A new way of multiclassing! (Please Critique) [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new way of multiclassing! (Please Critique) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jejyman
12-23-05, 10:29 PM Here is a new type of multiclassing. Just a new way of looking at it. In all respects it still works as multiclassing. Except for two things, First there are no multiclass penalties in experience, and when you take a new level you take the special ability of your new level and everything else as normal. Kind of confusing but let me show you.

Let's take Johnny he is a 3rd level Elf. In his first level he took Fighter recieving the bonus feat. At second level he took Ranger recieving Combat Style. At third level he took Rogue and obtained Sneak Attack +1d6, trap sense +1.

Another thing, when taking something that adds 1d6 to damage or a second level of something like Improved uncanny dodge, if you don't have the previous step for it you only get the previous step instead of it. So like Johnny the elf he only gets 1d6 of sneak attack instead of 2d6 because he didn't have the previous. This also works with things like rage or wild shape, the first time you take it you only get 1/day. So just remember if there is a previous step to a skill, you must have that previous step first and if you don't the previous step will replace the new one (ie if you where to try to get Improved Uncanny Dodge before you had Uncanny dodge, you would recieve uncanny dodge instead of Improved uncanny dodge).

What do you guys think?
tiluvias99
12-23-05, 10:58 PM horribly broken. At 17th level, every single character takes a level of a caser class and gets a full spell list. At 18th, they grab another caster and get another full spell list. At 11th level, a character takes a level of monk and grabs Improved FoB. They also grab a level of Druid and go crazy with wildshape, in addition to spellcasting. They grab barbarian at 20th level and get greater rage.

The abuses are incredible. It seems like it would work with the more martial classes, because most of the time the later levels give about the same benefit as the earlier levels. But with every other type (like spell casters), the power level rises exponentially (as opposed to linearly).
jejyman
12-24-05, 01:52 AM To get Greater Rage you would have to first get rage 1/day then rage 2/day and so on. With things like that you have to have already gotten the prereqs. I said all this in the first post I appoligize if it wasn't clear.

Spell lists would work like sneak attack and you would have to get the 1st level of the spell list before getting the next level and you would have to progress just like you would normally. The only thing that changes is the special abilities.

With this you still can't have everything, but it widens the spectrum of things you can have.
red_scare87
12-24-05, 02:06 AM A question to the OP: What about the normal XP penalties associated with multi-classing? Also, what would you do with Prestige Classes? Would they work the same way?

I mean, it's not a terrible idea, but it needs some fleshing out. I mean a lot of fleshing out.
jejyman
12-24-05, 02:17 AM Yeah it was a spur of the moment idea that i needed to get out.
Prestige Classes since they are meant to start their 1st level late game, they will always start at 1st level including special abilities. I think that if this worked for PrCs it would be beyond too good. So it should stick with just the 20-level Classes.
jejyman
12-24-05, 02:23 AM The reason for taking away the XP penalties for multiclassing is to encourage ppl to multiclass. With this way of leveling it is nearly required you do it or you will be behind. So taking away the penalty for doing something you are supposed to do, I think is fair.
Borris
12-24-05, 02:39 AM Take a fighter, and replace all odd levels above 2 with a level of barbarian. What you end up with is a character that has the same BAB, saves, proficiencies, and bonus feats as a fighter, but gets more hp, more skill points, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge, damage reduction 3/-, greater rage, and tireless rage (or rage 2/day if you replace the last two with the first two rage abilities). Sounds like a good deal?

You could also take a level of rogue at every off level and fighter at every even level and get a +10d6 sneak attack as well as 10 fighter bonus feats, as well as trap sense +3 and two rogue special abilities. Not bad either.

And what about prestige classes? Can I take a PrC and choose to take the 10th level right away? Since many PrC give their best ability at the very end, that kind of cherry picking could be very profitable.
jejyman
12-24-05, 02:44 AM Prestige Classes since they are meant to start their 1st level late game, they will always start at 1st level including special abilities. I think that if this worked for PrCs it would be beyond too good. So it should stick with just the 20-level Classes.
jejyman
12-24-05, 12:08 PM tryed to clear up the rules abit. Hopefully that helps.
farfairer
12-24-05, 12:48 PM I have to agree with Borris. I think this is broken.

