Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob Loblaw 02-20-07, 11:53 AM	I have never felt that the fighter was too weak. In the games we play, fighters have their time in the spotlight like everyone else. However, that doesn't mean that I can't see weaknesses with the fighter. My approach is to keep with the versatility of the class rather than forcing specialization. This is a work in progress so please critique with support for your points on why something is good or bad. So, here goes (sorry, I can't seem to get the tables to show up properly so bear with me, please give some advice on this too): Table: The Fighter Level BAB Fort Ref Will Inspiration Ability 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 1 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 1 Bonus feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 2 Inspiration 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 2 Bonus feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 2 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 3 Bonus feat 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 3 Cross Training 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 3 Bonus feat 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 4 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 4 Bonus feat 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 4 Cross Training 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 5 Bonus feat 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 5 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 5 Bonus feat 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 6 Cross Training 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 6 Bonus feat 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 6 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 7 Bonus feat 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 7 Cross Training 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 7 Bonus feat Hit Die: d10. Class Skills The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Inspiration: A fighter gains a number of points that he may use to improve his combat prowess. The number of points he gains is equal to his fighter level/3 plus 1. These inspiration points are available each round. Every option lasts only so long. Unless otherwise specified, the option remains in effect until the start of the fighter’s next turn. • Improved Power Attack: The fighter may spend inspiration points to change the amount of extra damage dealt by Power Attack. For 1 point, every -2 penalty he takes to his attack roll increases his damage by +3 (or +3 for every -1 penalty). For 2 points, every -1 penalty he takes to his attack roll increases his damage by +2 (or +4 for every -1 penalty). • Improve Combat Expertise: For 1 point, every -2 penalty he takes to his attack roll improves his AC by +3. For 2 points, every -1 penalty he takes to his attack roll improves his AC by +2. This is a dodge bonus. • He may also choose to spend these points to improve his saving throws. He may spend 1 inspiration point to improve any save by +1. • Withstand The Enemy: Whenever a fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the fighter gains a +2 bonus to his check for every inspiration point he spends. This also applies when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. • Combat Insight: Before making an attack roll or damage roll, the fighter can spend 1 inspiration points to gain a competence bonus on the roll equal to his Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier. This bonus cannot exceed the fighter’s total number of inspiration points. He may spend an additional point to add another modifier to his roll, but this bonus still cannot be higher than his total number of inspiration points. If the fighter chooses, he could spend 3 points to improve his roll by all three modifiers with the same restriction. This is only useful for a single roll. He must spend the points each time he wishes to use this ability. • Shrug it Off: The fighter may spend 1 inspiration point to gain DR 2/--. For every point he spends, he improves this by an additional 2/--. • Penetrating Attack: The fighter may spend 1 inspiration point to bypass Damage Reduction and Hardness. For each point he spends, he may ignore 2 points of both Damage Reduction and Hardness. • Initiative Bonus: For every inspiration point the fighter chooses to spend, he may improve his initiative bonus by +1. • Avoid Counter Attacks: The fighter may spend 1 inspiration point to avoid an attack of opportunity. • Counter Skill: The fighter may spend inspiration points to increase the DC of Skills used against him in combat. Every point of inspiration spent increases the DC by 2. So if a rogue decides to Tumble through the fighter’s threatened area, a 6th level fighter may spend 3 points to increase the DC by 6. Cross Training: Choose Two Skills to have an Affinity for (any +2/+2 feat for skills is considered an Affinity feat for this ability). Those skills are now Fighter class skills for you. You gain a +2 bonus on both skills. From this point and on, you gain an additional skill point per Fighter level, which may only be spent on one of these two skills. Optionally, Choose One Skill to gain Talent in (+4). You gain an automatic skill point every level in that skill, and it is considered a Fighter class skill. You may choose new Cross Training skills at levels 7,11,15 and 19.
Otto the Bugbear 02-20-07, 12:15 PM	Pretty good. The only thing I'd reconsider is Powerful Build. As it stands, a character that weighs 200-300 pounds is going to end up wielding a weapon that outweighs him by several times at 17th level. One-handed at that. It looks retarded to boot. Separate the weapon size part from the combat maneuver part and you'll fix that issue. Or, just make him pick a special combat option (like bull rush, trip, grapple, etc.) and increase his size by one category. Then, at later levels, he can either increase his size one more category for that option, or he can have his size count as one larger for a new option. For example, Bob Loblaw, the human fighter gains 5th level. He chooses Trip and from that point onward, he counts as large for trip attempts (both initiating and defending against). At 9th level, he chooses Grapple, and counts as large for all grapple checks. Then, at 13th level, he again chooses Grapple and counts as Huge for grapple checks. Of course, the downside is that the other maneuvers are suddenly stuck at his regular size, where your original draft they all improved. Perhaps just go with the first option and make sure to separate the weapon size increases from the bonus he gains to the special combat maneuvers.
Squirrelloid 02-20-07, 12:21 PM	Agree with Otto - separate out the weapon size thing. What we want to see: Hercules wrestling the Nermean Lion to the ground despite its massive size advantage. (I think I spelled that right - its been a long time). We want to see the fighter go up to the Cloud Giant and Judo throw him off the mountain. (I think the size increase should be general to those combat options because making him choose one path destroys any ability of his to actually have some combat versatility). What we don't want to see: Humans with over-sized weapons unless that's their schtick. Most iconic fighters use normal size weapons.
Bob Loblaw 02-20-07, 02:19 PM	Pretty good. The only thing I'd reconsider is Powerful Build. Thanks. There are still some things I want to work on (like the skills and Inspiration). Separate the weapon size part from the combat maneuver part and you'll fix that issue. I didn't think about that. That wasn't my intention at all. I just did a cut-and-paste from the half-giant without reading it better. I'll change it.
aotrscommander 02-20-07, 03:40 PM	On getting your table sorted... Copy and paste your table into Notepad and get it formatted to your liking there. Then just paste it back into your post and it should retain the spacing and so on. Discovered that trick myself one day almost by accident. Edit: Notepad not Wordpad. Sorry.
