECISION [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 17, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +5. Benefit: The maximum range at which you can make precision-based special attacks increases to 60 feet. This includes bonus damage from the skirmish, sneak attack, and sudden strike abilities, as well as the benefits of feats such as Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sunder. Normal: The maximum range at which you can make precision-based special attacks is 30 feet. Special: A fighter may select Extended Precision as one of his fighter bonus feats. A scout may select Extended Precision as one of his scout bonus feats. EXTRA FAVORED ENEMY/ENVIRONMENT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Favored enemy/environment. Benefit: You may designate an additional favored enemy or environment. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, choose a different additional favored enemy or environment. FAVORED ENEMY FOCUS [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Favored enemy. Benefit: You may add 50% of your normal favored enemy bonus as a bonus on weapon attack rolls against all favored enemies. GREATER TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11. Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon during a full attack, albeit at a –10 penalty. You are also able to make an extra attack with an off-hand weapon during a standard attack or an attack of opportunity. Special: A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. IMPROVED FAVORED ENEMY/ENVIRONMENT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Favored enemy/environment. Benefit: Your favored enemy and environment bonus increases by 2. This number may be modified for specific groups or benefits, as normal for the ability (for example, an extra +2 to favored environment actually translates to +5 movement speed in all favored environments). IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6. Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon during a full attack, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty. You are also able to make an extra attack with an off-hand weapon during a charge or a Whirlwind Attack. Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon. Special: A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. POWERFUL TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Str 15, Dex 15, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting. Benefit: You are able to use a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as if it were a light weapon. Also, you may apply your Strength bonus instead of 1/2 your Strength bonus to weapon damage with an off-hand weapon, whether it is a light weapon, one-handed weapon, or part of a double weapon. Special: A fighter may select Powerful Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. PRECISE MANYSHOT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +7. Benefit: When you use the Manyshot feat, your penalties on attack rolls are reduced by half. Thus, when you fire two arrows with a standard action, you only have a -2 penalty on your attack rolls. When you fire three arrows, you have a -3 penalty, and when you fire four arrows, you have a -4 penalty. Normal: When you use the Manyshot feat, you normally take a -4 penalty for firing two arrows with a standard action, plus a cumulative -2 penalty for each additional arrow. Special: A fighter may select Precise Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A scout may select Precise Manyshot as one of his scout bonus feats. SUPERIOR TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 19, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +16. Benefit: You get a fourth attack with your off-hand weapon during a full attack, albeit at a –15 penalty. Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are also reduced by 1. Finally, whenever you are entitled to an extra attack with your primary hand (such as when affected by the haste spell or while wielding a speed weapon), you may also make an additional attack with your off-hand at the corresponding (usually highest) attack bonus. Special: A fighter may select Superior Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 16th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack on a full attack with the second weapon. Prerequisite: Dex 13. Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
ShinoAburame 01-21-07, 05:40 PM	I like it, it's neat, and very proffessional looking. Good job.
Kary Wanzer 01-21-07, 10:19 PM	:w: Well hon, that's another bit of work you've managed to save me the trouble of doing myself. ;)
Lotus Crane 01-22-07, 02:43 AM	Hmm, well, the support is nice, but I think I need a little more feedback, and more in-depth (perhaps even critical) feedback. Responses are a bit slower than what I'd originally expected; is it a sign that I've given far too much for the loss of spellcasting? Please don't tell me that nowadays, threads only get attention when they have inflamatory premises, an obnoxious PEACH in their title, or lots of unnecessary exclamation and question marks? >_< I would hate to resort to such lowbrow vulgarities.
nonsi 01-22-07, 04:22 AM	I liked the thematics and the class is well structured. 2 comments: 1. Distracting attack is way way too powerful, even at high levels. I'd suggest Uncanny Dodge instead, IUD at 13th level and Improved Evasion at 18th level. This would reflect the Ranger's high combat alertness. 2. Regarding Superior Combat Style, the part with the extra attack on top of extra attack is also too powerful. Other than the above, great class.
