Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldritch_Lord 12-29-06, 12:25 PM	So here's my idea for a different kind of druid, one I believe is more in touch with real life and other fantasy series than the one in the Player's Handbook. I’ve been upset for a while that the core druid seems to be just a cleric of a nature god with ranger perks and wild shape—both are divine spellcasters; both have the same BAB, same saves, and close to the same number of spells; both have many spells in common; and clerics with the Animal and Plant domains come pretty close to druid spells anyways. Granted, I’m not saying they’re identical or played the same way; I’m just explaining why I wanted to give the druid a different flavor. If anyone has ever read the Cloudmages series by S. L. Farrell, you’ll recognize the “slow magic” system. For those who haven’t, in that series nature magic is considered inferior to magic from ancient artifacts that draw on sky magic. Nature magic is called “slow magic” because it takes a long time to draw enough energy to power one spell, and once used it’s gone, unlike the reusable sky magic. However, the slow magic is much, much, much more powerful if the caster is prepared, and the druids have great flexibility in what kind of spells they prepare. I recommend you read it if you haven’t. Another inspiration for this druid was the Sword of Shannara series by Terry Brooks. One of the main characters is a powerful druid whose focus is the forest, rather than nature in general. He has fewer flashy spells, but he can shoot green and blue flames pretty much at will by channeling natural power through him; this sort of reminded me of a warlock who could cast a few druid spells on the side. The final inspiration was Celtic mythology, where the druids were said to be talented at divining the future and enchanting the minds of their enemies, as opposed to summoning animals and calling flame out of thin air; I’ve given the druid here particular power with divination and enchantment, while forbidding most summoning and instant-transport spells. Before I get past the boring explanation, I want to mention that I haven't run the “slow magic” idea I came up with past the people on the Magic and Spells board, so feel free to critique at will. Now, without further ado, the druid: Druid Alignment: Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills The druid’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level (4 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Druid Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Wild shape, wild empathy 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Druid Fire 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 One With Nature 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Resist nature’s lure 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Spellcasting 6th +4 +5 +2 +5 ironwood 7th +5 +5 +2 +5 warp wood 8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Wild shape (Large) 9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Venom immunity 10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Wild shape (Tiny) 11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 plant growth 12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Wild shape (plant) 13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 A thousand faces 14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Timeless body, wild shape (Huge) 15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 shillelagh 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Wild shape (aspect of nature) 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 spellstaff 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Wild shape (elemental) 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 commune with nature 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Oasis Class Features All of the following are class features of the druid. Weapon and Armor Proficiency Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape. Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones. A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any other class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter. Bonus Languages A druid’s bonus language options include Sylvan, the language of woodland creatures. This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his or her race. A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which he or she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, the druid knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids. Druidic has its own alphabet. Wild Shape (Su) A druid has the ability to turn him- or herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again; this may be done once per day for every two class levels the druid has, with a minimum of once per day. Options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time wild shape is used, the druid regains lost hit points as if you had rested for a night. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level. A druid can remain in wild shape for a total number of hours equal to the druid’s Wisdom score. At 1st level, the druid picks a number of forms equal to twice his or her Int modifier into which he or she may wild shape. An additional form is gained at 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th level; the druid may swap out one known form for a new one at each of these levels. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to his or her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on his or her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. A druid loses his or her ability to speak while in animal form because the druid is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but the druid can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.) A druid’s wild shape ability improves as the druid progresses. At certain levels, the druid gains the ability to assume different forms in addition to a Small or Medium animal; however, these forms are more taxing to maintain, so each form other than a Small or Medium animal costs a certain amount of extra wild shape duration, counted as extra rounds used up per minute spent in wild shape, according to the table below. Extra Rounds Form Minimum Druid Level 1 Large animal 8th 2 Tiny animal 10th 3 Plant creature 12th 4 Huge animal 14th 5 Aspect of Nature 16th 6 Small-Huge elemental 18th For example, if Vadania the 10th level druid wished to wild shape into a cat for 10 minutes, she would use up 12 minutes of her total wild shape duration because becoming a Tiny animal uses up 2 extra rounds of wild shape duration for each minute spent in wild shape. The Aspects of Nature into which the druid may wild shape are those described under the Unearthed Arcana druid wild shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVarian tAspectOfNature). The only wild shape in which the druid may cast spells is the Aspect of Nature; this druid gains no benefit from Natural Spell. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, when in elemental wild shape the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. He or she also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but retains his or her own creature type. Wild shape duration does not only have to be used for wild shape; the druid’s druid fire and spellcasting ability (see below) can be enhanced by expending minutes or hours of wild shape duration. Wild Empathy (Ex) A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a -4 penalty on the check. Druid Fire (Su) A 2nd level druid gains the ability to produce druid fire. This is green fire a druid may use to attack his or her enemies. Druid fire does not harm living beings of the animal, vermin, or plant type, nor does it harm living or once-living plants or plant matter. Druid fire has a range of short (25ft+5ft per caster level). The druid must make a ranged touch attack to hit his or her opponent; he or she may add +1 to the roll for every five minutes of wild shape expended. If it succeeds, the druid fire deals 1d4 per two minutes of wild shape expended, to a maximum of 1d4 per 2 druid levels. The druid may spend an hour of wild shape time to change the type of damage dealt by his or her druid fire to electric, cold, or acid energy; if he or she does so, the druid fire’s color changes to blue, white, or violet respectively; the damage type changes for the next use of druid fire only before changing back to fire. A druid with this ability may also use faerie fire as a spell-like ability usable at will. One With Nature (Ex) A 3rd level druid becomes one with nature, gaining the benefits of the normal druid abilities Nature Sense, Woodland Stride, and Trackless Step. Resist Nature’s Lure (Ex) Starting at 4th level, a druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the supernatural and spell-like abilities of fey. Spells Beginning at 5th level, a druid gains the ability to cast spells. A druid does not prepare spells like a cleric or wizard does; a druid takes much longer to prepare a spell than any other caster does, but the druid may have an unlimited number of spells prepared. To prepare a spell, a druid need not have peace and quiet, but he or she must be in natural surroundings with some form of plant life in abundance; forest and hills are in, deserts and cities are out. Preparing a spell takes several hours: A spell requires 1 hour of preparation per spell level, although these need not be continuous; if the druid is interrupted, he or she simply stops counting preparation time at the point of interruption and may continue later. A druid may put one spell “on hold” to prepare another spell; this can be useful if the druid has a high-level spell he or she is preparing but the druid needs another spell more urgently. A druid may only have one spell “on hold” at a time, and may not prepare another unless either the current spell or the one “on hold” is lost. A druid may increase the power of his or her spells by increasing the preparation time. Metamagic feats may be applied to druid spells as long as preparation time is increased 1 hour for each level the metamagic feat would normally add to a spell. The druid may add +1 to a spell’s save DC, +1 to caster level check to overcome SR, 5ft/caster level to a spell’s range, or 1 unit of time to a spell’s duration by increasing the preparation time by (number of increases) hours. For instance, adding +3 to the save DC (3 increases) of a sleet storm spell and 4 rounds to its duration (4 increases, because its duration is measured in rounds) would add 7 hours to spell preparation time. A spell may not have a total preparation time greater than (druid’s level * druid’s Wis modifier) hours. Even if the druid's total preparation time is high enough, a druid may not prepare a spell whose level is greater than 1/2 his or her class level, rounded down. A druid is not limited to preparing spells from the druid spell list, although he or she has difficulty preparing other classes’ spells. A druid may prepare spells from the cleric list or any domains as normal as long as the spell is not a Necromancy or Illusion(Shadow) spell and the spell does not deal with or use other planes (ethereal jaunt, teleport, plane shift, summon monster, gate, etc.); however, for every hour of preparation, the druid must succeed on a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 20 + spell level. If the druid fails the check, he or she counts the hour(s) spent for preparation time but he or she may not continue preparing that spell for a number of hours equal to the difference between the DC and the druid’s check result, though the druid may put it on hold to prepare another spell. A druid may further modify some spells based on their school. If the spell is of the Abjuration school and it has an area effect, such as repulsion, antilife shell, or magic circle against evil, the druid may spend an extra hour per level of the spell to gain the ability to “push” the boundary against other creatures; if it is an Abjuration spell with a target or targets, such as atonement, fire trap, or mage armor, the druid can add extra targets if he or she spends an extra (number of additional targets squared) hours of preparation. If a spell is of the Conjuration school and it summons a natural/elemental creature or creatures, such as summon nature’s ally, elemental swarm, or phantom steed, the summoned creature(s) gain the benefits of being an animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) to the druid if he or she spends (2 * spell level) extra hours in preparation; if the spell creates or summons an element, an energy type, or plant matter, such as obscuring mist, acid fog, or minor creation, the druid may increase the area/volume of the created objects by 50% per extra hour spent in preparation. If a Divination spell gives knowledge of something in the present, such as detect magic, stone tell, or clairaudience/clairvoyance, the druid may reduce its casting time to 1 standard action or gain all information from multiple rounds in one by increasing the preparation time by a number of hours equal to the spell level – 2; if it deals with the past or future, such as legend lore, augury, or foresight, the druid either has a 100% chance to receive a correct