A party of party support [Archive] - Wizards Community

A party of party support [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avenger314
09-03-07, 11:48 AM Hey all,

I wonder... would it be feasible to make an entire party of support characters/buffers?
For example, in a 4-person party, it could include the following:
Bard
Cleric
Dragon Shaman
Divine Mind
The idea is that nearly every roll has a bonus to it since everyone has overlapping blanket buffs available. (some dip multiclassing may be necessary for trapfinding or utilitarian magic, for example).

Would this be a workable party?
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 11:54 AM Any party is workable.

That said, let me submit my entry: 3 PrCed Clerics and a Sublime Chord.
InkBlot
09-03-07, 12:13 PM The cleric is a tank. What's he doing in there?
Avenger314
09-03-07, 12:24 PM The cleric can cast prayer and other buff spells. Of the 11 standard classes, I'd go so far as to say that the two best buffers are clerics and bards.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 12:30 PM The cleric can cast prayer and other buff spells. Of the 11 standard classes, I'd go so far as to say that the two best buffers are clerics and bards.

Agreed.

Clerics are the best healer, the 2nd best buffer, the 3rd best tank, the 4th best blaster...
Bob Loblaw
09-03-07, 12:46 PM I was thinking of doing this a while ago. I would add factotum and truenamer to the list.

I wouldn't say that cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer are actually support classes. They can certainly be built that way, but I see them as primary classes because their options aren't focused on support as much. That being said, a wizard or sorcerer certainly can be built as an interesting support character since they don't know all the spells on their lists, they are less likely to feel the need to take a non-support spell, "just in case."
EpicEvokerElf
09-03-07, 05:28 PM The THIRD best tank?!?!?!?! You mean the BEST, right?
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 05:32 PM The THIRD best tank?!?!?!?! You mean the BEST, right?

Definitely behind the Druid, so at least 2nd. Some would put the Barb or Fighter or Paladin at 2nd.
InkBlot
09-03-07, 05:42 PM Where would you put the Crusader on the tanking list? Crusaders don't die.

Incidentally, Crusaders are decent support characters with the White Raven discipline. No out-of-combat support though.
dman11235
09-03-07, 06:31 PM Heck, I thought it would be a fun campaign some time to have a party of bards. It could be a band...

Another one was the PrC'd clerics of different deities. That one had some really interesting RPing issues.

I don't think only dragon shamans work, though. It could, depending on the campaign. If the campaign is designed around the characters (at least, with them in mind) it is a workable party.

Oh, and you forgot marshal. A party of one cleric of pelor (radiant servant), a bard that fights build, a dragon shaman, and a marshal. The cleric's role is obvious, as is the bard's. The dragon shaman takes the bard's normal role, as does the marshal.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 06:38 PM Where would you put the Crusader on the tanking list? Crusaders don't die.

Note that Avenger stated "of the 11 standard classes", so the rankings were based on those.

The Crusader is definitely near the top of the list of all tanks.

Incidentally, Crusaders are decent support characters with the White Raven discipline. No out-of-combat support though.

White Raven is an awesome discipline for aiding and abetting your allies. I am currently running a Marshal2/Fighter2/CrusaderX who is one mean little tank/support character. Can dish it out too.
LordPendragon
09-03-07, 07:30 PM That being said, a wizard or sorcerer certainly can be built as an interesting support character since they don't know all the spells on their lists, they are less likely to feel the need to take a non-support spell, "just in case."
They also make very good buffers if Warweaver is available. One character I had a lot of fun with was a straight Sorcerer/Warweaver, who used Arcane Disciple (CD) to cast heals and certain buffs through his weave.
Jaxgaret
09-03-07, 08:23 PM They also make very good buffers if Warweaver is available. One character I had a lot of fun with was a straight Sorcerer/Warweaver, who used Arcane Disciple (CD) to cast heals and certain buffs through his weave.

Bard/WarWeavers make most excellent buffers.
boots_pimpleton
09-03-07, 09:55 PM true jax,
chameleon warweavers are just as excelent=D
OneWinged4ngel
09-04-07, 04:28 AM You know what? I like my 3-man-bard-party.

