A New Base Class: The Ascendant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
Calibron

06-15-05, 08:41 PM		Name-Ascedant
Description-Usually of Noble birth, an Ascendant is a natural leader. A force to be reckoned with on their own, an Ascendant truly shines when commanding or assisting others.
BAB-As Cleric
Skill Points at 1st Level-(6+Int modifier)*4
Skill Points-6+Int Modifier
Saves: Fortitude-Poor, Reflex-Good, Will-Good
Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple Weapons, All One-Handed(not Light) Martial Weapons, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Shortbows, Composite Shortbows, Lances.

Class Features:

Level 1 Aura of Competence(Ex)-When using Aid Another the Ascendant adds half their Charisma modifier to the bonus granted.

Level 3 Commanding Presence(Ex)-When first meeting the Ascendant all creatures with Attitudes better than Hostile are automatically bumped up one Attitude level.

Level 4 Inspiration(Ex)-When an Ascendant makes a critical strike, disarms or trips more than one opponent in a single round, disarms or trips an enemy with Hit Dice equal to his level or higher, or renders an enemy Helpless or dead, or anything else suitably inspiring(DM discretion) all allies with compatible(not opposite) alignment, with intelligence, wisdom and charisma scores, and capable of witnessing the action get a +1 morale bonus to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls. The bonus lasts for one minute+(one round/level) or until the Ascendant is disarmed, tripped, pinned, rendered Helpless, knocked off of a mount, killed, or anything else suitably humiliating(DM discretion), whatever comes first.

Level 6 Greater Aura of Competence(Ex)-When using Aid Another the Ascendant adds their full Charisma modifier to the bonus.

Level 6 Force of Personality(Ex)-The Ascendant adds one half of their Charisma modifier to their saves.

Level 7 Flourish(Su)-After completing an action that activates (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration an Ascendant may choose to Flourish. Flourishing provokes attacks of opportunity. If an Ascendant is struck by an AoO the flourish has no effect. If the Ascendant is not hit by an AoO while Flourishing he can activate one spell effect of third level or lower once as a free action anytime this (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration is active. No spells that require a material component costing more than one gp or that have an XP cost may have their effects used. The Ascendant's effective caster level for these effects is equal to his Ascendant levels.

Level 8 Cold Smile(Ex)-When the Ascendant makes a save that negates damage or an effect that would have killed them they can make a Cold Smile as a free action. All enemies that know of the aforementioned effect and are capable of seeing the Ascendant must make a Will save DC 2*Ascendant’s Charisma modifier or become Shaken. An enemy who fails the save by 4 points or more instead becomes Frightened. Enemies who are immune to mind effects are not immune to this, but enemies who are immune to fear effects are.

Level 9 Noble Inspiration(Ex)-The morale bonus now equals one half of the Ascendant’s Charisma modifier. All enemies with intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores, not of identical alignment, and capable of witnessing the action make a Will Save DC 12+Ascendant’s Charisma modifier or suffer a -1 morale penalty to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls. If the bonus does not last the full minute all enemies not of identical alignment that have intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores get a +1 morale bonus to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls.

Level 10 Overwhelming Confidence(Ex)-The Ascendant is now immune to fear effects.

Level 13 Elaborate Flourish(Su)-After completing an action that activates (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration an Ascendant may choose to Flourish. Flourishing provokes attacks of opportunity and the Ascendant is denied his Dexterity Bonus to AC while executing an Elaborate Flourish. If an Ascendant is struck by an AoO the flourish has no effect. If the Ascendant is not hit by an AoO while Flourishing he can activate one spell effect of 4th to 6th level once as a free action anytime this (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration is active. Instead the Ascendant can choose three spell effects of 3rd level or lower, the same effect can be chosen more than once, and activate those at any time the current Inspiration is in affect.(Note that Elaborate Flourish does not replace Flourish)

Level 15 Heroic Inspiration(Ex)-The morale bonus now equals the Ascendant’s Charisma modifier. The Will save DC is now 18+Ascendant’s Charisma modifier and failing it now incurs a morale penalty equal to half the Acsendant's Charisma modifier. The enemy bonus gotten from the effect being cut short now equals one half of the Ascendant’s charisma modifier.

Level 16 Army Building(Ex)-Any Followers an Ascendant has gained will gain one level per month of dedicated training at the Ascendant’s stronghold, as long as the Ascendant is present and expends the gold necessary to feed and outfit his Followers. They can be trained up to a maximum of ¾ the Character’s Ascendant levels. Army Building without the local government’s consent could be very hazardous to your health.