Ghenesh 02-20-07, 03:58 PM	Mmm... Exceptional Powerful Build? Considered 4 size categories larger... that's kinda ridiculous, i mean, a gnome grappling a Great Wyrm... most of the monsters in the Monster Manual are Huge, so only one size increase is necessary (and logical). Inspiration sounds fresh, but it's kinda weird. Cross Training, i don't like it, it's a lot easier and better to increase the skill points per level and improve the skill list (most added in fighter fixes: Bluff, Listen, Knowledge(History), Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Tumble).
BoringInfoGuy 02-20-07, 05:33 PM	I agree with the design philosophy, but it goes too far. One size catagory higher at max. And I'd wouldn't apply it to see if it's possible to be swallowed. His skill should make him harder to swallow, but if he fails the check, he's still the same size. One of the things that you want to keep in mind when tweaking a class is to not negate the advantages / flavor of other classes. The monk class is currently the best grappler. Improved grapple is one of his bonus feat choices at [2nd] level, and his better unarmed lethal damage makes him very effective. But with the Powerful Build abilities, high level monks who took improved trip find themselve's powerless against a fighter's [+16] check modifier. Currently I've been working on my own fighter remix. One of the things I'm giving the fighter an ability called Combat Edge, which starts as a +1 bonus to opposed rolls in combat, that improves with level. I was also thinking of a feat that lets the fighter consider himself to be one size catagory larger than his current size when making oppossed rolls. The only requirement will be a BAB of [undecided], so that other classes may also take it.
Otto the Bugbear 02-20-07, 08:07 PM	The monk class is currently the best grappler. The monk is only a good grappler when 1. the level is so low that that the base attack bonus disparity is small 2. other characters, who are going to be focusing on grappling, don't take Imp. Grapple as one of their feats. And if they're going to focus on grappling, they're going to take the one feat that must take. Overall, barbarians make better grapplers. Strength focus, full base attack bonus, great hit die and rage own grappling monks with their 3/4 BAB, Wis/Dex/Con focus and weak hit die. But I digress. It's not about the fighter being better at grappling that class X. It's about the fighter being able to actually resist when these combat options are used against him.
aelryinth 02-20-07, 08:11 PM	Comments: Base Chassis: Classic and unchanged. Note: that you aren't commenting on changes to other classes to value up the Fighter's Core Chassis. Bonus feats unchanged, but new class abilities. Virtual feat equivalents: +8, with Inspiration probably worth at least +4. Total feats for class: ~23. Inspiration: This is supremely abusable. It provides a +5 bonus to AC, a continuous Power Attack bonus with no penalty to hit, more rerolls of saves then any Lucky character, excellent save buffing as needed. I don't mean to sound coy, but a Free +7 usable for Power Attack is +14 points of damage with every swing at level 18. So, I'd really limit what the points can be used for. Limit the number of them further, or limit them by encounter. Perhaps a pool of x per encounter, with y usable per round. You could have more fun with that mechanic, and keep a better line of control. Instead of virtual BAB, make them Insight or Luck bonuses, base the number usable/rd on level, and limit them to fixed bonuses to AC, Dmg, Saves, or the like. I'd force him to blow a LOT for a reroll, depleting his Pool markedly. Cross Training: Makes the Affinity Feats usable, and adds more skill points at later levels. Useful and certainly not overpowered. For Sake of simplicity, I'd just rework it like this: Choose Two Skills to have an Affinity for (any +2/+2 feat for skills is considered an Affinity feat for this ability). Those skills are now Fighter class skills for you. You gain a +2 bonus on both skills. From this point and on, you gain an additional skill point per Fighter level, which may only be spent on one of these two skills. Optionally, Choose One Skill to gain Talent in (+4). You gain an automatic skill point every level in that skill, and it is considered a Fighter class skill. You may choose new Cross Training skills at levels 7,11,15 and 19. this leaves freedom of choice, grants a substantial bonus for taking only a single skill, and amounts to 32 skill points over 14 levels, with modifiers of +16 providing a virtual 48 skill points...2 pts better then having 4 pts from the get go. The potential +4 modifier gives a substantial kickstart to a skill taken late, too. The other comments on powerful Build I will concur with. Look to the Warblade bonus of Int for Contested rolls against him as a guideline. Counting as a size bigger is a +4 bonus to such checks for each check...that could add up VERY quickly. Ignoring one size mod is very powerful against bigger foes, and would be useful as a broad app, perhaps going as high as two at higher levels (for up to a -8 from the grapples of Huge foes). Picking a virtual size increase for certain attack forms gives a stacking bonus on top of that...more effective against EVERYTHING, since it effectively gives you a +4 size mod (except, heh, against another Fighter). Even if you gained two virtual mods, your bonus would top out at +8, for a bonus of anywhere from 0 to +16, depending on the size and skills of your opponents! Interesting mechanic. I see you are focusing on the special combat manuvers as being the core shtick of the fighter. I tend to focus on the weapon tree myself. The oversized weapon is just, um, silly, heh. Better off just giving the Weapon Spec tree for free. Inspiration is very powerful and highly abusable, but a workable mechanic that just needs to be toned down some. I look forwards to seeing your revision of this Action Point effect! ===Aelryinth
