Post/Author/DateTime	Post
timaoh 12-08-06, 03:32 PM	Ok so this is my first attempt at this class and i know it still needs alot of work, i'm just running out of steam and thought i'd post it to get some help balancing and tweaking it. Boundary Warden Wardens are not secretive out of necessity, instead it seems that people would rather ignore the boundary that looms behind them. The boundary is a rift into the underworld itself and as a result many fearful and nightmarish apparations come forth from the boundary. The Warden's job is simple, protect the boundary from the foolish and inquisitive, and at the same time vanquish anything that comes through the boundary back to where it came from. Characteristics: The wardens abilities focus largely upon the use of weapons and mastery of specific tactics with these weapons. They have martial weapon proficiencies, tactical weapon uses to take advantage of opponents' weaknesses, the ability to track their foes, and the ability to see in near darkness. Alignment: Due to the requirements of their station most wardens are either Lawfull, or Chaotic, and are never Neutral or Evil aligned. Religion: religion has no place within the ranks of the Wardens but it isn't frowned upon or restricted. They may choose to worship which ever diety or ideals they wish as long as they donot interfere with the protection of the Boundary. Background: Wardens train exclusively within their own ranks and rarely reveal their methods to outsiders. Quite often a warden who has a family will raise his sons and daughters to follow in his footsteps making this class more akin to a profession passed down from generation to generation. However some who prove themselves may still join their ranks. Races: Wardens can be of any race although they tend to be more common among races with a lawfull bent. However as a direct result of the first wardens being Human, more than 90 percent of all wardens are human. Other Classes: Wardens get along with everyone and pride themselves on common sense. They follow precepts of protecting others and will sacrifice themselves willingly to save others even if they do not deserve it. They tend to be distrustful of most magic and relate it to evil especially if summoning is involved. Role: A Wardens primary role is that of a frontline fighter but their tactics and abilities make them good scouts and lookouts as well. GAME RULE INFORMATION Wardens have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength determines the power and accuracy of their melee attacks, Dexterity their accuracy with bows and crossbows, and Constitution aids their hit points. Charisma improves their diplomatic and intimidate skills and intelegence increases their skills and knoledge, and wisdom improves their will saves and some of their skills like sense motive. Alignment: Any non Neutral or Evil Hit Die: d10 Class Skills The warden's class skills are Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Profession (Warden), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope. Skill points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier The Boundary Warden Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Special 1st +1 +2 /+0/+0 Warden Training, Track 2nd +2 +3 /+0/+0 Two Weapon Fighting, Dark Vision 30 feet 3rd +3 +3 /+1/+1 Weapon Familiarity 4th +4 +4 /+1/+1 Paired Weapon Tactic, Friends at Hand 5th +5 +4 /+2/+1 Warden Training 6th +6 +5 /+2/+2 Swift Tracking, Dark Vision 60 feet 7th +7 +5 /+3/+2 Calling the Target 8th +8 +6 /+3/+2 Paired Weapon Tactic 9th +9 +6 /+4/+3 Warden Training 10th +10 +7 /+4/+3 Dark vision 90 feet 11th +11 +7 /+5/+3 Paired Weapon Tactic 12th +12 +8 /+5/+4 Warden Training 13th +13 +8 /+6/+4 14th +14 +9 /+6/+4 Paired Weapon Tactic 15th +15 +9 /+7/+5 Warden Training 16th +16 +10 /+7/+5 Dark Vision 120 17th +17 +10 /+8/+5 Paired Weapon Tactic 18th +18 +11 /+8/+6 Warden Training 19th +19 +11 /+9/+6 20th +20 +12 /+9/+6 Paired Weapon Tactic Class Features:All of the following are class features for the Warden. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Boundary Wardens are proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor but not sheilds including tower shield. Warden Training: At the noted levels the Warden becomes increasingly proficient with a new weapon type. (Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, etc.) Gaining the weapon focus feat for the chosen weapon type. Once a warden has mastered (gained focus) for all types he may then choose to increase the damage for a choosen weapon type as per the weapon specialization feat. Track: As the feat of the same name for rangers. Two Weapon Fighting: As the feat from the PHB. Dark Vision: At levels 2,6,10,16 the Warden gains an increased ability to see in the dark. This ability increase by 30 feet for each time it is gained. Weapon Familiarity: As a Warden becomes more and more fond of specific weapons, he may be inclined to name them ("Slashie" the Short Sword) Befreinding or naming a weapon grants a +1 enhancement upon the weapon. Paired Weapon Tactics: Wardens are increasingly familiar with a wider variety of weapons, resulting