Post/Author/DateTime	Post
screwup907 06-23-04, 05:59 PM	Hey just trying to get some opinions on whether or not these changes to the fighter class would be good for a player in my group. What he wants to do is drop the fighters hit die down to a d8, drop the shield and heavy armor proficiencies, and instead pick up another good save, the skills of a ranger, and automatic proficiency with the spiked chain. Any input would be good here,
Blackswordsman 06-23-04, 06:47 PM	so he gives up like 1 average hp and 2 feats, and gains 4 extra skill points per level, and another good save and an EWP.....i think its quite easy to see, he's getting too much for free. And those are prolly things he'll never use as the way it looks he's going medium armor whirlwinding/spring attacking spike chain user. So he's really losing nothing. Tell him to play ranger and multiclass fighter.
screwup907 06-23-04, 09:09 PM	thx... but I'm looking for more of a way to give him what he wants but limit him a little more... and I honestly hate having a ranger in a campaign since they are so over powered in 3.5 and are no where near balanced to the other classes... IMO.
Geethree 06-23-04, 10:00 PM	and I honestly hate having a ranger in a campaign since they are so over powered in 3.5 and are no where near balanced to the other classes... IMO.I think that's your problem. While many people think that the 3.5e Ranger is an improvement from 3e, it's hardly overpowered. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people consider it in the bottom half of all of the classes power-wise.
screwup907 06-23-04, 11:05 PM	as I said, In My Opinion (IMO)... but I also know that I'm not the first person to make said comment Originally posted by TrueExodite I'm glad to debate the issue but if you intend to reply to this post please start a new thread as this would be OT and could go on for some time. Let's make a basis of comparison - the Fighter. Good BAB. Good fort save, bad ref and will. d10 HD. 2 skill points per level from a crap list. 11 bonus feats. Optional Weapon Specialization, GWF and GWS. The Ranger get two good saves, that would certainly qualify for at least two bonus feats as he starts out with +2 over the Fighter and ends up with +6. The Ranger get 5 straight-from-the-book feats. Track, Endurance and three weapon-style feats. The Ranger get 4 levels of spellcasting, worth about 4 feats - including the ability to use spell trigger items. Ie. Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Evasion is easily worth one feat as well. The weak Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight aren't worth a feat each on their own but let's say 3 alltogether. Three times the amount of skill points per level from a significantly better list is hard to adjudicate, I'd say 4 feats - one per skill point - to keep it on the low end. And then we have Favored Enemy... this ends up as a total +18 to damage and to a total of 5 skills, spread amongst 5 creature types. Choosing well here would result in your bonuses applying to about a third of the significant enemies of the campaign and with all weapons in the case of damage. Assuming an equally spread bonus for ease of calculation this nets us +3.6, the equivalent of Greater Weapon Specialization in all weapons and Skill Focus in 5 good skills at no cost. Let us say that you make use of three weapons, not an unreasonable assumption, and keeping Greater Weapon Specialization as 2 feats instead of 4 since you don't get the bonus to hit that would equal (3(weapons)x2(GWS)+5(Skill Focus)/3) (for a third of the enemies) or roughly 4 feats. In fact, since Favored Enemy allow for such feats as Improved Favored Enemy and can apply even more often in a campaign with more focused opposition I'd say 5 feats, one for each instance of the ability, and that would be fair. So, adding up, we get Fighter 11 - Ranger 24. Even if I subtract 4 feats for lower HD, Medium and Heavy Armor Proficieny and Tower Shield Proficiency the Ranger is so clearly much better it isn't even funny. And I wont subtract those 4 feats either as lacking them is not detrimental to the Ranger class. More hit points is always welcome but even if he had access to Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency he wouldn't use them, ditto for Tower Shield Proficiency. As the Ranger relies on DEX, speed, Evasion, archey or TWF as well as numerous skill that has an armor check penalty they are of no use to him. Making an analogy in the WHFB universe would be creating a super-powered weapon for your Khorne lord that is 'balanced' by the fact that its wielder can never, even, use ranged weapons. Cool, until you realize that a Khorne character can't use ranged weapons in the first place, then it becomes the m-word instead. And so it is with the Ranger. Yes, I didn't like the 3.0 Ranger either, though not because it was too weak - it wasn't, but because of the flavor and mechanical problems. And now it's even worse. *sigh* So, that's why the Ranger is broken. Feel free to disagree but do so in another post, please.
UltimateGnome 06-23-04, 11:30 PM	Well since you think the Ranger is overpowered, why not make him take EWP and then have him lose feats at 6, 12, 18 and get the rest of the bonuses he wants except have the ranger skill list but only 4 skill points per level. As I see it now he's just trying to cheese himself with this, especially the certain EWP spiked chain, but i bet he has a certain character concept which is good. I'm a firm believer that no Core Class when using just Core materials is broken, although some may be more powerful at times than others.
Geethree 06-24-04, 01:03 AM	Some of those points are a bit flawed. More hit points is always welcome but even if he had access to Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency he wouldn't use them, ditto for Tower Shield Proficiency.He can't use them so don't make it sound like an advantage. The fact that the ranger has limited armor capabilities (and so will have a relatively poor AC compared to the fighter) is a problem. And I wont subtract those 4 feats either as lacking them is not detrimental to the Ranger class.That's unfair to the fighter. Not being able to use heavy armor is a restriction. It is a penalty. As such, it should be counted. Furthermore, converting everything to feats is not a perfect science. If we're going to use an abstract measurement system like that, I'd prefer to use Haldrik's. According to him, the ranger is only slightly better than the fighter. Say what you want, but the ranger isn't broken. Most people will tell you that the fighter is simply underpowered.
