A new spin on the sorcerer. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new spin on the sorcerer. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koga:The ninja trick
02-20-04, 12:03 AM I'm going to try and convince my DM to let The Koga do this for an interesting character. Sorcerers remind me of blue mages, and as such they should have less control over what they learn. So how do you go about doing this? Dice rolls.:D

I learn a number of spells for each level I can cast equal to my charisma modifier. (I have an 18 so I learn three spells for each level I can cast.)

So, I look at the sorcerer/wizard list, count the list into a numbers starting from top to bottom, I then roll the dice and the spells I learn are that of the numbers they equal to on the dice. Sometimes lists are too big even for a d20 in which case you have to use a little math to figure out how much to minus from the overall rolls and such, but it's well worth it. If you roll the same number twice, you simply roll again. For instance, I'm a first level sorcerer. I roll six dice. Three for level zero spells, three for level one. I roll two d8 to determine which spells I learn for zero. (Once I get a sixteen I simply roll the two d8 learn that -1. Then I can learn the first spell on the list. and for level one I roll 2d20 and a d4. Then if I get 44 I simply put a -1 penalty that way I can learn the first spell. It may not seem all that random but it deffinitly works.)

Now to add even MORE spice to this already risky endevure. I invented blue magic and monster magic as feats.

Blue magic allows me to roll two additional dice to learn a spell level of my choosing. For instance say I want to learn two more level one spells, I use this feat for that.

Monster magic allows me to roll my dice and learn from a differant class list entirely. Say I want to learn some druid spells, at first level I have monster magic as a feat, so I roll off the druid list instead of my normal sorcerer/wizard list. But come level two, I will revert back to learning sorcerer/wizard spells. Thus I'm not just a spontanous druid..

I can choose to "stack" with monster magic, getting the feat now and wait till the level after this one to learn a differant list. This offers a little stradegy in the midsts of chaos magic progression.

I'm also trying to make spellcraft more intune with learning spells for the sorcerer. I don't think this makes the other spellcasters any less important. Paladins and rangers arn't even really meant to cast spells, they just do it for added flavor, clerics, druids, wizards, and bards still are required for stability, and it's not like you have much control over the spells you learn. Just some discipline via feats on how to make it a little more to your liking..

To further make sure this was unbroken, you can't simply "move on" to another list once you've learnt all the spells of that level. For instance if I learned all the zero level sorcerer/wizard spells, I can't simply jump to the cleric list. I either have to burn a feat for monster magic and learn cleric spells for that progression, or simply ignore the zero spell list and roll dice accordingly for other spells I CAN learn.

What The Koga wants to know is.. Is this broken? Overpowerd? I think it would be really fun and it just seems more sorcerer like to me. The art of chaos. ^_^
Koga:The ninja trick
02-20-04, 01:11 AM Incase that didn't make much sense all in one sitting, here's a first level character with his spell list. Assuming he has an 18 charisma and is human, I decide to gve him monster magic: druid as a feat so for this level I want him to learn druid spells and his other feat is blue magic, and I choose his two additional spells to be first level ones.

Sense there's thirteen level zero druid spells, I shall add an additional +1 to the d12 to determine what I learn. Once I get 13 I take that away and roll a normal d12 that way there's a chance I could get a 1.

Level zero spells:
Know direction.
Detect magic.
Flare.

Alright, for level one there's a fifteen druid spell list. So I'll roll a d12 and d4 and give a -1 penalty.

Level one spells:
Goodberry.
Invisibility to animals.
Obscuring mist.
Animal friendship.
Detect animals or plants.

Now next level I will go back to learning from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. At level three I can choose to get another monster magic feat and do as I did just now, or allow myself to keep learning from the sorcerer/wizard list, and the monster magic feat will let me learn from a differant class list NEXT level. But I must choose either now or one level later. So if I choose later, at level 4 when I can finnally cast level 2 spells, I will learn from whatever class list I choose, but the downside is ALL spells I'll now learn will be from that class till next level which I revert back. It's very risky, but then again, I think that's what a sorcerer is all about. :D
Koga:The ninja trick
02-20-04, 03:22 PM Yikes, The Koga DID discover a flaw in this plan that would make the sorcerer waaaaay too powerful. It seems by the old standard he'd learn bassically all spells as even if he only stayed at 18 charisma he'd still learn three spells every level of every spell level. He'd learn all spells in the player's handbook if you let him, making a wizard obselete.