Bob Loblaw 02-21-07, 01:09 AM	Otto covered what I was going to say about the monk being the best grappler so I'll skip that. Comments: Base Chassis: Classic and unchanged. Note: that you aren't commenting on changes to other classes to value up the Fighter's Core Chassis. Bonus feats unchanged, but new class abilities. Virtual feat equivalents: +8, with Inspiration probably worth at least +4. Total feats for class: ~23. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't generally redesign classes so you'll have to explain what the value of 23 means. How does that compare to other classes? Inspiration: This is supremely abusable. It provides a +5 bonus to AC, a continuous Power Attack bonus with no penalty to hit, more rerolls of saves then any Lucky character, excellent save buffing as needed. I don't mean to sound coy, but a Free +7 usable for Power Attack is +14 points of damage with every swing at level 18. So, I'd really limit what the points can be used for. Limit the number of them further, or limit them by encounter. Perhaps a pool of x per encounter, with y usable per round. You could have more fun with that mechanic, and keep a better line of control. Instead of virtual BAB, make them Insight or Luck bonuses, base the number usable/rd on level, and limit them to fixed bonuses to AC, Dmg, Saves, or the like. I'd force him to blow a LOT for a reroll, depleting his Pool markedly. I was trying to give the fighters a boost in flexibility. I continuously read how they can't hit as well as any other class nor can they get their AC to match what others can do. This was to give them that edge. It was meant to give them free points to play with. The reroll was kinda thrown in last minute. I was looking for a way to give them more chances at completing their task. I wasn't really stuck with this idea though. When I wrote it, I felt like I was doing something wrong. I'll scrap this part. Using these to improve his saves really isn't that bad either. I continuously read how fighters have saves that are too weak. This would allow them to improve their saves as they need to. However, it should be noted that if he uses his inspiration to improve his power attack, then he won't have those points to save for saving throws. Even at 20th level, he only has 7 points. This gives him some flexibility but he must choose how and when to use those points. Saving them for saving throws could end up costing him damage or hit points. I will be testing this when I have time to see how it works. Cross Training: Makes the Affinity Feats usable, and adds more skill points at later levels. Useful and certainly not overpowered. For Sake of simplicity, I'd just rework it like this: Choose Two Skills to have an Affinity for (any +2/+2 feat for skills is considered an Affinity feat for this ability). Those skills are now Fighter class skills for you. You gain a +2 bonus on both skills. From this point and on, you gain an additional skill point per Fighter level, which may only be spent on one of these two skills. Optionally, Choose One Skill to gain Talent in (+4). You gain an automatic skill point every level in that skill, and it is considered a Fighter class skill. You may choose new Cross Training skills at levels 7,11,15 and 19. this leaves freedom of choice, grants a substantial bonus for taking only a single skill, and amounts to 32 skill points over 14 levels, with modifiers of +16 providing a virtual 48 skill points...2 pts better then having 4 pts from the get go. The potential +4 modifier gives a substantial kickstart to a skill taken late, too. This is very similar to what I had originally thought of but I wasn't able to articulate it the way I wanted it. If you don't mind, I will just steal this exactly as written. The other comments on powerful Build I will concur with. Look to the Warblade bonus of Int for Contested rolls against him as a guideline. Counting as a size bigger is a +4 bonus to such checks for each check...that could add up VERY quickly. Ignoring one size mod is very powerful against bigger foes, and would be useful as a broad app, perhaps going as high as two at higher levels (for up to a -8 from the grapples of Huge foes). Picking a virtual size increase for certain attack forms gives a stacking bonus on top of that...more effective against EVERYTHING, since it effectively gives you a +4 size mod (except, heh, against another Fighter). Even if you gained two virtual mods, your bonus would top out at +8, for a bonus of anywhere from 0 to +16, depending on the size and skills of your opponents! One of the things I noticed was that the fighter's combat options tend to weaken a bit as he levels. The larger the creature, the less likely he is to be able to attempt his maneuvers. This was meant to compensate. I was thinking that it may have been too much, but after going through the SRD, I found that the fighter needs a slight boost. I was going to see how far I could take it. Really, he only needs two size categories (+8 total) to remain effective against most higher CR opponents. So, let's say I drop two of them, which two and what should replace them? Interesting mechanic. I see you are focusing on the special combat manuvers as being the core shtick of the fighter. I tend to focus on the weapon tree myself. The oversized weapon is just, um, silly, heh. Better off just giving the Weapon Spec tree for free. Inspiration is very powerful and highly abusable, but a workable mechanic that just needs to be toned down some. I look forwards to seeing your revision of this Action Point effect! ===Aelryinth I was trying to allow the player to still customize, but feel like his choices mattered at higher levels. I am not a big fan of retraining from the PHBII. While I see a need for it, I would like it to be as unnecessary as possible. I thought I removed the oversized weapon. If not, I will do so. That was not supposed to be part of the class. I am not a fan of the anime swords and was trying to avoid them. Thank you everyone for your input so far. I want to play test this in an upcoming game if the DM will allow (it may be a month or more so we can take our time).
Bob Loblaw 02-21-07, 01:17 AM	On getting your table sorted... Copy and paste your table into Notepad and get it formatted to your liking there. Then just paste it back into your post and it should retain the spacing and so on. Discovered that trick myself one day almost by accident. Edit: Notepad not Wordpad. Sorry. Thanks very much. That was actually much easier than I expected. It looks much cleaner now.
Bob Loblaw 02-21-07, 01:23 AM	Mmm... Exceptional Powerful Build? Considered 4 size categories larger... that's kinda ridiculous, i mean, a gnome grappling a Great Wyrm... most of the monsters in the Monster Manual are Huge, so only one size increase is necessary (and logical). So a few people have mentioned that I may have gone overboard with this. If I limit this to a total of +8, what should I replace it with and at which levels? Inspiration sounds fresh, but it's kinda weird. It is a little wierd. I have been trying to work on the wording to make it clearer. If you have any suggestions, let me know. Cross Training, i don't like it, it's a lot easier and better to increase the skill points per level and improve the skill list (most added in fighter fixes: Bluff, Listen, Knowledge(History), Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Tumble). The idea here was to allow for the player to customize the fighter to be the archtype that they want. Rather than me determining what I felt was the perfect fighter. I felt that this was more in line with what the designers were going for with the bonus feats so I kept it that way. I don't feel that the archtypical knight should have Bluff or Tumble. The swashbuckler shouldn't have Knowledge (history) or Survival. The brawler (Heracles was mentioned earlier) shouldn't necessarily have Sense Motive (most of the heroes of mythology tend to be duped quite often). Since there are tons of fighter archtypes, I wanted the player to create his own with a more customizable class.
