Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rule of Three 06-20-04, 11:23 AM	SWASHBUCKLER Hit Die: d8. Class Skills The swashbuckler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge(nobility and royalty), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Good BAB Medium Fortitude, Good Reflex, Poor Will 1st Fast movement, Weapon Finesse 2nd Uncanny dodge 3rd 4th Parry 5th 6th Improved uncanny dodge 7th 8th Evasion 9th 10th Special Ability 11th 12th Improved Parry 13th 14th Special Ability 15th 16th Riposte 17th 18th Special Ability 19th 20th Greater Parry Class Features All of the following are class features of the swashbuckler. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light armor. Fast Movement (Ex): A swashbuckler's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the swashbuckler's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a swashbuckler already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Parry(Ex): At 4th level or higher, the swashbuckler may, during an attack or full attack action, choose to hold one of his attacks as a parry. If the opponent who suffered the attack successfully hits him during the next round, the swashbuckler may make an opposed attack roll (at the same bonus as the forgone attack) to avoid damage Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 6th level and higher, a swashbuckler can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a swashbuckler the ability to sneak attack the swashbuckler by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has swashbuckler levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Evasion (Ex): At 8th level or higher if a swashbuckler makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a swashbuckler is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion. Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every for levels thereafter (14th, and 18th), a swashbuckler gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options. Defensive Roll (Ex): The swashbuckler can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the swashbuckler can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the swashbuckler must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll-if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the swashbuckler's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. Great Finesse (Ex): The swashbuckler may use Weapon Finesse with any one handed or light weapon. When using a weapon normally usable with Weapon Finesse, he may add his Intelligence modifier to damage. Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the swashbuckler still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the swashbuckler's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a swashbuckler with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw. Feat: A swashbuckler may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability. Improved Parry(Ex): At 12th level or higher, the swashbuckler may hold more than one attack from a full attack action. The parry is still made at the same bonus as the attack would have been. Riposte(Ex): After 16th level, the swashbuckler may, upon a successful parry, take an attack of opportunity against the opponent who attacked. Even with the Combat Reflexes feat, this can only be done once a round. Greater Parry(Ex): At 20th level, the swashbuckler may parry one attack at his highest attack bonus every round. He may still forfeit attacks to gain additional opportunities to parry.
Basic_Set 06-20-04, 12:37 PM	Ok, here are my comments: What are good/medium/poor saves? Base classes only have good or poor saves, AFAIK. Although I understand what you want to arrive at here. Trap Sense - doesn't fit my understanding of a Swashbuckler, but that's just me. Parry: This is a standard action? So how can it be used not during the Swashbuckler's turn? (I assume it uses up an action from his next turn? This should be explained.) But anyhow this ability seems overpowered. I would give the Swashbuckler the Combat Expertise feat for free, which is meant to simulate parrying. Reducing the attack bonus to a Rogue/Cleric would be more balanced. Otherwise this seems too powerful. Compared to a fighter, he has -1hp/level and less armor (easily fixed with a feat), but gains a useful feat or feat-like ability 2 out of three levels (while fighters get feats every other level). Plus he has lots of skill points. I would also remove the fast movement, and make his abilities useable only with light armor or no armor (so he won't just take a feat for medium armor).
orcslayer 06-20-04, 07:50 PM	there is a swashbuckler core class in the complete warriors guide.
