Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daybreaker 08-02-04, 03:02 AM	My guy, he starts out an orphan at a Monastery. He learns acrobatics and martial arts there (3 levels of Monk). He's Lawful. Then, right about the point where puberty hits, he becomes Chaotic (like most of us do). He runs away from the Monastery and puts training to practice as a street-thief (2 levels of Rogue). Now he's about fifteen, old enough to join the army and make some quick money, so he does (along with 2 levels of Fighter). By the time he's seventeen, he's decided that he has no interest in a further military career, and so he becomes a wandering minstrel (for 2 levels of Bard), telling tales that he learned while a soldier. Is this automatically twinky?
BlaineTog 08-02-04, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by Daybreaker Is this automatically twinky?No, because 4 *base* classes will generally get you an unabashedly weak character. Generally. Start mixing in PrCs and thats when the munchkins start a-munching.
SALDAR 08-02-04, 06:05 AM	One little point. When his alignment changed from lawful to chaotic he lost access to all his monk class features and abilities, such as unarmed strike, still mind, evasion, and flurry of blows. He would keep his bonus feats. If he would return to a lawful alignment he would lose his bard abilities as bards must be nonlawful.
ikkonoishi 08-02-04, 08:46 AM	Originally posted by SALDAR One little point. When his alignment changed from lawful to chaotic he lost access to all his monk class features and abilities, such as unarmed strike, still mind, evasion, and flurry of blows. You are thinking paladin. Ex-Monks A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities. Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.
Beamup 08-02-04, 08:58 AM	So long as all the classes in question are appropriate to the character at the time he takes them, not at all. This applies equally to base classes and PrCs.
Watchman 08-02-04, 09:00 AM	"Because I stopped shaving my head, fasting every Tuesday and saying the mantras every morning I forgot all the fighting skills over ten years of monastic training ingrained in me!!!" :rolleyes: That'd be silly even by D&D standards, SAL.
Zelphi 08-02-04, 09:05 AM	A level 9 17 year old... that's a bit odd though...
Watchman 08-02-04, 09:28 AM	He's just led a busy and eventful life. :rolleyes: As the old Chinese curse goes, "may you live interesting times."
Ogg 08-02-04, 10:55 AM	I mean you've got your savant's in every society, plus in the real world medieval times you were dead usually by the time you hit 40. Obviously, the D&D world lets humans live by our age limits of today but it still doesn't negate the fact that we have teenagers regularly appearing now in major sports such as soccer & tennis and heck wasn't it Amadeus that was composing & writing at age 5? And really with splitting levels that's fine. You pay the price. Your a mish mosh of abilities. Your now M3/R3/F2/B2 now go out & find a level 10 monk & face him straight up in hand to hand. Odds are depending on your gear & pre-battle preps you'll probably end up on the loosing side. Obviously you'll excel at some other areas but you not as strong in the specific areas as pure classes are. Look at the skill points you'd have compared to for instance a pure rogue at 10th level. As an added pain your going to have to keep your levels in check. Assuming your human or half-elf, your highest level class is the only one that doesn't have to stay within one level of the rest without taking experience penalties. So that's gets added to the mix. True you got a little bit of everything, but your weaker in specific areas as a pure class would be.
Nick Soapdish 08-02-04, 05:03 PM	Three levels before puberty? Is the monastary sitting next to the Mountains of Despair or something? I dunno if it's twinkery or not, but I tend to be very suspicious of any character class combinations that rely on alignment changes. Also, I'm assuming this is a character that's starting at 9th level, rather than one that's played through those levels because it would be a real pain.
Daybreaker 08-02-04, 05:26 PM	He's not really meant to be particularly tough. Quite sneaky, and very hard to hit (at least that's what I'm going for), but he's not the tough guy in the party. He's the, "Hey, I've got a weird idea," guy. The Monastery, since someone asked, is in a small village. The head priest there, Father Michaelangelo (no relation to any ninja turtles), is a Monk who trains his students very rigorously. His students also tend to serve sort of like deputies and defenses for the village, so the villagers are generally pretty happy about having them around. The Monastery is actually called the Temple of the Rose. There are only a few men, the students are mostly nuns.
Ashenai 08-02-04, 10:55 PM	If I were your DM, I'd worry about this character being too weak, not too strong. I'd bend over backwards (in a non-obvious way) to help him out, making sure that he gets situations appropriate to his unique skills, so he can feel like a useful member of the party... because I'm pretty sure he's not going to shine in combat. I love DM'ing for characters like this, by the way. They're the most likely to do weird and wonderful things, and make the game more fun for everyone (me included). Go for it... and I hope your DM appreciates the character as much as I do.