It's got a Bard/Warblade that uses a Dragonsong Inspiration for +12d6 to everyone's damage rolls, then a more roguish and song-focused bard that throws in +12 attack and +12 damage, and a Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord that throws in 2-3 5th level spell buffs on the whole party. The Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord still has 9th level spells. The roguish bard has additional song buffs to add, as well as some spell-work, UMD, and of course skills. The Bard/Warblade can use that song as a swift action and still charge and do hundreds of damage on the first round. And has 9th level maneuvers.

Now, give all of them leadership. Even level 1 warrior followers are going to have +13-14 to attack, +12d6+12 damage (in addition to whatever they do with, say, their bows or crossbows), and then 2 or 3 powerful spell buffs on top of that (like Haste, Displacement, and so forth)

They can also all get ridiculous Fascinate DCs.

Now, take that, and then challenge anyone to say bards suck. Then rip their ****ing face off with complete overkill.

The party covers all roles well, and all have powerful overlapping buffs *in addition* to several other powerful capabilities (9th level maneuvers, 9th level spells, and so forth)
LordPendragon
09-04-07, 09:12 AM ... then a more roguish and song-focused bard that throws in +12 attack and +12 damage. ...
I'd like to see how this is done. Is a build posted anywhere?? I'd also like to see how the Bard/Warblade makes it to 9th level manoeuvres while still giving such a bonus, but the +12 bardsong takes precedence.
Grogmir
09-04-07, 10:10 AM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095

This thread might help you. Don't know what they got it up to by the end of the thread! but it should give you some ideas.

Grogmir.
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 10:17 AM You know what? I like my 3-man-bard-party.

I like it too. Bards ftw.

Now, give all of them leadership.

Alternatively, if Leadership is not allowed, take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) or any such feat.

Now, take that, and then challenge anyone to say bards suck. Then rip their ****ing face off with complete overkill.

I still see "Bards suck" all the time. It amuses me.
OneWinged4ngel
09-04-07, 01:42 PM I'd like to see how this is done. Is a build posted anywhere?? I'd also like to see how the Bard/Warblade makes it to 9th level manoeuvres while still giving such a bonus, but the +12 bardsong takes precedence.

A Bard 4 / Warblade 16 gets 9th level maneuvers, if I'm not mistaken. And with Song of the White Raven, those Warblade levels count towards your bard song. Also, Bard 4 / Crusader 16 works just as well.

As for +12 bardsong... lessee...

+4 base, +4 Words of Creation, +1 Vest of Legends (I think that's what it's called), +1 Badge of Valor, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, and +1 for a Masterwork Instrument from Complete Adventurer.

...That's actually +13. Huh. I'll have to see if Vest of Legends actually gives an extra point at level 20, though, since it doesn't actually give a +1, but instead says "you sing as a bard of 5 levels higher" and I don't know the epic progression off the top of my head. Still, without Vest of Legends, it's +12.

Anyways, the point is, you can make a BEASTLY party of bards.

I still see "Bards suck" all the time. It amuses me.

To illustrate visually, some people are just idiots and play their bards like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/ElanOOTS.gif
(The stereotypical "stupid and useless" bard who wastes his actions with things like feinting or summoning badgers to flank or worshipping self-proclaimed puppet gods or inspiring competence on a move silently check with a song. And yes, I've seen people dumb enough to suggest all these tactics on bard threads here.)

When they could be playing something like this:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Darkwood_Vigilant_by_JasonEngle-1.jpg
(The thought of you being a singing panzy will not cross anyone's mind, let alone a recurring line of commentary. He uses his actions to be awesome)
Avenger314
09-04-07, 02:00 PM Hey all,

I forgot about warweavers. Those guys are GREAT for party buffing.
The only reason I didn't mention the Tome of Battle classes are that I'm mostly unfamiliar with them. I should really study the book in detail; I'm told the swordsage in particular can be extremely lethal in the right hands.

In a party of five, I'm thinking this may be a sample build:

Bard/any prestige class (such as seeker of the song) for party-buffing songs
Transmtuer/War Weaver for multi-target buffing spells
Dragon shaman for aura
Divine Mind for aura
Cleric/any prestige class for buffing spells
Note also that all the niches are filled except trapfinding. There's arcane magic, divine magic, and several tanks.