The way the rules are writen a character who takes levels in the following progression:

Fighter
Fighter
Ranger
Fighter
Ranger
Fighter
Ranger
Fighter
Ranger
Fighter

Looks like this:
BAB: 10
Fort Save: +9
Ref Save: +6
Will Save: +3
Fighter Bonus Feats: 6
Ranger Abilities:1st Favoed Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style, Endurance, Animal Companion, 0 first level spells

Using jejyman's Multiclassing rules this character would instead look like this:
BAB: 10
Fort Save: +9
Ref Save: +6
Will Save: +3
Fighter Bonus Feats: 6
Ranger Abilities:Endurance, 1st Favored Enemy, Woodland Stride, Evasion, 1 first level spell, 1 second level spell

Now granted you loose out on some abilites, but thats fine. The abilites you get when you can pick and choose what you get and when are far better. As a 10th level character who is fighter 6/ Ranger 4, I would much prefer having evasion and woodland stride to track and wild empathy.

It also allows for builds like this:

Monk
Paladin
Druid
Fighter
Druid
Druid
Ranger
Druid
Ranger
Rouge

This build grants the following if using jejyman's Multiclassing rules:
BAB: 7
Fort Save: +13
Ref Save: +7
Will Save: +4
Class abilities: Improved Unarmed Combat, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (at CHA*1), Trackless Step, Fighter Bonus Feat, Wild Shape (any 4 HD animal size small to large for 4 hours/2 times a day), Woodland Stride, Evasion, Any 1 Rogue Special Ability (Improved Evasion or Opportunist being my first choices), Five 0th level Druid spells, three 1st level Druid spells, and two second level druid spells.
jejyman
12-24-05, 01:49 PM It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal.

The spells should be the same. Spells progress as they do normally, or else this would be really broken.

I was thinking that this could be an interesting way to do arena (pvp) style battles. And also an interesting way to do campaignes.
Schmendrick
12-24-05, 03:42 PM It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal.
Yes, but no. Most definitely no. There are different degrees to which someone can be "broken." But more importantly, this method rewards different class combinations significantly more than others. Class with unique class features (like Rangers or Monks) benefit far more than other classes (like Wizard, since you seem to be suggesting that under your system each level of a casting class only grants benefits similar to PrC "+1 level" for spells/day / spells/known. As already proposed, come builds cry out for abuse. Why not simply make every even level a Fighter level (especially if for classes with "dead" levels). Why bother with Barbarian 6 if you can swap out one point of Trap Sense for a feat? Or Paladin 8/12/14/16? You give up nothing but (half of a) caster level and gain a feat. On the other hand, why EVER play a fighter as your "main" class? You'd never, ever take fighter for any level where you didn't get a feat (unless you were just THAT desperate to get 4 levels of it early on for Weapon Spec).

It is interesting, I'll give you that. But you're probably better off using a version of the gestalt variant... if you're afraid of gestalt (because it really can do odd things to a campaign), then consider restricting it: say, your "gestalted secondary" class has to be either Fighter, Rogue, or Sorceror. Or that multiclass penalties apply as though every specific combination of classes counts as a different class (including PrC's).
farfairer
12-24-05, 06:23 PM It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal.

That's not true. Everything being equally broken does not make everything equally balanced.

Under your system, a character who wants to be a caster is hosed. Because casters follow the normal rules, but non-casters get a huge bonus.

With this system a fighter/barbarian/rouge/ranger/scout/hexblade can be not only an effective character, but an amazingly overpoweringly deadly character.

But a wizard is just a normal wizard and gets no benfits from this system.

While my 10th level conglomeration has a huge number of hand picked abilities (like evasion, and metal, as well as uncanny dodge, Improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion), your wizard has 5th level spells.
jejyman
12-26-05, 01:53 AM but if you did spell lists the same way, at level 17 18 and 19 you would just pick up three spellcasters and have three nearlly full if not fuill spell lists and THAT would be overpowered.

Also with this format you wouldn't choose wizard and only wizard, due to the benifits gained if you multiclass.

Now if someone could think of a way to fix the spellist problem that would be cool.