Rule of Three 06-20-04, 08:37 PM	Ok, here are my comments: What are good/medium/poor saves? Base classes only have good or poor saves, AFAIK. Although I understand what you want to arrive at here. Medium saves progress, thus +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +3 +4 +4 +5 +5 +6 +6 +6 +7 +7 +8 +8 +9 +9 Trap Sense - doesn't fit my understanding of a Swashbuckler, but that's just me. I gave it to him because it is a fairly weak ability that prevents empty levels. I think it suits him just as well as it does the barbarian Parry: This is a standard action? So how can it be used not during the Swashbuckler's turn? (I assume it uses up an action from his next turn? This should be explained.) You presume correctly. I'll try and think of a good way to word it. But anyhow this ability seems overpowered. I would give the Swashbuckler the Combat Expertise feat for free, which is meant to simulate parrying. Why do you think it's overpowered? If the Swashbuckler is fighting an opponent of his level, it should be a roughly 50% chance of avoiding an attack and if the attack is high enoguh to penetrate AC, it'll be hard to parry. If it couldn't hit his AC then the parry is wasted anyway. Untill 10th level, he's giving up his attack that round to do it and untill 16th, he's loosing out on a full attack. Reducing the attack bonus to a Rogue/Cleric would be more balanced. Otherwise this seems too powerful. Compared to a fighter, he has -1hp/level and less armor (easily fixed with a feat), but gains a useful feat or feat-like ability 2 out of three levels (while fighters get feats every other level). Plus he has lots of skill points. If you compare him with a ranger, however, they have roughly comparable skill lists, same HD, same BAB and the same skill points per level. The ranger gets an ability every level untill level 11. The swashbuckler continues to gain special abilities but loses out on spells and some of the ranger's Fortitude save. I would also remove the fast movement, and make his abilities useable only with light armor or no armor (so he won't just take a feat for medium armor). Evasion and Fast Movement already restrict him to light armor. Doing so for parry makes no sense and doing so for uncanny dodge is inconsistant with the Barbarian and the Rogue.
Basic_Set 06-21-04, 03:35 AM	Generally, I still suggest reducing the BAB because I see evasion and uncanny dodge as more powerful than the ranger's abilities. But that may be because I like rogues ;) . As for the Parry special ability, consider what happens when it becomes a free action: give the character a maxed out Tumble skill, and he can standard action attack, then tumble away. This causes him and his opponent to have only standard actions to attack, and the swashbuckler parries the opponent, removing half of his successful hits! This effectively makes the swashbuckler twice as powerful as the opponent (by which I mean that he hits twice as often). So the 15th level version certainly seems overpowered to me. Besides balance, it also complicates combat. I would suggest some variety of the Combat Expertise feat for your class, perhaps improved over the usual version.
kedi 06-21-04, 03:52 AM	Full BAB? 6 + int Skills? Such pretty class feats? A little overpowered IMHO. Make the skills 4 + int and it will be wonderful IMO ;) And parry... I loved it. For my version of the swashbuckler, check my sig, I had a different basic system...
Rule of Three 06-21-04, 07:00 AM	Originally posted by Basic_Set Generally, I still suggest reducing the BAB because I see evasion and uncanny dodge as more powerful than the ranger's abilities. But that may be because I like rogues ;) . Rangers gat evasion at 9th level, Barbarians get uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge at 2nd and 5th. I admit that niether of the gets both but rage and favored enemy are far more powerful iconic abilities than parry(at least at low levels). As for the Parry special ability, consider what happens when it becomes a free action: give the character a maxed out Tumble skill, and he can standard action attack, then tumble away. This causes him and his opponent to have only standard actions to attack, and the swashbuckler parries the opponent, removing half of his successful hits! Not quite. The same roll is used to beat the paeey and the AC. Assuming that they each have +20 attack and AC 30, then unless the Swashbuckler rolls above 10 the parry has no effect. If he does roll above 10, it effectively increases his AC by 1-10 points. It's a cool ability to be sure, but on average no better than the CW's swashbuckler's Dodge bonus. Remember also- it only aplies to one attack from one oponent(unless the swashbuckler has iterative parry) This effectively makes the swashbuckler twice as powerful as the opponent (by which I mean that he hits twice as often). So the 15th level version certainly seems overpowered to me. As I said, not quite. Besides balance, it also complicates combat. I would suggest some variety of the Combat Expertise feat for your class, perhaps improved over the usual version. That seems overly bland to me. I want this class to have an ability that sets it apart from a Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter/Rogue build. Something unique and iteresting. I don't think it complicates combat any more than tripping, grappling or disarming. It's just an opposed check.
Rule of Three 06-21-04, 07:04 AM	Originally posted by kedi Full BAB? 6 + int Skills? Such pretty class feats? A little overpowered IMHO. Make the skills 4 + int and it will be wonderful IMO ;) And parry... I loved it. Interesting.....I originally had it at 4 + Int(I worked from the barbarian). However, it looked a little weak next to the Ranger so I bumped it up to 6. Since the concensus seems to be that it's overpowered, I'll probably drop it back for versin 1.1. Glad you liked parry. For my version of the swashbuckler, check my sig, I had a different basic system... Avast! Lootin' time!;)
Zelphi 06-21-04, 08:31 AM	Couldn't you just take the Duelist PrC?