This may be a fun party to play because there's no one focal point. Because everyone does group buffing, there's no specific central weak point.

Feel free to tweak with suggestions--again, I'm unfamiliar with Tome of Battle.
InkBlot
09-04-07, 02:42 PM A Bard 4 / Warblade 16 gets 9th level maneuvers, if I'm not mistaken.
You're not mistaken, but Bard 6 / Warblade 14 also gets 9th level maneuvers. Half your non-martial adept levels count towards your initiator level, and you get 9th level maneuvers with initiator level 17 (no matter your class).
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 02:59 PM You're not mistaken, but Bard 6 / Warblade 14 also gets 9th level maneuvers. Half your non-martial adept levels count towards your initiator level, and you get 9th level maneuvers with initiator level 17 (no matter your class).

True, but why go Bard 6 instead of 4? You lose a point of BAB and 6 HP and gain little for it.
InkBlot
09-04-07, 03:14 PM I don't know. There probably isn't any compelling reason.

I just assumed he was trying to get as many bard levels as possible; that more bard was better for the concept (but didn't really check the books). The character would feel a little more like a bard, and a little less like a singing warblade. He'd get Suggestion, better Bardic Knowledge, more uses of Bardic Music, more spells, and more skills. Practiced Spellcaster would make his caster level an even 10.
OneWinged4ngel
09-04-07, 04:03 PM I don't know. There probably isn't any compelling reason.

I just assumed he was trying to get as many bard levels as possible; that more bard was better for the concept (but didn't really check the books). The character would feel a little more like a bard, and a little less like a singing warblade. He'd get Suggestion, better Bardic Knowledge, more uses of Bardic Music, more spells, and more skills. Practiced Spellcaster would make his caster level an even 10.

And Practiced spellcaster would be a complete waste of a feat, because that bard is supposed to use UMD and Maneuvers. As for fascinate... you don't need 3 people with it. People never save against it anyways.
LordPendragon
09-04-07, 10:31 PM ... Song of the White Raven, ...
Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat.

+4 base, +4 Words of Creation, +1 Vest of Legends (I think that's what it's called), +1 Badge of Valor, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, and +1 for a Masterwork Instrument from Complete Adventurer.
Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways.

I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D
Jaxgaret
09-04-07, 11:05 PM Ah, the trusty old BoEC.

Lo, the Book of Exalted Cheese. :)

Love it.
OneWinged4ngel
09-05-07, 03:47 AM Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat.

Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways.

I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D

Note that with Dragonsong inspiration, you can make that +13/+13 into a +13d6 energy damage, which is what I gave the Bard/Warblade to use.
Jaxgaret
09-05-07, 09:40 AM Note that with Dragonsong inspiration, you can make that +13/+13 into a +13d6 energy damage, which is what I gave the Bard/Warblade to use.

Which is a great combo with normal Inspire Courage that I hadn't thought of before.

Since two Bard's normal IC bonuses do not stack, this is a most excellent method to get a 2nd Inspire Courage effect to 'stack', since it is now from a different source, Dragonfire Inspiration.
danielinthewolvesden
09-05-07, 01:04 PM Cleric is to be one of the iconic "big 4" roles (the healer, altho certainly cleric can do fulfil other roles) so it does not count.
Thus we have:
Bard, Dragon Shaman. &

Marshal. You forgot Marshal, the ultimate buffing class.

A party with these three would only lack trapfinding. It would be fine in melee, have some ranged damage goodness (bard & the DS breath attack), and have healing from two sources.
Avenger314
09-05-07, 01:15 PM I plead the defense that I don't own Miniature's Handbook. Otherwise, I have the feeling I'd have definitely included Marshall.
Nadaka
09-05-07, 02:47 PM Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat.

Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways.

