Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ainaelin 04-06-04, 09:42 AM	Hi! Some people (and I'm one of them) do not like the Favoured Classes (FCs) as they are in the Core rules. Here is a thread fo you to suggest ideas of replacement for the system of FCs. Should the Races be more powerful in their FC, should they be more volatile, should the system favour single-classing in the FC, or should it encourage multi-classing with other classes than the FC as it is presently the case? Some suggest a bonus of XP in the FC, some others prefer a Bonus Feat or some some bonus related to the FC, which is quite close to what Wizards have done with the 3.5 Dwarf (movement in armor, treat the Dwarven Waraxe as martial weapon). What do you think? Any suggestion? I personnally think the Bonus Feat/power/ability/feature is a good idea. The best idea would be something that is useful at any level, without unbalancing the game too much. It is very difficult to do, howeveer. :rolleyes:
lancean 04-06-04, 10:06 AM	I tend to agree with the special ability idea. Why should a multiclass rogue/sorcerer be penalized if they choose a race other than halflin, human, or half elf? And why do elves make great wizards, but have penalties for being sorcerers? No, instead of favored classes, give each of the races an ability so that there is still a natural preference for certain classes, but no actual penalty for playing something different. Human - bonus feat, bonus skill points Dwarf - encumbered movement, waraxe skills Elf - they have a lot already, but they're so long lived, why not give them a free Skill Focus of their choice? Half Orc - how about free ranks in Intimidate and Survival? Half Elf - they're a mix of cultures (or cast offs from both), so why not let them choose one bonus from Human or Elf racial bonuses. (Like an elf's bow proficiency or a human's bonus feat, for example.) I'm at a loss for gnome and halfling bonuses. Anyone?
Erih, Shadowdweller 04-06-04, 11:03 AM	Half Elf - they're a mix of cultures (or cast offs from both), so why not let them choose one bonus from Human or Elf racial bonuses. (Like an elf's bow proficiency or a human's bonus feat, for example.) Thats going to be hard, that one... Do I want the feat and effectively increase my ECL to +1 without any penalties or do I want to be able to fire a lousy bow? Oh, its hard, so very hard.
lancean 04-06-04, 11:16 AM	Thats going to be hard, that one... Do I want the feat and effectively increase my ECL to +1 without any penalties or do I want to be able to fire a lousy bow? Oh, its hard, so very hard. Heh. Well, it IS a no brainer for most people, unless you're playing a class that can't use a bow normally. Let's face it, for your first 4 levels or so, a longbow is more useful to a wizard than Magic Missile is. So there's a case for it. It's just not a very BIG case. :rolleyes:
Szatany 04-06-04, 01:52 PM	What do you think? Any suggestion? I personnally think the Bonus Feat/power/ability/feature is a good idea. The best idea would be something that is useful at any level, without unbalancing the game too much. It is very difficult to do, howeveer. How about those? (just a suggestions from top of my head) Whenever a character gains level in favored class, he gains following benefits: Barbarians: When you roll for hit points when advancing in barbarian level, if you roll 11 or less, you gain 1 extra hit point. Clerics: You gain 1 faith point when advancing in cleric levels. You can spend 1 faith point to increase caster level or DC of domain spell you cast by one, or increase turning check by 3 or turning damage by 2. You cannot spend more than one faith point per round. Faith points replenish when your spells do. Rogues: You gain 1 extra skill point when advancing in rogue levels. Wizards: You gain 1 wizardry ponit when advancing in wizard levels. You can spend 1 wizardry point to increase caster level or DC of wizard spell you cast by one, or spend 3 points to reduce cost of applying metamagic feat by one level. You cannot spend more than one wizardry point per round, and you cannot use more than 3 wizardry points to reduce cost of metamagic feat. Wizardry points replenish when your spells do. What do you think ?
