Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nusaka_Irosas 06-21-06, 01:38 AM	I have a few short questions, if someone could help out. I'm starting a game at level 10, as a wizard, never played one before. 1. How do I pick what spells that I have learned? Do I just pick whatever spells I want from the player's handbook. When I level up, how do I get new spells to pick from my spellbook? 2. Is there a chart somewhere for extra spells per day that I get for having a high INT score? 3. How exactly do metamagic feats work? Thanks for the help anyone. I really want to play, but can't quite figure these out.
Colonel Talarei 06-21-06, 01:41 AM	How do I pick what spells that I have learned? Do I just pick whatever spells I want from the player's handbook. When I level up, how do I get new spells to pick from my spellbook? Depends on if you are going for support for others or blasting the enemies Is there a chart somewhere for extra spells per day that I get for having a high INT score? p 8 players handbook
Nusaka_Irosas 06-21-06, 02:13 AM	How do I pick what spells that I have learned? Do I just pick whatever spells I want from the player's handbook. When I level up, how do I get new spells to pick from my spellbook? Depends on if you are going for support for others or blasting the enemies sorry for not being as clear as I could. what I meant was, when I am picking what spells are in my spellbook, the ones that I prepare each day, can I just pick whatever spells I want from any sourcebooks? Do I have to "learn" them from somewhere before I can prepare them? Also, on pg.8 of the handbook, I read that chart as a bonus to how many spells that you know, not spells per day. So I add that to how many spells I know in total, that I can pick from when preparing my spells per day? Thanks again!
periscope 06-21-06, 02:14 AM	You just pick whichever spells you want if your of high enough level to learn them. One thing to think of is "Is there another arcane caster in the pary?" If so that can influence your choices. If there is you'll need to discuss which spells you guys want to be able to cast otherwise you might end up overlapping each other (though if both of you knew fireball and had wands of fireball, you could reek unholy vengeance upon thine enemies [think "I love the smell of napalm in the morning] :D ) Though for a first level spell, if you have CA, I would recommend one of the orb spells (I like orb of sound and acid since both ignore the hardness of objects and deal full damage). Another thing is "Do I want to specialize?" This can really influence your decisions. Personally I dont like it but if you do, go for it. By the way, have you picked a race yet? if not I would suggest high elf (MMI same as normal elf but -2 str +2 int) and take the first substitution level for wizard in Races of the Wild. Then I would reccomend a rat for a familiar (not only does a rat never look out of place [what city doesnt have them?] it gives you a +2 on fort saves [even better if you take the other elven substitution level] which will be hurting even more if your an elf and a wizard (bad fort+penalty to con= :mage: :shocked: :OMG! :ghosted: ).
Nusaka_Irosas 06-21-06, 03:02 AM	You just pick whichever spells you want if your of high enough level to learn them. good. Thanks for clearing that up. Those orb spells look appealing... By the way, have you picked a race yet? if not I would suggest high elf. a fine suggestion. consider it done. Alright! Now, if someone could please explain metamagic feats (and how the spell slot thing works) to me, I would be very grateful. Thanks!
Chainsaw 06-21-06, 03:11 AM	You just pick whichever spells you want if your of high enough level to learn them. Not true. You write 2 new spells of any level you can cast into your spell book every time you level and also during play you can learn spells from scrolls or another wizard's spell book or researching them. Basically you are only limited to what spells you can prepare during the day by what is already written in your spellbook. You can't just decide "hey I'm gonna prepare chain lightning today cause its written in the player's handbook" if it's not in your character's spellbook. You would have to research it or add it when you level. Now for metamagic feats... You can apply a metamagic feat to any spell you know by deciding when you are preparing spells for the day to apply it and increase the spell slot accordingly. For instance, let's say you decided to prepare a silent magic missile spell. Normally magic missile is a level 1 spell thus takes up a level 1 spell slot for what you can cast during the day. The description of silent spell says it takes a spell slot 1 higher so you instead prepare that magic missile as a 2nd level spell and it uses up a second level slot for the day.