Some things that have popped into my head are maybe you get the new spells that caster class would get from the new level. So instead of a full spell list you might get 3 spells. Maybe that would work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jejyman 12-23-05, 10:29 PM	Here is a new type of multiclassing. Just a new way of looking at it. In all respects it still works as multiclassing. Except for two things, First there are no multiclass penalties in experience, and when you take a new level you take the special ability of your new level and everything else as normal. Kind of confusing but let me show you. Let's take Johnny he is a 3rd level Elf. In his first level he took Fighter recieving the bonus feat. At second level he took Ranger recieving Combat Style. At third level he took Rogue and obtained Sneak Attack +1d6, trap sense +1. Another thing, when taking something that adds 1d6 to damage or a second level of something like Improved uncanny dodge, if you don't have the previous step for it you only get the previous step instead of it. So like Johnny the elf he only gets 1d6 of sneak attack instead of 2d6 because he didn't have the previous. This also works with things like rage or wild shape, the first time you take it you only get 1/day. So just remember if there is a previous step to a skill, you must have that previous step first and if you don't the previous step will replace the new one (ie if you where to try to get Improved Uncanny Dodge before you had Uncanny dodge, you would recieve uncanny dodge instead of Improved uncanny dodge). What do you guys think?
tiluvias99 12-23-05, 10:58 PM	horribly broken. At 17th level, every single character takes a level of a caser class and gets a full spell list. At 18th, they grab another caster and get another full spell list. At 11th level, a character takes a level of monk and grabs Improved FoB. They also grab a level of Druid and go crazy with wildshape, in addition to spellcasting. They grab barbarian at 20th level and get greater rage. The abuses are incredible. It seems like it would work with the more martial classes, because most of the time the later levels give about the same benefit as the earlier levels. But with every other type (like spell casters), the power level rises exponentially (as opposed to linearly).
jejyman 12-24-05, 01:52 AM	To get Greater Rage you would have to first get rage 1/day then rage 2/day and so on. With things like that you have to have already gotten the prereqs. I said all this in the first post I appoligize if it wasn't clear. Spell lists would work like sneak attack and you would have to get the 1st level of the spell list before getting the next level and you would have to progress just like you would normally. The only thing that changes is the special abilities. With this you still can't have everything, but it widens the spectrum of things you can have.
red_scare87 12-24-05, 02:06 AM	A question to the OP: What about the normal XP penalties associated with multi-classing? Also, what would you do with Prestige Classes? Would they work the same way? I mean, it's not a terrible idea, but it needs some fleshing out. I mean a lot of fleshing out.
jejyman 12-24-05, 02:17 AM	Yeah it was a spur of the moment idea that i needed to get out. Prestige Classes since they are meant to start their 1st level late game, they will always start at 1st level including special abilities. I think that if this worked for PrCs it would be beyond too good. So it should stick with just the 20-level Classes.
jejyman 12-24-05, 02:23 AM	The reason for taking away the XP penalties for multiclassing is to encourage ppl to multiclass. With this way of leveling it is nearly required you do it or you will be behind. So taking away the penalty for doing something you are supposed to do, I think is fair.
Borris 12-24-05, 02:39 AM	Take a fighter, and replace all odd levels above 2 with a level of barbarian. What you end up with is a character that has the same BAB, saves, proficiencies, and bonus feats as a fighter, but gets more hp, more skill points, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge, damage reduction 3/-, greater rage, and tireless rage (or rage 2/day if you replace the last two with the first two rage abilities). Sounds like a good deal? You could also take a level of rogue at every off level and fighter at every even level and get a +10d6 sneak attack as well as 10 fighter bonus feats, as well as trap sense +3 and two rogue special abilities. Not bad either. And what about prestige classes? Can I take a PrC and choose to take the 10th level right away? Since many PrC give their best ability at the very end, that kind of cherry picking could be very profitable.
jejyman 12-24-05, 02:44 AM	Prestige Classes since they are meant to start their 1st level late game, they will always start at 1st level including special abilities. I think that if this worked for PrCs it would be beyond too good. So it should stick with just the 20-level Classes.