So I revamped that. Now bassically it's the 3.0 sorcerer's amount of spells known x3.

Instead of nine spells the amount of zero level spells he can learn naturally is up to twenty seven.

Instead of five spells the amount of 1st level spells he can learn naturally is up to fifteen.

I discoverd that with random dice rolls, it's not exactly easy to take advantage of this vast spell knowledge, but I have buffed up the sorcerer quite a bit. Especially with my home-made feats he could very easily show up the wizard. So as an added fault (He didn't seem to have much of one really besides bad luck.) if I get a double on a dice roll (Roll a seven and I already know that spell for instance.) I do not roll again, i've lost that shot at learning a new spell. So bassically I am fully dependant on the roll of the die. It's not much, but it sets some balance I think.
Koga:The ninja trick
02-21-04, 11:17 AM Well, from The Koga's aquantinces I've gotten mixed messages.

Girls and newbs seem to like the idea.
Expirienced players don't.

Havn't gotten a DM's response yet on the matter. Just a player's point of view. Course The Koga trusts you can help turn this idea of random chaos magic into something more balanced and better if possible. ^_^d
neoanderthal
02-21-04, 04:31 PM I like the idea of randomly assigning spells - it *does* fit the concept of the sorcerer to a 'T'! :D
Here are some ideas, that strike me, but they may not be workable:

Use Charisma to alter the # of spells cast per day, but use the character's Int modifier to alter the # of spells known. This would be added to the class maximum, for the absolute maximum a particular Sorcerer could learn.

Your Monster Magic feat is interesting, but it might be a bit too powerful. You might be better served by coming up with a few spell lists that break spells into schools, but include some divine spells in these lists, too. In essence, make your own sorcerer spell lists, taking a bit from here and there. To gain a spell, the player would roll to determine the school, and then roll to select a spell from that school. It would make sorcerers unpredictable; one could never know for sure which spells he or she would likely know.

Even these ideas might be too powerful, but I'm tempted to find out myself, now :)
You've got a great idea here.
Koga:The ninja trick
02-21-04, 09:13 PM Thanks. ^_^

That does give The Koga an idea. To make things simpler. (Pelor knows we love things simple. :P ) instead of rolling the dice over a large portion page, I seperate it into the eight school categories (As the list on the player's handbook does.) and roll a d8 to see which school to roll my three chances at learning a new spell from! :D

And the monster magic feat could still work, I'd just have to keep a list with me of alphabetical order the spell and the school they belong in.

This way I'll never have to roll over a d20.
And this way it's even more of a challenge.
But I get what I want. Lots of random. ^.^
Koga:The ninja trick
02-21-04, 10:26 PM Thanks neoanderthaul, your idea really helped. ^_^

The monster magic feat still applies, but is alot less broken now.

And the blue magic feat still applies, but as with learning naturally you have to roll two d8 to see which schools you learn from. (Universal spells apply to all lists.)

If a number on the dice exceeds the number of spells on the list, just re-roll. But doubles will happen much easier now and it's overall alot sleaker and better. I applied this to the cleric's list with the blue/monster magic feats and got the following.

Natural: Divinitation.
Blue: Aburation and enchantment.

Level 0:
Detect magic.
Detect poisen.
Guidance.
Read magic.
Purify food and drink.

Level 1:
Detect evil/good/chaos/law.
Detect undead,
Comprehend languages.
Comprehend languages.
Random action.
Command.
Cure light wounds.
Obscuring mist.

The list may appear much bigger then the 3.0 sorcerer's but in actuallity come level-ups, I may prove to be unlucky and not learn all that many spells. You just never know with that many dice rolls.

Considering a 3.0 human sorcerer at level one with two feats in bonus spell will learn six level one, where as 3.K human sorcerer at level one with two feats in blue magic MAY learn twelve. It's only double. And at that I have little choice of what I learn meaning I can't pull of super combos, and there's a chance I may get really really unlucky. It's a challenge for the player, an entertaining event for the DM, a relief for newbies who don't know how to stradegize, and gives the fellow party members something to consider. The 3.K sorcerer is truly chaotic. And thus unreliable. But may prove to be of help. As you could see from the list I'd be excellent at gypsy work. But do I start focusing on feats to help my divination? Doubtful, not even this diviner knows what the future holds..

It's ceartainly not something to powergame with. But I forget The Koga lives among rules lawyers. -_-;;
Koga:The ninja trick
02-23-04, 04:13 PM Well, it took a while, but I was able to type up and seperate all the player's handbook spells into thier school catergories. The new and improved 3.K sorcerers works like this.