TieraStarr 04-07-04, 03:41 AM	Here's my suggestion - moved from this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189126) thread. Favoured Class XP bonus suggestion Firstly, ditch multiclassing penalties - I never liked them anyway, and with the proliferation of Prestige Classes they are all but moot. When starting in your favoured class, you start with 100 XP. When advancing in your favoured class, you gain 100 XP per class level. Since humans and half-elves consider their highest level class their favoured class, they always gain this benefit when advancing a class to a level they don't have in any other class. Thus a human Rog2/Wiz2 will gain the 3rd level favoured class benefit if advancing to Rog3/Wiz2 or Rog2/Wiz3. If he then advances the other class to 3rd level also, he will not gain it again. For a more complex option, allow advacement when you are the bonus XP only shy of your level. Thus a 2nd level elf wizard with 2700 XP can advance to third level wizard because the bonus 300 XP will push him over 3k XP. However, if he wants to pick up any other class he must wait until he earns 3k XP instead. The following quotes are what prompted me to come up with this: Ahnehnois: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2676573#post2676573) How about a favored class variant that actually makes sense. Think about the current one. Elf's favored class is wizard. So elven wizards are better wizards, right? No, they're better at multiclassing out of wizard. BaronVonStevie: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2775579#post2775579) TOTALLY. If you really think about it the "favored class" feature of a race is pretty misleading. You don't want to concentrate on that class. .. more like you want to dabble in that class. Doesn't sound "favored" at all. Elendur: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2794801#post2794801) How about an XP bonus, say 10%, while in a favored class? That would encourage characters to stay in the class. Just throwing stuff out there. ====================== Szatany's ideas have merit, but he has only tackled four out of 11 classes. Getting balanced options for all classes is rather difficult. ====================== I wonder if such a benefit would be enough to encourage someone to stay with a core class instead of a Prestige Class.
Ainaelin 04-07-04, 06:45 AM	Szatany, I like your ideas. Not too unbalancing in my opinion, but attractive enough and they would justify the reputation for the Elves' reputation as wizards, the Orcs' rep. for being tough, and so on....
Ainaelin 04-07-04, 06:47 AM	TierraStar, it is actually that thread that made me start this one. ;)
Lotus Crane 04-07-04, 07:01 AM	I personally don't like this idea, it's a dangerous line of thinking. If you give too much of a bonus for taking a race's favored class, that's only going to force players to play the most stereotypical characters imaginable. I mean, if you're going to gain exp 10% faster, or get extra skills points, or bonus feats, you'd have to be an idiot not to play your favored class. And then that's going to be mean that 90% of all elves are going to be wizards, 90% of all halflings are going to be rogues, which will make things very boring and cliche very quickly. The 10% of elves who are unique and flavorful enough to be swashbucklers, or the 10% of halflings who are unique and flavorful enough to be paladins, sure everybody will say "ooh, how interesting." And then those characters will be grossly underpowered compared to the rest of the cookie-cutter party. Sorry, but these suggestions aren't empowering, they're debilitating. It's not right to call something a bonus when it mostly just punishes everybody else who doesn't fit neatly into the picture. Sure the current favored class system isn't ideal, but this new proposed one is even worse. I hope saying something like this doesn't violate the CoC, but I have to say it anyway: this is the most fascist theory I've ever read regarding D&D. I know that there's a big difference between real-life and D&D races (D&D races are actually distinct species, whereas real-life races are just mere ethnicities, in fact "race" shouldn't even apply to the different cultures of humanity if you're at all scientific), but still, this is just too much. If stuff like this was actually in the rules, you would never seen an elf who wasn't a wizard, and you would never seen a wizard who wasn't an elf. That's insanity, and it's crippling. It would choke the life out of D&D. The elf doesn't need some special exp bonus for being a wizard, to be among the best racial choices for wizard. Do you know why? Because he has free proficiency with rapiers and longbows. FREE PROFICIENCY WITH RAPIERS AND LONGBOWS! Do you know just how AMAZING that is for a wizard? No need to multi-class into fighter, no need to waste a precious feat on it. Combined with their racial Dex bonus, and that's a MUCH more survivable wizard than any other race, even WITH the racial Con penalty. Hell, an elven wizard could qualify for arcane archer or bladesinger, without ever having to multi-class, that's something that no other race's wizard could do! Please, PLEASE sit down, think about what you were just about to do, and then stop. If 4th edition takes races and their favored class benefits even halfway to the point you were going, I swear I'll never play it. I'm not trying to offend you, I'm not calling you bad, immoral, incompotent, or stupid. I know you want something more special out of this entire "favored class" thing. But please, this is just too much, it's misguided enthusiasm. The races are already ideal for their favored classes, they don't need a huge additional artifical boost. Sometimes enough is enough. Just please stop, before being "special" kills diversity. If you really want real freedom, then fine, feel free to get rid of multi-class penalties altogether, but please do not give races additional special bonuses for taking their favored class, because the races already have abilities best suited to their favored class, giving additional abilities only when they take their favored class, is denying them rational free choice. Stop it here, please!