I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D

I hate to break this to you. But Future is more broken than D&D. Weapon gadgets, specifically +4d6 electrical damage for a +2 PDC? Point Defence deals more damage than heavy cannons? Not just mechanically, but half the book was slashed in post production, the authors didn't even know how much was lost until after it was printed.
LordPendragon
09-05-07, 03:38 PM I hate to break this to you. But Future is more broken than D&D.
Really?? Damn... Then I guess +13 at 8th level wasn't that intense. Ah well, I'm still be glad to be able to play the buffer in D&D.
danielinthewolvesden
09-05-07, 07:33 PM I plead the defense that I don't own Miniature's Handbook. Otherwise, I have the feeling I'd have definitely included Marshall.

No problemo, WotC seems to forget about Marshal (and Healer) often also!:P
OneWinged4ngel
09-06-07, 02:15 PM No problemo, WotC seems to forget about Marshal (and Healer) often also!:P

On the other hand, those classes both suck. Marshal is just a one-level-dip *****. Healer doesn't even heal as well as a Cleric, let alone do all the other awesome things clerics do. And they castrate themselves by association with unicorns (which only accept virgin female riders)
danielinthewolvesden
09-06-07, 02:56 PM On the other hand, those classes both suck. Marshal is just a one-level-dip *****. Healer doesn't even heal as well as a Cleric, let alone do all the other awesome things clerics do. And they castrate themselves by association with unicorns (which only accept virgin female riders)

I have both run a Marshal and Gamemastered one. It is a quite good class, even if perhaps not optimized.

I have also run a Healer thru Epic. Not only was it a MUCH better healer than any Cleric could be, he was voted "MVP" by the party game after game.Folks claim these classes are weak but they seem to have little direct experience with them. I have such experince, and even tho I concede a Healer is not as powerful as a Cleric, it is a FAR better healer. If you play one for 22 levels yourself, then you can argue differently. Note that Healer adds their CHA bonus to all healing spells. And has great healing class abilities.

And, the Unicorn Mount is sent directly by the Diefic powers from the Celestial realms, it has no such restrictions on its rider.:rolleyes:
Jaxgaret
09-06-07, 05:53 PM Marshal is just a one-level-dip