answer or receives the benefits of the spell twice if he or she spends (3 * spell level) extra hours in preparation. If a spell is of the Enchantment school, the druid may spend (2 * spell level) extra hours or preparation to ignore SR. A druid may cast a spell without preparing it ahead of time by expending a number of hours of wild shape equal to four times the number of hours of preparation it would take to prepare the spell, including extra hours needed to modify it, although casting time is increased to two full-round actions, or increased by one full round if the normal casting time is longer than that; casting spells this way is very inefficient and should be saved for an absolute emergency. Ironwood (Sp) A 6th level druid may cast ironwood three times per day as a spell-like ability. Warp Wood (Sp) A 6th level druid may cast warp wood at will as a spell-like ability. Venom Immunity (Ex) At 9th level, a druid gains immunity to all poisons. The druid may also spend hours of wild shape time to gain immunity to diseases for a number of hours equal to the number expended. Plant Growth (Sp) An 11th level druid may cast plant growth three times per day as a spell-like ability. A Thousand Faces (Su) At 13th level, a druid gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the disguise self spell, but only while in her normal form. This affects the druid’s body but not her possessions. It is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of the druid’s appearance, within the limits described for the spell. Timeless Body (Ex) After attaining 14th level, a druid no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place; bonuses still accrue, and the druid still dies of old age when his or her time is up. Shillelagh (Sp) A 15th level druid may cast shillelagh at will as a spell-like ability. Spellstaff (Sp) A 17th level druid may cast spellstaff once per day as a spell-like ability on any staff on which he or she has cast shillelagh. The spellstaff may hold any spell the druid has cast into it, and the druid may modify the spell held in the spellstaff with any metamagic feats he or she knows without increasing preparation time or expending wild shape time. The spell must be prepared as normal, not cast through expenditure of wild shape time, and the druid may have only one spellstaff at any one time. Commune with Nature (Sp) A 19th level druid may cast commune with nature at will as a spell-like ability, with the casting time halved. Oasis (Su) A 20th level druid may bring the forest to any other environment. A tundra and a frozen waste are covered in flowers, sand is covered in wild grasses, rocks are covered in moss, etc. This counts as a “natural environment” for purposes of spell preparation. The druid may bring this oasis forth in an area with a 5ft radius per two druid levels, centered on the druid, with a casting time of 10 minutes. A druid may have only one oasis at a time, so if he or she uses this ability again, the prior oasis disappears, but this ability is otherwise permanent. The druid has special advantages while in the oasis. The druid may surround the perimeter with a wall of thorns once every hour, the druid may attempt to entangle any creature in the oasis once every 10 minutes, and the druid may cover the oasis in hallucinatory terrain. If this ability is used in an inhabited area such as a city or town, instead of simply a non-forest terrain, or the area includes worked wood, cut stone, and the like instead of natural materials, the area is limited to a 5ft radius per 5 druid levels and the oasis disappears as soon as the druid leaves the area; the druid still retains the wall of thorns and entangle abilities, and may replace hallucinatory terrain with mirage arcana. Ex-Druids A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including spells, druid fire and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). He or she cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description). This druid may seem overpowered, as there is effectively no limit on the number of spells a druid may have at any one time. However, there are a few mitigating factors. Firstly, any spell above a 0 level spell takes 8 hours per spell level to prepare; a simple charm animal spell takes 8 hours of concentration, while a PHB druid can come up with more spells in 1/8 the time, and an elemental swarm spell takes at least 72 hours, so that's a few days right there. Basically, the farther along a druid gets, the more spells he or she will have, but this druid relies more on wild shape and druid fire than spells anyways. If a DM thinks a druid is hoarding too many spells, the DM can simply limit access to a forest environment (until 20th level, at which point the druid should be able to prepare however many elemental swarms he or she wants!) Secondly, each spell is gone once cast; they don't return each day, so a druid is like a walking talking assembly of scrolls. So...thoughts? Questions? I'm thinking of using this in my next homebrew campaign, so every comment and/or critique is appreciated.
farghal 12-29-06, 02:03 PM	I must be honest i did not read it all but what i have seen and read i really don't like. (please do not take this offending in any way it's just what i think) I will try to explain why. First a cleric and druid are not almost the same. They are even not the same on the long run. At least..... when roleplaying may'be if you put all the statistics together they could seem to be in some way's the same. But in that case the spell list is still very different. A druid is a person who gains power from all the tree's plants wildlife etc and can use that to cast spells. In my eye's a druid is an primairy spellcaster so getting spells at level 5 is just not done (in my oppinion other people may think otherwise) The druid fire is fuzzy with the range 30ft +10ft per minute of wildshape.....???? huh? sorry did'nt understand that. plus the ability to do that at will is the core ability of a warlock which i don't think a druid should have. Plus it's an standard attack which is very hostile for a druid who is not the person prefering to kill everything (not even evil druids) then we got the spellcasting part. 8 hours of preparation per spell level??? not restricted to the druid spell list??? prepare unlimited spells per day??? wtf? sorry but a druid who is in though with nature could cast sor/wiz of bard spells or even assasin spells? at this point i stopped. I'm not trying to insult you in any way but may'be you could state what you think a druid is because in my eyes the way you put it down here is by far not a druid in any way. good luck though.