The Master Weaver Is Warped 04-07-04, 07:34 AM	I'm with Lotus Crane, though I would not have said it so vehemently. I would like to see less rail roading of players into archtype characters. I'd propose the following. No favored classes. All races apply the human rules. The first class they take is their favored class. Only the third base class incurs the XP penalty, (as if multiclassing power dilution wasn't bad enough.) Further more, I will do away with the normal racial ability ajustments. Every player, regardless of race, upon character creation chooses either a +2/-2 to the ability scores of their choice, or the "human" package of an extra feat and skill points. "Oh My Gods, a clumsy elf Cleric is hanging out with a sexy dwarven Bard? What is the D&D world coming too?"
jedi8187 04-07-04, 07:49 AM	I say just do away with favored class altogether(and the XP penalties). The favored classes never made sense to me, I mean obviously if someone doesn't take a favored class its not favored to them now is it.
Wharin 04-07-04, 08:22 AM	wow... maybe i am the only schmuck that appreciates the favored class rules. That said, it IS a pain in the butt, but i appreciate the need for it. There are certain things that just come naturally to certain races. Does that mean that EVERYONE is what their favored class dictates? Not really, but it does make sense that most dwarves have SOME military background (trans. a level or two in fighter), even if they are wizards. It makes sense that even a halfling Paladin might have a level or two in rogue. Why? because its just that frickin' common for them to take, because their soceity dictates that its just that normal for those professions to pop up. On the other hand, if you allow people to just multiclass however they want (and not be careful) they would just strain themselves too thin... They become the JACK of all trades, the master of none. Again, yeah it IS a pain in the butt, but I suck it up.
Ainaelin 04-07-04, 09:30 AM	No offense meant, and no offense taken ;) However, I do not agree with you guys. I think the idea of a Favored Class is good, but as it is, it may try to encompass different things into one. 1 - some races are better at some things than other races. Elves have a way with magic, they feel it around them in a way no other common races do. I mean they are better with MAGIC, which does not mean that they should be better fighters when they have the Wizard Class :rolleyes: It has little to do with their long life-span, but with a close relationship with the flow of Magic. Many people therefore think they should be Sorcerers, not Wizards, but that is another debate. 2- most members of a race tend to belong to a Class. They are not better at it than other races, but it's just that most members of the Race belong to that Class. For instance Half-Orcs tend to be Barbarians. They are no better (except for being stronger) at being a Barbarian than a human (say a Uuthgard from the FR). The concept of FC in D&D 3.0 & 3.5 tries to make one thing of those two, and is much closer to the second one than the first, probably for balancing reasons. They eventually tried to give another option towards the first concept with PrCs, by giving Elves PrCs that allowed them to be Arcane Archers or Arcane Fighters (Bladesingers), but still, Elves are no better with magic than Humans are. Actually, some things are very good with some races. Dwarves have abilities than help them being better fighters, Halflings ARE better Rogues than most. But they didn't do anything with the Elves. Even Gnomes have a +2 to Saves Vs illusions and a +1 to the DC of their Illusion spells. Elves are immune to sleep and have a +2 Vs. Enchantments, but nothing to improve their capacities with magic. Actually, writing this post makes me realize that the main problem lies with Elves, maybe Half-Orcs and not the other races... :embarrass
PSM 04-07-04, 11:12 AM	I've been having a similiar problem with the Favored Class structure too. The reason for my disapproval is that to me (and my friends) we have always seen the elf as being the consummate ranger, not a wizard. To remedy this we simply changed Favored Class to be based on culture instead of Race. So certian elf societies are more apt to produce rangers than wizards. This method isn't that hard to apply because quite a few racial features are based not on race but culture. WOTC has a horrible time differentiating between the two. I'm sure an elf isn't born knowing how to shoot a bow. Nor is a dwarf genetically able to know if a stone is natural or worked. Although, I wouldn't suggest this method to everyone it might provide an alternate solution for you. Plus, it could provide some nice opportunities for role playing. I would love to see a dwarven society that has either Monk or Bard as their favored class. Just my two cents.