in a capacity to use them together in combinations few can imagine. Choose one feat from the corresponding list. *found in PHB2* Anvil of Thunder, Bear Fang, Crescent Moon, Hammers Edge, High Sword Low Axe, Lightening Mace, and Three Mountains. Friends at Hand: Any weapon that you are familiar with, and which you have named or befriended can be drawn as a free action. Which does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Swift Tracking: Same as ranger feat. Calling the Target: This is the Wardens ability to use his training and ability to focus upon his target and wait for the most opportune moment to strike. This ability increases the accuracy and damage of a ranged attack. The Warden must select a target and declare his intention to "Call the Target" The ranger must then make a DC:15 concentration check or the ability fails. If sucessfull the Warden spends his next turn studying his target and effectivly delays his attack for at least one round. When the Warden looses his arrow his attack and damage suffer a -5 penalty, however the attack rolls for the rounds spent studying his target and the current round are added, and damage is doubled. Reguardless of how long is spent before attacking the damage is never increased further. However for each additional round taken a new concentration check must be made with an incread Dc of +5, and a culmative -5 attack penalty for each round as well.
timaoh 12-09-06, 10:37 AM	:bump:
Night_Terror 12-09-06, 11:00 AM	Above the stats block, it says Tactitian. Probably from an older name. 3/4 base save progression? I haven't seen that before. What books has wizards published a class with a save progression like that? The ability 'Call the target' is confusing. I'm not entirely sure how it works. Do you forgo your attack for a round, make a concentration check, take -5 on your attack, add your base attack bonus to your attack bonus and double the damage?
timaoh 12-09-06, 11:27 AM	thanks, i fixed the typo. As far as i know no other class has a progression like that. I just thought it went well with the class and couldnt justify bringing it all the way down to a poor save. Asside from that, i will try and clarify what i was going for with Calling the Target. There is probably a better way of explaining it... Basically, the Warden takes extra time to prepare his attack and enters a mentally aware state in which he can percieve weaknesses better. The result being, that when he actually looses his arrow it's chance of missing is almost non-existant and the damage potential is greater. So if his attack bonus was say 15. He would roll his to hit normally and subtract 5. resulting in 10+die roll, however he then also applies the attack value from his second round and adds that, 10+die roll, the total being the two rolls and 20. Making it incredibly unlikely he will miss, and as an added affect he also deals double damage with a -5 penalty per round. So Damage x 2 - (5)rounds. This all makes sense to me but im in my own head... I hope this helps clarify things.
benstundze 12-09-06, 05:33 PM	Ok so this is my first attempt at this class and i know it still needs alot of work, i'm just running out of steam and thought i'd post it to get some help balancing and tweaking it. ok first this looks a tad underpowerd and is this from sword of truth? Boundary Warden Wardens are not secretive out of necessity, instead it seems that people would rather ignore the boundary that looms behind them. The boundary is a rift into the underworld itself and as a result many fearful and nightmarish apparations come forth from the boundary. The Warden's job is simple, protect the boundary from the foolish and inquisitive, and at the same time vanquish anything that comes through the boundary back to where it came from. Characteristics: The wardens abilities focus largely upon the use of weapons and mastery of specific tactics with these weapons. They have martial weapon proficiencies, tactical weapon uses to take advantage of opponents' weaknesses, the ability to track their foes, and the ability to see in near darkness. Alignment: Due to the requirements of their station most wardens are either Lawfull, or Chaotic, and are never Neutral or Evil aligned. Religion: religion has no place within the ranks of the Wardens but it isn't frowned upon or restricted. They may choose to worship which ever diety or ideals they wish as long as they donot interfere with the protection of the Boundary. Background: Wardens train exclusively within their own ranks and rarely reveal their methods to outsiders. Quite often a warden who has a family will raise his sons and daughters to follow in his footsteps making this class more akin to a profession passed down from generation to generation. However some who prove themselves may still join their ranks. Races: Wardens can be of any race although they tend to be more common among races with a lawfull bent. However as a direct result of the first wardens being Human, more than 90 percent of all wardens are human. Other Classes: Wardens get along with everyone and pride themselves on common sense. They