When learning spells naturally, he rolls a number of dice equal to his charisma modifier a number of times equal to the amount of spells a sorcerer would normally learn. For instance a level one sorcerer knows two spells at first level, if my sorcerer has an eighteen charisma, he can roll three dice two times. That's a total of six spells. Maybe..

A drawback is you must roll a d8 to determine what school to roll the spells you learn from. The list is a combination of all the spells in the player's handbook that's within a sorcerer's power to cast. (There are very few spells he couldn't use, but there are some. I left those out.) so let's say I roll the d8 and get divination. This means all the spells I learn this level will be divination. My level zero AND level one spells. Unless I apply the feat which I will explain in a minute. Side note: Universal is not an actual school of magic as said in the school specilization section. Therfor all dice rolls also add the universal school to them. So let's say there was four illussion spells that level you could learn and six universal, instead of rolling a d4 you'd roll a d10 applying universal spells to possible ones you can learn as well.

Now that that's been taken care of monster magic is the sorcerer's primary feat of choice. (The Koga likes the sound of monster magic over blue magic..) This feat allows the sorcerer to roll another d8 to determine which school he learns from and can possibly learn an additional number of spells equal to his charisma modifier. Assuming dice rolls go well for you.

This however is still somewhat broken, so as a second flaw in the sorcerer's design he learns all his spells the latest as if another class. For instance bestow curse is learned by some at level three, others level four, he learns it on the latter. If the spell could possibly be learned at a later level, the sorcerer will be the first to know about it. This slows down his power process as all the good spells take even longer then usual to obtain. And it doesn't make the wizard appear any less needed.

Strengths:
More then three times the amount of spells a 3.0 sorcerer would know. (Possibly.)

Weaknesses:
Very dependant on good luck.
Potential for good spells has been slowed down.
No choice in what spells you learn and thusly no way to maximize your character's power level.

Luckiely for The Koga the rules lawyers are players not DMs, so I may just be able to pull this guy off. :D