Ainaelin 04-07-04, 11:55 AM	Actually, PSM, and even if it is not in the Core Rules, Wizards have made differences between races and cultures. The FR give some "sub-races" (ie. cultures) with different abilities
PSM 04-07-04, 01:14 PM	I'm sorry. I'm not making myself clear. What I was trying to state is that WOTC never creates a new culture from a core race without changing their physical appearance (except for humans). That's why they are called "sub-races". I'm suggesting a less dramatic change in that the culture determine favored class. If the DM wanted to change their physical characteristics too then so be it. Alot of the differences between the core and sub-races are usually minor anyway only involving skin, hair and height. It was just a suggestion to remove the xp penalties a non favored race would receive for multiclassing.
JohnS 04-07-04, 01:21 PM	The idea behind multi-classing penalties is to keep people from taking one or two levels in a class just to gain some of the front-loaded benefits of that class. You can multiclass as any race without penalties if you just keep the levels of your two or three classes balanced. Favored classes is an exception to the rule which adds to the flavor of a particular race. That's all the favored class rule is meant to do. So, every halfling can have a level in rogue without having to pursue the rogue forever. If I want to play a halfling wizard, I can go ahead and start out as a 1st level rogue to gain the skill ranks, etc. and then take my next 19 levels in wizard without penalty. I don't think most people appreciate the point behind multiclassing XP penalties, and therefore don't understand the point behind favored classes. If you want to do something interesting with favored classes, shake them up - make wizard the favored class of dwarfs and bard the favored class of halflings, etc. Now you've done something to individualize the races of your world without unbalancing the game. Anyhow - just my 2-cents worth.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 04-07-04, 05:17 PM	Originally posted by Ainaelin 2- most members of a race tend to belong to a Class. They are not better at it than other races, but it's just that most members of the Race belong to that Class. For instance Half-Orcs tend to be Barbarians. They are no better (except for being stronger) at being a Barbarian than a human (say a Uuthgard from the FR). No, most members of any race are commoners. Most adventurers of a race are a particular class as favored class rules are now. For me this doesn't make much sense. Adventurers have skills above the level of their hometown mates. But is everyone in town who is above average, above average in the same way? No. Secondly, adventurers are travelers. They rarely stick around and just train members of their home town. It would be purely a matter of chance, which kind of adventurer would decide to retire in any particular place. If the training avaliable is not suited to the future adventurer's skills, they leave and find someone who can train them, regardless of race. Barbarian is the only class you could possibly make a sound case against this reasoning. I would also rule that you have to start as a barbarian, you can't pick this class up later. Player: Hey, I'm an elf with 10 levels of wizard, but I need a bit of help in the hit point and fort save department. I'm going to take a level of Barbarian. There is not an XP penalty, so I'll do that. DM If, in the next 30 seconds, can you think of one good in game reason why your wizard elf who has spent his entire life learning to concentrate and control his mind and the forces of magic would suddenly throw that away to go into a "screaming bloody frenzy," (PH pg. 25) becoming reckless and less able to defend yourself, and unable to cast the spells you have worked so hard to learn, I'll let you. 1,2,3,4... Player: uh... DM 7, 8, 9... Player: Wait a minute, I'm thinking. DM No, I said 30 seconds, 27, 28, 29, 30. Player: but... DM I didn't think so. You can pick up a level fighter, if you must multiclass. edit: damn those filters are strick.