Level 18 Political/Criminal Influence(Ex)-Depending on the Ascendant’s alignment and previous actions they have become famous/infamous and gained strong influence with either the powers that be, or the criminal element. The Ascendant that has gained Political influence gets +10 to any Charisma based checks when dealing with Nobles/Government officials and +5 on all Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) checks. The Ascendant that has gained Criminal influence gets +10 to any Charisma based checks when dealing with members of organized crime, including Thieves'/Assassins' Guild members, and +5 to all Knowledge(Local) checks. The faction whom the Ascendant has gained influence with will, as a whole, be unlikely to move against him and likely to aid him.

Bonus Feats-Every fifth level an Ascendant can take one of the following Bonus Feats.

Alertness
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Far Shot
Great Fortitude
Improved Critical
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Initiative
Improved Precise Shot
Improved Trip
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mobility
Mounted Archery
Mounted Combat
Negotiator
Persuasive
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Ride-By Attack
Self Sufficient
Shot On The Run
Skill Focus
Spirited Charge
Spring Attack
Two-Weapon Defence
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus

Class Skills-

Bluff
Concentrate
Desipher Script
Diplomacy
Forgery
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge(geography)
Knowledge(history)
Knowledge(local)
Knowledge(nature)
Knowledge(nobility and royalty)
Knowledge(religion)
Listen
Ride
Sense Motive
Speak Language
Spot
Use Magic Device
Calibron

06-16-05, 05:43 PM		bump
Calibron

06-18-05, 06:44 PM		C'mon people, throw me a friggin' bone; I'm dyin' out here!
Encard

06-18-05, 09:27 PM		All right, first thing - you NEED some flavor text. Right now you just have a collection of abilities that imply certain things about the class. Even if it's only a couple of brief paragraphs, there should be something describing such a character's general role in the world, whether they're tied into any specific organization(s), how they tend to be viewed, etc.

The list of class skills should, to keep with standard formatting (and thus ease of use) also be condensed and located with the skill point/level info. it would also be nice to have a table with the BAB/saves/abilities, but that's no really essential.

Now, my general take on this class: it's an idea that's workable, if not totally original (it reminds me of a few other classes, but that's not a huge problem in and of itself) - however, the mechanics you used need a lot of work. They're too complex, too iffy in places, and far too abusable. At the moment, I'm envisioning a large spiked chain trip-monkey build with a good Cha score - lump in a good AC if you feel the need and boom, your allies get great bonuses and you can cast any spell you want up to 6th level as a free action, with ease, and that's not even the character's most powerful ability.

Now, onward!


BAB-As Cleric
Skill Points at 1st Level-(6+Int modifier)*4
Skill Points-6+Int Modifier
Saves: Fortitude-Poor, Reflex-Good, Will-Good
Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple Weapons, All One-Handed(not Light) Martial Weapons, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Shortbows, Composite Shortbows, Lances.
I see no reason for the skill points to be so high - this class seems to be a leader of armies, not something for characters that want to do everything themselves.

Level 1 Aura of Competence(Ex)-When using Aid Another the Ascendant adds half their Charisma modifier to the bonus granted.This is fine - it can be nice in some situations, but certainly not overpowered.

Level 3 Commanding Presence(Ex)-When first meeting the Ascendant all creatures with Attitudes better than Hostile are automatically bumped up one Attitude level.
This shouldn't be automatic. I suggest adding a Will save - a DC of 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Charisma modifier would be the standard way to go about it. Another option would be to use an opposed check, something like 1d20 + the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifer vs. 1d20 + the target's character level/hit dice + the target's Wis modifier.

Level 4 Inspiration(Ex)-When an Ascendant makes a critical strike, disarms or trips more than one opponent in a single round, disarms or trips an enemy with Hit Dice equal to his level or higher, or renders an enemy Helpless or dead, or anything else suitably inspiring(DM discretion) all allies with compatible(not opposite) alignment, with intelligence, wisdom and charisma scores, and capable of witnessing the action get a +1 morale bonus to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls. The bonus lasts for one minute+(one round/level) or until the Ascendant is disarmed, tripped, pinned, rendered Helpless, knocked off of a mount, killed, or anything else suitably humiliating(DM discretion), whatever comes first.
This is a problem. The bonus is fine, but three main things catch my eye:

The conditions to activate it. You've listed a number of these and then added in DM's discretion. It's generally best to specify these sorts of things out rather than simply saying they'll be applied at the DM's discretion. The conditions you did specify, however, seem both a bit too extensive.
The restrictions on who is affected. The standard for something like this would be requiring an Int score of 3 or better; there's no real need to specify having a Wis or Cha score. Also, you're unclear about what alignments qualify, and I'm not sure why alignment is even an issue here.
The duration. With the conditions given, this effect will almost certainly stay up all the time.