Drascin 06-21-06, 03:42 AM	Alright! Now, if someone could please explain metamagic feats (and how the spell slot thing works) to me, I would be very grateful. Thanks! Ok, no problem. By "how the spell slot thing works" do you mean you've never played a prepared caster, and thus don't know how the spell slot system works? Just in case, I'll start there. The Vancian system assigns each character a number of "slots", depending on a lot of things: level, class, key score (in this case int). Each slot is a place where you can "store" spells, so to say, of the appropiate level. You can refill those slots whenever you prepare spells, which you can only do after 8 hours of rest. For example, say we have a wizard with 3 lvl 3 slots. He can prepare 3 level 3 spells, in any combination: fly, fireball, and lightning bolt, for example; or three copies of the same spell, if you just know you'll need it very much. And when he casts them, they're lost until he can rest again. Oh, and remember, if you just know you're going to need more of a low level spell than slots you have, you can fill higher level slots with lower level spells, allowing you to prepare rays of enfeeblement in lvl 2 slots if you want (this does not increase the DC of the saves) Metamagic feats are feats that allow you to modify your spells to make them more effective, but at the cost of a higher level slot. For example, if you want to go sniper with magic missiles and decide to use Enlarge Spell on them, a feat that requires a slot one level higher than normal, you must spend slots of lvl 2 or higher to prepare them. That is a short summary. If something was unclear or you need anything else, just call :) .
SamiPeikko 06-21-06, 05:18 AM	A word of warning: ask your DM about what spells you can take. He might forbid some books or some individual spells. Also if you want to start with more spells known, you could buy spell scrolls with your starting money, and also use your starting money to copy them into your spell book. Again get a permission from your DM; he might rule that some spell scrolls are not easily available. One thing to remember about metamagic feats is that they do not raise the _level_ of the spell, only the level of the slot the spell takes up (exeption: Heighten). That maximized Fireball is still 3rd level spell, and the save DC is still the save DC for 3rd level spell. With 10th level wizard you are in trouble. It would be much easier to start from level 1-3 and get used to your spells gradually. Read all spell descriptions carefully paying attention to details like: can they target objects or not, are they death effects, is it ray, touch or "targeted" and so on. Try to keep a good selection of low level utility spells (those that do not depend on caster level) as scrolls. The most common comment from wizard when asked for any spell is "I have it - but not today".
belthazzar1113 06-21-06, 08:08 AM	also, if your starting a tenth level wizard you should probly think about PrCs. you can either leave at 6 or 11, depending on feat choice and preference, but most people tend to PrC out of wizard at some level. And if your going to be level 10 there are still plenty of classes that lose none or only one level of spell casting. it might even be advantageous to take a class that has half spell casting to bump down the number of spells you need to worry about and concentrate on some special abilities. mabey your doing base only, but its definitly something to thinka bout for 11th level since if you don't pick up a prc at that point your going ot miss those tenth level prc abilities.
Nusaka_Irosas 06-21-06, 12:59 PM	You write 2 new spells of any level you can cast into your spell book every time you level and also during play you can learn spells from scrolls or another wizard's spell book or researching them. but this is limited by a maximum amount of spells a wizards of x level can know, right? Drascin: Thanks so much for the description. I understand that part now. :D With 10th level wizard you are in trouble. It would be much easier to start from level 1-3 and get used to your spells gradually. lol, I know that would be the best way to do it, as you are right, it would be much easier. This group plays an ongoing campaign, and I've only ever played once before. I have a decent handle on most of the game, but its play at level ten with this group, or don't play D&D. This is why I ask. Thanks for the help, Samipeikko! Try to keep a good selection of low level utility spells (those that do not depend on caster level) as scrolls. The most common comment from wizard when asked for any spell is "I have it - but not today". excellent advice. I will definately do this. also, if your starting a tenth level wizard you should probly think about PrCs. Another good idea. Only 10 levels left, right? Might as well... what are some good ones? Thanks again everyone, this is all good stuff.
ajmastrean 06-21-06, 02:20 PM	No one has mentioned anything about spells that this Wizard would have reasonably obtained from independent research, scroll copying, or other sources non-level-based. A DM and I came up with a reasonably scaling formula for this last year... I am at work now, but can dig it up by tonight. At any rate, this is a point of serious discussion - 10 levels is a lot of time to learn new spells (not to mention the resource costs involved and subsequent hit to the PCs wealth).