Lotus Crane 01-22-07, 04:38 AM	Distracting attack is way way too powerful, even at high levels. Truthfully, I think the animal companion is more useful in most cases; distracting attack provides exactly zero benefit to a ranger operating solo (which presumably will be the case with a PC ranger scouting ahead of the party, or a NPC ranger tracking the party down). But more importantly than that, please look at page 55 of the Player's Handbook II. Distracting attack is one alternate feature that I couldn't really find a reason to tweak from what was published; in other words, WotC officially supports that ability. (Before somebody accuses me of violating CoC or worse, I'd like to plead the "educational purposes" provision for referencing limited amounts of such material in this thread.) Regarding Superior Combat Style, the part with the extra attack on top of extra attack is also too powerful. Two-weapon combat is universally agreed to be an underpowered fighting style to begin with; practically any attempt to make it more powerful is justified. That being said, 1) the ranger would have to be hasted or using a speed weapon anyway, which is never guaranteed, 2) at that level, we're talking about the difference between 8 attacks per round, and 9. The difference between 1 and 2 is 100%; the difference between 8 and 9 is 12.5%. By the time a ranger will acquire superior combat style, feats like Improved Critical, or buffs like bardic music, will be generating a larger difference in the ranger's damage output per round than a measly 9th attack will. However, all in all, despite my having to shoot down your somewhat faulty claims, I thank you for adding the momentum of another response to this thread. And it's not that I refuse to accept the basic argument that I've made the ranger overpowered; rather, it's how I may have made it overpowered, and there are certain points I'm waiting for people to bring up. I basically know that distracting attack, and superior combat style and combat style mastery for two-weapon combat, are fine as written; it would require naysaying from people like Kary, Otto, Polaris, Seerow, Zherog, and so forth to convince me I'm mistaken about them. What I really want detailed opinions for (both pro and con), are the changes to favored enemy, and the superior combat style and combat style mastery for archery, because those are the things I have a nagging fear might be too powerful. To a lesser degree, I'm also worried about the possibility that while no individual element of the revised class is broken, I may have tipped the scales with the sheer quantity of abilities overall.
nonsi 01-22-07, 08:10 AM	Truthfully, I think the animal companion is more useful in most cases; distracting attack provides exactly zero benefit to a ranger operating solo Yes, but given a Rogue ally, it becomes absolutely murderous. (which presumably will be the case with a PC ranger scouting ahead of the party, or a NPC ranger tracking the party down). And what's to stop the Rogue from tagging along ?! But more importantly than that, please look at page 55 of the Player's Handbook II. Distracting attack is one alternate feature that I couldn't really find a reason to tweak from what was published; in other words, WotC officially supports that ability. 1. Given the obvious imbalance between the base classes, I dare claim this is not the main issue on their minds. 2. If I got it correctly, only the animal companion can perform Distracting attack, and only in regards to the Ranger. It supposes to have to do with their special bond. Two-weapon combat is universally agreed to be an underpowered fighting style to begin with With Double attack and TWD tree and TW-rend, I'm not sure this is still the case. 1) the ranger would have to be hasted or using a speed weapon anyway, which is never guaranteed Hardly an effort. 2) at that level, we're talking about the difference between 8 attacks per round, and 9. If to be accurate, that's 3 max-BAB attacks (the ones that really count) against 2. By the time a ranger will acquire superior combat style, feats like Improved Critical, or buffs like bardic music, will be generating a larger difference in the ranger's damage output per round than a measly 9th attack will. I can't think of anything that would stop a Ranger from taking Improved Critical. I basically know that distracting attack, and superior combat style and combat style mastery for two-weapon combat, are fine as written; it would require naysaying from people like Kary, Otto, Polaris, Seerow, Zherog, and so forth to convince me I'm mistaken about them. Since you mentioned naysaying, I'd be most happy to hear your view regarding my revised rules in " Unearthed Arcana and House Rules". What I really want detailed opinions for (both pro and con), are the changes to favored enemy, and the superior combat style and combat style mastery for archery, because those are the things I have a nagging fear might be too powerful. To a lesser degree, I'm also worried about the possibility that while no individual element of the revised class is broken, I may have tipped the scales with the sheer quantity of abilities overall. superior combat style and combat style mastery for archery seem just fine to me for these levels and I can actually imagine such maneuvers. LOTR-I underground encounter, where Legolas hailed his arrows seemed possible mechanically (as opposed to Lego-ninja running at 60 degrees upward on the raging Olifant's behind). regarding Favored Enemy/Environment... Bluff & Sense Motive should be applied to <Enemy> Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot & Survival should be applied to <Environment> Stacking the bonus is way too much in my book (I only just noticed it). At level 20 we're talking 5 different opponent-CATEGORIES against which you gain +10 to damage per strike (and what exactly are you supposed to be targeting when facing an ooze or an undead ?!?) For favorite terrain you make the Rogue (the supposed-to-be true skill monkey of all base classes) eat dust skill-wise - even with skills he selects for skill mastery. This get even crazier at epic levels.