Ainaelin 04-08-04, 04:44 AM	Originally posted by The Master Weaver Is Warped No, most members of any race are commoners. Most adventurers of a race are a particular class as favored class rules are now. True; I meant adventurers of a same race, but I took the hort way and just said "members". I stand corrected in words, but the meaning remains. ;) [...]Barbarian is the only class you could possibly make a sound case against this reasoning. I would also rule that you have to start as a barbarian, you can't pick this class up later. Player: Hey, I'm an elf with 10 levels of wizard, but I need a bit of help in the hit point and fort save department. I'm going to take a level of Barbarian. There is not an XP penalty, so I'll do that. DM If, in the next 30 seconds, can you think of one good in game reason why your wizard elf who has spent his entire life learning to concentrate and control his mind and the forces of magic would suddenly throw that away to go into a "screaming bloody frenzy," (PH pg. 25) becoming reckless and less able to defend yourself, and unable to cast the spells you have worked so hard to learn, I'll let you. 1,2,3,4... Player: uh... DM 7, 8, 9... Player: Wait a minute, I'm thinking. DM No, I said 30 seconds, 27, 28, 29, 30. Player: but... DM I didn't think so. You can pick up a level fighter, if you must multiclass. edit: damn those filters are strick. It took me about 2 seconds to figure out something. My Elf wizard spends a couple of weeks among the Barbarians we helped against the demon in the last adventure and, being curious as he is, is fascinated by their way of life, he decides not to use his magic for as long as he stays with them, since they are uncomfortable with his powers, and lives the way they do. He even partakes to a Rothé hunt and develops Wilderness Lore... ***************************** What does my honourable DM think? :)
The Master Weaver Is Warped 04-08-04, 06:42 AM	Originally posted by Ainaelin It took me about 2 seconds to figure out something. My Elf wizard spends a couple of weeks among the Barbarians we helped against the demon in the last adventure and, being curious as he is, is fascinated by their way of life, he decides not to use his magic for as long as he stays with them, since they are uncomfortable with his powers, and lives the way they do. He even partakes to a Rothé hunt and develops Wilderness Lore... ***************************** What does my honourable DM think? :) DM: So you left the party for two weeks? Uh huh, well then HOW THE HELL DID YOU GET THE XP NEEDED TO LEVEL? You have been with the party on the way back to the Capital. There has be 2 encounters since the bloody demon. Aside from the fact that you can't be in two places at once, you are going to leave your friends who you have traveled with for the past 3 years, to stay with the savages? What makes you think the party won't feel deserted, replace you, and reject you as a fickle, undependable elf, when you return? or DM: What's your STR? and CON? Player: 8 and 10. DM: The men laugh at you, saying no one so puny and weak could help with the hunt. They leave you with the women to cook and take care of the babies. The women curse you as useless, because you are constantly in their way. You catch a miserable cold, and can't breathe through your nose for 2 weeks. :smirk: Want to go back to the Capital now and catch up with your friends and spend some time in the library?
Ainaelin 04-08-04, 08:33 AM	Of course, the DM can always refuse whatever explanation the player is willing to find and refuse flatly that the player multiclasses, refusing in the same time that a player has the character he wants... So in a fewer words, he refuses the player to have fun... (I know it's somewhat far-fetched, the general feeling is there) OR, the DM can accept to change a few things in his campain, allowing his players to train in unexpected directions, if they so wish, allowing everybody to get the fun they're here for... Besides, that level 10 Elven wizard is probably more powerful than an AVERAGE first level Barbarian, even in sheer melee combat, since he's got a better (+5) BAB, more HP, and probably a better AC. Wanna fight?
The Master Weaver Is Warped 04-08-04, 09:06 AM	True, true and true. However, my point is, if you are going to argue for favored classes based on culture and/or genetics, then you must expect to adhere to that reasoning later, when it comes to multiclassing. Somethings are not going to be possible by that same reasoning. In our above case, the barbarians are not going to "play nice" with the elven wizard. It goes counter to everything they have been bred and raised to believe. No matter how greatful they maybe to the wizard for getting rid of the demon, or how congenial the elf is, they are not going to trust him. In a melee fight, if the elf wins, the loser is going to say he cursed him. He has to, to save face with the tribe. Now the elf is in big trouble. He's either going to have to run and/or kill some of them with magic to save his own skin. Any elf, smart enough to cast spells, is going to know this and not stick around. Characters live in a larger world than what is on the stat sheets. If, as a DM, you structure this world to include the favored class concept, you are limiting your players, in the very ways I have presented above. Gee, have I effectively played Devil's Advocate. I rarely do that well. As I said earlier, I will remove favored classes from my game. I don't like the limits it imposes.