Post/Author/DateTime	Post
orcslayer 06-18-04, 01:56 PM	Is it just me or does something not seem right about the paladin? I mean why should he have to be lawful good. Whos to say that lawful good is the best alingment. I think the paladin should have more freedom in picking his alingment. He should be able to pick from Lawful good, neutral good, or chaotic good. Sometimes laws should be broken if they're wrong. The point is good does not always have to obey the laws. A palidin could be in a place were slavery is practiced. And if the law states that it is illegal to free slaves then what would the palidin do, since slavery is wrong. The answer is he couldnt do anything.
BlaineTog 06-18-04, 02:27 PM	Originally posted by orcslayer Is it just me or does something not seem right about the paladin? I mean why should he have to be lawful good. Whos to say that lawful good is the best alingment.Paladins. :D I think the paladin should have more freedom in picking his alingment.Pick up Unearthed Arcana. He should be able to pick from Lawful good, neutral good, or chaotic good.US has CG, CG, and LE paladin variants. Not Neutral Good since the Paladin is supposed to be an extreme, of sorts. Sometimes laws should be broken if they're wrong.So says you. A Paladin of Honor (PHB Paladin) would disagree, although a Paladin of Freedom (UA CG Paladin) would be with you. The point is good does not always have to obey the laws. A palidin could be in a place were slavery is practiced. And if the law states that it is illegal to free slaves then what would the palidin do, since slavery is wrong. The answer is he couldnt do anything. Depends. Do the people making the laws have legitimate authority? Even if they do, the Paladin could still try to get those slaves freed by doing an act of Justice (as apposed to Charity, which isn't longer lasting): getting the laws about slavery revoked by peaceful, lawful methods.
Thorak 06-18-04, 02:45 PM	the various alternate 'paladins' aside, the Paladin in the PHB is the champion of Lawful Good. There are similar champions for other alignment extremes as well; Blackguard is one for Chaotic Evil, and Unearthed Arcana has some other options. But being Lawful Good is absolutely central to what a Paladin is all about; if you don't want your character to be LG, you don't want a Paladin to begin with.
Aohd 06-18-04, 04:06 PM	I think you miss-understanding the concept of lawful. If I am a paladin in the service of a God, mans law does not have very much effect on me. But my God’s law does. The way I play lawful good is an absolute commitment to the teaching of my god. A commitment to the law that my God has given me. You use the example of slavery. Slavery is against my God’s law so mans law be damned. if a law that men have created violates the laws of my God they are invalid and therefore I am not being unlawful when I ignore such a mockery of the true law.
Karrde 06-18-04, 04:12 PM	Exactly, dont make the mistake of thinking lawful good has anything to do with actual laws. What it is really about is disipline and obeying a set of principals. This is true for any lawful character, even the blackguard (who i think is LE, btw) he follows his principals, it's just that their evil.
Lina_Inverse 06-18-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by Aohd I think you miss-understanding the concept of lawful. If I am a paladin in the service of a God, mans law does not have very much effect on me. But my God’s law does. The way I play lawful good is an absolute commitment to the teaching of my god. A commitment to the law that my God has given me. You use the example of slavery. Slavery is against my God’s law so mans law be damned. if a law that men have created violates the laws of my God they are invalid and therefore I am not being unlawful when I ignore such a mockery of the true law. incorrect,paladins code.must respect legitamite authority.you cant get around that. anywho,to the real topic. back in OD&D law was the equivelent of good,and chaos the equivelenet of evil.thus when they added the good/evil axis to the game paladins became lawfull good. on the point of slavery,slavery is NOT evil.evil depends on how you treat your slaves,if there well treated there is little reason for the paladin to remove the institution.if they ARENT well treated the paladins job is to help laws that protect them into place.
Piraatje 06-18-04, 07:57 PM	Legitimate being the keyword here. If authority is NOT legitmate (aka not based on LG principles), laws have **** to do what a Paladin. Therefor, Lawfull has nothing to do with laws.