Lotus Crane 01-22-07, 12:42 PM	Yes, but given a Rogue ally, it becomes absolutely murderous. Distracting attack only causes an enemy to be flat-footed against a single attack by an ally, or until 1 round passes, whichever comes first. A rogue ally won't be able to execute the notorious full sneak attack with that ability alone. The entire point of distracting attack is that it allows a ranger to "flank" at range; if he has to close to melee and actually flank with a rogue ally so that she can pull of full sneak attacks, then the distracting attack ability isn't even making a difference. If I got it correctly, only the animal companion can perform Distracting attack, and only in regards to the Ranger. It supposes to have to do with their special bond. Actually no, it is the ranger who performs the distracting attack; and a ranger with distracting attack loses the ability to have an animal companion. With Double attack and TWD tree and TW-rend, I'm not sure this is still the case. The problem is that two-weapon combat is far too feat-intensive. Two-weapon combat can do as much damage as two-handed weapon combat, but the terrible problem is, it requires 3-9 feats to do so; somebody using a two-handed weapon can essentially do as much damage as much damage with 0-3 feats. In other words, a TWFer requires 3 times as many feats to only do as much damage as a 2HWer. Not every character can afford those feats; really, only a fighter or ranger can. And even then, a fighter is better off taking special attack (ie Improved Trip) and tactical (ie Shock Troopers) feats. Honestly, even with newer feats like Two-Weapon Rend (which doesn't help that much, since it costs yet another feat that most characters couldn't even afford to spend on Greater TWF), two-weapon combat being underpowered is fact, not opinion. Head over to the character optimization boards, and they can give you irrefutable, mathematical proof that 9 times out of 10, going the TWF route hurts you more than it hurts the enemy. I can't think of anything that would stop a Ranger from taking Improved Critical. Nor I; the reason I brought it up is because superior combat style is a 16th level ability, and combat style mastery is a 19th level ability. Generally speaking, those things are supposed to be powerful (8th and 9th level spells, anyone?), and yet a simple feat available at 8th, or bardic music available at 1st, will do more to increase his damage than his own 16th and 19th level abilities. Don't you think it's sad, and perhaps underpowered, for 16th and 19th level unique class abilities to be overshadowed by a 1st level buff or a 8th level feat? superior combat style and combat style mastery for archery seem just fine to me for these levels and I can actually imagine such maneuvers. If anything though, they're definately better than the two-weapon combat ones. regarding Favored Enemy/Environment... Bluff & Sense Motive should be applied to <Enemy> Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot & Survival should be applied to <Environment> I'm well aware of what's published, and the drastic improvement to favored enemy/environment was intentional, since that's the main compensation for the loss of spellcasting (if you've noticed, this ranger can't cast spells). So I added Hide & Move Silently to favored enemy, and Search & environmental saves & Con checks to favored environment, as well as increase the final numbers (see below). Incidentally, the elven ranger variant in Races of the Wild was the first to introduce the idea of applying favored enemy bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks against that enemy. Stacking the bonus is way too much in my book (I only just noticed it). At level 20 we're talking 5 different opponent-CATEGORIES against which you gain +10 to damage per strike (and what exactly are you supposed to be targeting when facing an ooze or an undead ?!?) 1) Ranger spells include amazing things like hunter's mercy. So yes, I felt that instead of a final favored enemy progression of +10/+2/+2/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+4/+4/+2 or so on (a total of 18 points worth of bonus), +10/+10/+10/+10/+10 would be fair for the loss of spells. 