My suggested revision:
Inspiration (Ex): When an Ascendant scores a critical hit, all allies who witness the event and have an Intelligence socre of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.

If you want to really allow for a heroic deeds inspiring his followers sort of flavor, allowing DM's discretion, something like this might be better:

Inspiration (Ex): At his option, before undertaking an action, an Ascendant may call an action, stating that it will succeed. Such an action must be difficult and carry a significant risk of failure - whether a given action qualifies is up to the DM. If the character succeeds, all allies that witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant. If the action fails, however, all enemies that witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.

In the second case, I recommend you limit it to either once per combat or a certain number of uses per day - perhaps 3 + the Ascendant's Cha mod uses per day, or simply up to the Ascendant's class level uses per day. At the very least it should be limited to once per round.

Level 6 Greater Aura of Competence(Ex)-When using Aid Another the Ascendant adds their full Charisma modifier to the bonus.
Nice ability, but probably fine.

Level 6 Force of Personality(Ex)-The Ascendant adds one half of their Charisma modifier to their saves.
A low-end version of Divine Grace - not a problem.

Level 7 Flourish(Su)-After completing an action that activates (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration an Ascendant may choose to Flourish. Flourishing provokes attacks of opportunity. If an Ascendant is struck by an AoO the flourish has no effect. If the Ascendant is not hit by an AoO while Flourishing he can activate one spell effect of third level or lower once as a free action anytime this (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration is active. No spells that require a material component costing more than one gp or that have an XP cost may have their effects used. The Ascendant's effective caster level for these effects is equal to his Ascendant levels.
This ability is confusing and potentially overpowered. First, what spells are eligible? Can he cast any spell of those levels from any class's spell list, or does it have to be from a given class? Second, what happens if he triggers Inspiration a second time (gets another critical hit, whatever)? The morale bonuses wouldn't stack, but would he be able to get another spell? If the answer is no, then this ability is probably fine, though I'd suggest limiting the spells either to the Wizard or the Bard list. It should probably also prohibit the use of this ability in conjunction with damage-dealing spells.

oh, and is the spell's caster level the character's class level, or...?

Level 8 Cold Smile(Ex)-When the Ascendant makes a save that negates damage or an effect that would have killed them they can make a Cold Smile as a free action. All enemies that know of the aforementioned effect and are capable of seeing the Ascendant must make a Will save DC 2*Ascendant’s Charisma modifier or become Shaken. An enemy who fails the save by 4 points or more instead becomes Frightened. Enemies who are immune to mind effects are not immune to this, but enemies who are immune to fear effects are.
Free actions can still only be made on your turn - it sounds like you're thinking of him making it as an immediate action, or simply something that doesn't take an action. What counts as a save that negates damage, though? A Ref save for half damage (which negates half a spell's damage)? A save that negates all damage, regardless of what save and how it does so?

Also, those immune to mind-affecting effects should be immune to this, since fear is a smaller subcatagory of mind-affecting effects.

My suggestions, based on a feat from the Draconomicon:
Cold Smile (Ex): When the Ascendant succeeds at a saving throw that reduces or totally negates damage from a spell or attack, all opponents within 30 ft. must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifier) or become Shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d6 + your Cha modifier. Opponents who succeed at their save are immune to the effect of your cold smile for 24 hours. Only creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher are affected.

Level 9 Noble Inspiration(Ex)-The morale bonus now equals one half of the Ascendant’s Charisma modifier. All enemies with intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores, not of identical alignment, and capable of witnessing the action make a Will Save DC 12+Ascendant’s Charisma modifier or suffer a -1 morale penalty to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls. If the bonus does not last the full minute all enemies not of identical alignment that have intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores get a +1 morale bonus to Saves, AC, and Attack rolls.
This suffers from much the same problem as Inspiration, and also has a non-standard save DC... The bonus is very nice but all in all probably fine, but I would suggest changing the second part of this. Something more like so, perhaps:
When the Ascendant successfully uses his Inspiration ability, all opponents who witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifier) or take a -1 morale penalty to saving throws, attack rolls, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.