JMark 06-24-04, 02:39 AM	I know this is not in line with the original topic of the thread, but since it has taken another direction I just wanted to add my 0.02$. It is true that the ranger has a lot more abilities than the fighter, but I think it is very hard to make an accurate conversion of abilities into feats. Even if you manage to do this, how do you make up for the versatility and many choices that the fighter has? The ranger's choices are very few, but the fighter has the option of going in several directions (and even several different directions at the same time).
Kintara 06-24-04, 06:50 PM	Bonus feats are not equal to set feats in value because bonus feats can be tailored to your particular build. I think fighters could use a boost, but rangers are not overpowered. What fighters really need are later level enticements. The Complete Warrior, and other books that introduce fighter feats, help strengthen the fighter, but it still needs more enhancement. Don't use the fighter as the measuring stick for melee classes. The Ranger is not overpowered in comparison to the Paladin, Druid, Cleric, Monk, or (arguably) the other core classes. So, find a solution for the fighter, not the other way around. Of course, I got off track, as your initial build really does improve the fighter, even if it wasn't your intention. If you want your players to play fighters, then think up some good abilities for later on. The Classes board discusses this sort of thing all the time.
The_Mighty_Mintzy 06-28-04, 11:58 PM	If you guys really want "variant fighters", check out Dragon #310, pages 33 to 39. Hey, Screwup907 There is a good variant about a spiked chain wielding fighter, I think you will like it, especially the special abilities.
Khazra Reborn 07-03-04, 07:59 AM	None of the classes are really broken. At first level the fighter may even be the best (when casters suck) due to 2 feats (3 if human). 3 feats make up so much of a character (it is almost half of those which other playersselect ). And this is where it begins to equal up, there are feats out there which i rate as being a lot better then the ranger abilities. Yeah, you have taken into account weapon focus etc. but have you taken a look at the weapon style & the tactical feats in CW? They give you 3 abiities per feat! There isn't a must be fighter X to get this feat but most need at least 2 feats to qualify, while others have 4 or more which means that fighters are going to find it alot easier to qualify for. They are extremely good feats in there. Shock trooper combined with combat brute results in scary Power attacks. Other powerful feats, rarely taken by other classes are the EWPs & improved X, especially improved trip.
elindred 07-03-04, 01:04 PM	Originally posted by screwup907 Hey just trying to get some opinions on whether or not these changes to the fighter class would be good for a player in my group. What he wants to do is drop the fighters hit die down to a d8, drop the shield and heavy armor proficiencies, and instead pick up another good save, the skills of a ranger, and automatic proficiency with the spiked chain. Any input would be good here, that's less of a fighter -variant- and more pining the dm for getting exact abilities tailored to his gaming needs. tell him to play a ranger or a barbarian.
Irv 07-03-04, 10:20 PM	Why don't you just have him cross class a 3.0 ranger with a 3.5 fighter or a fighter with a rouge? I know it isn't the best but I am sure he can come up with some combanation that is close to what he wants.
Haldrik 07-03-04, 10:50 PM	Screwup: What he wants to do is: drop the fighters hit die down to a d8, drop the shield and heavy armor proficiencies, and instead pick up another good save, the skills of a ranger, and automatic proficiency with the spiked chain. I was about to suggest what would be a fair trade ... but on second thought ... The Fighter is the weakest of all the base classes, IMHO. I think he can have what he wants and still be balanced. Saving throws are hard to acquire, but they are not powerful at all. (Even the Paladin's Divine Grace is not overpowered!) One Exotic Weapon Proficiency. This is powerful, but thinkable. (The sacrifice of Medium and Heavy Armor and Shield is close enough to the gain of the Exotic Weapon.) Skills of a Ranger. This is a big deal. If you really want to have true balance: Let him choose skills from Ranger's skill set, but only give him 2 (x2) skill points at 1st level. Then, from 2nd level on, give him a number of skill points equal to his level. For example, at 2nd level he gets 2 skill points, at 3rd level he gets 3 skill points, and so on until 20 skill points at 20th level. Let him also use skill points to buy feats. Generally 1 feat = 5 skill points. If you want to be exact, check out *What is the most powerful feat?* (in my sig) for feat costs. By giving geometrically increasing skill points, you'll help the Fighter keep pace with the spellcasting classes whose power also increases geometrically.
Zolgar 07-03-04, 11:06 PM	Can I sugest an alternative for you/him? I do not know if the PrC "Master of Chains" is in CW, but it is in S&F: Tweak the fighter, give him the weapon proffiency free in exchange for heavy armor and shield proffiencies and grant him Escape Artist, Open Lock and Intimidate as class skills. But no more skill points/level. This will allow him to, no matter what race, achive the Master of Chains prestige class on his 5th level. That's my thoughts, if he wants to be a specialist, tell him to be a ****in' specialist. Weaponmaster is another nice nifteh option.
-Defiler of Souls- 07-04-04, 12:49 AM	just say no to spiked chains....they're second in oberpoweredness only to the mercurial greatsword
elindred 07-04-04, 02:08 AM	there's no reason for him to have to make up a whole new base class for his build. start off with fighter. put his highest stat in dex. there, now he's a light fighter who'll have an excuse to shun medium/heavy armour. if he's an elf, that's even more dex, and his -2 con will simulate the lower die-type for him. now, spend one of his two feats on exotic weapon: spiked chain, and the other on weapon finesse. now he's really a light fighter. if he wants better saves he can work up to getting a prestige class that grants better saves. kensai's a good one.