2) Favored enemy is not a precision-based ability. It does not require an enemy to be flanked or flat-footed, it has no maximum range, it can affect creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attack, and it applies to every arrow fired by Manyshot. Favored enemy works more like Weapon Specialization, barbarian rage, or smite evil; it is the product of technique and in many cases, pure hatred of the enemy (which is why in older editions, only evil rangers could choose their own creature type as a favored enemy, because apparently only evil people would hate their own kind). So a ranger facing ooze and undead doesn't say "where is their weak point for me to target," he says "FEEL THE POWER OF MY BURNING HATRED, I don't care that you don't have a viable anatomy for me to exploit, EVERY BLOW I LAND (on you, my favored/hated enemy) IS LIKE THAT OF TEN OTHER MEN!" 3) Just like how favored enemy bonuses don't stack even if a particular enemy has more than one creature type (or a type and class or organization, in some cases), favored enemy and favored environment bonuses don't stack either (so no +20 Hide vs a favored enemy who's carelessly entered your favorite environment), because in a sense, they are just different sides of the same ability. For favorite terrain you make the Rogue (the supposed-to-be true skill monkey of all base classes) eat dust skill-wise - even with skills he selects for skill mastery. The rogue is still generally better at skills, especially with regards to overcoming traps, and in social situations. Furthermore, any individual environment is only likely to be used 5-25% (avg 9%? not counting planes) of the time. If it's a ranger's favored environment, and he only gets to be in it a fraction of the time, I think it's very fair that he becomes temporarily better at skills than the rogue in that sort of terrain. And btw, despite having a few less skill points per level, the bard is probably the "true skill monkey" of 3.5, based on his skill-boosting buffs (glibness for +30 Bluff, anyone?), and his more recent alternate features, such as bardic knack from the PHB II. Now, before we get any further here, I just want to make sure we're on the same page: Do you have a copy of, or have at least read, Complete Adventurer, Player's Handbook II, and the Spell Compendium? Because if you haven't, we may not be considering the same options with regards to the balance of both the standard ranger, and the one I present here. Based on how you were seemingly unaware that distracting attack is an officially supported alternate feature, it's possible that some of my other changes only look powerful, because you don't know just how powerful a standard ranger can be. For example, are you familiar with the ranger spell hunter's mercy?
Kary Wanzer 01-22-07, 08:50 PM	:u: You may want to add back the option (probably non-race-specific) of being able to have nature-themed abilities such as wild empathy, an animal companion, camouflage, and the natural settings version of hide in plain sight? :g:
Lotus Crane 01-25-07, 08:54 AM	Hmm, so for some reason, my year-old threads have been getting more attention than my recent ones? Curious...
Flamewarrior 01-26-07, 04:23 AM	Crane: probably your older work gets more attention even today due to being composed of more sweeping alterations. Also, I'll leave my actual opinion for some later moment; for now, I'll just point what I consider to be a flaw in distracting strike description (I'm indeed talking about the PHBII, instead of ascribing the possible error to you): for applying sneak attack, someone has to personally flanking the target (targetting someone who just happens to be flanked doesn't work); so, a literal reading would seem to me as actually changing nothing (of course, I'd have to be retarded to fail to gather the intent, but it just isn't what's actually said in rules text). Of course, I may just be distracted ... P.S.: I know most people you listed has having particularly respectable opinions, but who's Polaris, and what has he/she done?