Level 10 Overwhelming Confidence(Ex)-The Ascendant is now immune to fear effects.
Looks fine.

Level 13 Elaborate Flourish(Su)-After completing an action that activates (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration an Ascendant may choose to Flourish. Flourishing provokes attacks of opportunity and the Ascendant is denied his Dexterity Bonus to AC while executing an Elaborate Flourish. If an Ascendant is struck by an AoO the flourish has no effect. If the Ascendant is not hit by an AoO while Flourishing he can activate one spell effect of 4th to 6th level once as a free action anytime this (Noble/Heroic)Inspiration is active. Instead the Ascendant can choose three spell effects of 3rd level or lower, the same effect can be chosen more than once, and activate those at any time the current Inspiration is in affect.(Note that Elaborate Flourish does not replace Flourish)
Same issues as Flourish, but more so due to the higher caster level. In any case, I recommend removing the three lower level spells option.

Level 15 Heroic Inspiration(Ex)-The morale bonus now equals the Ascendant’s Charisma modifier. The Will save DC is now 18+Ascendant’s Charisma modifier and failing it now incurs a morale penalty equal to half the Acsendant's Charisma modifier. The enemy bonus gotten from the effect being cut short now equals one half of the Ascendant’s charisma modifier.
Very nice ability, but hopefully not too overboard if his other stuff gets fixed up - it might be worth taking a second look at this, though, because especially in the context of an army unit it's extremely good.

Level 16 Army Building(Ex)-Any Followers an Ascendant has gained will gain one level per month of dedicated training at the Ascendant’s stronghold, as long as the Ascendant is present and expends the gold necessary to feed and outfit his Followers. They can be trained up to a maximum of ¾ the Character’s Ascendant levels. Army Building without the local government’s consent could be very hazardous to your health.
Far, far, FAR too powerful. By 20th level, this gives the character control of a small army of 15th level characters, when the standard soldier is a probably level 1 warrior. That's more powerful than just about anything else you could give him.

I see two main options here. One is to give this character Leadership as a bonus feat at tenth level and change this ability to a much smaller bonus that steadily inceases as the character levels up - perhaps by 20th level, all his followers are a few levels higher than normal. The other option is to make the character better at actual army building, rather than to give him a better army - again, give him Leadership as a bonus feat at 10th level, but instead of improving his followers simply give him more than the usual amount, perhaps twice as many at 15th level and three times as many at 20th level.

Level 18 Political/Criminal Influence(Ex)-Depending on the Ascendant’s alignment and previous actions they have become famous/infamous and gained strong influence with either the powers that be, or the criminal element. The Ascendant that has gained Political influence gets +10 to any Charisma based checks when dealing with Nobles/Government officials and +5 on all Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) checks. The Ascendant that has gained Criminal influence gets +10 to any Charisma based checks when dealing with members of organized crime, including Thieves'/Assassins' Guild members, and +5 to all Knowledge(Local) checks. The faction whom the Ascendant has gained influence with will, as a whole, be unlikely to move against him and likely to aid him.
I suggest just letting the character choose one of the two. Also, you should specify what you mean by faction (politicians vs. criminals? A specific group among those?), and possible add to the vague ending that anyone from that faction will by default start with an attitude of Neutral or better toward the character unless the character has previously done something to lower that attitude.

Bonus Feats-Every fifth level an Ascendant can take one of the following Bonus Feats.

Alertness
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Far Shot
Great Fortitude
Improved Critical
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Initiative
Improved Precise Shot
Improved Trip
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mobility
Mounted Archery
Mounted Combat
Negotiator
Persuasive
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Ride-By Attack
Self Sufficient
Shot On The Run
Skill Focus
Spirited Charge
Spring Attack
Two-Weapon Defence
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Looks pretty normal.

Class Skills-

Bluff
Concentrate
Desipher Script
Diplomacy
Forgery
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge(geography)
Knowledge(history)
Knowledge(local)
Knowledge(nature)
Knowledge(nobility and royalty)
Knowledge(religion)
Listen
Ride
Sense Motive
Speak Language
Spot
Use Magic Device
Why Spot, Listen, and Use Magic Device? The rest I can see, but I'm not sure I understand the logic behind including those three.