Mitchell 08-02-04, 11:33 PM	Sometimes it isn't so bad. Munchkinism or twinkery is largely based on intent. I sometimes have taken it on myself to fill in for party needs. Maybe I start as a ranger, but find that the group has no rogue. Well, someone has to man up and do the job, so I multiclass. Then to make up for lost ground, I decide that maybe I need to go with fighter to cover some lost combat prowess... Hope that a few feats will help with the loss of some BAB, you know, a little focus here, maybe some specialization there. Later on I decide to take a PrC. On it goes. Personally, 4 classes seems like a lot, but a bard/rogue/fighter/monk just doesn't impress me as a power combo. Versatile? Yes. Uber? No.
Nick Soapdish 08-03-04, 12:38 AM	Well, to expand upon my earlier post ... I think that the alignment change makes it twinkish. Same with him getting all those levels as a kid (but apparently not having to play through the weakness). I mean, 5th level by age 15? But the specific combo isn't exactly twinkish. He'll have great saves because of the level one boost, but he'll probably be pretty weak in most other ways and it'll probably get worse as he continues to level up (depending somewhat on what class he eventually decides to go with). The age and the manner in which he gained levels is really the main sticking point in my opinion. I mean, if he started out as age 16 and just had a momentous couple of years adventuring and got to this level around 18 or 19, I'd have no problem with it. But I'm pretty impressed by whatever training the monk does that gets children up to 3rd level. And what the army went through that got a 5th level character up to 7th. They must've been awfully active. I don't especially like the idea of characters gaining levels simply through "intense training" since it brings up the question about why the PCs couldn't do that (unless you've got a time sensitive campaign) or why there are any low level characters around. Which I guess is a backhanded way of saying that it's not really twinkish.
lanilifar 08-03-04, 02:45 AM	Start older? I have seen plenty of people in their twenties change their outlook on life (but you don't even need that, for the alignment shift can still happen in the teens). It gets harder after that though (stubborn old man :)). 1st level monk, 15 3rd level by 16 or 17 Rebels and becomes a scoundrel/street thief/gang banger 1 or 2 years of that should be plenty for level 5 By 17 or 18, decides to be more productive (or he for some strange reason thinks the army will be easier than stealing, or more likely he was caught and can either join the army or lose a hand) Serves his four year term, holding off goblins, fighting the orcs, stopping trolls and ogres, helping annex a neighboring barony, etc. By 22, he is out of the army and decides to tell stories of his life and picks up stories and techniques from other wandering storytellers ; just not the settle down type, he wanders for couple of years, swapping stories over ale and food, perhaps learning to play a flute (the Kung-Fu thing had to come out, sorry). Starting age 24 years, 8 months Throw in a dashing scar or two, maybe some shoulder pain that acts up now and again from the injury the Hill Giant gave you. Maybe he likes helping people ; perhaps he likes manipulating them for his own advantage ; maybe he is just a mercenary with good stories ; perhaps he is always looking for satisfaction (the seeking being really what he is all about)
Daybreaker 08-03-04, 03:27 AM	Older, huh? Yeah, I could see that ... I don't think I'd want him to be any older than, say, 21. But about that old would be good.
Warspite 08-03-04, 01:30 PM	Not really twinkish based on the mix. There are plenty of perfectly legal things that are twinkish. The alignment switch is goofy, but then I see alignment as something that doesn't change based on a few hormones but is a ingrained world view that is very hard to depart from. As for the character itself, remember that he had to pay the experience penalty while gaining his levels as a fighter and a bard so his total experience is less than his comrades. Since this is apparently a starting character I am not sure if your DM is waiving this or if it is a 10th level starting campaign. If not for the monk levels in the mix (I am always suspicious as to why people add monk if they aren't playing a fairly straight monk) I wouldn't have any questions at all. Warspite
fractal 08-03-04, 02:21 PM	Originally posted by Warspite As for the character itself, remember that he had to pay the experience penalty while gaining his levels as a fighter and a bard so his total experience is less than his comrades. Since this is apparently a starting character I am not sure if your DM is waiving this or if it is a 10th level starting campaign. Monk is his highest level class. Therefore, it doesn't count towards experience penalties. He earns up to level 2 Rogue. Since Monk doesn't count, no problems there. He earns another level, and takes Fighter. No penalties, since up until that point, Rogue was his only non-Monk class. He earns a second level of Fighter. No penalties, because his Rogue and Fighter classes were within one level of each other. He earns another level, and takes Bard. No penalties, since Rogue and Fighter are within a level of each other. He earns a second level of Bard. No penalties, because Rogue, Fighter, and Bard classes are all within a level of each other. See? No experience penalties at all, and now that all four classes are within a level of each other, he is free to advance in whichever one he prefers. Anyway, as many posters have noted, this is certainly not a twinkish build. Saves will be good, but many of the other class features will not synergize. Monks want no armor, Fighters want lots. Stats will be a real problem unless your DM gives you all 18's, because Monks want Wis and Dex, Rogues want Dex and Int, Fighters want Str and Con, Bards want Cha and Int. (Oversimplified, of course, three of those classes are MAD and will want even more stats than that.) Monk and Rogue Evasion class features are redundant.