Witch 06-21-06, 02:34 PM	but this is limited by a maximum amount of spells a wizards of x level can know, right? No, it isn't. Only by his amount of gold. As you see, a Wizard is not the easiest class to play. Especially when you start at level ten. No one has mentioned anything about spells that this Wizard would have reasonably obtained from independent research, scroll copying, or other sources non-level-based. A DM and I came up with a reasonably scaling formula for this last year... I am at work now, but can dig it up by tonight. At any rate, this is a point of serious discussion - 10 levels is a lot of time to learn new spells (not to mention the resource costs involved and subsequent hit to the PCs wealth). Formula? What you listed depends entirely on his amount of gold.
ajmastrean 06-21-06, 02:51 PM	You cannot base it only on the amount of gold. You have to consider that this Wizard has most likely been adventuring, healing, shopping, eating, sleeping, and a number of other things that take time. Gold is not the limiting factor in how many spells he can research, copy, or otherwise obtain (from non-level based sources). Then there is the time it takes to actually research/copy and a chance of failure for each of these checks. It is hard to build a higher level Wizard because of these considerations. So, I reiterate, a DM and I came up with a decently approriate level based formula to determine how many spells an average Wizard would have learned in these ways by level X.
Drascin 06-21-06, 04:19 PM	Drascin: Thanks so much for the description. I understand that part now. :D Always pleased to help :) Another good idea. Only 10 levels left, right? Might as well... what are some good ones?. There are quite a few interesting classes, but it all depends on your concept. Seek the one that is more akin to the idea you have of the character. Only one advice, first: caster levels are EXTREMELY important. No, even more than that. As a mage, the only thing you have is your magic. Therefore, any hit to your spellcasting better be for some important reason. Anyway, for raw power I'd suggest the Incantatrix. If you prefer utility, Mage of the Arcane Order has proven handy. And while I've never seen one in action, I've heard Initiate of the Seven Veils is huge as well. If you tell us more about the character, maybe someone here can find something that fits better.
Puca 06-21-06, 04:49 PM	Gold is not the limiting factor in how many spells he can research, copy, or otherwise obtain (from non-level based sources). Then there is the time it takes to actually research/copy and a chance of failure for each of these checks.Yeah, it is. As a general rule, copying a spell from a borrowed spell book costs 50 gp per level, and the act of writing it in costs 100 gp per page. So a simple 150 x spell-level will work for a total gp, which should then be deducted from your starting wealth. At level 10, you should have for free: All cantrips 5 + starting Intelligence modifier of first level spells. 4 level-two spells 4 level-three spells 4 level-four spells and 4 level five spells. To be fair, anything after that should be deducted from your starting wealth at the above 150 gp per spell level. There is also a feat in CA called Collegiate Wizard that increases the number of spells you get for free at every level. Starting where you are, that would be a very good choice. Of course, you might have a really nice DM who will just give you a bunch for free. If so, shut up and take the free stuff. But, you got Scribe Scroll for free, so scrolls of spells you already have in your book should calculated at ˝ cost. Wizards should have a lot of scrolls available. (The same should hold true for any other item creation feats, such as Craft Wondrous Item, which is a very good choice. You have to work closely with your DM on this. XP costs should also still apply, which is why I think it is better to start characters with a number of experience points, rather than at a specified level.) Metamagic: Every spell has a spell-level 0-9. As a prep caster, you have a certain number of “slots” at each level of spell you can cast. (At your starting level, you have slots for 4 zero-level spells, 4 first, four second, four third, 3 fourth, and 2 fifth. This doesn’t include bonus slots youll get for having a high Int.) Each day, you decide which of the many spells in your book you can put in your available slots. Metamagic makes a spell better in a specific way (more powerful, bigger, different energy, longer duration, whatever.) When you apply a metamagic to a spell, you prepare it in a higher slot. It still functions just like normal, except it is in a higher slot and modified as per your meta feat. Mage Armor example: Mage Armor is a level-one spell, and it goes in any one of your 4 (plus bonuses) level-one slots. When you cast it, it works exactly as it is described in the PHB. But, lets say youve got the Extend Spell feat and decide to apply it to that spell. Now, it is prepared in a one of your 4 (plus bonuses) level-two slots. It works in all other way just like the spell is described, except that it now lasts for 2 hours per caster-level instead of just one hour per caster-level.