jejyman 12-24-05, 12:08 PM	tryed to clear up the rules abit. Hopefully that helps.
farfairer 12-24-05, 12:48 PM	I have to agree with Borris. I think this is broken. The way the rules are writen a character who takes levels in the following progression: Fighter Fighter Ranger Fighter Ranger Fighter Ranger Fighter Ranger Fighter Looks like this: BAB: 10 Fort Save: +9 Ref Save: +6 Will Save: +3 Fighter Bonus Feats: 6 Ranger Abilities:1st Favoed Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style, Endurance, Animal Companion, 0 first level spells Using jejyman's Multiclassing rules this character would instead look like this: BAB: 10 Fort Save: +9 Ref Save: +6 Will Save: +3 Fighter Bonus Feats: 6 Ranger Abilities:Endurance, 1st Favored Enemy, Woodland Stride, Evasion, 1 first level spell, 1 second level spell Now granted you loose out on some abilites, but thats fine. The abilites you get when you can pick and choose what you get and when are far better. As a 10th level character who is fighter 6/ Ranger 4, I would much prefer having evasion and woodland stride to track and wild empathy. It also allows for builds like this: Monk Paladin Druid Fighter Druid Druid Ranger Druid Ranger Rouge This build grants the following if using jejyman's Multiclassing rules: BAB: 7 Fort Save: +13 Ref Save: +7 Will Save: +4 Class abilities: Improved Unarmed Combat, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands (at CHA*1), Trackless Step, Fighter Bonus Feat, Wild Shape (any 4 HD animal size small to large for 4 hours/2 times a day), Woodland Stride, Evasion, Any 1 Rogue Special Ability (Improved Evasion or Opportunist being my first choices), Five 0th level Druid spells, three 1st level Druid spells, and two second level druid spells.
jejyman 12-24-05, 01:49 PM	It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal. The spells should be the same. Spells progress as they do normally, or else this would be really broken. I was thinking that this could be an interesting way to do arena (pvp) style battles. And also an interesting way to do campaignes.
Schmendrick 12-24-05, 03:42 PM	It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal. Yes, but no. Most definitely no. There are different degrees to which someone can be "broken." But more importantly, this method rewards different class combinations significantly more than others. Class with unique class features (like Rangers or Monks) benefit far more than other classes (like Wizard, since you seem to be suggesting that under your system each level of a casting class only grants benefits similar to PrC "+1 level" for spells/day / spells/known. As already proposed, come builds cry out for abuse. Why not simply make every even level a Fighter level (especially if for classes with "dead" levels). Why bother with Barbarian 6 if you can swap out one point of Trap Sense for a feat? Or Paladin 8/12/14/16? You give up nothing but (half of a) caster level and gain a feat. On the other hand, why EVER play a fighter as your "main" class? You'd never, ever take fighter for any level where you didn't get a feat (unless you were just THAT desperate to get 4 levels of it early on for Weapon Spec). It is interesting, I'll give you that. But you're probably better off using a version of the gestalt variant... if you're afraid of gestalt (because it really can do odd things to a campaign), then consider restricting it: say, your "gestalted secondary" class has to be either Fighter, Rogue, or Sorceror. Or that multiclass penalties apply as though every specific combination of classes counts as a different class (including PrC's).
farfairer 12-24-05, 06:23 PM	It is supposed to be broken. But if everyone is broken the game is equal. That's not true. Everything being equally broken does not make everything equally balanced. Under your system, a character who wants to be a caster is hosed. Because casters follow the normal rules, but non-casters get a huge bonus. With this system a fighter/barbarian/rouge/ranger/scout/hexblade can be not only an effective character, but an amazingly overpoweringly deadly character. But a wizard is just a normal wizard and gets no benfits from this system. While my 10th level conglomeration has a huge number of hand picked abilities (like evasion, and metal, as well as uncanny dodge, Improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion), your wizard has 5th level spells.
jejyman 12-26-05, 01:53 AM	but if you did spell lists the same way, at level 17 18 and 19 you would just pick up three spellcasters and have three nearlly full if not fuill spell lists and THAT would be overpowered. Also with this format you wouldn't choose wizard and only wizard, due to the benifits gained if you multiclass. Now if someone could think of a way to fix the spellist problem that would be cool. Some things that have popped into my head are maybe you get the new spells that caster class would get from the new level. So instead of a full spell list you might get 3 spells. Maybe that would work.