Karrde 06-18-04, 09:33 PM	on the point of slavery,slavery is NOT evil.evil depends on how you treat your slaves,if there well treated there is little reason for the paladin to remove the institution. Slavery isn't evil eh? I think we should make you a slave for a couple of years and see how you like it.
TMPikachu 06-18-04, 10:13 PM	Originally posted by Karrde Slavery isn't evil eh? I think we should make you a slave for a couple of years and see how you like it. I don't think you'd enjoy being a serf either. Or how would you like to be forced to march off to war for the lord you never see and die on alien soil?
roguebfl 06-19-04, 12:10 AM	Originally posted by TMPikachu I don't think you'd enjoy being a serf either. Or how would you like to be forced to march off to war for the lord you never see and die on alien soil? there is also the fact of Indetured Servitued. (Slavery as a punishment for a crime) that not evil either. my hoem bre has a LG (almos therocy) that uses such. Even taken Krynn the King Priest (LG) used slavery as well. the Key points are How you end up a slave, and how the slaves are treated. But I agree Grab US variant Paladins. also not Paladin are Not apreare for Every god (though some type of champion is)
BlaineTog 06-19-04, 02:40 AM	Originally posted by Piraatje Legitimate being the keyword here. If authority is NOT legitmate (aka not based on LG principles), laws have **** to do what a Paladin. Therefor, Lawfull has nothing to do with laws.WHich basically means that there is no restriction: if you don't like the laws (ie "it doesn't agree with LG principles"), then the authority isn't legitimate. Thats looks like trying to worm your way out of a class restriction to me.
kedi 06-19-04, 02:49 AM	Well the thing is Paladin is not just defender of good, he's alsoa minion of gods. He lives and dies by his code. Other Paladins, Named under "Holy Champions" are avaible, check the dungeon #310. LG: Paladin LN: Enforcer LE: -dunno- NG: Nomad N: Incarnate NE: -dunno- CG: Avenger CN: Anarch CE: Anti-Paladin My personal favourites are Anarch and Avenger. ...kedi
Piraatje 06-19-04, 07:27 AM	How is that worming out of a class restriction? If you state that Lawfull = must abide to all laws, this would imply that no paladin will ever enter territory with only a single evil law. Because if he would, he'd have to abide it, do an evil act, and fall. Legitimate authority is literally mentioned in my 3.0 PHB under paladin code of conduct ;)
EvilVegan 06-19-04, 08:17 AM	Originally posted by kedi LG: Paladin LN: Enforcer LE: -dunno- NG: Nomad N: Incarnate NE: -dunno- CG: Avenger CN: Anarch CE: Anti-Paladin ...kedi No offense to you, but I don't think I like those titles (it shouldn't offend you, since they aren't yours). And paladin's don't have anything to do with deities, unless you have house rules stating differently (like I do, IMC) Champion/Paladin of: LG = Honor LE = Tyranny CG = Liberty CE = Destruction NG = Benevolence NE = Malevolence LN = Order CN = Chaos N = Balance\Impartiality\Fairness (or something like that) Vengence/retribution has a lot to do with Law, so why is it chaotic? What does "Nomad" have to do with pure goodness? Paladin by itself is a vanilla title, meaning simply "Champion", with no moral/ethical bearing, so using it as synonymous with someone who is lawful good (or chaotic evil, for the antithesis) isn't very flavorful or accurate.