Eldritch_Lord 12-29-06, 05:29 PM	I didn't mean to say that I thought that druids are the same as clerics--I meant that they are similar in a mechanical way, just like people argue over whether sorcerers or wizards are better. I wasn't trying to replace the druid in the PHB; I like that one fine. I was trying to provide an interesting variant based on books and myths, like when someone posts "omg i want to make something from X game/X book how do i do it". Like I said in the introduction, this one's based on the Cloudmages books and Sword of Shannara. The reason I put spellcasting at level 5 was because on these boards, I have seen several complaints to the effect that the druid is "broken" because he/she can stay in wild shape all day and cast spells while in this form. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but what I'm doing is making players choose between wild shape and other things. The druid fire thing I agree is a little hard to understand. Here's an example: a second level druid with a 12 Wis has 2*12=24 hours of wild shape. He can spend all day in wild shape if he wants. He comes across some goblin. He can fire a 1d6 bolt of druid fire for no "cost", or he can make it 1d6+1d4 if he gives up 1 minute of wild shape for the day, or he can make it 1d6+2d4 if he gives up 2 minutes of wild shape, or he can hit the goblin from 100 feet away if he gives up 70 minutes/1 hour 10 minutes of wild shape. Let's say he does the last one; then he can wild shape into something for 22 hours, 50 minutes. I know the whole launching fire thing doesn't make sense for the druid in the PHB, which is my whole point--the druid I have here draws the power of nature through himself and uses it to attack his enemies, whether that's through turning into a bear and biting them or launching a magical attack, and if the fire works better, he'll use it. The whole spells thing is another misunderstanding. The book inspiring this system has druids as well, but they take exhausting rituals and long meditation to prepare spells; it's not just "wake up, pray to the trees, get spells". I wanted to make this a more complicated process. When I say unlimited spells, I don't mean the druid can cast anything he wants, anytime; I mean there's no upper limit on the number of spells prepared if he spends the appropriate amount of time. And this isn't sitting in the woods for hours; the druid can wake up, spend an hour in meditation while the wizard studies or the cleric prays, then get on with the day, maybe catching another hour here or a few more minutes there, and in a day or two, voila! a spell is prepared. Heck, since the druid doesn't need to sleep 8 hours before preparing spells, the druid can prepare while taking the night watch. So it takes a few days to prepare a few spells instead of getting a whole bunch all at once. This druid is not meant to replace any type of primary spellcaster; the best analog I can find is an artificer: think of this druid as making scrolls instead of preparing spells and it doesn't look so bad. The whole thing with other spell lists is to make up for the long preparation time. Basically, yes, the druid has access to other spell lists. However, that druid has to make several Spellcraft checks to prepare it. For an extreme example, to prepare miracle, the druid would have to make 9 DC 29 spellcraft checks; if he fails he has to wait even longer than the normal time. To prepare wish, he would have to make 70-some DC 38 checks. Basically, he has druid spells, but if he needs, say, stone to flesh or break enchantment or something because the wizard/cleric is incapacitated, the druid can spend a week to prepare something that will help. I know this is almost nothing like the PHB druid, and as I have repeatedly stated, that's not my intent--it's not even my intent to make this remotely resemble a "regular" druid. This is a more wild shape-focussed druid, who is more of the fury-of-storms kind of druid than the kind and gentle druid. The druid the druid fire thing is based on in Sword of Shannara is a very martial druid, who has a crusader's zeal to protect the forest. He's a druid the way Gandalf is a wizard: both are very powerful, but magic is not their primary weapon. Gandalf had a sword, this druid has druid fire. Remember, this druid would be around alongside the "regular" PHB druid, so this is to the PHB druid as, for example, a truenamer would be to a PHB wizard--a spellcaster with a different magic and a different focus. I hope some of this makes sense, and I should have known not to assume everyone would know what I was talking about just because I said "It's like the druid in these two books." I take no offense, and I hope this makes things a bit clearer.
Treymordin 12-29-06, 05:54 PM	This is a weird class, a lot going on here.
Eldritch_Lord 12-29-06, 08:04 PM	How is it "weird"? Weird good or weird bad?
Khael 12-30-06, 03:01 PM	It looks to me like you've nerfed druids here to something no-one will ever use, especially at high levels. Firstly you changed wildchange and gave druid fire to force a druid to choose between them? No, you didn't. You gave druids a massive power amp to their fire. Firstly by allowing druids to shift out as they want, they will actually spend maybe...an hopur a day wildshaped for combat. Secondly the immense wild-shape time (I'd give this druid at least 14 base, and increase it to 16. Come level five thats 70 hours.) means at low levels the chance for leveling encounters. 2d6+30d4, at a lost of 1 hour wildshape...nice...thats what, 82 average damage.... Of course come level five when those wildshape hours get thrown in magic...it will be burned though, but this druid isn't a spell casting class. If it is you screw over its party so bad, or the enemy, depending on how tight time is in-game. I don't know, I'd spend the four days to get storm of vengence at level 5... And finally... despite what I've said already, its fairly weak when that spell casting can't be abused. Look at the warlock, at high levels its 10d6 medium range damage is considered weak. All this does is amp up the damage and range, but sacrifice all the goodies warlocks get. Sorry if the above sounds rude, but I don't think it works.
SebastianHero 12-30-06, 05:28 PM	It's interesting to try something that matches closer to fantasy literature or historical concepts, such as a long casting time. However, I agree with everyone else that there are some challenges here. 1) D&D -- more so than in prior editions - is a tactical game. I don't know many players, or adventure scenarios, or even campaign arcs, that afford multiple days to prepare spells. As a player, I would think that I'll never get around to spell casting. And if a feature isn't going to be used, then why include it? Perhaps this can be fixed. Some options: 1 hour preparation / spell level, with a maximum spell level as currently indicated for druids (that is, start at 1st level). And stay with the druid spell list. It works. They have amazing spells, and a preparation time of hours off-sets possible abuse. 2) Personally, the druid fire doesn't work for me. Historical druids didn't run around setting fire to people/things, and while a variant is plausible, why call it a druid? Plus I agree with others that the druid fire is a little too similar to the warlock. I haven't read the books you mention, but real druids helped their people in combat by sending energy to their warriors, sometimes crafting idols from wood that did the same, and so on. Or for fantasy druids, using their natural attacks in animal form. 3) As a DM, I would never allow this class due to the wildshape. Wildshape is a potent feature. At 1st level I might allow ONE specific form at will; or alternatively, once per day in any Small or Medium animal form. Over the long haul, if you allow flexibility of form, you could allow wildshape 1ce/day/druid level, increasing the menu of size and type options as you do now. Or alternatively, you could allow the druid to pick one form per 3 levels (1st, 3rd, 6th, etc), with unlimited wildshape into known forms. Perhaps I like the 2nd option because it halts players from spending game time searching for the "perfect form" for a situation, and because the 1st option is more of a shapeshifter (which might be what you're looking for, but then I'd call the class the "Wild Shifter.") On the other hand, the 1st option is more tactically flexible and appealing to players. 4) The shillelagh at high levels feels useless. Its a 1st level spell, so game design wise, if you want it usable at will (that is, equivalent to 5x/day), then it should be granted to a druid at 5th or 6th level. Despite all the criticism above, I'm posting because I think the idea has potential and hope you find these comments useful.
