A New Vision of Clerics [Archive] - Wizards Community

A New Vision of Clerics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Delfedd
02-20-08, 12:33 PM I have been reading the Iliad recently, and it has occurred to me that the heroes of this story are actually divine casters! No, they don't go around in full plate wielding maces and waving holy symbols around, but most of the gods have a favored hero who they decide to help out during the combat. Hector is swept away from Ajax's blows, Hephaestus saves Menaleas from certain death. Save for arcane casters, my new view of the Trojan war

Of course, we need a new ruleset for these "hero-clerics," for no other reason other than the fact that Aeneas doesn't go around healing all the Trojans. Perhaps Archivists from Heroes of Horror better represent those adept at healing and divining omens. Instead of the Hero-Clerics gaining the ability to cure or inflict at will, perhaps the ability to cast Domain spells at will is much more appropriate?

Overall, changing the idea of what a cleric is will help greatly with making them far more playable.
pigknight
02-20-08, 02:05 PM Combat Cleric of a god: 1. See Favored Soul 2. Has War domain.
M-bark
02-20-08, 02:11 PM Combat Cleric of a god: 1. See Favored Soul 2. Has War domain.

Except that, you know, those hero-clerics the OP is referring to never actually cast spells themselves, and were way more combat-orientated than a Cleric with War domain, even though they did not wear full plate or the like.
Delfedd
02-20-08, 02:28 PM Exactly. These "Hero-Clerics" (I'd say they have the Cleric class, possibly multiclassing into fighter) are by no means all clerics of Ares or Athena. Aeneas was a Hero of Aphrodite, and she swept down with a mist cloud to protect him.

Whats more, all the gods seem to use similar methods when helping their servants.

When the Hero-Clerics are aided by their gods, they don't attack and then are aided, instead their god swoops down to protect them and such. It'd cast the same time, and an arcane or divine caster (or anyone with ranks in spellcraft) would notice the telltale signs of a deity about to grant aid.
CryoSilver
02-20-08, 02:31 PM How about Crusader?
InkBlot
02-20-08, 02:38 PM Try the Crusader class. A Crusader is a warrior who's faith keeps her standing even when she should be dead, and who's courage inspires her allies to greater feats of heroism.

A Crusader can heal, if you build her with the proper Devoted Spirit maneuvers, but only by providing the motivation to keep on fighting despite the pain. Crusaders can't walk around after the battle is over healing the wounds of the fallen.

Crusaders have the favor of the gods, but don't cast spells, and don't have any particular power over undead.
StruckingFuggle
02-20-08, 02:45 PM Sounds like a non-spellcasting Paladin, to me, rather than a Cleric.

So, yeah. Second or third the mention of Crusader.
JulesCARV
02-20-08, 06:06 PM You don't have to be a cleric to be favored or screwed around by the gods. A pious, divinely-favored barbarian can have Erythnul intervene on his behalf. He won't be able to regularly cast spells or rebuke undead, but he could have visions of his deity or have the deity subtly manipulate things in his favor at the DM's discretion -- just as a cleric could have visions of his deity or have the deity subtly manipulate things in his favor at the DM's discretion, although there are no formal rules for such events for either class.

You could have rogues or fighters whose fanatical devotion to their deities puts most clerics to shame, or who receive personal attention (not just routine granted spells) from their deities beyond what most clerics receive.
StruckingFuggle
02-20-08, 06:43 PM Also, Domain Devotion feats.
Legdiwena
02-20-08, 09:11 PM Domain spells at will sounds unbalancing.

Air: Chain Lightning, Whirlwind, Elemental Swarm
Death: Destruction, Wail of the Banshee
Destruction: Harm, Disintegrate, Implosion
Fire: Fire Storm, Incendiary CLoud, Elemental Swarm

Need I continue?
StruckingFuggle
02-20-08, 10:10 PM Domain spells at will sounds unbalancing.

Especially if you get two.

Necropolitan Supercleric with Destruction and War, baby ...

Flamestrike! Flamestrike! Harm! FLAMESTRIKE!

Oh, you hurt me? HARM FOR HEALING!

... very much want. But understand why can't have. D:
Delfedd
02-21-08, 01:13 AM Oh.

By domain spells at will, I meant Domain spells in exchange for other spells of the same

Maybe this is the wrong board to be posting this under. Maybe campaign is more what I'm looking for.

What I'm saying for Hero Clerics is that they are exactly the same as normal clerics, save for the fact that instead of spontaneous heal spells they get spontaneous domain spells (From their two base domains).

I don't own Book of Nine Swords, or Complete Champion.