Anyway, I hope those comments help - I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
Calibron

06-18-05, 11:43 PM		All right, first thing - you NEED some flavor text. Right now you just have a collection of abilities that imply certain things about the class. Even if it's only a couple of brief paragraphs, there should be something describing such a character's general role in the world, whether they're tied into any specific organization(s), how they tend to be viewed, etc.
Okay, I'll do that.

The list of class skills should, to keep with standard formatting (and thus ease of use) also be condensed and located with the skill point/level info. it would also be nice to have a table with the BAB/saves/abilities, but that's no really essential.
I don't know how to make tables with UBB code.

They're too complex
Heh, you should have seen it before I refined it.

At the moment, I'm envisioning a large spiked chain trip-monkey build with a good Cha score
It'd be easier(and more effective) to give a Bard EWP(spiked chain).

you can cast any spell you want up to 6th level as a free action
If you can achieve Inspiration and avoid any number of AoOs while affectively flat-footed.

with ease
Well I suppose it would be easy if you're fighting hordes of weak enemies and attack from range.

I see no reason for the skill points to be so high - this class seems to be a leader of armies, not something for characters that want to do everything themselves.
Yes I see why flavor text is so important...An Ascendant needs to deal with running a kingdom/empire/city/whatever and hold his own in a political forum, and lead their army. If it is unbalancing I suppose it could be lowered to a +4, but this is probably the last thing that would need to be changed.

This shouldn't be automatic. I suggest adding a Will save - a DC of 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Charisma modifier would be the standard way to go about it. Another option would be to use an opposed check, something like 1d20 + the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifer vs. 1d20 + the target's character level/hit dice + the target's Wis modifier.
And you were complaining about over complexity ;p. But I like this. I will change it to this formula.

1. The conditions to activate it. You've listed a number of these and then added in DM's discretion. It's generally best to specify these sorts of things out rather than simply saying they'll be applied at the DM's discretion. The conditions you did specify, however, seem both a bit too extensive.
Perhaps instead of "more than one" and "Hit Dice equal to his level or higher" it should be enemies whose total ECL are equal to his level or higher. Yes I think that's better. Thanks to you I'm fleshing this class out far better then before.

2. The restrictions on who is affected. The standard for something like this would be requiring an Int score of 3 or better; there's no real need to specify having a Wis or Cha score. Also, you're unclear about what alignments qualify, and I'm not sure why alignment is even an issue here.
Yes...I suppose. Yeah okay.

Inspiration (Ex): When an Ascendant scores a critical hit, all allies who witness the event and have an Intelligence socre of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.
Far too restricted IMO, I'll stick with my revised rule. If you, or anyone else, want to use this class you can, of course, use your proposal instead.

Inspiration (Ex): At his option, before undertaking an action, an Ascendant may call an action, stating that it will succeed. Such an action must be difficult and carry a significant risk of failure - whether a given action qualifies is up to the DM. If the character succeeds, all allies that witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant. If the action fails, however, all enemies that witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 receive a +1 morale bonus to their saving throws, attack bonus, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.
Mechanically that is good, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense in the context of the game world. Enemies don't normally get morale boosts just because one of their enemies fails a trip attempt.

In the second case, I recommend you limit it to either once per combat or a certain number of uses per day - perhaps 3 + the Ascendant's Cha mod uses per day, or simply up to the Ascendant's class level uses per day.
Okay, I'll consider it.

At the very least it should be limited to once per round.
I guess I should have mentioned that they overlap, not stack. If they did stack this would be incredibly broken. Doing more than one per round would be pointless...unless you were doing it for the flourishes. In light of this realization I will definitely have to limit the uses per day.

This ability is confusing and potentially overpowered. First, what spells are eligible? Can he cast any spell of those levels from any class's spell list, or does it have to be from a given class? Second, what happens if he triggers Inspiration a second time (gets another critical hit, whatever)? The morale bonuses wouldn't stack, but would he be able to get another spell? If the answer is no, then this ability is probably fine, though I'd suggest limiting the spells either to the Wizard or the Bard list. It should probably also prohibit the use of this ability in conjunction with damage-dealing spells.
Originally I tried making a list of applicable spell effects, but it got too long to be worth it. Any sane DM would make a player keep a relatively small number of effects on flash cards for quick use, and of course survey this list before approving it. Yes it's open to any class' spell list. And I think your right, I'll add something to the description that disallows the use of Flourish more than once per minute or so. Why would you prohibit damage dealing spells?

oh, and is the spell's caster level the character's class level, or...?
Eh? If I understand the question: The effective caster level is equal to the ammount of levels the character has taken in the Ascendant class.