Bob Loblaw 02-21-07, 01:28 AM	I agree with the design philosophy, but it goes too far. One size catagory higher at max. And I'd wouldn't apply it to see if it's possible to be swallowed. His skill should make him harder to swallow, but if he fails the check, he's still the same size. I wasn't really thinking that his actual size changes. I was thinking that he is good enough that he can make himself that much more difficult to deal with. He could be a slippery fellow. He could be buff. He could just be a flailing SOB when someone tries to eat him. I know the name of the ability is not really all that great. Like I mentioned earlier, I just stole it from the half-giant, name and all. Currently I've been working on my own fighter remix. One of the things I'm giving the fighter an ability called Combat Edge, which starts as a +1 bonus to opposed rolls in combat, that improves with level. I was also thinking of a feat that lets the fighter consider himself to be one size catagory larger than his current size when making oppossed rolls. The only requirement will be a BAB of [undecided], so that other classes may also take it. Show me more. I think we are trying to accomplish the same thing with different methods. I would like to see how Combat Edge works at low, mid, and high levels. It may give me some more ideas on fleshing things out.
BoringInfoGuy 02-21-07, 02:14 AM	The monk is only a good grappler when 1. the level is so low that that the base attack bonus disparity is small 2. other characters, who are going to be focusing on grappling, don't take Imp. Grapple as one of their feats. And if they're going to focus on grappling, they're going to take the one feat that must take. Overall, barbarians make better grapplers. Strength focus, full base attack bonus, great hit die and rage own grappling monks with their 3/4 BAB, Wis/Dex/Con focus and weak hit die. But I digress. It's not about the fighter being better at grappling that class X. It's about the fighter being able to actually resist when these combat options are used against him. This is an aside to the main point, but consider these points about grappling. Monks can take Improved Grapple at first level for free. Other classes need to take Improved Unarmed Strike first, and have 13+ dex to qualify. Human barbarians can get it at first level. But even with Imp Grap, the Barbarian needs to take a -4 to his attack roll to make attacks in a grapple. All he can use is unarmed strike, any natural attacks (none for core races) or a light weapon. So, at best, even with Imp Grap, the Barbarian can do only 1d6 + STR Mod with - 4 to his attack roll. See Attacking your Opponent under the grappling rules. This option does not use an opposed grapple roll, so he wouldn't get the +4 benefit from the Imp Grap feat. If he instead uses the Damage your Opponent option, he instead would only be able to do 1d3 +Str Mod, on a successful grapple check. The monk can instead make an attack with the same -4 penalty to do 1d6 +STR Mod, then 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, and finaly 2d10 + STR mod. When using the Damage your opponent option, he gets to do the same damage on a successful Grapple Check. Now, a Raging Barbarian would get increasing bonuses to grapple checks and damage, but with the -2 AC penalty. For the Monk, this means that he can take the grapple attack option with only a -2 effective penalty. Add in the differences to BAB, Hit Points and what not, and a Grapple build Barbarian may still be superior. I'm tempted to work out the differences later to see how large the difference is, and who comes out ahead. Now, to my earlier point. Even if a Barbarian or Fighter does a grapple build, it doesn't completely obliterate a monks ability to do the same. It's not about the fighter being better at grappling that class X. It's about the fighter being able to actually resist when these combat options are used against him. But it is about the new fighter not making the other melee classes lose the things that make them special. The main problem with the fighter is that there's only one thing he can do that no other class can. The solution is not to make the fighter the class that makes it so that every other melee class feel bad about themselves.