follow precepts of protecting others and will sacrifice themselves willingly to save others even if they do not deserve it. They tend to be distrustful of most magic and relate it to evil especially if summoning is involved. Role: A Wardens primary role is that of a frontline fighter but their tactics and abilities make them good scouts and lookouts as well. GAME RULE INFORMATIONWardens have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength determines the power and accuracy of their melee attacks, Dexterity their accuracy with bows and crossbows, and Constitution aids their hit points. Charisma improves their diplomatic and intimidate skills and intelegence increases their skills and knoledge, and wisdom improves their will saves and some of their skills like sense motive. bold this Alignment: Any non Neutral or Evil bold this Hit Die: d10 bold this Class Skills The warden's class skills are Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Profession (Warden), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope. Skill points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier The Boundary Warden Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Special 1st +1 +2 /+0/+0 Warden Training, Track 2nd +2 +3 /+0/+0 Two Weapon Fighting, Dark Vision 30 feet 3rd +3 +3 /+1/+1 Weapon Familiarity 4th +4 +4 /+1/+1 Paired Weapon Tactic, Friends at Hand 5th +5 +4 /+2/+1 Warden Training 6th +6 +5 /+2/+2 Swift Tracking, Dark Vision 60 feet 7th +7 +5 /+3/+2 Calling the Target 8th +8 +6 /+3/+2 Paired Weapon Tactic 9th +9 +6 /+4/+3 Warden Training 10th +10 +7 /+4/+3 Dark vision 90 feet 11th +11 +7 /+5/+3 Paired Weapon Tactic 12th +12 +8 /+5/+4 Warden Training 13th +13 +8 /+6/+4 14th +14 +9 /+6/+4 Paired Weapon Tactic 15th +15 +9 /+7/+5 Warden Training 16th +16 +10 /+7/+5 Dark Vision 120 17th +17 +10 /+8/+5 Paired Weapon Tactic 18th +18 +11 /+8/+6 Warden Training 19th +19 +11 /+9/+6 20th +20 +12 /+9/+6 Paired Weapon Tactic you are missing " calling the target on here" and you are a bit top heavy move some stuff to higher lvls Class Features:All of the following are class features for the Warden. underline here Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Boundary Wardens are proficient with all simple and martial weapons as well as all armor but not sheilds including tower shield. id make it so thay cant use heavy armor and cant use some abilitys like "calling the target" unless you are using light armor Warden Training: At the noted levels the Warden becomes increasingly proficient with a new weapon type. (Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, etc.) Gaining the weapon focus feat for the chosen weapon type. Once a warden has mastered (gained focus) for all types he may then choose to increase the damage for a choosen weapon type as per the weapon specialization feat. Track: As the feat of the same name for rangers. Two Weapon Fighting: As the feat from the PHB. bold this Dark Vision: At levels 2,6,10,16 the Warden gains an increased ability to see in the dark. This ability increase by 30 feet for each time it is gained. i think you should make it so they gain darkvision (and so they rapid changes of light dont blind you) at lvl 20 Weapon Familiarity: As a Warden becomes more and more fond of specific weapons, he may be inclined to name them ("Slashie" the Short Sword) Befreinding or naming a weapon grants a +1 enhancement upon the weapon. good but make this lvl 6 Paired Weapon Tactics: Wardens are increasingly familiar with a wider variety of weapons, resulting in a capacity to use them together in combinations few can imagine. Choose one feat from the corresponding list. Anvil of Thunder, Bear Fang, Crescent Moon, Hammers Edge, High Sword Low Axe, Lightening Mace, and Three Mountains. not quite clear spell this out some more Friends at Hand: Any weapon that you are familiar with, and which you have named or befriended can be drawn as a free action. Which does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Swift Tracking: Same as ranger feat. Calling the Target: This is the Wardens ability to use his training and ability to focus upon his target and wait for the most opportune moment to strike. This ability increases the accuracy and damage of a ranged attack. The Warden must select a target and declare his intention to "Call the Target" The ranger must then make a DC:15 concentration check or the ability fails. lower this DC to 10 im thinking If sucessfull the Warden spends his next turn studying his target and effectivly delays his attack for at least one round. When the Warden looses his arrow his attack and damage suffer a -5 penalty, why -5? however the attack rolls for the rounds spent studying his target and the current round are added, and damage is doubled. Reguardless of how long is spent before attacking the damage is never increased further. you should make this a natural crit However for each additional round taken a new concentration check must be made with an incread Dc of +5, and a culmative -5 attack penalty for each round as well. why, if anything it should go lower good class ben