ajmastrean 06-21-06, 06:04 PM	Of course, under normal circumstances, research is limited by gold and then, implicitly, by time. But we are talking about building 10 levels worth of spells earned by non-level based means that the player never actually played. This is not simply a matter of subtracting some gold from the player. I could, under that rule, spend all my 10th level starting gold on spells and not own as much as a walking stick. This does not emulate the experience of a wizard actually played from 1st to 10th level. That wizard has other responsibilities and costs incurred through adventuring (which this player has simply not played yet). I am saying that there should be some reasonable limit as to how many spells this wizard has copied, researched, borrowed, whatever... because we have to simulate the fact that this wizard has attained lvl 10 through normal adventuring play.
Tony Vargas 06-21-06, 08:27 PM	The wiz is probably one of the hardest classes to play, though the rewards for all that work can be high. Even though you're starting at 10th, you still have to reverse-engineer some of the character's career to make sure you get you skill points, feats & spells 'right.' For instance, if you use your level-ups at 4th and 8th to boost your INT (and started with an even INT), then you have 26 + original INT bonus *13 + 3 skill points (or 7 if you started with an odd INT). If you want to take both Craft Wand and Craft Arms & Armor (both requiring CL 5), you couldn't have taken them with your first few feats, you'd have to have done so with your bonus feat at 5th, or later. That sorta thing. So, you have to 'walk through' your 10 levels, picking skills, stat points and feats as you go, to make sure the maximums and preqs all work out. Then you get to spend your gold - I think it's 49k for 10th level. The immediate question that comes up is "Can you use craft feats to make items?" If your DM says yes, those items still cost exp. If he's starting everyone at exactly 10th level, that means you're actually 9th level, if you make so much as a single scroll for 1 exp. You'll hit 10th pretty quick, but, still, it's a consideration, since it affects what you can make, and it means you don't have that 10th level bonus feat yet (if it was going to be an item creation feat, for instance, that can make a big difference). Of course, then the question becomse, if you're 9th, why do you have 10th level gold? So, your DM might start everyone out part way into 10th, or he may just rule that, even though you may have used item creation in the past, things worked out so that, now, you're 10th level, and have 49kgp of stuff, even if some of which you made yourself. The other demand on you gold, of course, is your spellbook. You need to pay to learn spells (for instance, buying a scroll of a spell gives you the opportunity to learn it, but you can also pay a fee to other wizards to gain access to a spell in thier books), and to scribe them into your book. One good alternative is a Blessed Book, that simply costs up front. You may also want to pay scribing cost more than once, to have 'backup' copies of your spellbook (or, at least, of some of the spells in it). You're not required to put all your spells in one book, either. Of course, picking your free spells (see Puca's post, above) and those you want to learn/scribe isn't easy. There are a lot of spells you could know just in the PH (the sorc/wiz list is big) and oodles more in suplements. Since you could learn any of those spells, it behooves you to read through all of them and pick out the most suitable ones. You should then become very familiar with all the spells you know, as you'll have to pick which ones to prepare each day, and be ready to use them as effectively as possible.