Free actions can still only be made on your turn - it sounds like you're thinking of him making it as an immediate action, or simply something that doesn't take an action.
Right, immediate action, that's what I should have put.

What counts as a save that negates damage, though? A Ref save for half damage (which negates half a spell's damage)? A save that negates all damage, regardless of what save and how it does so?
A save that negates all damage or fully negates any harmful effect.

Also, those immune to mind-affecting effects should be immune to this, since fear is a smaller subcatagory of mind-affecting effects.
All fear effects are mind effecting? Didn't realize that.

Cold Smile (Ex): When the Ascendant succeeds at a saving throw that reduces or totally negates damage from a spell or attack, all opponents within 30 ft. must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifier) or become Shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d6 + your Cha modifier. Opponents who succeed at their save are immune to the effect of your cold smile for 24 hours. Only creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher are affected.
Okay, I'll go with that, except make it work for total damage negation and negation of harmful effects.

When the Ascendant successfully uses his Inspiration ability, all opponents who witness the action and have an Intelligence score of at least 3 must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + half the Ascendant's class level + the Ascendant's Cha modifier) or take a -1 morale penalty to saving throws, attack rolls, and armor class for one round per class level of the Ascendant.[quote]
Yes, that works better, thank you.

[quote]Same issues as Flourish, but more so due to the higher caster level. In any case, I recommend removing the three lower level spells option.
Thanks for the input, but with the tweaks I'm making to Flourish I think it'll be fine.

Very nice ability, but hopefully not too overboard if his other stuff gets fixed up - it might be worth taking a second look at this, though, because especially in the context of an army unit it's extremely good.
I will reavaluate all Class Abilities in light of the changes that will be made to the Ascendant in the near future.

Far, far, FAR too powerful. By 20th level, this gives the character control of a small army of 15th level characters, when the standard soldier is a probably level 1 warrior. That's more powerful than just about anything else you could give him.
The balancing factor is that it's impossible to make use of in a normal campaign. Only an NPC antagonist or a PC in a specialized military campaign could use this.

I suggest just letting the character choose one of the two. Also, you should specify what you mean by faction (politicians vs. criminals? A specific group among those?)
Nobles/Senators/Kings/Queens/Elders/Mayors, whatever fills the position of "the powers that be" or members of organized crime(not just regular criminals). I want to leave the full ramifications of this mostly up to DM discretion.

and possible add to the vague ending that anyone from that faction will by default start with an attitude of Neutral or better toward the character unless the character has previously done something to lower that attitude.
Naw, this should effect the story more than the actual mechanics.

Why Spot, Listen, and Use Magic Device? The rest I can see, but I'm not sure I understand the logic behind including those three.
Spot and Listen because a general, a king, a courtier or a politician with enemies needs to be able to detect any obvious attempts on their life as well as aware of any unusual happenings going on in a political forum. As for UMD, an Ascendant is almost always Nobly-born, and therefore rich and capable of affording many creature comforts; in most settings the greatest of creature comforts tend to come in the form of magic, either a hired wizard or magic devices.
Encard

06-19-05, 12:45 PM		It'd be easier(and more effective) to give a Bard EWP(spiked chain).
I didn't literally mean a monkey. :P A character who's large, built around tripping, uses a spiked chain, and has a good Cha score.

If you can achieve Inspiration and avoid any number of AoOs while affectively flat-footed.
Well I suppose it would be easy if you're fighting hordes of weak enemies and attack from range.
Or someone with reach who trips well, which isn't too hard to achieve all in all.

Yes I see why flavor text is so important...An Ascendant needs to deal with running a kingdom/empire/city/whatever and hold his own in a political forum, and lead their army. If it is unbalancing I suppose it could be lowered to a +4, but this is probably the last thing that would need to be changed.
4+Int would be better, in my opinion.

Perhaps instead of "more than one" and "Hit Dice equal to his level or higher" it should be enemies whose total ECL are equal to his level or higher. Yes I think that's better. Thanks to you I'm fleshing this class out far better then before.
That does sound better, yep.