timaoh 12-09-06, 11:29 PM	Ok. im a little confused because you contradict yourself a little by saying it is underpowered at first then saying it is top heavy. So if you could clarify id appreciate it. And yes it is based off of the sword of truth series for inspiration but i did not intend it to be a literal duplication of the class from the book. Call the target is given at level 7. Did i missname it or did you just miss it? Could you provide me with a reason to restrict the armor for this class? I felt it would benefit the class to choose its armor based on ability rather than limiting it for no reason. The ability to "call the target" is not dependant upon armor, and will be limited by a max dexterity limit if the armor has one as it is. Note: This attack is ranged only. I'll consider the darkvision ability to not be blinded by light changes. Could you give me a flavor reason behind this? As i cannot readily think of a reason why they shouldgain this ability. Weapon Familiarity may be slightly overpowered for third level, i will look into rewording it or changing it to be more level appropriate. Paired weapon tactics: It's very straight forward. You get to choose a feat from the list. All the feats are from the PHB2, and apply to bonuses gained when weilding two particular weapons. Axe & Dagger, Rapier & Dagger, Maces, etc. The DC: 15 concentration check for calling the target was set very high due to the very powerful nature of the ability. It works on everything even undead because it does not rely upon critical damage. It guarantees double damage or from two attacks basically and greatly reduces the liklihood of the attack missing the target. I will be playtesting the class shortly and i may change the dc to a lower number if it is necessary. The reason for increasing the concentration check was that it gets harder to concentrate, or maintain concentration the more time that is spent doing so. Think of the ability as similar to the true strike spell. Except it also adds to damage, and may be used an unlimited number of times. Therefore i felt it needed to be limited, and decided concentration, and a penalty were likely a good place to start. I had considered reducing the armor or movement, of the warden for rounds during and subsequent the use of the ability but felt it was not strong enough to warrent such a large detrement.
benstundze 12-10-06, 02:42 PM	Ok. im a little confused because you contradict yourself a little by saying it is underpowered at first then saying it is top heavy. So if you could clarify id appreciate it. top heavy means you have to many abilitys in the first 10 lvls and not the last ten lvls look at the chart there is only repeat abilitys there And yes it is based off of the sword of truth series for inspiration but i did not intend it to be a literal duplication of the class from the book. of corse because they whouldnt have call the target:) Call the target is given at level 7. Did i missname it or did you just miss it? thats to low and its to strict it should be like a lvl 15 itom Could you provide me with a reason to restrict the armor for this class? I felt it would benefit the class to choose its armor based on ability rather than limiting it for no reason. The ability to "call the target" is not dependant upon armor, and will be limited by a max dexterity limit if the armor has one as it is. Note: This attack is ranged only. because call the target is dextarity requierd you need to move and it dosent fit the class fluff to use full plate and call the target I'll consider the darkvision ability to not be blinded by light changes. Could you give me a flavor reason behind this? As i cannot readily think of a reason why they shouldgain this ability. it gos with dark vision and is the bane of dark vision....you need it Weapon Familiarity may be slightly overpowered for third level, i will look into rewording it or changing it to be more level appropriate. kk Paired weapon tactics: It's very straight forward. You get to choose a feat from the list. All the feats are from the PHB2, and apply to bonuses gained when weilding two particular weapons. Axe & Dagger, Rapier & Dagger, Maces, etc. oh thats why i dident under stand (you might whont to tell there feats and from Players Hand book 2) i dont have that book The DC: 15 concentration check for calling the target was set very high due to the very powerful nature of the ability. hense why it should be lvl 15 It works on everything even undead because it does not rely upon critical damage. just a though thats cool It guarantees double damage or from two attacks basically and greatly reduces the liklihood of the attack missing the target. ya thats not as powerfull as you think(you might whont to add that it can hit x3 the normal range of the weapon) I will be playtesting the class shortly and i may change the dc to a lower number if it is necessary. cool dont you love playtesting The reason for increasing the concentration check was that it gets harder to concentrate, or maintain concentration the more time that is spent doing so. no it should get eseyer that makes no sens (sacrificing a turn for no reasen) Think of the ability as similar to the true strike spell. Except it also adds to damage, and may be used an unlimited number of times. Therefore i felt it needed to be limited, and decided concentration, and a penalty were likely a good place to start. no its fine with out those extream negitive (LVL 15 tho) I had considered reducing the armor or movement, of the warden for rounds during and subsequent the use of the ability but felt it was not strong enough to warrent such a large detrement. i think lessing the movement is in order (because you have to consentrate lol) no really resrtict movement ben