In addition, the god's chosen heroes always seem weaker than the heroes who are devoted to fighting. Hector would have been killed by a simple bowman if Apollo hadn't protected him (Cast protection from arrows)

All that i'm suggesting is that clerics don't have to do the classic wizardy thing of waving the hands and saying a loud prayer. If you're looking for a more mythic feeling to the campaign, this is what you're looking for.
riddles
02-21-08, 04:12 AM there is an alternative class feature that swaps spontaneous cure/cause wounds spells for spontaneous domain spells.
Delfedd
02-21-08, 08:21 AM Yes. And that is what I am suggesting.
seventh_scroll
02-21-08, 10:23 AM >.> You could also swap Turn/Rebuke for Divine Grace. Cha bonus on all saves always seemed a little like divine intervention to me. Alternately, would Cha bonus to AC be unbalanced?
M-bark
02-21-08, 10:30 AM >.> You could also swap Turn/Rebuke for Divine Grace. Cha bonus on all saves always seemed a little like divine intervention to me. Alternately, would Cha bonus to AC be unbalanced?

What you're describing is much like the Simple Variant of the Cleric in Unearthed Arcana: Turn/Rebuke Undead swapped from Smite Evil/Good. Also, most beings who get a Cha bonus to AC are incorporeal or fey. As a class feature (especially when combined with the Monk's Wis bonus to AD) it might be unbalanced.
seventh_scroll
02-21-08, 10:43 AM You could make the bonus apply only when wielding the Deity's favored weapon, or when attacked by the opposed alignment, just to balance it a bit.

In any case, having a deity watching your back should be a big deal. I think this should be a PrC rather than a base class. The gods don't intervene for just anyone who prays to them, and even singularly devoted followers are sometimes ignored. You have to do something to show your deity that you are worth it.
Delfedd
02-21-08, 02:43 PM I'm not suggesting that this is good for every setting, where the gods seem distant. It's more of a Campaign decision than anything else.

I do like the divine grace thing, it seems like a good idea.

And a Shield of Faith works well for defending heroes and such.
Legdiwena
02-21-08, 04:06 PM For cheese, dex > ac (as usual), wis > ac (as monk), con > ac (as fist of the forest), cha > ac (as your variant or saint template).
LSMFT
02-21-08, 05:10 PM I thought the "cleric" in the Iliad was Chryses? Brought the whole Greek army down with a plague.
Grod_The_Giant
02-21-08, 05:27 PM I agree with the Crusader.
Delfedd
02-21-08, 05:34 PM I thought the "cleric" in the Iliad was Chryses? Brought the whole Greek army down with a plague.