Correction: 2-level dip.
FrostHammer
09-07-07, 10:10 PM I wonder if the Beguiler counts as a Buffer or a De-Buffer?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avenger314 09-03-07, 11:48 AM	Hey all, I wonder... would it be feasible to make an entire party of support characters/buffers? For example, in a 4-person party, it could include the following: Bard Cleric Dragon Shaman Divine Mind The idea is that nearly every roll has a bonus to it since everyone has overlapping blanket buffs available. (some dip multiclassing may be necessary for trapfinding or utilitarian magic, for example). Would this be a workable party?
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 11:54 AM	Any party is workable. That said, let me submit my entry: 3 PrCed Clerics and a Sublime Chord.
InkBlot 09-03-07, 12:13 PM	The cleric is a tank. What's he doing in there?
Avenger314 09-03-07, 12:24 PM	The cleric can cast prayer and other buff spells. Of the 11 standard classes, I'd go so far as to say that the two best buffers are clerics and bards.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 12:30 PM	The cleric can cast prayer and other buff spells. Of the 11 standard classes, I'd go so far as to say that the two best buffers are clerics and bards. Agreed. Clerics are the best healer, the 2nd best buffer, the 3rd best tank, the 4th best blaster...
Bob Loblaw 09-03-07, 12:46 PM	I was thinking of doing this a while ago. I would add factotum and truenamer to the list. I wouldn't say that cleric, druid, wizard, or sorcerer are actually support classes. They can certainly be built that way, but I see them as primary classes because their options aren't focused on support as much. That being said, a wizard or sorcerer certainly can be built as an interesting support character since they don't know all the spells on their lists, they are less likely to feel the need to take a non-support spell, "just in case."
EpicEvokerElf 09-03-07, 05:28 PM	The THIRD best tank?!?!?!?! You mean the BEST, right?
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 05:32 PM	The THIRD best tank?!?!?!?! You mean the BEST, right? Definitely behind the Druid, so at least 2nd. Some would put the Barb or Fighter or Paladin at 2nd.
InkBlot 09-03-07, 05:42 PM	Where would you put the Crusader on the tanking list? Crusaders don't die. Incidentally, Crusaders are decent support characters with the White Raven discipline. No out-of-combat support though.
dman11235 09-03-07, 06:31 PM	Heck, I thought it would be a fun campaign some time to have a party of bards. It could be a band... Another one was the PrC'd clerics of different deities. That one had some really interesting RPing issues. I don't think only dragon shamans work, though. It could, depending on the campaign. If the campaign is designed around the characters (at least, with them in mind) it is a workable party. Oh, and you forgot marshal. A party of one cleric of pelor (radiant servant), a bard that fights build, a dragon shaman, and a marshal. The cleric's role is obvious, as is the bard's. The dragon shaman takes the bard's normal role, as does the marshal.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 06:38 PM	Where would you put the Crusader on the tanking list? Crusaders don't die. Note that Avenger stated "of the 11 standard classes", so the rankings were based on those. The Crusader is definitely near the top of the list of all tanks. Incidentally, Crusaders are decent support characters with the White Raven discipline. No out-of-combat support though. White Raven is an awesome discipline for aiding and abetting your allies. I am currently running a Marshal2/Fighter2/CrusaderX who is one mean little tank/support character. Can dish it out too.
LordPendragon 09-03-07, 07:30 PM	That being said, a wizard or sorcerer certainly can be built as an interesting support character since they don't know all the spells on their lists, they are less likely to feel the need to take a non-support spell, "just in case." They also make very good buffers if Warweaver is available. One character I had a lot of fun with was a straight Sorcerer/Warweaver, who used Arcane Disciple (CD) to cast heals and certain buffs through his weave.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 08:23 PM	They also make very good buffers if Warweaver is available. One character I had a lot of fun with was a straight Sorcerer/Warweaver, who used Arcane Disciple (CD) to cast heals and certain buffs through his weave. Bard/WarWeavers make most excellent buffers.
boots_pimpleton 09-03-07, 09:55 PM	true jax, chameleon warweavers are just as excelent=D
OneWinged4ngel 09-04-07, 04:28 AM	You know what? I like my 3-man-bard-party. It's got a Bard/Warblade that uses a Dragonsong Inspiration for +12d6 to everyone's damage rolls, then a more roguish and song-focused bard that throws in +12 attack and +12 damage, and a Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord that throws in 2-3 5th level spell buffs on the whole party. The Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord still has 9th level spells. The roguish bard has additional song buffs to add, as well as some spell-work, UMD, and of course skills. The Bard/Warblade can use that song as a swift action and still charge and do hundreds of damage on the first round. And has 9th level maneuvers. Now, give all of them leadership. Even level 1 warrior followers are going to have +13-14 to attack, +12d6+12 damage (in addition to whatever they do with, say, their bows or crossbows), and then 2 or 3 powerful spell buffs on top of that (like Haste, Displacement, and so forth) They can also all get ridiculous Fascinate DCs. Now, take that, and then challenge anyone to say bards suck. Then rip their ***ing face off with complete overkill. The party covers all roles well, and all have powerful overlapping buffs in addition* to several other powerful capabilities (9th level maneuvers, 9th level spells, and so forth)