Eldritch_Lord 12-30-06, 06:03 PM	Thanks everyone. To Khael: The "immense" wild shape time is actually not very much more than the PHB druid gets, if you break out the uses per day, although this druid increases time each level instead of the time jumping every few levels. The druid fire 2d6+30d4 shouldn't happen; I left out the fact that the extra d4 cap out at 1/2 caster level. My bad. The storm of vengeance at level five issue was also a typo, I should have limited the druid to the usual spell level = (2 * druid level) -1; I guess it's just hardwired into my brain that that's the case and I didn't check for potential problems, but I'll edit my first post to make those two issues more explicit. I don't think it's too weak at higher levels. You say that there are too many "goodies" left out that would help, but as I mentioned in the last post, this druid isn't a primary spellcaster, it's more of a niche class; it's easiest to think of the long-preparation-time spells like scrolls: it's almost as if you had a warlock who could use the imbue item ability at level 5 for no gp/XP cost. Granted, the other "goodies" are spell like abilities, and the druid can't prepare the equivalent of other magic item types, but that's part of the reason the druid gets so much wild shape time. I'll make the changes to the first post, and I appreciate the feedback. The numbers can always be tweaked, and uses per day can be changed; it's the overall theme I'm looking at. To SebastianHero: 1) After hearing from everyone, I agree the time might be a bit much. I meant for the druid to not have as many spells as everyone else available at the beginning, but to be able to accumulate a lot over time. I think 1 hour/level thing is good; I'll try that. Although the druid can prepare spells outside of their list, it takes several difficult Spellcraft checks to do so, and for the amount of effort it takes to prepare any spell at all, it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble. That said, with reduced time requirements, potential for abuse is greater, so I could prohibit arcane spells, but I'm not sure I would want to prohibit cleric spells. I'll think about it. 2) I think the main hangup here is the "fire" thing. The druid I'm using as a model for this actually uses "life energy"-type power for lots of different things; I haven't read the book in a while and remembered only one chapter where he used it to throw fire. I actually was basing it somewhat on the warlock, as I felt the druid needed something else offensive if he wasn't going to rely on spells as much, but if I'm going to reduce the preparation time I could weaken druid fire. Suggestions? I know real life druids were more of a supporting factor in battle than direct combatants, but then again, real druids didn't have special animal companions or directly offensive spells like the PHB one does either. 3) I like the few known forms idea, maybe number of forms equal to Int mod + 1 at each level a new type of form is gained? I probably should have limited that in the original, but I was too focussed on the mechanics to look at the game-slowing-to-a-crawl effect. 4) I agree it's pretty much useless; I really added all of the spell like abilities after ironwood and warp wood to fill what felt like dead levels. Any suggestions for replacement(s) would help.