mkill 02-21-07, 04:56 AM	I agree with others here that the Powerful Build goes too far. Also, it only helps one fighter archetype, the tripping / grappler builds. What about archers? Weapon specialists? Skirmishers / Whirlwind attackers? AoO specialists? The usual solution here is: Don't give him extra class specials, make it a feat and give him more feats. A reduced version of powerful build (without the ability to wield oversized weapons) could very well be a feat. As for Inspiration: I kind of like it, but it's too number-crunchy. I don't want to see fighters calculating every round doing something like Player: "uhh, okay, i reduce my BAB by 5 to spend 3 on Combat Expertise, and 2 on Power Attack, and give each of them one from Inspiration, with the rest of Inspiration I boost my saves. No, wait, I spend all my BAB on Power Attack, use 3 of Inspiration for AC, ... What was the AC of that dragon again? Oh, he still has spells left, right? Mh, so that's 6 to the saves then, or make it 8, and ..." DM: :waits: Second, low level fighters are actually okay, so they don't need a boost there. So, Inspiration as I like it: * only at higher levels, starting at 5 or 7 * cannot be split up, use it all or don't * more interesting uses Suggested uses for Inspiration: (any use uses up your full bonus for that round) * Familiarize yourself with a weapon. You gain proficiency with that weapon. If you have Weapon Focus (and other feats from that tree), but selected another weapon for them, you are able to apply weapon focus to the weapon you wield * Add Inspiration bonus to one combat related skill-check that round (Tumble to avoid AoO, Bluff to Feint, Sense Motive to counter feint etc.) * Add Inspiration bonus to Fortitude, Reflex OR Will saves * Add Inspiration bonus to numeric effect of any one feat * Gain one feat for that round. You must fulfill all prerequisites for the feat and it must be on the fighter bonus list * Add Inspiration bonus to DC of skill checks to avoid AoO by you (Tumble / Concentration) * Add Inspiration bonus to Initiative in the first round of combat
Otto the Bugbear 02-21-07, 07:32 AM	This is an aside to the main point, but consider these points about grappling. Monks can take Improved Grapple at first level for free. Other classes need to take Improved Unarmed Strike first, and have 13+ dex to qualify. Human barbarians can get it at first level. True. And I stipulated that at low level, when another character may not have had the chance to take feats geared toward his focus of grappling, and the BAB disparity hadn't yet reared its ugly head so much, that this was true. But even with Imp Grap, the Barbarian needs to take a -4 to his attack roll to make attacks in a grapple. All he can use is unarmed strike, any natural attacks (none for core races) or a light weapon. So, at best, even with Imp Grap, the Barbarian can do only 1d6 + STR Mod with - 4 to his attack roll. See Attacking your Opponent under the grappling rules. This option does not use an opposed grapple roll, so he wouldn't get the +4 benefit from the Imp Grap feat. If he instead uses the Damage your Opponent option, he instead would only be able to do 1d3 +Str Mod, on a successful grapple check. Explain why he's making attacks in a grapple? With his vastly superior strength and base attack bonus, why isn't he using Damage Your Opponent? Sure, 1d3 averages 2 points of damage, and 1d6 averages 3.5 points of damage, but it's the Str mod and BAB that's going to get you in the end, not a weapon. The monk can instead make an attack with the same -4 penalty to do 1d6 +STR Mod, then 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, and finaly 2d10 + STR mod. When using the Damage your opponent option, he gets to do the same damage on a successful Grapple Check. You need to get that part about attacking with a weapon during a grapple out of your head. A character that is grapple focused will not be using that option, because it is dumb. Now, a Raging Barbarian would get increasing bonuses to grapple checks and damage, but with the -2 AC penalty. For the Monk, this means that he can take the grapple attack option with only a -2 effective penalty. Huh? Once in a grapple, you AC has nothing to do with being grappled. Or are you still stuck on that thought that Attacking in a Grapple is a tactic that any dedicated grappler actually uses? Add in the differences to BAB, Hit Points and what not, and a Grapple build Barbarian may still be superior. I'm tempted to work out the differences later to see how large the difference is, and who comes out ahead. I'm not sure at what level it really starts to look ugly for the monk, but level 8 is already not too pretty. By level 10, the barbarian -- even dealing a "mere" 1d3+Str -- is almost at the same average damage. And has a lot more hit points and strength. Now, to my earlier point. Even if a Barbarian or Fighter does a grapple build, it doesn't completely obliterate a monks ability to do the same. I didn't say it obliterated the monks ability to grapple. I said the monk is not the best grappler. Don't change the goal posts.
Bob Loblaw 02-21-07, 12:21 PM	I agree with others here that the Powerful Build goes too far. Also, it only helps one fighter archetype, the tripping / grappler builds. What about archers? Weapon specialists? Skirmishers / Whirlwind attackers? AoO specialists? It will actually help all fighters. There are plenty of opponents who use tactics like disarming, bull rushes, grapples, trips, etc. All of these situations will grant the fighter a bonus on his opposed check. The fighter that takes Weapon Supremacy will have a +12 bonus to avoid being disarmed (assuming that I reduce the powerful builds to just two steps). He would still have his +18 from being a fighter granting him a total of +30 without accounting for his strength. That's not bad. The usual solution here is: Don't give him extra class specials, make it a feat and give him more feats. A reduced version of powerful build (without the ability to wield oversized weapons) could very well be a feat. Reduced how? Currently it does not allow for wielding oversized weapons. Since all fighters can benefit from it, why not just make it a class ability. I can certainly change the name to give it more flexibility. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it doesn't have to stem from just brute strength. A swashbuckler or pirate can certainly benefit. It's all about resisting the tactics. As for Inspiration: I kind of like it, but it's too number-crunchy. I don't want to see fighters calculating every round doing something like Player: "uhh, okay, i reduce my BAB by 5 to spend 3 on Combat Expertise, and 2 on Power Attack, and give each of them one from Inspiration, with the rest of Inspiration I boost my saves. No, wait, I spend all my BAB on Power Attack, use 3 of Inspiration for AC, ... What was the AC of that dragon again? Oh, he still has spells left, right? Mh, so that's 6 to the saves then, or make it 8, and ..." DM: :waits: I was thinking the same thing when I wrote it. After some thought though, I came to the conclusion that they already do this. When my fighters haved power attack and combat expertise, I already have to take this into account. Giving me a few more points really isn't that much. Remember that the fighter only has, at best, 7 points to spend. These are virtual so he cannot spend more than he would be able to without them. If a 6th level fighter wants to improve his power attack, he can spend no more than 6 points total. This includes his BAB. So he would have 9 points (6 BAB and 3 Inspiration). He cannot spend more than 6 on Power Attack and no more than 5 on Combat Expertise (and he wouldn't have enough to do both at this level). So, Inspiration as I like it: * only at higher levels, starting at 5 or 7 * cannot be split up, use it all or don't * more interesting uses Suggested uses for Inspiration: (any use uses up your full bonus for that round) * Familiarize yourself with a weapon. You gain proficiency with that weapon. If you have Weapon Focus (and other feats from that tree), but selected another weapon for them, you are able to apply weapon focus to the weapon you wield * Add Inspiration bonus to one combat related skill-check that round (Tumble to avoid AoO, Bluff to Feint, Sense Motive to counter feint etc.) * Add Inspiration bonus to Fortitude, Reflex OR Will saves * Add Inspiration bonus to numeric effect of any one feat * Gain one feat for that round. You must fulfill all prerequisites for the feat and it must be on the fighter bonus list * Add Inspiration bonus to DC of skill checks to avoid AoO by you (Tumble / Concentration) * Add Inspiration bonus to Initiative in the first round of combat Since the number of points really isn't all that much (especially at low levels), I won't worry about changing that part. I was trying to come up with other uses. I like several that you suggested. I'll see about incorporating some of them. I especially like the initiative bonus.