Dartanel 08-03-04, 02:25 PM	I had a PC start a campaign at level 1 at the age of 16 (Paladin, Joan-of-Arc meets Conan the barbarian kinda concept) Anyways, he managed to hit level 13 before the end of the first month of game time. Of course, he was involved in an apocalyptic battle for the fate of the world, so your mileage may vary. Then he took a year off, then hit level 15 before being dead for a year, then hit 20 by the time the war ended. Level 20 before finishing his 17th year. It's not impossible (depending of course if your DM uses the training rules or not)
Nick Soapdish 08-03-04, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by Dartanel I had a PC start a campaign at level 1 at the age of 16 (Paladin, Joan-of-Arc meets Conan the barbarian kinda concept) Anyways, he managed to hit level 13 before the end of the first month of game time. Of course, he was involved in an apocalyptic battle for the fate of the world, so your mileage may vary. Then he took a year off, then hit level 15 before being dead for a year, then hit 20 by the time the war ended. Level 20 before finishing his 17th year. It's not impossible (depending of course if your DM uses the training rules or not) But that's during active adventuring, not just training at the monastary or military service. If you gain 13,000 xp during two years of military service, you've probably had a pretty active tour of duty. And it strongly suggests that PCs probably won't want to mess with the military under pretty much any conditions. They'd be 5th level after only a couple years of service and that grizzled old sergeant is probably in the mid-teens.
Willie the Duck 08-03-04, 07:53 PM	level per age is hard to judge when you can go up so many levels per adventure in 3rd edition. Besides, I would have no problem with saying that Joan of Arc, Alexander the Great, or Chinghus Huang (yes, yes, Ghengis Khan) being name level before they turned 20.
Kingside_Bishop 08-04-04, 11:58 AM	I think that's a great character! A little iffy on the allignment change, but it could happen. What's this about no synergy between the classes? You can always synergize between non-casting classes. You've got a very stealthy character, so keep Hide and Move Silently maxed out. Since you've got trapfinding, and plenty of skill points, keep Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock maxed out. There-you're the party's scout. You've got automatic proficiency with the sai and the ability to use two of them. Take Expertise (which would elaborate on the "hard to hit" idea) and Improved Disarm, along with Weapon Finesse - Sai. Take Combat Reflexes, and Disarm anyone that comes near you. When it comes time to actually deal damage, use your unarmed skill to elbow, knee, headbutt, etc. so you don't have to drop your sai in the middle of combat. Maybe take Weapon Finesse - Unarmed to. Finesse your way into the duelist prestige class to the point where you get your full Int bonus to AC. And remeber that inspire courage can give you +1 to attack and damage, a little boost that might be helpful. With a few level of Rogue and Bard, make sure to max out Use Magic Device, and maybe get the party to scratch up some funds for a few wands and scrolls. Now, if the cleric goes down, you can heal him using that wand of cure moderate. This is especially useful because you can Tumble just about anywhere without provoking an attack of opportunity. Have the wizard make you scrolls (or buy them) of utility spells like Shield (cheap, and great bonus to AC when needed). Yes, sir, this is a fine character with great roleplaying and potentially great abilities to match.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-04-04, 01:12 PM	Originally posted by Daybreaker Is this automatically twinky? Anybody who makes a multiclass bard is probably not twinking anything.
Zat 08-04-04, 03:47 PM	As much as I like bards, anything with the bard class can't be twinking. And you have more role play potential than even Kingside_Bishop has offered. You've got half decent hid dice (4d6, 3d8 - I think monk has d8, and 2d10), saves that will wump most non rogue and/or monks to the ground, and skills that can do just about anything. Literally. Use your imagination.