The Koga even dares the DM (As another player is playing a sorcerer as well.) to let him play the regular sorcerer and me my version and see how unbalanced it overall is..
neoanderthal
02-23-04, 07:37 PM It sounds like you've got a good idea there for the sorcerer - I might have to try your variant out myself :)
I'm glad some of my ideas were of use...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 02-20-04, 12:03 AM	I'm going to try and convince my DM to let The Koga do this for an interesting character. Sorcerers remind me of blue mages, and as such they should have less control over what they learn. So how do you go about doing this? Dice rolls.:D I learn a number of spells for each level I can cast equal to my charisma modifier. (I have an 18 so I learn three spells for each level I can cast.) So, I look at the sorcerer/wizard list, count the list into a numbers starting from top to bottom, I then roll the dice and the spells I learn are that of the numbers they equal to on the dice. Sometimes lists are too big even for a d20 in which case you have to use a little math to figure out how much to minus from the overall rolls and such, but it's well worth it. If you roll the same number twice, you simply roll again. For instance, I'm a first level sorcerer. I roll six dice. Three for level zero spells, three for level one. I roll two d8 to determine which spells I learn for zero. (Once I get a sixteen I simply roll the two d8 learn that -1. Then I can learn the first spell on the list. and for level one I roll 2d20 and a d4. Then if I get 44 I simply put a -1 penalty that way I can learn the first spell. It may not seem all that random but it deffinitly works.) Now to add even MORE spice to this already risky endevure. I invented blue magic and monster magic as feats. Blue magic allows me to roll two additional dice to learn a spell level of my choosing. For instance say I want to learn two more level one spells, I use this feat for that. Monster magic allows me to roll my dice and learn from a differant class list entirely. Say I want to learn some druid spells, at first level I have monster magic as a feat, so I roll off the druid list instead of my normal sorcerer/wizard list. But come level two, I will revert back to learning sorcerer/wizard spells. Thus I'm not just a spontanous druid.. I can choose to "stack" with monster magic, getting the feat now and wait till the level after this one to learn a differant list. This offers a little stradegy in the midsts of chaos magic progression. I'm also trying to make spellcraft more intune with learning spells for the sorcerer. I don't think this makes the other spellcasters any less important. Paladins and rangers arn't even really meant to cast spells, they just do it for added flavor, clerics, druids, wizards, and bards still are required for stability, and it's not like you have much control over the spells you learn. Just some discipline via feats on how to make it a little more to your liking.. To further make sure this was unbroken, you can't simply "move on" to another list once you've learnt all the spells of that level. For instance if I learned all the zero level sorcerer/wizard spells, I can't simply jump to the cleric list. I either have to burn a feat for monster magic and learn cleric spells for that progression, or simply ignore the zero spell list and roll dice accordingly for other spells I CAN learn. What The Koga wants to know is.. Is this broken? Overpowerd? I think it would be really fun and it just seems more sorcerer like to me. The art of chaos. ^_^
Koga:The ninja trick 02-20-04, 01:11 AM	Incase that didn't make much sense all in one sitting, here's a first level character with his spell list. Assuming he has an 18 charisma and is human, I decide to gve him monster magic: druid as a feat so for this level I want him to learn druid spells and his other feat is blue magic, and I choose his two additional spells to be first level ones. Sense there's thirteen level zero druid spells, I shall add an additional +1 to the d12 to determine what I learn. Once I get 13 I take that away and roll a normal d12 that way there's a chance I could get a 1. Level zero spells: Know direction. Detect magic. Flare. Alright, for level one there's a fifteen druid spell list. So I'll roll a d12 and d4 and give a -1 penalty. Level one spells: Goodberry. Invisibility to animals. Obscuring mist. Animal friendship. Detect animals or plants. Now next level I will go back to learning from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. At level three I can choose to get another monster magic feat and do as I did just now, or allow myself to keep learning from the sorcerer/wizard list, and the monster magic feat will let me learn from a differant class list NEXT level. But I must choose either now or one level later. So if I choose later, at level 4 when I can finnally cast level 2 spells, I will learn from whatever class list I choose, but the downside is ALL spells I'll now learn will be from that class till next level which I revert back. It's very risky, but then again, I think that's what a sorcerer is all about. :D
Koga:The ninja trick 02-20-04, 03:22 PM	Yikes, The Koga DID discover a flaw in this plan that would make the sorcerer waaaaay too powerful. It seems by the old standard he'd learn bassically all spells as even if he only stayed at 18 charisma he'd still learn three spells every level of every spell level. He'd learn all spells in the player's handbook if you let him, making a wizard obselete. So I revamped that. Now bassically it's the 3.0 sorcerer's amount of spells known x3. Instead of nine spells the amount of zero level spells he can learn naturally is up to twenty seven. Instead of five spells the amount of 1st level spells he can learn naturally is up to fifteen. I discoverd that with random dice rolls, it's not exactly easy to take advantage of this vast spell knowledge, but I have buffed up the sorcerer quite a bit. Especially with my home-made feats he could very easily show up the wizard. So as an added fault (He didn't seem to have much of one really besides bad luck.) if I get a double on a dice roll (Roll a seven and I already know that spell for instance.) I do not roll again, i've lost that shot at learning a new spell. So bassically I am fully dependant on the roll of the die. It's not much, but it sets some balance I think.
Koga:The ninja trick 02-21-04, 11:17 AM	Well, from The Koga's aquantinces I've gotten mixed messages. Girls and newbs seem to like the idea. Expirienced players don't. Havn't gotten a DM's response yet on the matter. Just a player's point of view. Course The Koga trusts you can help turn this idea of random chaos magic into something more balanced and better if possible. ^_^d