BoringInfoGuy 02-21-07, 04:42 PM	Show me more. I think we are trying to accomplish the same thing with different methods. I would like to see how Combat Edge works at low, mid, and high levels. It may give me some more ideas on fleshing things out. Sorry, didn't see this while I was writing up on grappling with Otto. Combat Edge gives the fighter a +1 when making opposed rolls in combat. Trip, Sunder, Feint, Grapple, Bull Rush, etc. This is to reflect that the Fighter class is the single most combat focused class in the game. All the special attacks that any class can make, the fighter should be able to do better. As the fighter increases in level, the bonus also increases. The bonus applies both offensively and defensively. Ex, the fighter gets to add the bonus when he wants to trip someone, and when someone tries to trip him. At the moment, it's +1 at 3rd level, and increases by +1 every 3 levels to max out at +6 total bonus at level 18. Now, that may not seem like much. But think of it this way, By level 12, the fighter gets the same +4 bonus that the feats Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, etc, without needing to have taken the feats. If he does want to take one or more of them, then he has a +8 bonus to any special attack he takes a feat in. [Edit: Actualy, my latest version was already changed to a +1 at level 3, and +1 every 4 levels. The current max is only +5 at level 19. Today has been a brain off day for me.]
aelryinth 02-21-07, 04:52 PM	Otto covered what I was going to say about the monk being the best grappler so I'll skip that. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't generally redesign classes so you'll have to explain what the value of 23 means. How does that compare to other classes? ). WHen I compare martial classes, I simply assign feat values to their abilities and count them up by levels. Warblades get 14 manuvers, each of which equals a feat. They get 4 bonus feats, 6 Int based class abilities, and 8 'upgrades' of feats from less to more powerful, +Weapon Versatility and Aptitude and so forth. So, a Warblade has 33 or so feat equivalents. Nice, eh? ===Aelryinth
BoringInfoGuy 02-22-07, 02:01 AM	Explain why he's making attacks in a grapple? With his vastly superior strength and base attack bonus, why isn't he using Damage Your Opponent? Sure, 1d3 averages 2 points of damage, and 1d6 averages 3.5 points of damage, but it's the Str mod and BAB that's going to get you in the end, not a weapon. I was listing the two methods that a character can do damage in a grapple. It's a bad idea to simply dismiss an option. You need to get that part about attacking with a weapon during a grapple out of your head. A character that is grapple focused will not be using that option, because it is dumb. And here's why it is not dumb. The attack your opponent option bypasses the need for an opposed grapple check. When grappling an opponent with a better Grapple check, you may find that gives you better odds. Huh? Once in a grapple, you AC has nothing to do with being grappled. Or are you still stuck on that thought that Attacking in a Grapple is a tactic that any dedicated grappler actually uses? I would think that a dedicated grappler would want to keep all his options in mind. Think of it this way. The monk gets to use his unarmed damage in a grapple whether he uses the Attack your Opponent or Damage your Opponent option. A raging barbarian raises his grapple check and lowers his AC. So the monk, who does the same damage either way, probably would switch to the attack option at that point. The attack option also has a chance to roll a crit, which you can't while using the Damage your Opponent option. I'm not sure at what level it really starts to look ugly for the monk, but level 8 is already not too pretty. By level 10, the barbarian -- even dealing a "mere" 1d3+Str -- is almost at the same average damage. And has a lot more hit points and strength. And you can add the Barbarian's damage reduction. Ok, ok, I give, a raging Barbarian makes a better grappler. Once the barbarian gets greater rage, he just gets that much better. (And the monk really needs to use the Attack your Opponent option to have a chance to damage the barbarian at all). I didn't say it obliterated the monks ability to grapple. I said the monk is not the best grappler. Don't change the goal posts. At this point, you're on the wrong field. No, you did not say that the barbarian obliterated the monk's ability to grapple. Nor was I trying to claim you had. That wasn't the earlier point I was referring to. Check my first post. The Powerful Build abilities gave a high level fighter an additional +16 addition to opposed rolls with a size modifier. THAT obliterates the monks ability to grapple. And a Barbarians.
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 11:25 AM	I have made some changes to the class based on the discussions so far. Let me know what you think of Powerful Build and Inspiration points now.
Largegnome 02-22-07, 12:58 PM	• Improve Combat Expertise: The fighter may spend 1 inspiration point to improve Combat Expertise to be effective against touch attacks as well. If he also has Improved Combat Expertise, he can spend 2 points to have the bonus to Armor Class be effective against Incorporeal attacks. Uhm...dodge bonuses are already effective against touch attacks. They're lost if your opponent is invisible. Combat Expertise grants a dodge bonus to AC. Just improve the ratio (3:2?) and you should be fine, I guess. 2:1 would work as well, as long as you cap it, IMHO.