Mechanically that is good, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense in the context of the game world. Enemies don't normally get morale boosts just because one of their enemies fails a trip attempt.
Well, on the same token allies don't normally get a morale boost because one of their allies makes a trip attempt... It was based on the idea that the leader's triumph or humiliation (called a difficult action and succeeded, or conversely called a difficult action and failed) would either inspire his allies or inspire his enemies. *shrug*

I guess I should have mentioned that they overlap, not stack. If they did stack this would be incredibly broken. Doing more than one per round would be pointless...unless you were doing it for the flourishes. In light of this realization I will definitely have to limit the uses per day.
Yeah, that was what was worrying me, the possibility of effectively limitless quickened spells for a good tripper.

Originally I tried making a list of applicable spell effects, but it got too long to be worth it. Any sane DM would make a player keep a relatively small number of effects on flash cards for quick use, and of course survey this list before approving it. Yes it's open to any class' spell list. And I think your right, I'll add something to the description that disallows the use of Flourish more than once per minute or so. Why would you prohibit damage dealing spells?
Perhaps the character could know a limited number of spells he could activate this way, either equal to his class level or equal to half his class level? That might help keep things manageable and a bit more balanced than having access to each and every spell, while still giving the character the opportunity customize what spells he has nicely.

Damage dealing spells... To be honest, I can't completely put my finger on it - there's just something that bothers me about being able to trip one enemy (or a small group of them) and then wipe out a large portion of their army. I suppose that since I can't name a specific problem, though, that's more of a personal preference thing. Healing spells do worry me somewhat, since they could make it far, far easier for a character to survive in combat, but if it's limited in uses they probably aren't that big of an issue.

Something I'm wondering about, though - was this ability intended to be used by higher level characters amidst a horde of low-level mooks, or...? I'm interested because right now I really see two best ways of activating it, with the spiked chain tripper I'd mentioned above or amidst enemies of much lower level that simply can't hit you reliably. Against an enemy or enemies of roughly equal power, in my experience, you're much more likely to be hit than not. Perhaps, instead of an automatic failure if the character is hit, a concentration check like that used when taking damage while casting a spell might be better? I'm not too sure, honestly, but I figure it's an idea worth tossing into the ring.

All fear effects are mind effecting? Didn't realize that.
I think they are... I mean, it seems like it would make sense. I suppose I could be wrong, though.

The balancing factor is that it's impossible to make use of in a normal campaign. Only an NPC antagonist or a PC in a specialized military campaign could use this.
I can't say that I agree with you here. Campaigns often have downtime, sometimes long stretches of it - otherwise things like item creation feats would also be useless to PCs. A bit over a year of downtime, especially around level 20 when characters are comfortably set up, would not be particularly unheard of - besides, there are plenty of campaign options that could take place while the characters are in the Ascendant's stronghold. Also, whether this gets used in a standard campaign isn't so much an issue - the problem is that when it does get used, it's going to be very overpowered; the character will be controlling a roughly EL 29-30 army. An army of first-level character (which, from my understanding, are what normally compose most of an army) would require roughly 16,500 members to reach that EL. Considering leadership only gives you around 170 followers, that's pretty darn impressive.

To look at it another way, you're practically turning each of the charactere's followers into a cohort.

Spot and Listen because a general, a king, a courtier or a politician with enemies needs to be able to detect any obvious attempts on their life as well as aware of any unusual happenings going on in a political forum. As for UMD, an Ascendant is almost always Nobly-born, and therefore rich and capable of affording many creature comforts; in most settings the greatest of creature comforts tend to come in the form of magic, either a hired wizard or magic devices.
Well, by the same token fighters would be even more likely to have Spot and Listen, since they need to watch out for things trying to kill them on a daily basis, but fighters don't get those skills. Neither do a lot of other classes where it would make sense, really. Spot and Listen tends to be given to classes that make use of them on a continual basis - rogues for scouting and eavesdropping, rangers for finding things in the forest, bards (who only get Listen) for their musical abilities, and so on. It's not exactly unbalanced to give the class those skills, but I don't think they quite fit.

UMD... A rich character could pay people to cast spells for him. From what I understand, UMD is essentially the practice of tricking magic items into working for you - hance why it's rogues and bards that get it as a class skill. The character could still put ranks into it cross-class if he didn't have it as a class skill, in any case - I just think that it doesn't quite fit the mold you've set to give him UMD as a class skill.