Khael 12-31-06, 05:37 AM	Thanks everyone. To Khael: The "immense" wild shape time is actually not very much more than the PHB druid gets, if you break out the uses per day, although this druid increases time each level instead of the time jumping every few levels. The druid fire 2d6+30d4 shouldn't happen; I left out the fact that the extra d4 cap out at 1/2 caster level. My bad. One thing here... 'normal' druids have to choose, spend hours in wildshape or lose that wildshape use. So unless they specifically have to come out, they'll maybe use one or two uses. This version however can just go in and out, (I keep thinking the line "Druid X, transform and roll out) with impunity, so all those hours aren't needed for their wildshape, they'll all get burned in spells and fire, with maybe one of those hours getting used in wildshape comfortably. 1 round=6 seconds, 10 rounds=1 minute. 600 rounds=1 hour. The cap on damage is a good idea where it not for the fact at level 20, we're looking at 6d6+10d4, or 46 damage a round. See below for a follow-up to this based on the warlock. The storm of vengeance at level five issue was also a typo, I should have limited the druid to the usual spell level = (2 * druid level) -1; I guess it's just hardwired into my brain that that's the case and I didn't check for potential problems, but I'll edit my first post to make those two issues more explicit. This is very good to hear, so a level X druid is still limited to using up to the old set of spell level, but the spells they can draw on is much wider. I don't think it's too weak at higher levels. You say that there are too many "goodies" left out that would help, but as I mentioned in the last post, this druid isn't a primary spellcaster, it's more of a niche class; it's easiest to think of the long-preparation-time spells like scrolls: it's almost as if you had a warlock who could use the imbue item ability at level 5 for no gp/XP cost. Granted, the other "goodies" are spell like abilities, and the druid can't prepare the equivalent of other magic item types, but that's part of the reason the druid gets so much wild shape time. It is. The problem here is, the warlock is not a primary spellcaster either. Its not much of a secondary caster even, its more of a arcane marksman in effect, a marksman who can hit at touch from over 200ft, fly, turn invisible, see invisible, charm someone, warp out of danger. His goodies let him survive better, and use that nice increased range. But he is still a weak class in terms of combat at high levels (Not necessarily a slur to the warlock, since it has so many other uses). This classes niche however...is taken, by that warlock. The warlock can make those scrolls, or that staff. The difference here is, you can carry several staffs or scrolls the warlock made, and in the staff case, they can do several tricks again and again, and be handed round. Looking at things I expect those wild-shaped timed spells to get used a lot out of combat or in the start of combat only. 18 hours for storm of vengence, is not much of a dent in a 324 limit (for a 18 wisdom, level 18 druid). If you wandered, that druid can cast storm of vengence 18 times exactly. Part of the problem with the spells is I feel how dependent on the game it is. With this druid if time is ever limited, what you then have made is a spellpoint using 2 round casting time, druid, with a secondary attack. I'll make the changes to the first post, and I appreciate the feedback. The numbers can always be tweaked, and uses per day can be changed; it's the overall theme I'm looking at. 1) After hearing from everyone, I agree the time might be a bit much. I meant for the druid to not have as many spells as everyone else available at the beginning, but to be able to accumulate a lot over time. I think 1 hour/level thing is good; I'll try that. Although the druid can prepare spells outside of their list, it takes several difficult Spellcraft checks to do so, and for the amount of effort it takes to prepare any spell at all, it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble. That said, with reduced time requirements, potential for abuse is greater, so I could prohibit arcane spells, but I'm not sure I would want to prohibit cleric spells. I'll think about it. It's failed here, then this druid gets spellpoint spells at a longer time, as the user sees fit. The only counter to this is someone with a bow or similar, just shooting the druid every time. 2) I think the main hangup here is the "fire" thing. The druid I'm using as a model for this actually uses "life energy"-type power for lots of different things; I haven't read the book in a while and remembered only one chapter where he used it to throw fire. I actually was basing it somewhat on the warlock, as I felt the druid needed something else offensive if he wasn't going to rely on spells as much, but if I'm going to reduce the preparation time I could weaken druid fire. Suggestions? [?QUOTE] In this you need to modify something, but the fire is already pretty weak, particularly if they can just burn 14 wildshape hours to get a firestorm. [QUOTE=Eldritch_Lord;11041092] 3) I like the few known forms idea, maybe number of forms equal to Int mod + 1 at each level a new type of form is gained? I probably should have limited that in the original, but I was too focussed on the mechanics to look at the game-slowing-to-a-crawl effect. I like this idea, but since the druid is already limited to shapes he's studied, this is potentially in effect already, especially without the animal companion. Sorry if this reads like my being a smart-alec again, I think you do have something here, but how effective this something will be is a hidden fact at the moment. One question here though: What is a druids caster level? Technically at level 20 its 15, since he only has casting from 5th, but for a base caster like this I may expect 20. I think it an important point...