LordPendragon 09-04-07, 09:12 AM	... then a more roguish and song-focused bard that throws in +12 attack and +12 damage. ... I'd like to see how this is done. Is a build posted anywhere?? I'd also like to see how the Bard/Warblade makes it to 9th level manoeuvres while still giving such a bonus, but the +12 bardsong takes precedence.
Grogmir 09-04-07, 10:10 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095 This thread might help you. Don't know what they got it up to by the end of the thread! but it should give you some ideas. Grogmir.
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 10:17 AM	You know what? I like my 3-man-bard-party. I like it too. Bards ftw. Now, give all of them leadership. Alternatively, if Leadership is not allowed, take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) or any such feat. Now, take that, and then challenge anyone to say bards suck. Then rip their ****ing face off with complete overkill. I still see "Bards suck" all the time. It amuses me.
OneWinged4ngel 09-04-07, 01:42 PM	I'd like to see how this is done. Is a build posted anywhere?? I'd also like to see how the Bard/Warblade makes it to 9th level manoeuvres while still giving such a bonus, but the +12 bardsong takes precedence. A Bard 4 / Warblade 16 gets 9th level maneuvers, if I'm not mistaken. And with Song of the White Raven, those Warblade levels count towards your bard song. Also, Bard 4 / Crusader 16 works just as well. As for +12 bardsong... lessee... +4 base, +4 Words of Creation, +1 Vest of Legends (I think that's what it's called), +1 Badge of Valor, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, and +1 for a Masterwork Instrument from Complete Adventurer. ...That's actually +13. Huh. I'll have to see if Vest of Legends actually gives an extra point at level 20, though, since it doesn't actually give a +1, but instead says "you sing as a bard of 5 levels higher" and I don't know the epic progression off the top of my head. Still, without Vest of Legends, it's +12. Anyways, the point is, you can make a BEASTLY party of bards. I still see "Bards suck" all the time. It amuses me. To illustrate visually, some people are just idiots and play their bards like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/ElanOOTS.gif (The stereotypical "stupid and useless" bard who wastes his actions with things like feinting or summoning badgers to flank or worshipping self-proclaimed puppet gods or inspiring competence on a move silently check with a song. And yes, I've seen people dumb enough to suggest all these tactics on bard threads here.) When they could be playing something like this: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Darkwood_Vigilant_by_JasonEngle-1.jpg (The thought of you being a singing panzy will not cross anyone's mind, let alone a recurring line of commentary. He uses his actions to be awesome)
Avenger314 09-04-07, 02:00 PM	Hey all, I forgot about warweavers. Those guys are GREAT for party buffing. The only reason I didn't mention the Tome of Battle classes are that I'm mostly unfamiliar with them. I should really study the book in detail; I'm told the swordsage in particular can be extremely lethal in the right hands. In a party of five, I'm thinking this may be a sample build: Bard/any prestige class (such as seeker of the song) for party-buffing songs Transmtuer/War Weaver for multi-target buffing spells Dragon shaman for aura Divine Mind for aura Cleric/any prestige class for buffing spells Note also that all the niches are filled except trapfinding. There's arcane magic, divine magic, and several tanks. This may be a fun party to play because there's no one focal point. Because everyone does group buffing, there's no specific central weak point. Feel free to tweak with suggestions--again, I'm unfamiliar with Tome of Battle.
InkBlot 09-04-07, 02:42 PM	A Bard 4 / Warblade 16 gets 9th level maneuvers, if I'm not mistaken. You're not mistaken, but Bard 6 / Warblade 14 also gets 9th level maneuvers. Half your non-martial adept levels count towards your initiator level, and you get 9th level maneuvers with initiator level 17 (no matter your class).
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 02:59 PM	You're not mistaken, but Bard 6 / Warblade 14 also gets 9th level maneuvers. Half your non-martial adept levels count towards your initiator level, and you get 9th level maneuvers with initiator level 17 (no matter your class). True, but why go Bard 6 instead of 4? You lose a point of BAB and 6 HP and gain little for it.
InkBlot 09-04-07, 03:14 PM	I don't know. There probably isn't any compelling reason. I just assumed he was trying to get as many bard levels as possible; that more bard was better for the concept (but didn't really check the books). The character would feel a little more like a bard, and a little less like a singing warblade. He'd get Suggestion, better Bardic Knowledge, more uses of Bardic Music, more spells, and more skills. Practiced Spellcaster would make his caster level an even 10.