kedi 06-19-04, 08:23 AM	Originally posted by EvilVegan No offense to you, but I don't think I like those titles (it shouldn't offend you, since they aren't yours). And paladin's don't have anything to do with deities, unless you have house rules stating differently (like I do, IMC) Champion/Paladin of: LG = Honor LE = Tyranny CG = Liberty CE = Destruction NG = Benevolence NE = Malevolence LN = Order CN = Chaos N = Balance\Impartiality\Fairness (or something like that) Vengence/retribution has a lot to do with Law, so why is it chaotic? What does "Nomad" have to do with pure goodness? Paladin by itself is a vanilla title, meaning simply "Champion", with no moral/ethical bearing, so using it as synonymous with someone who is lawful good (or chaotic evil, for the antithesis) isn't very flavorful or accurate. No offence taken, cause they're the official names :) At dungeon #310, they're described. And dungeon magazine articles are official. ...kedi
EvilVegan 06-19-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Piraatje Legitimate authority is literally mentioned in my 3.0 PHB under paladin code of conduct ;) le·git·i·mate 1 Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business. 2 Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices. 3 Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem. 4 Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint. 5 Born of legally married parents: legitimate issue. 6 Of, relating to, or ruling by hereditary right: a legitimate monarch. 7 Of or relating to drama of high professional quality that excludes burlesque, vaudeville, and some forms of musical comedy: the legitimate theater. These have nothing to do with Goodness. If a king is LE, but is the "legitimate" king, the paladin must abide his rules. . . as long as they don't require him to perform evil acts. I can't really think of any rules in history that require people to do evil. But If they did he would have to refuse and accept the legal ramifications of breaking that law, in accordance with the law. He couldn't just ignore them willy-nilly because he believes differently, but he could perform an act of civil disobedience, as long as he didn't attempt to conceal his transgressions, or shirk his duty to "do the time." He may travel freely through any kingdom, even evil ones, though he would be wise to travel swiftly and avoid contact with the majority of the populous. If the population were openly evil he would have to combat it, in a lawful manner. If the law of the land is inherently evil, he must lawfully declare war upon said country and then attack it. Alone. Naked. Covered in jam.
EvilVegan 06-19-04, 08:29 AM	Originally posted by kedi No offence taken, cause they're the official names :) At dungeon #310, they're described. And dungeon magazine articles are official. ...kedi Yeah, I knew it was official, and that you were just quoting. I figured you wouldn't mind. But I think the official material is pretty stupid sometimes. I generally have to change it to make it fit what the people who wrote it meant for it to be. I try to make the titles, flavor text, and abilities match each other as best as I can.
Zelphi 06-19-04, 08:56 AM	Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Lawful does not have anything to do with Laws, otherwise a Monk could fall just by shifting into a different country. You respect the Legitimate authority, but other laws can override that. Orignal by William Riker Just because I have to respect it, doesn't mean I have to like it It entirely depends on the nature of the slavery and if freeing them would be a Chaotic Action.
roguebfl 06-19-04, 10:25 AM	basicly Lawful actions Should Always be taken to Benfity the Group, Chaotic actions are taken to benfit the indvidual. yes a Paladin is going to oppse an evil law, but it's HOW he oppose the law will difrent him from a NG or a CG. a Paladin will exasust all way within the law to oppose/change the law before he will break it. (ie work within the system) by working with the system he workin with the group for the good of the group.
Aohd 06-19-04, 02:12 PM	If the law of the land is inherently evil, he must lawfully declare war upon said country and then attack it. Alone. Naked. Covered in jam. [/B] This put me in tears laughing. anyhow For a paladin committed to an idea and not to a god I can understand your arguments. But in order for a law to have legitimacy when my character reflects upon it it must stand up to the law of my god. Otherwise it is a creation of men and intrinsically corrupt. This is not worming out of a character restriction. This is playing to character. The kind of devotion that paladin possesses is the same that Luther had. The kind of devotion to the word of god that made him stand up to the church in the open nailing the complaints to the church door. It is the kind of devotion that Socrates had, a willing ness to drink the hemlock rather then denounce his precepts or admit he was corrupting the youth. It is the aliment of Pain and Thoreau, and King. A willing ness to stand up for gods law even in the face of mans law. Alone. Naked and covered in jam.