aelryinth 02-22-07, 02:28 PM	You need to drop the Dr x/-. At level 18, thats a dr of 16/- against every attack...waaaay too much. I suggest temporary hit points...in other words, one shot DR against all attacks, but it 'renews' every round. That might still be too much, and you might need to down grade it more, to 1 temp hit point. 1 pt = imp Power Attack and 2= supreme? Um, wow. Combat Expertise is already effective against touch attacks. You might want to put in that every point allows you to keep the bonuses when not in melee. so 2 IP allows you to keep a +2 Expert bonus when not in melee...which lets you use IP outside of melee combat. Can he boost his saves or initiative as an immediate action? Else, he probably is best off keeping all IP 'spending' into his init for ambushes, and then start re-assigning them. Once he rolls init and reassigns them, does his init order change? Combat Insight gives a Th or Dmg bonus. You already are doing that with Power Attack, above...and pretty substantial one. Note that spending your first two IP for Supreme Power Attack and then the rest on TH boosting is a 1:4 dmg increase. Summation; good ideas, but you need to bring them down to earth a bit more. You also need to explain how they work in situations where the Fighter is not in combat. ==Aelryinth
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 02:29 PM	Uhm...dodge bonuses are already effective against touch attacks. They're lost if your opponent is invisible. Combat Expertise grants a dodge bonus to AC. Just improve the ratio (3:2?) and you should be fine, I guess. 2:1 would work as well, as long as you cap it, IMHO. I don't know why I didn't notice this. Thanks. Changing it now.
BoringInfoGuy 02-22-07, 02:29 PM	Questions arise as to when the Fighter can choose to apply is Inspiration points. Can he wait to put the points into Shrug it Off until after he is hit? Before Damage is rolled against him? After? How about the ability to improve saving throws. Does the fighter need to use his points when he thinks that it may be useful, or can he wait until he actually needs to make the save? Declare before rolling, or add the points to change a failing save into a passing one? Basicly, if the Fighter can choose to use the points only after he finds he needs them, it is a more flexible, and therefore powerful, ability. If the Fighter needs to declare how he's spending his points on his action, then that means the player needs to really consider what he's up against each round. I can see both being valid, but which fit what you had in mind?
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 02:42 PM	You need to drop the Dr x/-. At level 18, thats a dr of 16/- against every attack...waaaay too much. I suggest temporary hit points...in other words, one shot DR against all attacks, but it 'renews' every round. That might still be too much, and you might need to down grade it more, to 1 temp hit point. It should be DR 14/--, but I see your point. I was debating between DR 1/-- and DR 2/--. I think I'll just make it DR 1/--. 1 pt = imp Power Attack and 2= supreme? Um, wow. I was trying to find another way to improve power attack from what I originally had that was less confusing. This does cost points so it isn't as powerful as Frenzied Bersker (still very, very useful though). You might want to put in that every point allows you to keep the bonuses when not in melee. so 2 IP allows you to keep a +2 Expert bonus when not in melee...which lets you use IP outside of melee combat. Not a bad idea. This would allow him to be ready even if ambushed. I like it. Can he boost his saves or initiative as an immediate action? Else, he probably is best off keeping all IP 'spending' into his init for ambushes, and then start re-assigning them. Once he rolls init and reassigns them, does his init order change? I didn't think about that. I was thinking that improving saves was not an action. I was also thinking that the initiative bonus was a one time thing, at the beginning of combat. However, your question made me think that it would be interesting to see the fighter use his inspiration to act sooner and sooner in the combat. I'll think this over. Combat Insight gives a Th or Dmg bonus. You already are doing that with Power Attack, above...and pretty substantial one. Note that spending your first two IP for Supreme Power Attack and then the rest on TH boosting is a 1:4 dmg increase. See what happens when I do too many things at once. I forget that I already did one of them. I think I may drop this one. I was trying to find a way for someone to take advantage of putting higher stats in the mental stats. Summation; good ideas, but you need to bring them down to earth a bit more. You also need to explain how they work in situations where the Fighter is not in combat. Thanks. That's why I'm posting them here. So far everyone has actually given a lot of good advice with not a single flame. I'll work on explaining how they work outside of combat. I need to think them through and then make changes.
BoringInfoGuy 02-22-07, 04:41 PM	Just so you know, I really like the Inspiration Point mechanic. It gives the flexibility in combat that a fighter should have. How it's applied still needs some tweaking. It would be better if it could be a more uniform bonus. Inspiration improves some of the fighters feats. But what about the non core books? Most of them add a feat or five. How should Inspiration Points work with them?
Bob Loblaw 02-22-07, 05:34 PM	Just so you know, I really like the Inspiration Point mechanic. It gives the flexibility in combat that a fighter should have. How it's applied still needs some tweaking. It would be better if it could be a more uniform bonus. Inspiration improves some of the fighters feats. But what about the non core books? Most of them add a feat or five. How should Inspiration Points work with them? Thanks for the compliment on the Inspiration. I pretty much just stole the idea from another class and have been trying to adapt it to the fighter. Currently I am trying to avoid the non-core books. The only reason is that I don't want this to be too complex. I think the DMs should make adjustments as he sees fit. I will look the feats over and see if there are some common themes that I can focus on for the Inspiration. If you see some common themes, post them for me please.
BoringInfoGuy 02-22-07, 08:23 PM	I was looking at it, and it does seem difficult. Take Blind Fight. It lets you reroll your miss chance for concealment. What bonus do you put into it? Spend [x] IP to reroll again if you miss? Could work, but this type of feat is already best suited to the fighter. Most other classes won't want to spend one of their feats on something that is only sometimes useful. The fighter's bonus feats makes such "purchases" less painful. And I have a concern with spending IP points to raise Power Attacks damage. Two handed weapons, (and one handed weapons weilded in two hands) already add 1.5 times the strength modifier. And using Power Attack on a two handed weapon gives you a +2 damage for every 1 point off of your attack roll. (As opposed to the +1 for each -1 for a one handed weapon.) The way the IP bonus is written, I'm not certain what bonus you get when spending IP in this case. Even without that, spending 2 IP to get a +4 bonus for every -1 you take on your attack roll seems too much. Think what a Greater Weapon Specialist (Greatsword) could do by level 20. Could any other melee class, even a raging barbarian, do anything even close?