Rule of Three 06-21-04, 05:09 PM	Zelhphi, my campaign is starting at first level and is based at sea. Thus my need for a core Swashbuckler. I wasn't happy with the CW version so I designed my own.
Nick Soapdish 06-21-04, 05:41 PM	Y'know, it's OK to have some empty levels. I think it might be a bit too heavy, even dropped down to 4 skill points a level. I think it should lose a couple feats/special abilities and I don't especially like the Trap Sense either. (I agree that it's about as appropriate for the swashbuckler as the barbarian. I just don't think it's especially appropriate for either.) If it lost those, I'd put the skill points back up again.
detectevil 06-22-04, 08:29 AM	I mostly like it. But have you consider how Parry will work in game? Let's say the swashbuckler is fighting 3 goblins. He uses his Parry(Standard) to parry one incoming attack. There are still 2 goblins to hit him, and he has no attacks this round. A higher level Swashbuckler is fighting a barbarian. The barbarian has 3 attacks per round. The Swashbuckler has One attack and his Parry(move). Suposing he parries the Barbarians higher attack (a 50-50 chance), the barbarian still has 2 attacks and the Swashbuckler has one. That is near a tie, IMO. Finnaly when it becomes a free action, the Swashbuckler is in good terms. With iterative parry he can block all of a single opponent's attacks and still make 3-4 attacks of his own. Largely overpowered, if I might say. My suggestion would be to get rid of Parry(Free) or limit Iterative Parry to be used only as a Move Action. In addition, I recomend you to allow the Swashbuckler to decide wich attack to parry after the attack roll is made. It is more fun this way. And just for a little touch, I think you should give pre-selected feats. Weapon Finesse at first level, because it is a must (and so the Pre-req for Greater Finesse can go. Special Abilities don't have Pre-reqs), with Spring Attack and other things higher on (remember that a character doesn't have to meet a feats pre-reqs in this way)
Zelphi 06-22-04, 08:34 AM	So now people start off automatically being a swashbuckler when at sea? Why didn't you make a sailor PrC, or use the expert?
Rule of Three 06-22-04, 09:13 AM	detect evil: Those sound like good ideas- essentially, the swashbuckler can parry after the AC has been penetrated and choose which blows to deflect. The iterative parry was a mess-up. It was intended to take a full round action like full attack does. How about this; parrying is always a move action taken after you opponent has rolled his attack roll. At levels 10 and 16, you can parry an additional time per round(still at the cost of only one move action). Iterative Parry gets chucked off the side of the boat. I'll take your suggestion regarding feats on board. Zelphi: Not at all. My group simply want to play as Swshbuckling finnesse fighter-types from first level. Most of the sailors are Warriors. The PCs and major villains will be the Swashbucklers.
detectevil 06-22-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by Rule of Three How about this; parrying is always a move action taken after you opponent has rolled his attack roll. At levels 10 and 16, you can parry an additional time per round(still at the cost of only one move action). Hum, maybe it should at least start as a standard action. After all, a low level character looses nothing from using a move action. You could change it to a Move action at level 10, but let the SB parry once for every attack action he has. You could even add the alternative to use two weapons, and allow the Swashbuckler to parry separately for each weapon, at a -2 penalty. This would allow him to fight two men at once, which is very movie-like.
Rule of Three 06-23-04, 01:06 PM	Updated and slightly weakened. Parry's changed a lot. Skill points dropped. Trapsense gone.
detectevil 06-23-04, 02:41 PM	RIPOSTE!!! :bounce: Great Idea. How about some more Special Abilities: Stop-thrust: The swashbuckler may choose not to parry an attack at all, and instead make an attack roll directly against his attacker AC. On a sucessful hit, the attacker must make a Fortitude Save against DC equal to 10+damage dealt. Failure negates the damage from that attack. This can only be used once per round. Greater Footwork: Inteligence bonus is added to Dexterity Bonus for purpose of Armor Class. The total bonus is limited by armor. Lunge: The Swashbuckler deals +1d6 damage if he charges his foe from a distance of 10ft or less.