Lotus Crane 01-26-07, 07:58 AM	I'll just point what I consider to be a flaw in distracting strike description (I'm indeed talking about the PHBII, instead of ascribing the possible error to you): for applying sneak attack, someone has to personally flanking the target (targetting someone who just happens to be flanked doesn't work); so, a literal reading would seem to me as actually changing nothing. Hmm, I'll bold the especially relevant text, and after you re-examine it, tell me if you still think that's true. Distracting Attack (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged), that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of abjudicating your allies' attacks. For example, if your rogue ally attacked that enemy, not only would she gain a +2 bonus on her melee attack roll but she could also apply her sneak attack damage to a successful melee attack. It's not explicitly/redundantly stated here, but we have to assume that the phrase "abjudicating your allies' attacks" implies that any ally who attacks your distracted target, is treated as if he/she were "personally flanking" the target (with you, the ranger). The wording is slightly rushed and vague, but I do think that not only the intent, but the actual wording of the ability, supports the idea that the ability works the way it's supposed to work. However, I admit that this falls into the same grey area as Karmic Strike and Extra Spell, in that it could have really benefitted from an extra explicit/redundant sentence or two; perhaps even an entire paragraph. And just like Karmic Strike, Distracting Attack grants an ability which seemingly breaks the normal rules - Karmic Strike allows a special-case "attack of opportunity" which is resolved after the condition that triggers it, rather than before (which is how every other attack or action of opportunity in the game works); Distracting attack allows a special-case "flanked condition" which effectively means that rather than a distracted target "merely being flanked" (as you put it), all allies of the ranger count as if they are flanking the distracted target (thus legally allowing sneak attack to function). (Practically speaking, Distracting Attack is only useful to an archery style ranger, since for a melee ranger, there's no reason a rogue couldn't Tumble into an actual flanking position to qualify for full sneak attacks, instead of just a single sneak attack). Of course, I may just be distracted... Well, that arrow in your chest, and the shadowy figure with the dagger behind you, are pretty good indications that... ^_~ I know most people you listed has having particularly respectable opinions, but who's Polaris, and what has he/she done? Polaris is an older member who has not been terribly active as of late. When he actually shows up though, he's easily recognizable by the "con winner" type tag under his name, as well as his custom avatar. One of the things he did that earned my respect, concerned the Extra Spell argument. Originally, he felt that Extra Spell granted any spell as a spell known, not merely a spell from your own class spell list. (Some people still insist that this is the way Extra Spell is supposed to work, because they think it's supposed to be a way for ultra-specialists like the warmage to gain non-speciality spells, or for wizards to gain healing magic.) However, faced with the opposite argument, instead of doing what too many members do, which is to dismiss opposing opinions as uneducated idiocy, he actually considered the possibility that he might be mistaken, and decided to e-mail CustServ and research the FAQ's for guidance. That's an example of humility and maturity that I myself feel ashamed of for not always living up to. Anyway, the conclusion of that story is that all official responses to the question state that Extra Spell indeed only grants you additional spells known from your own class spell list, making it completely useless to ultra-specialists, and only marginally useful to wizards, who can use the feat to save the 100 gp per page cost of adding a spell to their spellbook, and/or to learn a new wizard spell without having access to another wizard's spellbook or scroll. Some stubborn individuals claim that CustServ is frequently wrong, or that the FAQ does not have the “authority” to decide RAW/RAI, but only errata does (personally, I think this is a shameless stall tactic akin to filerbustering, because the FAQ can decide RAW/RAI; errata is only used to change RAW/RAI). However, Polaris gracefully accepted the fact that his original position was wrong, and will now tell everybody the truth, even though the truth is probably inconvenient for him and many other members here.
Flamewarrior 01-27-07, 08:21 PM	Let me give you an example: three people corner their opponent. Two of them are in opposite sites (flanking). The third is a rogue. Besides their obvious lack of tactical prowess, one can remark about the latter's ability for sneak attacking. And, whoever may be the other two, the fact that they're "considered to be flanking" for any purpose (including "adjudicating your allies' attacks" doesn't do anything even for the +2 bonus, much less for sneak attack. Taken at face value, distracting attack brings nothing new to the situation. Of course, the intent is obvious; I bring this here only because of your attention to details; you, like me, are of the kind of people who actually care about those things. Also, it doesn't need redundancy. One thing, though: even if we accepted that allies are considered to be flanking, that'd open the target to sneak attack shots - although the example is of a melee attack, that's again not explictly required. So, the text we need seems to be (insert after the first comma) "all your allies who threaten that enemy are considered to be flanking it." (followed by the next sentence, as normal); if you deem that needed, say "you and your allies", and, if you actually would like the sneak-attacker being able to make a ranged sneak attack, remove "who threaten that enemy" and insert "that enemy" in "it"'s place. In any case, your intent will be clear and fully backed, without redundant text. Also, I expect not to have acted arrogant (by the way, I think I have improved uncanny dodge, as the shadowy figure seems to be dead by now, and that was beyond hilarious); by the way, I retract anything I said about TWF's strength, although I never tried to bite Wanzer's head off (I really have to standardize my usernames; I was called Bigode in your board). See you later. P.S.: thanks for the info on Polaris; the man does have things to be said for him. Also, take my insistance on the matter a sign of respect for your work; I think that, if corrected, you'll actually like it, based on your overall methods.