Bob Loblaw 02-24-07, 02:02 AM	And I have a concern with spending IP points to raise Power Attacks damage. Two handed weapons, (and one handed weapons weilded in two hands) already add 1.5 times the strength modifier. And using Power Attack on a two handed weapon gives you a +2 damage for every 1 point off of your attack roll. (As opposed to the +1 for each -1 for a one handed weapon.) The way the IP bonus is written, I'm not certain what bonus you get when spending IP in this case. Even without that, spending 2 IP to get a +4 bonus for every -1 you take on your attack roll seems too much. Think what a Greater Weapon Specialist (Greatsword) could do by level 20. Could any other melee class, even a raging barbarian, do anything even close? I was thinking about all that. One of the complaints I hear about the fighter is that he can't compare to other classes when it comes to dealing damage. This option lets him compare to those classes. The paladin can smite for some decent damage. The barbarian can really dish it out with his rage and two-handed weapon. Also remember that power attack forces you to take penalties on your attacks. The more you power attack, the less likely you will hit, especially with your iterative attacks.
BoringInfoGuy 02-26-07, 01:56 AM	I was thinking about all that. One of the complaints I hear about the fighter is that he can't compare to other classes when it comes to dealing damage. This option lets him compare to those classes. The paladin can smite for some decent damage. The barbarian can really dish it out with his rage and two-handed weapon. Also remember that power attack forces you to take penalties on your attacks. The more you power attack, the less likely you will hit, especially with your iterative attacks. Note: This only covers the bonuses from class abilities, and ignores normal STR bonuses. Also, I only look at the STR bonus from rage, since con doesn't help damage dealing. The raging barbarian get's a +4 bonus to STR at level from levels 1 to 10. That gives a +2 to hit and damage. (+3 Damage with a 2-handed weapon) At level 11 it increases to +6. That becomes a +3 to hit and damage. (+4 with a two handed weapon) Only at level 20 does it become a +8 to Str. At that point, the barbarian adds +4 to hit and damage. (+6 with a two handed weapon) In comparison, a fighter can take weapon specialization at level 4. That grants him a +2 to damage. Since it's a direct bonus to damage instead of Str, it doesn't get any bonus for being used with a two handed weapon. But it doesn't get cut to half damage with a light weapon. It also can be applied to ranged weapons. Adding a bonus to STR won't help with a BOW. Unless you have a composite bow that's set higher than your normal Str. By level 12, a fighter can take Greater specialization, granting a +4 to damage. The same differences as before apply. Also, a fighter must have taken weapon focus and greater weapon focus, giving a +2 to hit. Compare that to the +2, +3, and +4 to hit that the barbarian gets. Since this is from a Str bonus, it can't be applied to range attacks. Weapon focus and G W Focus can be applied to range. But the barbarian can also take W Focus, to get an additional +1 to hit. Last point, the rage bonus only lasts as long as the rage. Plenty of time most battles. But if it isn't, the barbarian is in a bit of trouble. W Special is always on, as long as the fighter as his selected weapon. But if he's denined it, then he has effectively lost his feats. So the barbarians rage, which he always gets, seems to have better advantages than weapon specialization, which is only optional. Still, it's not that much weaker. Now, Inspiring Power Attack can get a +4 to every -1 to hit. Now, if the fighter wants to be a power hitter, he's going to take Specialization. So, by level 12, he's got +2 to hit and +4 damage with his selected weapon. By only taking a -2 to hit, he can then add +8 to damage. Add that with specialization, and you have a +12 to damage. That's triple the damage a 12th level raging barbarian can deal. And all for only losing the bonus that G W Focus grants. At this point, he still has 3 IP to use. And if takes off another point to hit, it's +16 damage. -4 for +20? It's just too much for too little. Why not divorce it from the feats? You could make it something like a +1 damage for every I.P. you spend. A 12 level weapon special fighter would have a +9 to damage, if he used all his I.P. He could up it by more by using Power attack. Similar damage levels, but more cost. A plus 1 to AC for every point you spend. A plus 1 to hit for every point you spend. A plus 1 to intiative for every point you spend. (Spent before rolling Intiative) A plus 1 to fort saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn) A plus 1 to reflex saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn) A plus 1 to willpower saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn). 1 point of DR for every 2 I.P. the fighter spends (Since DR is a barbarian specialty, the fighter shouldn't be able to do better) Etc.
Bob Loblaw 02-26-07, 10:04 AM	Why not divorce it from the feats? You could make it something like a +1 damage for every I.P. you spend. A 12 level weapon special fighter would have a +9 to damage, if he used all his I.P. He could up it by more by using Power attack. Similar damage levels, but more cost. A plus 1 to AC for every point you spend. A plus 1 to hit for every point you spend. A plus 1 to intiative for every point you spend. (Spent before rolling Intiative) A plus 1 to fort saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn) A plus 1 to reflex saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn) A plus 1 to willpower saves for every point you spend. (Set during the fighters turn). 1 point of DR for every 2 I.P. the fighter spends (Since DR is a barbarian specialty, the fighter shouldn't be able to do better) Etc. Thank you for the breakdown on the math. Sometimes I'm just not in a math-mood so I don't do as much as I should. I like this. Simple, efficient, and consistent. I may just change it to this.
BoringInfoGuy 02-27-07, 01:04 AM	Thanks. While I enjoy doing run downs like that, positive feedback is always appreciated. (Nobody forced the name Boring on me). One last suggestion, since I was thinking about it. You could make it so that you can only put 4 I.P. into any one bonus. With the cap, a non specialist fighter could get the same bonus to damage that the feats give. If he wants to do major damage, then he can take specialization, add the I.P., and put as many point of Power attack that he feels he can get away with. That should be equal to or better than a barbarians rage. The other thing a cap would do is force the player to think more about how to spend his I.P. He can't just pick one favorite bonus and always max it. (He could just pick two bonuses, but still).