Tramp4life 06-21-06, 08:31 PM	Has anyone mentioned if this is your first time playing a wizard (even if it's not your first time playing D&D), you shouldn't start at lvl 10. You won't know how to play the character. Start lower (level 1-5) or play something simple.
Nusaka_Irosas 06-21-06, 08:48 PM	No, it isn't. Only by his amount of gold. You have to consider that this Wizard has most likely been adventuring, healing, shopping, eating, sleeping, and a number of other things that take time. I am saying that there should be some reasonable limit as to how many spells this wizard has copied, researched, borrowed, whatever... because we have to simulate the fact that this wizard has attained lvl 10 through normal adventuring play. As a general rule, copying a spell from a borrowed spell book costs 50 gp per level, and the act of writing it in costs 100 gp per page. So a simple 150 x spell-level will work for a total gp, which should then be deducted from your starting wealth. So then, if there isn't really a set number cap for spells in a wizard's spellbook that he can draw from, other than whatever he decided to have written in (gp, time, and other costs), then what is the chart on page 8 of the PHB for? Extra spells per day? Thanks for all the help on metamagic. I fully understand now... wasn't as complex as I had thought.
hughman 06-21-06, 10:29 PM	So then, if there isn't really a set number cap for spells in a wizard's spellbook that he can draw from, other than whatever he decided to have written in (gp, time, and other costs), then what is the chart on page 8 of the PHB for? Extra spells per day? Thanks for all the help on metamagic. I fully understand now... wasn't as complex as I had thought. You are mixing up 3 things there, and we all are at fault for doing so. We tend to blurr some lines that are really pretty solid in the end. First thing, the wizard can have as many spells in his spellbook(s) as he has gold to spend on them. There is a limit on how many spells can fit in a single spell book, but they can always have more! (my 10th level wizard is now into his third book) Each book is only 100 pages, with each spell taking as many pages as it has spell levels, (i.e. 9 pages for a 9th level spell, 5 for a 5th level, etc.) Cantrips take a full page each. Second, you get for FREE a certain number of spells which amounts to 2 per level plus the ones you got at first level which amounts to 25+Int bonus + all cantrips. Your initial question seemed to indicate that this is your question. Starting with an elevated character I would use Puca's list and get that many of each of those levels. For the most part, you will use your Free spells to get your highest level spells, as they get real spendy real quick. Third, the Extra spells per day on Page 8 of the PHB (based on your Int) are for spells you can Memorize each day. In essence because you are smarter, you can keep more incantations in mind and un-jumbled than another person of less dizzying intellect. Those orb spells look appealing... Check with your DM how he wants to handle those spells. IF he has and uses the Spell Compendium then you want to look at those orbs in there first. They dropped the dmage for all the orbs down a full die. so those 1d8 orbs now only do 1d6 (and the sonic ones do a depressing 1d4! ) I would like to second Tony Vargas' advice about building your character level by level. Especially where skills are concerned. If you are looking at mixing up into a prestige class, it can get real easy to be putting skill points too fast or too early into skills that the character doesn't have at the time. For instance, if you have a prestige class that gives you Sleight of hand, you cant' spend much on it untill you have the new class. and then once you have it, you only have so much you can put into it, can't Just udmp max into it, cause that usually means you are putting too many into the ones you were adding to early on (rememver that the skill cap is at each and every level) As far as prestige classes, as a first time player I would take one or the more normal Prcs, just to get used to the spells and the way magic works. Off the top of my head, Elemental Savant, Argent Savant, Fate Spinner, and Mage of the Arcane Order are pretty straight forward, and will give you some flavor/flair and still let you concentrate on learning being a wizard first. Just my thoughts here, Hughman