kedi 06-20-04, 04:43 AM	Originally posted by roguebfl basicly Lawful actions Should Always be taken to Benfity the Group, Chaotic actions are taken to benfit the indvidual. yes a Paladin is going to oppse an evil law, but it's HOW he oppose the law will difrent him from a NG or a CG. a Paladin will exasust all way within the law to oppose/change the law before he will break it. (ie work within the system) by working with the system he workin with the group for the good of the group. That's entirely wrong. A CG person would sacrifice himself to slay the tyrant-lord of the land to let people free. A LE monk would act in ways that he wouldn't get caught, busted, and would act within certain limits to benefit only self. Good: Feeling responsible to benefit people. A good person not always sacrifices self to help people but at least tries not to hurt people. Evil: Not feeling responsible to benefit people. An evil person not always hurts people, but doesn't mind hurting along people. Lawful: Respecting laws, codes and limits. A lawful person doesn't feel a strong responsibility to obey laws, traditions etc, but believes that life would be so much easier if there were some limits. Chaotic: Not respecting laws, codes and limits. A chaotic person doesn't feel a strong zeal to break the every single law, but believes that life would be so much better if there were no rules. O and btw, an anarch (CN paladin) has it's code and can not break it, must obey it's every single word. Can you see an enigma here?
TheDarkestOfAngels 06-20-04, 04:51 AM	Y'know, just because the pally's code says to "respect" laws or legitimate authority, doesn't mean or otherwise imply that "following" or "obiding" by these laws is, in any way, manditory.
roguebfl 06-20-04, 05:56 AM	Originally posted by kedi That's entirely wrong. Not Wrong at all as you basicaly said the same thing, the reasonon why Respecting laws, codes and limits. A lawful person doesn't feel a strong responsibility to obey laws, traditions etc, but believes that life would be so much easier if there were some limits. is Becuase the belive the Group is more important that the indvidual. that. the PHB actuls SAYS a Lafull person Does feel as stong responisbility to obay the laws. its the Nutrals that do so becuase its easyer. the lawfull dose so because the thinks its Better.
Karrde 06-21-04, 12:03 PM	is Becuase the belive the Group is more important that the indvidual. that. the PHB actuls SAYS a Lafull person Does feel as stong responisbility to obay the laws. Yes, a strong responcibility, but not a rule. Lawful people are more ordered, but they aren't nessessarily going to always go along with the law. For example, an organized crime boss would be LE, because he's organized, but he dosn't obey the laws. You people need to realise this, LAWFUL ALLIGNMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBEYING LAWS!!!!! It means a disiplined and orderly approach to life, rather than a chaotic, which is a whimsicle and free approach. This said, the lawful people are more likely to obey the law, because of their outlook on order, but there's nothing forcing them to.
roguebfl 06-21-04, 04:41 PM	Originally posted by Karrde Yes, a strong responcibility, but not a rule. Lawful people are more ordered, but they aren't nessessarily going to always go along with the law. For example, an organized crime boss would be LE, because he's organized, but he dosn't obey the laws. yes that true but he the way the LE crime boss would see the group as his orgnisation, the the relvent 'laws' you the be 'bi-laws' of the orginasation written or unwritten. it depends which group the see them selves being their main group. a Lawfull person may see ther loyalty more to ther Duke then their king, and would follow their duke even if it opposed their king.
Aohd 06-21-04, 05:56 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl yes that true but he the way the LE crime boss would see the group as his orgnisation, the the relvent 'laws' you the be 'bi-laws' of the orginasation written or unwritten. it depends which group the see them selves being their main group. a Lawfull person may see ther loyalty more to ther Duke then their king, and would follow their duke even if it opposed their king. Precisely and because a paladin belongs to a group, namely "those who serve his god" the relevant “laws” that apply to his alignment would be those that his god has set before him.