OneWinged4ngel 09-04-07, 04:03 PM	I don't know. There probably isn't any compelling reason. I just assumed he was trying to get as many bard levels as possible; that more bard was better for the concept (but didn't really check the books). The character would feel a little more like a bard, and a little less like a singing warblade. He'd get Suggestion, better Bardic Knowledge, more uses of Bardic Music, more spells, and more skills. Practiced Spellcaster would make his caster level an even 10. And Practiced spellcaster would be a complete waste of a feat, because that bard is supposed to use UMD and Maneuvers. As for fascinate... you don't need 3 people with it. People never save against it anyways.
LordPendragon 09-04-07, 10:31 PM	... Song of the White Raven, ... Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat. +4 base, +4 Words of Creation, +1 Vest of Legends (I think that's what it's called), +1 Badge of Valor, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, and +1 for a Masterwork Instrument from Complete Adventurer. Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways. I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D
Jaxgaret 09-04-07, 11:05 PM	Ah, the trusty old BoEC. Lo, the Book of Exalted Cheese. :) Love it.
OneWinged4ngel 09-05-07, 03:47 AM	Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat. Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways. I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D Note that with Dragonsong inspiration, you can make that +13/+13 into a +13d6 energy damage, which is what I gave the Bard/Warblade to use.
Jaxgaret 09-05-07, 09:40 AM	Note that with Dragonsong inspiration, you can make that +13/+13 into a +13d6 energy damage, which is what I gave the Bard/Warblade to use. Which is a great combo with normal Inspire Courage that I hadn't thought of before. Since two Bard's normal IC bonuses do not stack, this is a most excellent method to get a 2nd Inspire Courage effect to 'stack', since it is now from a different source, Dragonfire Inspiration.
danielinthewolvesden 09-05-07, 01:04 PM	Cleric is to be one of the iconic "big 4" roles (the healer, altho certainly cleric can do fulfil other roles) so it does not count. Thus we have: Bard, Dragon Shaman. & Marshal. You forgot Marshal, the ultimate buffing class. A party with these three would only lack trapfinding. It would be fine in melee, have some ranged damage goodness (bard & the DS breath attack), and have healing from two sources.
Avenger314 09-05-07, 01:15 PM	I plead the defense that I don't own Miniature's Handbook. Otherwise, I have the feeling I'd have definitely included Marshall.
Nadaka 09-05-07, 02:47 PM	Ah, thanks... I didn't even think of a stacking feat. Ah, the trusty old BoEC. I'm currently running an exalted character, so I probably won't use this build for a while, but thanks for the info anyways. I've been wondering about a build like this for quite a while, ever since I managed a +13 bonus to attack or AC from "bardsong" in D20 Future. I knew there was no way that any D20 product could be that much more broken than D&D :D I hate to break this to you. But Future is more broken than D&D. Weapon gadgets, specifically +4d6 electrical damage for a +2 PDC? Point Defence deals more damage than heavy cannons? Not just mechanically, but half the book was slashed in post production, the authors didn't even know how much was lost until after it was printed.
LordPendragon 09-05-07, 03:38 PM	I hate to break this to you. But Future is more broken than D&D. Really?? Damn... Then I guess +13 at 8th level wasn't that intense. Ah well, I'm still be glad to be able to play the buffer in D&D.
danielinthewolvesden 09-05-07, 07:33 PM	I plead the defense that I don't own Miniature's Handbook. Otherwise, I have the feeling I'd have definitely included Marshall. No problemo, WotC seems to forget about Marshal (and Healer) often also!:P
OneWinged4ngel 09-06-07, 02:15 PM	No problemo, WotC seems to forget about Marshal (and Healer) often also!:P On the other hand, those classes both suck. Marshal is just a one-level-dip *****. Healer doesn't even heal as well as a Cleric, let alone do all the other awesome things clerics do. And they castrate themselves by association with unicorns (which only accept virgin female riders)
danielinthewolvesden 09-06-07, 02:56 PM	On the other hand, those classes both suck. Marshal is just a one-level-dip *****. Healer doesn't even heal as well as a Cleric, let alone do all the other awesome things clerics do. And they castrate themselves by association with unicorns (which only accept virgin female riders) I have both run a Marshal and Gamemastered one. It is a quite good class, even if perhaps not optimized. I have also run a Healer thru Epic. Not only was it a MUCH better healer than any Cleric could be, he was voted "MVP" by the party game after game.Folks claim these classes are weak but they seem to have little direct experience with them. I have such experince, and even tho I concede a Healer is not as powerful as a Cleric, it is a FAR better healer. If you play one for 22 levels yourself, then you can argue differently. Note that Healer adds their CHA bonus to all healing spells. And has great healing class abilities. And, the Unicorn Mount is sent directly by the Diefic powers from the Celestial realms, it has no such restrictions on its rider.:rolleyes:
Jaxgaret 09-06-07, 05:53 PM	Marshal is just a one-level-dip Correction: 2-level dip.
FrostHammer 09-07-07, 10:10 PM	I wonder if the Beguiler counts as a Buffer or a De-Buffer?