Eldritch_Lord 12-31-06, 10:39 AM	One thing here... 'normal' druids have to choose, spend hours in wildshape or lose that wildshape use. So unless they specifically have to come out, they'll maybe use one or two uses. This version however can just go in and out, (I keep thinking the line "Druid X, transform and roll out) with impunity, so all those hours aren't needed for their wildshape, they'll all get burned in spells and fire, with maybe one of those hours getting used in wildshape comfortably. 1 round=6 seconds, 10 rounds=1 minute. 600 rounds=1 hour. I can put a minimum time increment on it, like "Even if the druid is only in wild shape for 1 round, it uses up 1 hour blah blah blah" to encourage the druid to choose more; what would be a good minimum? 1 hour? 1 hour/level? The cap on damage is a good idea where it not for the fact at level 20, we're looking at 6d6+10d4, or 46 damage a round. See below for a follow-up to this based on the warlock. What do you think would be a good limit? Should I get rid of the 6d6 at the beginning, or decrease it, or increase it, or make it entirely dependent on level, or increase the cap? I don't think it's too weak at higher levels. You say that there are too many "goodies" left out that would help, but as I mentioned in the last post, this druid isn't a primary spellcaster, it's more of a niche class; it's easiest to think of the long-preparation-time spells like scrolls: it's almost as if you had a warlock who could use the imbue item ability at level 5 for no gp/XP cost. Granted, the other "goodies" are spell like abilities, and the druid can't prepare the equivalent of other magic item types, but that's part of the reason the druid gets so much wild shape time. It is. The problem here is, the warlock is not a primary spellcaster either. Its not much of a secondary caster even, its more of a arcane marksman in effect, a marksman who can hit at touch from over 200ft, fly, turn invisible, see invisible, charm someone, warp out of danger. His goodies let him survive better, and use that nice increased range. But he is still a weak class in terms of combat at high levels (Not necessarily a slur to the warlock, since it has so many other uses). This classes niche however...is taken, by that warlock. The warlock can make those scrolls, or that staff. The difference here is, you can carry several staffs or scrolls the warlock made, and in the staff case, they can do several tricks again and again, and be handed round. It is similar to the warlock, but with a different focus. A given warlock and a given druid will probably use the same number of invocations or spells in a given encounter; however, where the warlock would focus on the eldritch blast, the druid has a limited use ranged ability, even if the limit is really big, so the druid is a more effective melee combatant with wild shape. If you think the druid would use the druid fire too often, I can make it more of a drain on resources to encourage the wild shape. Looking at things I expect those wild-shaped timed spells to get used a lot out of combat or in the start of combat only. 18 hours for storm of vengence, is not much of a dent in a 324 limit (for a 18 wisdom, level 18 druid). If you wandered, that druid can cast storm of vengence 18 times exactly. Part of the problem with the spells is I feel how dependent on the game it is. With this druid if time is ever limited, what you then have made is a spellpoint using 2 round casting time, druid, with a secondary attack. This is something I was trying to avoid with the really long casting times in the beginning; the druid could maybe get off one or two spells before using up too much wild shape time. If prep time was really limited, the druid would accumulate spells more slowly, but still has wild shape and druid fire to fall back on. Like I've said, I wanted the spells to be secondary to wild shape in this class, so the spell points thing was an unintended consequence of the prep-time fix. It's failed here, then this druid gets spellpoint spells at a longer time, as the user sees fit. The only counter to this is someone with a bow or similar, just shooting the druid every time. What is the "it" you say fails here? The shorter casting time? Access to cleric spells? In this you need to modify something, but the fire is already pretty weak, particularly if they can just burn 14 wildshape hours to get a firestorm. Like I said above, the long casting times were supposed to prevent this, so it wouldn't have been 14 hours, it would have been somewhere around 112 to cast it without preparation. Can you see an easy way to balance shorter prep time vs. preventing "spell point casting"? I like this idea, but since the druid is already limited to shapes he's studied, this is potentially in effect already, especially without the animal companion. If I'm going to limit the number of shapes, as opposed to whatever the druid wants, should I get rid of the "shapes studied" part so the druid can choose any form? ("Well, I spent time up in the north, so of course I know what a polar bear is!") Sorry if this reads like my being a smart-alec again, I think you do have something here, but how effective this something will be is a hidden fact at the moment. You're not being a smart alec; I threw a weird idea at the boards and I expected lots of critiques. One question here though: What is a druids caster level? Technically at level 20 its 15, since he only has casting from 5th, but for a base caster like this I may expect 20. I think it an important point... The druid's caster level is still equal to class level, or the spell level = (class level/2)-1 pattern doesn't work. Thanks for the feedback; keep the comments coming.
Fuzzy_Logic 12-31-06, 01:48 PM	Some Thoughts: Wild shape is too complex. I don't want to keep track of the extra 0.6 rounds of wild shape time expended. Especially not for a guy with HOURS. Druid Fire is too good at low levels. the cost to pump up the damage is very small, and the damage is significantly better than a Warlock's when fully pumped. Also, having a fixed range might be less confusing. Finally, I worked on a similar spellcasting mechanic once: you coudl prepare one spell per day. One suggestion-- if you give the druid limited spell slots, people will accept it much more readily since there's much less potential for abuse. If you give him as many slots as a PHB Druid, he probably won't ever have time to fill them all, anwyay, but some people will breathe easier.
Khael 12-31-06, 04:43 PM	I can put a minimum time increment on it, like "Even if the druid is only in wild shape for 1 round, it uses up 1 hour blah blah blah" to encourage the druid to choose more; what would be a good minimum? 1 hour? 1 hour/level? I'm afraid I can't think of any limit for minimum use that gives a good flavour to it, since if you have to spend an hour in wildshape minimum for example, it would make more sense to be more of an effort that way. What do you think would be a good limit? Should I get rid of the 6d6 at the beginning, or decrease it, or increase it, or make it entirely dependent on level, or increase the cap? Part of the problem here is its a weak attack base, but can be pumped up for almost every shot at the moment. I would suggest leaving it for now since it does give a secondary attack, but leaving it as a secondary thing rather than the primary attack it was intended as. Single shot short-ranged attacks will not be viable as primary attacks at high levels. It is similar to the warlock, but with a different focus. A given warlock and a given druid will probably use the same number of invocations or spells in a given encounter; however, where the warlock would focus on the eldritch blast, the druid has a limited use ranged ability, even if the limit is really big, so the druid is a more effective melee combatant with wild shape. If you think the