timaoh 12-10-06, 05:40 PM	I can see why you might say that about repeat abilities, however i dont really see it as being a problem. Do you have any suggestions for abilities i might add, for flavour without increasing the power of the class dramatically? It never states a dependancy upon dexterity. You could use it with a throwing weapon, or without dexterity. However i am thinking about removing heavy armor, would there be a way that i could limit certain types of heavy armor? Could i just give proficiency with certain heavy armors, or would that be too confusing? The ability was never meant to be powerful. It is intended for those times when a high AC is preventing the party from dealing consistant damage, or when range for ranged attacks is an issue. You say the ability is too powerful, then you say it isnt as powerful as i think, and then you again say it should be a lvl 15 ability. Why should the ability be placed at level 15 if it is not very powerful? Perhaps if the penalty was lessened at lvl 15 or removed completely. Thanks for your input, even if it seems like i dont agree it helps to talk this stuff through, and im already thinking further about some of the stuff you have suggested.
Talen Lee 12-10-06, 06:13 PM	Haven't read the class, have no useful input in this regard. But I will say this much; the name of the class speaks to me of a Prestige Class. It's a Title, rather than a descriptor. Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Rogue - these are all simple and utilitarian terms. Boundary Warden? Not so much so.
benstundze 12-10-06, 09:51 PM	I can see why you might say that about repeat abilities, however i dont really see it as being a problem. Do you have any suggestions for abilities i might add, for flavour without increasing the power of the class dramatically? It never states a dependancy upon dexterity. its the natiur of the ability You could use it with a throwing weapon, or without dexterity. However i am thinking about removing heavy armor, would there be a way that i could limit certain types of heavy armor? Could i just give proficiency with certain heavy armors, or would that be too confusing? to confusing The ability was never meant to be powerful. It is intended for those times when a high AC is preventing the party from dealing consistant damage, or when range for ranged attacks is an issue. well its needlessly complex and dosent diserve to be at so low a lvl, also i think this class needs quick draw You say the ability is too powerful, then you say it isnt as powerful as i think, and then you again say it should be a lvl 15 ability. Why should the ability be placed at level 15 if it is not very powerful? im sayong move it to lvl 15 and remove those things and it is balenced Perhaps if the penalty was lessened at lvl 15 or removed completely. no..... Thanks for your input, even if it seems like i dont agree it helps to talk this stuff through, and im already thinking further about some of the stuff you have suggested. np sorry for the spelling just ignore it ben
enygmatic_me 12-10-06, 10:05 PM	I have to agree with Talen Lee, this seems like it should be a 10 level PrC instead of a base class. To do this you might want to drop (or modify) the class features that are Ranger-esque. Give them the rest of the abilities you have worked on and then try to balance from there.
timaoh 12-11-06, 08:58 AM	perhaps i should put something together as a prc then. I have my own reasons for making this a base class, however if it might be more useful to others i can certainly put something together. Perhaps it is a bit complex but i cant think of a way to simplify it, other than to remove the complex parts at the level you indicate. The class does gain quick draw. So if the class was simply refered to as "Warden" would that entitle it to be a base class? Im going to have to dissagree about dexterity being the key attribute it is important but i would think strength would be equally important if not more so for this build. It is nowhere near as efficient as a 2h build but it still has potential for high damage output. The reason i dont want to move everything around and change all the levels of alot of the abilities is because it took me quite some time to get things worked out the way they are. However i might just have to give it a try and see if i can come up with something better than whats already there. Look for a revised posting of the class, possibly with a prc option.
benstundze 01-21-07, 09:45 PM	you ever repost this?