neoanderthal 02-21-04, 04:31 PM	I like the idea of randomly assigning spells - it does fit the concept of the sorcerer to a 'T'! :D Here are some ideas, that strike me, but they may not be workable: Use Charisma to alter the # of spells cast per day, but use the character's Int modifier to alter the # of spells known. This would be added to the class maximum, for the absolute maximum a particular Sorcerer could learn. Your Monster Magic feat is interesting, but it might be a bit too powerful. You might be better served by coming up with a few spell lists that break spells into schools, but include some divine spells in these lists, too. In essence, make your own sorcerer spell lists, taking a bit from here and there. To gain a spell, the player would roll to determine the school, and then roll to select a spell from that school. It would make sorcerers unpredictable; one could never know for sure which spells he or she would likely know. Even these ideas might be too powerful, but I'm tempted to find out myself, now :) You've got a great idea here.
Koga:The ninja trick 02-21-04, 09:13 PM	Thanks. ^_^ That does give The Koga an idea. To make things simpler. (Pelor knows we love things simple. :P ) instead of rolling the dice over a large portion page, I seperate it into the eight school categories (As the list on the player's handbook does.) and roll a d8 to see which school to roll my three chances at learning a new spell from! :D And the monster magic feat could still work, I'd just have to keep a list with me of alphabetical order the spell and the school they belong in. This way I'll never have to roll over a d20. And this way it's even more of a challenge. But I get what I want. Lots of random. ^.^
Koga:The ninja trick 02-21-04, 10:26 PM	Thanks neoanderthaul, your idea really helped. ^_^ The monster magic feat still applies, but is alot less broken now. And the blue magic feat still applies, but as with learning naturally you have to roll two d8 to see which schools you learn from. (Universal spells apply to all lists.) If a number on the dice exceeds the number of spells on the list, just re-roll. But doubles will happen much easier now and it's overall alot sleaker and better. I applied this to the cleric's list with the blue/monster magic feats and got the following. Natural: Divinitation. Blue: Aburation and enchantment. Level 0: Detect magic. Detect poisen. Guidance. Read magic. Purify food and drink. Level 1: Detect evil/good/chaos/law. Detect undead, Comprehend languages. Comprehend languages. Random action. Command. Cure light wounds. Obscuring mist. The list may appear much bigger then the 3.0 sorcerer's but in actuallity come level-ups, I may prove to be unlucky and not learn all that many spells. You just never know with that many dice rolls. Considering a 3.0 human sorcerer at level one with two feats in bonus spell will learn six level one, where as 3.K human sorcerer at level one with two feats in blue magic MAY learn twelve. It's only double. And at that I have little choice of what I learn meaning I can't pull of super combos, and there's a chance I may get really really unlucky. It's a challenge for the player, an entertaining event for the DM, a relief for newbies who don't know how to stradegize, and gives the fellow party members something to consider. The 3.K sorcerer is truly chaotic. And thus unreliable. But may prove to be of help. As you could see from the list I'd be excellent at gypsy work. But do I start focusing on feats to help my divination? Doubtful, not even this diviner knows what the future holds.. It's ceartainly not something to powergame with. But I forget The Koga lives among rules lawyers. -_-;;
Koga:The ninja trick 02-23-04, 04:13 PM	Well, it took a while, but I was able to type up and seperate all the player's handbook spells into thier school catergories. The new and improved 3.K sorcerers works like this. When learning spells naturally, he rolls a number of dice equal to his charisma modifier a number of times equal to the amount of spells a sorcerer would normally learn. For instance a level one sorcerer knows two spells at first level, if my sorcerer has an eighteen charisma, he can roll three dice two times. That's a total of six spells. Maybe.. A drawback is you must roll a d8 to determine what school to roll the spells you learn from. The list is a combination of all the spells in the player's handbook that's within a sorcerer's power to cast. (There are very few spells he couldn't use, but there are some. I left those out.) so let's say I roll the d8 and get divination. This means all the spells I learn this level will be divination. My level zero AND level one spells. Unless I apply the feat which I will explain in a minute. Side note: Universal is not an actual school of magic as said in the school specilization section. Therfor all dice rolls also add the universal school to them. So let's say there was four illussion spells that level you could learn and six universal, instead of rolling a d4 you'd roll a d10 applying universal spells to possible ones you can learn as well. Now that that's been taken care of monster magic is the sorcerer's primary feat of choice. (The Koga likes the sound of monster magic over blue magic..) This feat allows the sorcerer to roll another d8 to determine which school he learns from and can possibly learn an additional number of spells equal to his charisma modifier. Assuming dice rolls go well for you. This however is still somewhat broken, so as a second flaw in the sorcerer's design he learns all his spells the latest as if another class. For instance bestow curse is learned by some at level three, others level four, he learns it on the latter. If the spell could possibly be learned at a later level, the sorcerer will be the first to know about it. This slows down his power process as all the good spells take even longer then usual to obtain. And it doesn't make the wizard appear any less needed. Strengths: More then three times the amount of spells a 3.0 sorcerer would know. (Possibly.) Weaknesses: Very dependant on good luck. Potential for good spells has been slowed down. No choice in what spells you learn and thusly no way to maximize your character's power level. Luckiely for The Koga the rules lawyers are players not DMs, so I may just be able to pull this guy off. :D The Koga even dares the DM (As another player is playing a sorcerer as well.) to let him play the regular sorcerer and me my version and see how unbalanced it overall is..
neoanderthal 02-23-04, 07:37 PM	It sounds like you've got a good idea there for the sorcerer - I might have to try your variant out myself :) I'm glad some of my ideas were of use...