roguebfl 06-21-04, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by Aohd Precisely and because a paladin belongs to a group, namely "those who serve his god" the relevant “laws” that apply to his alignment would be those that his god has set before him. yep Which gets more complcated when the King of the land is coranted by a Cleric of the Paladin's God (or in the name of the paladin's god)
Templar_Prime 06-21-04, 08:03 PM	Barring the difference between paladins and blackguards (AKA paladins of tyrany and slaughter from UA), the main confusion here seems to be over the definitions of the good/evil and law/chaos axis. Law does not mean following laws. Chaos does not mean supporting anarchy. The best way to sumarize them is that the good/evil axis is what a character does (and why), and the law/chaos axis is how the character does it. -Good characters belive in peace, harmony, and co-operation. Conversely, they are the first ones to stand up to fight for those ideals. -Neutral characters are always looking out for the bottom line. Charity will usually be availible if the character doesn't have anything to lose, but will also insist that s/he is now owed a favor. -Evil characters are all about personal gain. anything that does not advance their cause or harm an enemies is not worth wasting time on. -Lawful characters are calm, methodical, and have an abundance of self-control. In addition, their word is their bond. They will never go back on their word or break a contract unless the other person has undeniably done so. -Chaotic characters are whim incarnate. Many times hyper, and always following no rules that defy their inner drive. -Neutral characters could be described as "moral, not honorable". Self-control is there, but not to the extent of the Chaotic character. An agreement may be broken, but never on a whim. So the base paladin is lawful good for that reason. They are usually members of an organized order or heirarchy, and promote 'good' causes as much as they can. The Chaotic varient in UA actually fits my ideal of a paladin, which is the wandering hero free of organizational ties.
jmoney 06-21-04, 08:57 PM	The thing is paladin's would not follow the laws of evil because that would be considered willingly working with evil, bad paladin, they have nothing to do with evil. Paladin's follow their code, by all means along with any beliefs of their god(s). Lawful does not mean you always follow the law, because a paladin is good before lawful, without a doubt. A simple example of lawful not always following the law, is LE murdering some one, oh no they broke the law must not be lawful, you see it works both ways.
roguebfl 06-21-04, 08:59 PM	Originally posted by Templar_Prime -Lawful characters are calm, methodical, and have an abundance of self-control. In addition, their word is their bond. They will never go back on their word or break a contract unless the other person has undeniably done so. -Chaotic characters are whim incarnate. Many times hyper, and always following no rules that defy their inner drive. Again I will say you have that wrong a Lawful person can do somthing on a whim, als long as they don have other oblcation. and ther Nothing stoping a Choatic person planing a head. a Chaotic person is about Indvuilaity not whims
roguebfl 06-21-04, 09:03 PM	there is a PrC jor a Paladin the is lawful before good, have a look at the Justicar (of Tyr)
Karrde 06-21-04, 09:26 PM	Lawful and chaotic are more of guidelines, rather than actual rules. While a lawful person could and probably would act on a whim, a chaotic person would do it practically all the time. Whereas, while the chaotic person would probably make some plans, they wouldn't do it as often or to the same depth as a lawful character would.
LoricDAHPaladin 06-21-04, 09:29 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Paladin could still try to get those slaves freed by...getting the laws about slavery revoked by peaceful, lawful methods. Bravo, Blaine. I swore I would never post here again...thanks, Deafbymetal. So much for the best laid plans of mice and men... ...anyway, Blaine told it succinctly. Paladins do not go off half cocked, and they certainly do not simply obey laws just because they are laws. If anyone tells me that a Paladin cannot excersize his discretion to determine when he must respect laws and when he must take justice into his own hands, then your moral and ethical barometers are so far askew as to make me wonder about your ability to function in life.
Templar_Prime 06-21-04, 10:58 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl Again I will say you have that wrong a Lawful person can do somthing on a whim, als long as they don have other oblcation. and ther Nothing stoping a Choatic person planing a head. a Chaotic person is about Indvuilaity not whims Occasionally, yes. What I posted were trends, what you mention are exceptions.
roguebfl 06-22-04, 12:14 AM	Originally posted by Templar_Prime Occasionally, yes. What I posted were trends, what you mention are exceptions. they not exceptions what you point is not even trends. by your argumen CN are all unpriticble lunitics , save for the excetions, where I think that type of CN is the expcetion.