druid would use the druid fire too often, I can make it more of a drain on resources to encourage the wild shape. The druid fire itself is not a problem on this, what I mean is, the warlock has its blast, and a bunch of abilities at will giving it much more flexibility. The druid here however, has none of this flexibility, it simply has a burning pop-gun it will be running on foot to use. This is something I was trying to avoid with the really long casting times in the beginning; the druid could maybe get off one or two spells before using up too much wild shape time. If prep time was really limited, the druid would accumulate spells more slowly, but still has wild shape and druid fire to fall back on. Like I've said, I wanted the spells to be secondary to wild shape in this class, so the spell points thing was an unintended consequence of the prep-time fix. Unfortunally the spells were always the primary, because wildshape would never be a primary thing for a druid, owning to its BAB, HD and the effectiveness of spells. What is the "it" you say fails here? The shorter casting time? Access to cleric spells? The druid not having as many spells as others, though this is a result of the cutback on prep times. Like I said above, the long casting times were supposed to prevent this, so it wouldn't have been 14 hours, it would have been somewhere around 112 to cast it without preparation. Can you see an easy way to balance shorter prep time vs. preventing "spell point casting"? Hows this idea: Cut out the previous hours=levelxwisdom wildshape thing: Put back the old one, 1/day, 2/day etc. and the old time limit: hours equal to druid level, times by number of shifts allowed. The druid can now shift in only 1-5(or more if you want) times a day, thus limiting the 'healed' effect, and gets a shorter time to burn for his powers. At high levels, like twenty now, the druid can shift in, say 5 times, with a total number of 100 hours. He now has a very limited number of high power spells he can burn those hours on, and you could just give the druid fire a range boost maybe to make up like to 60ft. This perhaps won't stop 'spellpoint casting' but it will limit it greatly, and quite possibly force the class to use the hours only on low level spells leaving the high level spells for prep'ing. If I'm going to limit the number of shapes, as opposed to whatever the druid wants, should I get rid of the "shapes studied" part so the druid can choose any form? ("Well, I spent time up in the north, so of course I know what a polar bear is!") (And? He would, but he needs to know more than just what it looks like otherwise I could have a druid get a big book of dinosaurs...) If you limit the number of shapes, he would still need to have studied it, so as to know exactly what hes going to take the form of of. This what I mean, a limit on shapes acts an extra limit to the previous limit of shapes he's familar with.
Eldritch_Lord 01-01-07, 04:56 PM	Wild shape is too complex. I don't want to keep track of the extra 0.6 rounds of wild shape time expended. Especially not for a guy with HOURS. The increments aren't really that small; the minimum a druid would spend at once would be a few minutes, not on the order of rounds. Druid Fire is too good at low levels. the cost to pump up the damage is very small, and the damage is significantly better than a Warlock's when fully pumped. Also, having a fixed range might be less confusing. Part of the problem here is its a weak attack base, but can be pumped up for almost every shot at the moment. I would suggest leaving it for now since it does give a secondary attack, but leaving it as a secondary thing rather than the primary attack it was intended as. Single shot short-ranged attacks will not be viable as primary attacks at high levels. *snip* The druid fire itself is not a problem on this, what I mean is, the warlock has its blast, and a bunch of abilities at will giving it much more flexibility. The druid here however, has none of this flexibility, it simply has a burning pop-gun it will be running on foot to use. I think instead of 30ft + # per minute of wild shape expended, I'll make it short range (25+5ft/level) to make it easier on everyone. To emphasize the fact that it's a secondary attack, I think I'll get rid of the base damage and make the druid pay for each d4 instead of having the ability to toss off a couple of d6s of damage at will. Finally, I worked on a similar spellcasting mechanic once: you could prepare one spell per day. One suggestion--if you give the druid limited spell slots, people will accept it much more readily since there's much less potential for abuse. If you give him as many slots as a PHB Druid, he probably won't ever have time to fill them all, anwyay, but some people will breathe easier. I'll hold off on limiting spell slots for the time being; I'm not sure if I want to do that. I'm afraid I can't think of any limit for minimum use that gives a good flavour to it, since if you have to spend an hour in wildshape minimum for example, it would make more sense to be more of an effort that way. *snip* Hows this idea: Cut out the previous hours=levelxwisdom wildshape thing: Put back the old one, 1/day, 2/day etc. and the old time limit: hours equal to druid level, times by number of shifts allowed. The druid can now shift in only 1-5(or more if you want) times a day, thus limiting the 'healed' effect, and gets a shorter time to burn for his powers. At high levels, like twenty now, the druid can shift in, say 5 times, with a total number of 100 hours. He now has a very limited number of high power spells he can burn those hours on, and you could just give the druid fire a range boost maybe to make up like to 60ft. This perhaps won't stop 'spellpoint casting' but it will limit it greatly, and quite possibly force the class to use the hours only on low level spells leaving the high level spells for prep'ing. What do you think about 1 time/day per two levels, with maximum of (Wis score) hours per shift, getting rid of the penalty for shifting in/out but keeping the penalty for other forms? This works out to ~1/2 * Wis * level, allowing more uses per day than the PHB druid without the total flexibility of the original. This might max out at 180 hours for a 20th level, 18 Wis druid, which matches a 20th level PHB druid, with fewer hours if the druid uses elemental or aspect of nature forms. I'll edit this in for now until I get feedback on it. To combat "spellpoint" casting, I could make the unprepared casting time have a greater muliplier; I'll make it 4*preparation time unless anyone has a problem with that. If you limit the number of shapes, he would still need to have studied it, so as to know exactly what hes going to take the form of of. This what I mean, a limit on shapes acts an extra limit to the previous limit of shapes he's familar with. Good point; "familiar shapes" is back in.