Lotus Crane 01-28-07, 12:04 AM	So, the text we need seems to be (insert after the first comma) "all your allies who threaten that enemy are considered to be flanking it." (followed by the next sentence, as normal); if you deem that needed, say "you and your allies", and, if you actually would like the sneak-attacker being able to make a ranged sneak attack, remove "who threaten that enemy" and insert "that enemy" in "it"'s place. Hmm, not a bad re-write at all. Point to you. I was called Bigode in your board. Ah, I remember that name. Sorry to have not only put Project Re-Balance on indefinate hold, but any maintenance of my site as well. ^_^;
Flamewarrior 01-29-07, 06:40 PM	Ah, I remember that name. Sorry to have not only put Project Re-Balance on indefinate hold, but any maintenance of my site as well. ^_^;Don't sweat it; you've made about the best job for the time ("for the time" since class balance changes as we near 4th edition). And I know what's it to have a life - look at my post rate; I'm now trying to come with my own class revisions, by the way. "... distracting attack provides exactly zero benefit to a ranger operating solo ..."Since many things intended for not working on oneself have this specifically stated, one could argue otherwise; as I said above it may be better to do the same here if that's your intent. "The entire point of distracting attack is that it allows a ranger to "flank" at range; if he has to close to melee and actually flank with a rogue ally so that she can pull of full sneak attacks, then the distracting attack ability isn't even making a difference."That's just a bit wrong; it could, in some situations, be put to good use with spring attack, which isn't a suboptimal choice if you plan to have bounding assault and superior combat style with TWF - you'd have your five best attacks during a spring attack, usuable even - depending on the situation - for making up to three oponents vulnerable to sneak attack (so that three of them could come from the same rogue); and, since there's little clarification about what's an "attack action" in 3.5, there're people who say it's simply a standard action used to attack; while I'm not sure about the validity of this, going with it makes the five spring-attacks into six. Finally, if you still think it's of little usefulness for an archer, there probably should be an alternative. Besides, all of this makes me think even more you should choose one of the rewrites, since I had to use multiple hypoteses above. "Don't you think it's sad, and perhaps underpowered, for 16th and 19th level unique class abilities to be overshadowed by a 1st level buff or a 8th level feat?"Did that question really refer to the current abilities? "It does not require an enemy to be flanked or flat-footed ..."Neither does skirmish; I say this because precision-based damage should be defined, saving repeating in every thing based off it. "You may want to add back the option (probably non-race-specific) of being able to have nature-themed abilities such as wild empathy, an animal companion, camouflage, and the natural settings version of hide in plain sight?"What would you think about making it another style selection, maybe between tracking, sneaking and animal-related abilities? Now, to summarize the changes: Loses: - wild empathy; - animal companion; - spells; - woodland stride; - camouflage. Gains: - better specialization progression; - second tracking method; - distracting attack; - uncanny dodge (delayed, just like evasion); - diehard; - superior combat style; - combat style mastery. Diehard is beyond bad, as could as well not even exist (im my opinion, of course). The last combat style abilities are better versions (greater reach) of weak spells' permanent effect. Distracting attack loses to animal companion so badly in some setups that it's fair (unlike what most think) to call the trade fair. The new favored enemy progression loses badly to another low-level spell when we talk kukri and scimitar (you know, critical hit autoconfiramtion is better than +10 damage when you threaten half of the time and have +4 damage); but it's better in the skillmonkey aspect that it could be called balanced - I'm not sure here. Also, I think people probably would like to see some direct combat benefit in favored environment (when using the old bonuses, extra speed was fine, but I have serious doubts about extra 50 ft., of course). Finally, uncanny dodge seems about as good as woodland stride and camouflage together. Theoretically, you just lose wild empathy completely, but as that's useless at high levels, no problem. With all of this, if anything, you may have given this ranger too little, and now I have written in my forehead how much I consider the Complete Warrior and Rokugan subtitution ideas ridiculous, I think.