That's right. But what I'm suggesting is that Chryses was actually an Archivist. He does not take place in the battle in any way, and cannot fight. This is in line with the Archivist. However, a Cleric has the ability to use spears and such, and aren't likely to stay inside and play while everyone else is fighting a war.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delfedd 02-20-08, 12:33 PM	I have been reading the Iliad recently, and it has occurred to me that the heroes of this story are actually divine casters! No, they don't go around in full plate wielding maces and waving holy symbols around, but most of the gods have a favored hero who they decide to help out during the combat. Hector is swept away from Ajax's blows, Hephaestus saves Menaleas from certain death. Save for arcane casters, my new view of the Trojan war Of course, we need a new ruleset for these "hero-clerics," for no other reason other than the fact that Aeneas doesn't go around healing all the Trojans. Perhaps Archivists from Heroes of Horror better represent those adept at healing and divining omens. Instead of the Hero-Clerics gaining the ability to cure or inflict at will, perhaps the ability to cast Domain spells at will is much more appropriate? Overall, changing the idea of what a cleric is will help greatly with making them far more playable.
pigknight 02-20-08, 02:05 PM	Combat Cleric of a god: 1. See Favored Soul 2. Has War domain.
M-bark 02-20-08, 02:11 PM	Combat Cleric of a god: 1. See Favored Soul 2. Has War domain. Except that, you know, those hero-clerics the OP is referring to never actually cast spells themselves, and were way more combat-orientated than a Cleric with War domain, even though they did not wear full plate or the like.
Delfedd 02-20-08, 02:28 PM	Exactly. These "Hero-Clerics" (I'd say they have the Cleric class, possibly multiclassing into fighter) are by no means all clerics of Ares or Athena. Aeneas was a Hero of Aphrodite, and she swept down with a mist cloud to protect him. Whats more, all the gods seem to use similar methods when helping their servants. When the Hero-Clerics are aided by their gods, they don't attack and then are aided, instead their god swoops down to protect them and such. It'd cast the same time, and an arcane or divine caster (or anyone with ranks in spellcraft) would notice the telltale signs of a deity about to grant aid.
CryoSilver 02-20-08, 02:31 PM	How about Crusader?
InkBlot 02-20-08, 02:38 PM	Try the Crusader class. A Crusader is a warrior who's faith keeps her standing even when she should be dead, and who's courage inspires her allies to greater feats of heroism. A Crusader can heal, if you build her with the proper Devoted Spirit maneuvers, but only by providing the motivation to keep on fighting despite the pain. Crusaders can't walk around after the battle is over healing the wounds of the fallen. Crusaders have the favor of the gods, but don't cast spells, and don't have any particular power over undead.
StruckingFuggle 02-20-08, 02:45 PM	Sounds like a non-spellcasting Paladin, to me, rather than a Cleric. So, yeah. Second or third the mention of Crusader.
JulesCARV 02-20-08, 06:06 PM	You don't have to be a cleric to be favored or screwed around by the gods. A pious, divinely-favored barbarian can have Erythnul intervene on his behalf. He won't be able to regularly cast spells or rebuke undead, but he could have visions of his deity or have the deity subtly manipulate things in his favor at the DM's discretion -- just as a cleric could have visions of his deity or have the deity subtly manipulate things in his favor at the DM's discretion, although there are no formal rules for such events for either class. You could have rogues or fighters whose fanatical devotion to their deities puts most clerics to shame, or who receive personal attention (not just routine granted spells) from their deities beyond what most clerics receive.
StruckingFuggle 02-20-08, 06:43 PM	Also, Domain Devotion feats.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 09:11 PM	Domain spells at will sounds unbalancing. Air: Chain Lightning, Whirlwind, Elemental Swarm Death: Destruction, Wail of the Banshee Destruction: Harm, Disintegrate, Implosion Fire: Fire Storm, Incendiary CLoud, Elemental Swarm Need I continue?
StruckingFuggle 02-20-08, 10:10 PM	Domain spells at will sounds unbalancing. Especially if you get two. Necropolitan Supercleric with Destruction and War, baby ... Flamestrike! Flamestrike! Harm! FLAMESTRIKE! Oh, you hurt me? HARM FOR HEALING! ... very much want. But understand why can't have. D:
Delfedd 02-21-08, 01:13 AM	Oh. By domain spells at will, I meant Domain spells in exchange for other spells of the same Maybe this is the wrong board to be posting this under. Maybe campaign is more what I'm looking for. What I'm saying for Hero Clerics is that they are exactly the same as normal clerics, save for the fact that instead of spontaneous heal spells they get spontaneous domain spells (From their two base domains). I don't own Book of Nine Swords, or Complete Champion. In addition, the god's chosen heroes always seem weaker than the heroes who are devoted to fighting. Hector would have been killed by a simple bowman if Apollo hadn't protected him (Cast protection from arrows) All that i'm suggesting is that clerics don't have to do the classic wizardy thing of waving the hands and saying a loud prayer. If you're looking for a more mythic feeling to the campaign, this is what you're looking for.
riddles 02-21-08, 04:12 AM	there is an alternative class feature that swaps spontaneous cure/cause wounds spells for spontaneous domain spells.
Delfedd 02-21-08, 08:21 AM	Yes. And that is what I am suggesting.
seventh_scroll 02-21-08, 10:23 AM	>.> You could also swap Turn/Rebuke for Divine Grace. Cha bonus on all saves always seemed a little like divine intervention to me. Alternately, would Cha bonus to AC be unbalanced?
M-bark 02-21-08, 10:30 AM	>.> You could also swap Turn/Rebuke for Divine Grace. Cha bonus on all saves always seemed a little like divine intervention to me. Alternately, would Cha bonus to AC be unbalanced? What you're describing is much like the Simple Variant of the Cleric in Unearthed Arcana: Turn/Rebuke Undead swapped from Smite Evil/Good. Also, most beings who get a Cha bonus to AC are incorporeal or fey. As a class feature (especially when combined with the Monk's Wis bonus to AD) it might be unbalanced.
seventh_scroll 02-21-08, 10:43 AM	You could make the bonus apply only when wielding the Deity's favored weapon, or when attacked by the opposed alignment, just to balance it a bit. In any case, having a deity watching your back should be a big deal. I think this should be a PrC rather than a base class. The gods don't intervene for just anyone who prays to them, and even singularly devoted followers are sometimes ignored. You have to do something to show your deity that you are worth it.
Delfedd 02-21-08, 02:43 PM	I'm not suggesting that this is good for every setting, where the gods seem distant. It's more of a Campaign decision than anything else. I do like the divine grace thing, it seems like a good idea. And a Shield of Faith works well for defending heroes and such.
Legdiwena 02-21-08, 04:06 PM	For cheese, dex > ac (as usual), wis > ac (as monk), con > ac (as fist of the forest), cha > ac (as your variant or saint template).
LSMFT 02-21-08, 05:10 PM	I thought the "cleric" in the Iliad was Chryses? Brought the whole Greek army down with a plague.
Grod_The_Giant 02-21-08, 05:27 PM	I agree with the Crusader.
Delfedd 02-21-08, 05:34 PM	I thought the "cleric" in the Iliad was Chryses? Brought the whole Greek army down with a plague. That's right. But what I'm suggesting is that Chryses was actually an Archivist. He does not take place in the battle in any way, and cannot fight. This is in line with the Archivist. However, a Cleric has the ability to use spears and such, and aren't likely to stay inside and play while everyone else is fighting a war.