periscope 06-21-06, 11:37 PM	If your still choosing feats? If so and you had a 13 in intelligence at 1st level take the feat Collegiate Wizard. Among its benefits, instead of only gaining 2 spells for free each time you level, you gain 4. Another feat I would suggest is improved Initiative and Improved Toughness (by level 10 you should meet the prereqs for Improved Toughness). Improved Toughness gives you a lot of bang for your buck (Extra hitpoints which wizards, especially elven wizards, cant get enough of). Improved Initiative because you will be the first targets for rouges so you gotta MOVE IT! That and when you see the BBEG it is your obligation to jump his @ss with a maximized fireball (assuming he doesnt have hostages) before he is allowed to Monologue. Prestige classes. There are 3 I would suggest. Archamage for 2 levels (one for arcane fire or master of elements and one for shape spell so you can avoid roasting your allies). Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil for superb battefield control and defense capabilities. Geometer for at least 2 levels if you dont want to go all the way. Book of geometry reduces the pages your spells require to a single page per any spell. Go for all 5 you can disable glyph spells like a rogue or even pass them without tripping them and leave them behind for enemies. You also get glyph of warding and greater glyph of warding for free.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-22-06, 12:40 AM	I'm starting a game at level 10, as a wizard, never played one before. Hmm ... ok, but it's better to start low so that all the options don't confuse you. 1. How do I pick what spells that I have learned? Do I just pick whatever spells I want from the player's handbook. When I level up, how do I get new spells to pick from my spellbook? There are two ways to get spells into your spellbook. You get two per level because you are a wizard who presumably does research. That's basically 20 spells for free, but don't forget that at 3rd level your wizard would only have been able to researh 2nd level spells. No fair filling up your spellbook with 20 3rd-level spells. (ps: take Grease, Feather Fall, and Rope Trick. Always have one of each memorised. Trust me.) You can also buy scrolls and copy them from other spellbooks. It is up to the DM to agree what spells might be "available" via this method. The DM might rule that you can't purchase necromantic scrolls, or ones more than a certain level. And you have to pay for them, and pay for silver to scribe them (50gp/lev? or is it 200?). If you are starting at lev 10, a DM will usually say "your character starts life with X gold", which you use to purchase equipment or in your case extra spells. Or the DM might rule that for a yearly fee, you can subscribe to the local wizarding library and have access to all 1st and 2nd level spells in the PH, and all you have to do is pay for silver to scribe them. Oh: and don't forget to roll the spellcraft check. You only get one attempt per level for any given spell. If you are wondering "is there any limit at all to the number of spells in your spellbook?", the spellcraft check is the thing that effectively provides that limit. 2. Is there a chart somewhere for extra spells per day that I get for having a high INT score? Table 1-1 in the player's handbook. Note that that table is about extra daily spell slots, not about extra spells in your book. 3.5 does not have a limit on spells in the book. 3. How exactly do metamagic feats work? Say you have metamagic "extend", which is +1 lev (I think). As a 10th level wiz, you can spend a 1st-level daily spell slot on a "Mage Armor" spell that goes for 10 hours, or a 2nd-level slot on "Mage Armor (Extended)" that goes for 20 hours. Either way, that's that spell slot used for the day. You can apply the feat to as many spells as you wish: you can have a Scorching Ray in a 2nd level slot and also an enhanced Scroching Ray in a 4th level slot, if you want - provided you have "enhance spell". "Sudden" metamagic feats from Complete Arcane are different. They don't take up a higher slot, but you can only use them once a day. I took "Sudden Silent" and "Sudden Still", on the basis that even if you don't use them often, they will get you out of a jam that absolutely nothing else will. I feel that metamagic ain't worth it when you can just purchase a rod.
Drascin 06-22-06, 03:19 AM	So then, if there isn't really a set number cap for spells in a wizard's spellbook that he can draw from, other than whatever he decided to have written in (gp, time, and other costs), then what is the chart on page 8 of the PHB for? Extra spells per day?. Extra slots per day, not extra spells known. The wiz can already know every spell in existance, provided he has enough time, gold, and spellbooks.