Lotus Crane 03-10-07, 01:45 PM	Updates 2007-03-10 • Fixed some typographical and organizational errors, such as having the 11th-level ranger ability be called "Greater Combat Style" in the table but "Greater Combat Style Mastery" in the text (an oversight from the original copy-and-paste from the SRD). • Added clarifying language to the distracting attack and favored enemy/environment abilities. • Added a rewrite of Defensive Archery to the list of feats, and improved Superior Two-Weapon Fighting by incorporating part of the previous version of superior combat style: two-weapon combat. • Related to the previous item, superior combat style is now more standardized in that it grants Defensive Archery or Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (which include all the benefits of the previous versions); now only Combat Style Mastery grants benefits which can't be duplicated by other characters with feats. • Extended Precision and Precise Manyshot have been added to the list of scout bonus feats.
Kary Wanzer 03-11-07, 01:52 AM	:bump:
Lotus Crane 03-13-07, 03:58 AM	Is there really no more feedback on this to be had?
Lotus Crane 05-06-07, 10:15 AM	Updates 2007-05-06 • Added a minor speed increase benefit to favored environment, which previously may have been less useful than the standard favored enemy ability.
Flamewarrior 05-07-07, 04:04 PM	Ah, I see now. So I guess the old hardliners at WotC haven't changed much; it's really just the youngbloods who are more open to revising their work. Oh well, better than nothing I guess. What, this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=776548)? Yep. And we both know the distracting attack could use some rewriting ... also, in face of (for example) ToB, do you think the whole class couldn't stand to be a little better (not in terms of numbers, but of breadth of abilities)?
Lotus Crane 05-07-07, 05:22 PM	Well, I think Tempest Stormwind and Radical Taoist already have that angle covered, with the Falling Star school (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597) and sublime way variant ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077), respectively.
Flamewarrior 05-07-07, 05:28 PM	Quick note: while the discipline you linked is TS', the actual ranger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=738077) was made by Radical Taoist. Anyway, I knew both and wondered exactly if yours stacks up to the nowadays-considered-good warrior classes (which mostly come from ToB; hence the mention).
Lotus Crane 05-07-07, 06:16 PM	Correction made. Anyway, I would both my own ranger and the standard version, still stand up pretty well even in a post-ToB environment. The ranger's never really had the glaring weaknesses of the fighter or even paladin; his skills and spells give him plenty of options both in and out of combat, and he has just enough bonus feats to completely master a tree or three of his chosen style. It's been remarked by others that the crusader can effectively replace paladins, the swordsage can effectively replace monks, and the warblade can effectively replaced fighters. Allow me to remark that no martial adept was made to effectively replace rangers, because the 3.5 ranger does not need replacing, unlike those other classes. (Of course, variant rangers such as my own or Radical Taoist's, are amusing experiments, but strictly speaking, unnecessary from any sort of power balance viewpoint. Fighter fixes, in which they are given significant upgrades, are mechanically necessary; ranger variants are just for fun, and should not actually make the ranger any better than it already is.)
Flamewarrior 05-07-07, 06:34 PM	Well, I quite agree with the spellcaster ranger being up to snuff with the martial adept (although I think a full spellcaster level would've been nicer*). I'm not sure, though, if yours is in the same league as either. That may be just bias of mine, but I'm unsure whether a better bonus for favoring and some extra class features make up for spells or maneuvers. That probably needs actual play to be ascertained, anyway - I suppose you have seen it in action; what do you say? *: I'm not sure about how CL interacts with all the (not so) new ranger spells, so I'll admit it may be part of the current balance, as opposed to when it was released.
Lotus Crane 05-07-07, 11:06 PM	Well, I quite agree with the spellcaster ranger being up to snuff with the martial adept (although I think a full spellcaster level would've been nicer*). I'm not sure, though, if yours is in the same league as either. It's always hard to try and figure out how much to tone down abilities that are continuous/at will, as opposed to abilities at have limited duration/uses. That being said, while it's possible that the standard spellcasting ranger might be slightly more powerful than this variant (if only because of the newer Spell Compendium spells), this variant is certainly much more powerful than the worthless one found in Complete Warrior. I'm not sure about how CL interacts with all the (not so) new ranger spells, so I'll admit it may be part of the current balance, as opposed to when it was released. CL? Ranger caster level is still 1/2 class level (though Practiced Spellcaster can help bring it up to 14/20). But yes, the newer Spell Compendium spells are a major reason why rangers are overall superior to fighters, particularly in terms of archery.
Kary Wanzer 05-15-07, 09:02 PM	:w: Yeah, I may as well bump this one too. :g: