Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bowmore 10-19-06, 10:55 PM	One recurring theme I've noticed with all these fighter 'fixes' is that they're more complicated than they need to be. People make up new abilities for them, make ability chains, create brand new mechanics for these abilities*, and all kinds of other things. Usually involving non-Euclidean geometry or math that uses theoretical numbers. One of my favourite aspects of the fighter is its simplicity. You write down some numbers, you pick some skills, then you pick a bunch of feats. That's how fighters work, and it's smooth and simple and beautiful. I'm not asking people to contribute their ideas for fighter fixes, or why or why not the fighter needs fixing. I'm just making an observation on the existing fixes. Who else has found that all these fixes are unnecessarily complicated and are going against the spirit of the fighter (simplicity)? *I'm guilty of this, too -- about a year ago, I attempted a 'fighter fix' that consisted of a desperation attack system. The attacks could only be performed when a fighter took a certain amount of damage, based on how many special attributes his desperation attack possessed and his maximum hit points. I ended up scrapping it because I saw that it was stupid and there were much better and simpler ways to 'fix' the fighter.
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 01:05 AM	Lots of them are too complicated, and I agree with you on that; but there are some. Some that are so beautiful it brings a tear to a grown man's eye to see something so pure laid out on a forum for all to see. The simplest, and in my opinion, most elegant, fix for the Fighter was Seerow's Combat Style variant.
Mitchell 10-20-06, 01:23 AM	The attempts to "fix" the fighter, whether I agree that it is a need or not, have the difficulty of dealing with the fact that there was only one thing inherent in the fighter's abilities that allowed for a simple fix, and often it was overlooked. Obviously, feats are/were the way to go, or more specifically, better payoffs at the end of feat chains. I guess that PHB II went some distance in helping out, but I do not yet own that book (and may or may not in the future). That being said, one still has to wonder if using scaling feats in the first place wouldn't have been a better way to go. Even though they now have some more powerful feats that they can choose, they do so at the cost of diversity. In order to get the better feats on the chains they have, they have to sacrifice in another area to be as effective as they maybe should have been at higher levels all along. I never attempted any fixes (nor do I recall ever offering any insight into any proposed fixes), but that is just my take on it.
Bowmore 10-20-06, 01:25 AM	Seerow's Combat Style Variant sounds interesting. Which thread was it in?
Seerow 10-20-06, 01:52 AM	It was early on in the Fighter Discussion Thread, and I've posted it here and there in these kinds of threads before. I don't really consider it a universal standalone fix, but it's a good place to start. Basically, a big problem with Fighters is everyone assumes they have feats to burn on all sorts of stuff, when really they don't. They -have- to specialize, or they fall behind, but a lot of people see them as generalists. However, giving them enough feats to really be generalists makes things really hard when leaving core, because you can get feat combos people may not have seen, and really, to have enough feats to make a difference you need more than one per level. So the solution? Give them feats, but not all at once. At level 4, then again at level 10, your feats split into separate styles, and you get two feats for everyone one you normally get. These styles may be switched between as a swift action (possibly allow an immediate action switch as a higher level ability, level 16ish). Each style is built based on the feats you already have, but you never have more bonus feats available to you than what a Fighter of your level normally would have. For a visual, your feat progression would look something like this: Feat6a Feat7a Feat8a Feat9a Feat10a Feat11a Feat3a Feat4a Feat5a Feat6b Feat7b Feat8b Feat9b Feat10b Feat11b Feat1a Feat2a Feat6c Feat7c Feat8c Feat9c Feat10c Feat11c Feat3c Feat4c Feat5c Feat6d Feat7d Feat8d Feat9d Feat10d Feat11d So at level 20, your combat styles look like: Combat Style1: 1a) 2a) 3a) 4a) 5a) 6a) 7a) 8a) 9a) 10a) 11a) Combat Style2: 1a) 2a) 3a) 4a) 5a) 6b) 7b) 8b) 9b) 10b) Combat Style3: 1a) 2a) 3c) 4c) 5c) 6c) 7c) 8c) 9c) 10c) 11c) Combat Style4: 1a) 2a) 3c) 4c) 5c) 6d) 7d) 8d) 9d) 10d) 11d) So all combat styles are going to share the same base two feats. Combat Style 1 and 2 share feats 3-5, while style 3 and 4 share feats 3-5. Past that they all continue individually. This works best if used in combination with Retraining, allowing a character to swap out lower level feats at higher levels, so they can be more generalized than they may have been at level 1, and have their more specialized feats as part of the combat styles. I know the whole thing sounds confusing at first, but once you wrap your mind around it, it's really fairly simple, and I feel an elegant way to boost the Fighter's versatility in combat.
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 02:03 AM	Damn you, Seerow!! I just spent a good half hour cruising the Discussion thread to find that chart, looking for a finalized version in a post (there wasn't one, as it turned out)... I had forgotten how much we actually talked in that thread.
Argaud 10-20-06, 02:07 AM	One of my favourite aspects of the fighter is its simplicity. You write down some numbers, you pick some skills, then you pick a bunch of feats. That's how fighters work, and it's smooth and simple and beautiful. You are confusing the fighter with the barbarian. The fighter in 3.5 is anything but simple :) You have to pick a handful of feats among over a hundred of them, and you need to make sure they have good synergy among them, too. That is not simple, it requires knowing how combat works in 3.5 very well and have experience using the tactical grid.
Seerow 10-20-06, 02:07 AM	Damn you, Seerow!! I just spent a good half hour cruising the Discussion thread to find that chart... I had forgotten how much we actually talked in that thread. XD, yeah. Kinda sad that it died off. But when it gets to the point where it's just Lokathor and I, plus anybody random who shows up, and the two of us reached a point of disagreement... well it had to die off. And actually, I spent a good half hour remaking that chart, because I'm never smart enough to save it, and always post it in those long discussions (the only other place I actually posted the chart is the "Does Pure Fighter Suck" thread, and that one's 3x longer, litterally). The other charts used arrows and such, like a flow chart. This time I was lazy and just did it the easy way. But it seems like it turned out alright. If you had AIM, things like this wouldn't be a problem TBQH
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 02:12 AM	Well, since you probably forgot to save the chart (again), I think it was on page 6 of the Discussion thread (which is on page 34 of this forum... dangerously close to deletion).
Seerow 10-20-06, 02:15 AM	I wasn't aware the forums here had an auto-deletion thing. o.0; And actually, I did save it this time, miraculously. It's in my file with my notes about the 'generalist fighter' fix. Though now I'm considering just giving him combat styles and a stance every 4 levels, and turn the class abilities from Archer and Tactical Fighter into Stances, and let him pick and choose. It keeps with the Fighter's current style anyway.
Sapp 10-20-06, 02:24 AM	You are confusing the fighter with the barbarian. The fighter in 3.5 is anything but simple :) You have to pick a handful of feats among over a hundred of them, and you need to make sure they have good synergy among them, too. That is not simple, it requires knowing how combat works in 3.5 very well and have experience using the tactical grid. Yes, seriously. "Simple classes" such as the barbarian have their class features handed to them. Casters are the most difficult still, because of the spell list (which changes every adventure unless you like to fill up the slots with fireballs and lightning bolts), but besides them, fighters are one of the most difficult brute classes to design. Relatively speaking, it's not simple. We're just more used to his current state with the feats. It's not that much simpler than Seerow's Combat Styles.
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 02:40 AM	fighters are one of the most difficult brute classes to design. Relatively speaking, it's not simple.So true. Also, I'm not sure if there is an auto-deletion on this forum. In retrospect, I don't think there is, since some of my class threads are still alive from over 3 months ago.
bitnine 10-20-06, 10:37 AM	This works best if used in combination with Retraining, allowing a character to swap out lower level feats at higher levels, so they can be more generalized than they may have been at level 1, and have their more specialized feats as part of the combat styles.You also might want to give the fighter the ability to, say, take an hour and rearrange his feat trees. Clever folk could probably nail things (with some preplanning) so that they qualify for every feat they want right on time and they fit mounting synergies into each tree with no waste - but if you're pushing for 'ease of use', I think such an ability would be good. Also represents a fairly believable adaptation of fighting style. Also, I'm not sure if there is an auto-deletion on this forum. In retrospect, I don't think there is, since some of my class threads are still alive from over 3 months ago.I think prunes are usually announced in advance and then run.
Bowmore 10-20-06, 11:12 AM	Point conceded about the fighter not being as simple as it looks. It's still disguised as a simple class though, isn't it? I mean, if someone is new to D&D and has a basic grasp of the game, and looks at the fighter for the first time and sees that all he gets are feats... what's he gonna think?
Riplox 10-20-06, 11:30 AM	Seerow. I have to hand it to ya. That revision is far too awesome to ignore. I'm going to submit it to my DM and see what he thinks. Also, I'm not sure if there is an auto-deletion on this forum. In retrospect, I don't think there is, since some of my class threads are still alive from over 3 months ago. Reply With Quote You're right about that, I have some classes on this board from over 3 years ago. But it might as well be deleted if it's going to be burried that far back. Nobody's gonna to find it. Now if they'd get the search back up, that would be different. Right now, I'm having trouble deciding how I want to build this fighter of mine. I need to come up with a good feat progression to maximize her two-weapon fighting style with a sword and shield. I want her to be a versatile tank, able to withstand not just physical, but magical attacks, and to be able to take down enemies efficiently and not just quickly. So I need a little help with feat selection (if anyone would be willing to help me.) Thanks. Stats : Human FTR, Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14 Also, if I'm using a shield as a weapon as well as a shield, can I take Two-Weapon Defense to boost my AC?
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 12:19 PM	Also, if I'm using a shield as a weapon as well as a shield, can I take Two-Weapon Defense to boost my AC?Technically yes, but multiple shield boni to AC don't stack anyways.
Wolf_Boy 10-20-06, 12:19 PM	Seerow that is an awesome way to handle fighters, I'm definately going to use that system, though I think switching styles should be a bit harder, maybe a move action. I also think fighter should be gain the ability warblades get to switch their specific weapon proficiencies as well.
LordPendragon 10-20-06, 12:23 PM	I also think fighter should be gain the ability warblades get to switch their specific weapon proficiencies as well.I find that weapon group proficiencies from UA handle that fairly well, when combined with feat retraining from PHBII.
Wolf_Boy 10-20-06, 12:37 PM	I find that weapon group proficiencies from UA handle that fairly well, when combined with feat retraining from PHBII. Yeah maybe, but in my case I'm not really a fan of feat retraining.
Tony Vargas 10-20-06, 12:46 PM	One recurring theme I've noticed with all these fighter 'fixes' is that they're more complicated than they need to be. True. The fighter has a certain elegance of design that's not found in most other classes. Since fighter fixes tend to try to bring the fighter closer in performance to casters (or at least barbarians), however, that means giving him more powerful, more limitted abilities - and that's going to be more complicated.
Seerow 10-20-06, 01:23 PM	You also might want to give the fighter the ability to, say, take an hour and rearrange his feat trees. Clever folk could probably nail things (with some preplanning) so that they qualify for every feat they want right on time and they fit mounting synergies into each tree with no waste - but if you're pushing for 'ease of use', I think such an ability would be good. Also represents a fairly believable adaptation of fighting style An hour feels too fast to me. Really, a Fighter's feats define him and how he is viewed by the world. Being able to change your signature feats with just an hour and almost no downtime seems too easy. Hrm... looking at the retraining rules again, it actually is a bit off. But I'd say it takes a minimum of 1 day or a week per feat, but you can do it at any time, rather than only when you level up. But yeah, an hour just seems too fast IMO Seerow. I have to hand it to ya. That revision is far too awesome to ignore. I'm going to submit it to my DM and see what he thinks. Always happy to hear somebody likes it. Right now, I'm having trouble deciding how I want to build this fighter of mine. I need to come up with a good feat progression to maximize her two-weapon fighting style with a sword and shield. I want her to be a versatile tank, able to withstand not just physical, but magical attacks, and to be able to take down enemies efficiently and not just quickly. So I need a little help with feat selection (if anyone would be willing to help me.) Thanks. Stats : Human FTR, Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14 Also, if I'm using a shield as a weapon as well as a shield, can I take Two-Weapon Defense to boost my AC? Two Weapon Fighting Chain, Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter (try to get this to be used in place of Two Weapon Fighting for prereq purposes. So you go Agile Shield Fighter->ITWF->GTWF), Shield Ward, Endurance/Steadfast Determination, maybe a few other things I'm forgetting. Best places to look for feat ideas is Races of Stone and PHBII. If you go the specialization Route, get the aptitude property on your shield. Also consider spikes and the bashing property, to get 2d6 base damage on your shield. Seerow that is an awesome way to handle fighters, I'm definately going to use that system, though I think switching styles should be a bit harder, maybe a move action. I also think fighter should be gain the ability warblades get to switch their specific weapon proficiencies as well. Thanks, again I'm always glad to hear people like it. I don't really think it should be a move action. Unlike the idea of completely changing out feats, which should be hard, these are all feats the Fighter has mastered, and has figured out his own unique way to combine into his styles, think of it like a stance if you must. The idea is each of these styles is so familliar to him, all it would take to shift from one to the other would be changing his footing and posture, and maybe change his grip on his weapon(s)/shield. This is the sort of thing that can be done in the blink of an eye. Besides, Fighters are hurting for mobility bad enough already. Other ideas I have include a second 5-ft step per round, and some of the feats from the Fighter Discussion Thread that grant things similar to Air Walk and Greater Dimension Door. Giving the Warblade's weapon aptitude isn't a bad idea though. It really is something Fighters should have had from the start. The trouble is, that encourages having a single weapon at a time, which kind of conflicts with the idea behind the Combat Styles. Really, specialization in general conflicts with that. I can see one style being spent on specializing with one weapon, but you really wouldn't expect more than that. And with the way aptitude works, if you change say, all your longsword specialization feats to Bow specialization feats, those bow specialization feats could wind up completely useless to you, as the rest of the feats in that style are likely melee oriented, while your ranged feats are part of a different combat style. I mean, it could go in there with it, but it doesn't synergize particularly well.
Jerks 10-20-06, 02:57 PM	Yeah, I'm still a fan of fixing the fighter from within. For my vote, fixing feats is the way to go. There are instances of feats providing additional benefit to certain classes (such as Stunning Fist for monks). I've always thought that Fighter bonus feats should provide an additional boost for Fighters in some way. Each individual bonus doesn't have to be major, but maybe something resembling the Incarnum bonuses. Dodge for example could add an additional +1 bonus as a charcter gains additional bab attacks. Weapon Focus could allow you to do damage as if your weapon were one size category larger at level 8 and above...and so on and so on. PHBII does help. The feats there are money but still not really exclusive to the fighter.
Clawhound 10-20-06, 04:22 PM	My main problem with fighter fixes is that these fixes focus on attack bonuses and damage. Sometimes they give abilities. Often enough, they only change the point where you say, "The fighter has a problem." They don't fix the real problems: - Mobility - Exotic defenses - Out-of-combat expertise - Exceeding threshholds (the ability to do amazing things) - Resource control/power level control Better feats are slowly helping a whole lot. Even better, feats written for fighter. "You learn to wield a spear like the wind. Prereqs: Knowledge (arcana) 10, Spellcraft 10. This is a fighter bonus feat." I find feats like this absolutely stupid.
Schmendrick 10-20-06, 06:51 PM	I like to think mine is elegant...
Wolfvyn 10-20-06, 08:36 PM	One quick off topic question, how does the shield damage get up to 2d6? the spike increases the damage as if it were one category larger and bashing lets a heavy shield deal 1d8 so wouldn't that make it 1d10 not 2d6?
Seerow 10-20-06, 09:50 PM	I believe the DMG lists 1d8 as increasing to 2d6. I'll double check in a bit.
Wolfvyn 10-20-06, 10:05 PM	opps you're right it does go up to 2d6, my mistake.
Seerow 10-20-06, 11:58 PM	Okay, Wolfvyn PMed me asking for a more concrete example of what the Combat Style Fighter could do. I figured it might help if I just posted the reply here since there were a few others who were interested. Sure. A level 20 fighter may look something like this at the end. As an explanation, all of the weapon focus/specialization feats should be taken in some weapon that can be used as melee or ranged (such as a throwing axe or dagger). Then get the Aptitude Property on all other weapons. It's a +1 enhancement from Tome of Battle that lets a weapon with it be treated as if any weapon specific feats you had apply to it. From there, either get yourself a Bow, some one handed piercing weapon, and a Reach Weapon (I assumed a Halberd or Glaive, hence Short Haft). Or just get a single weapon and make it Morphing. Note, this is definitely not the best or only way to build something using this system, but it gets the point across in how versatile the different styles make you, which is the point. Note how as a swift action he goes from being a tactical controller (style one) to a Tank (style two), to being able to treat a bow as a semi-auto machine gun(style three), to being an excellent sniper(style four). Note how all four styles share the same two innitial feats. Then the first two share feats 3-5, and the second two share feats 3-5. This is because the styles branch out, and always have the same base, they just become more specialized as you get further along. That's why I recommended allowing retraining of some form, so early on you don't have to choose "Do I want to be effective now or do I want to be effective when my combat styles kick in", he simply specializes early, then diversifies himself as combat styles become available to him. Normal Feats: 1) Weapon Focus 2) Combat Expertise 3) Weapon Specialization 4) Quick Draw 5) Greater Weapon Focus 6) Greater Weapon Specialization 7) Weapon Supremacy Style1 Area Control: 1) Improved Initiative 2) Dodge 3) Power Attack 4) Melee Weapon Mastery 5) Combat Reflexes 6) Short Haft 7) Stand Still 8) Mage Slayer 9) Leap Attack 10) Combat Tactitian 11) Driving Attack Style2 Weapon and Board: 1) Improved Initiative 2) Dodge 3) Power Attack 4) Melee Weapon Mastery 5) Combat Reflexes 6) Mobility 7) Shield Specialization 8) Shield Ward 9) Endurance 10) Steadfast Determination 11) Elusive Target Style3 Close up Archery: 1) Improved Initiative 2) Dodge 3) Point Blank Shot 4) Ranged Weapon Mastery 5) Precise Shot 6) Rapid Shot 7) Manyshot 8) Improved Manyshot 9) Defensive Archery 10) Improved Rapid Shot 11) Penetrating Shot Style4 Sniping Archery: 1) Improved Initiative 2) Dodge 3) Point Blank Shot 4) Ranged Weapon Mastery 5) Precise Shot 6) Deadeye Shot 7) Far Shot 8) Woodland Archer 9) Able Sniper 10) Improved Precise Shot 11) Plunging Shot
Eyeless Blond 10-21-06, 05:54 AM	Okay, Wolfvyn PMed me asking for a more concrete example of what the Combat Style Fighter could do. I figured it might help if I just posted the reply here since there were a few others who were interested. Indeed, very interesting. I'm pretty sure I get the concept, now that I've read it a couple of times. Translating it into the absurd sort of leagalese that WotC uses for the SRD and books, though, could be an interesting challenge. Let's see how this would work... Seerowan Combat Style Fighter The Seerowan fighter is a true savant of the field of battle. Rather than concentrating on brute strength as the barbarians do, the violent survivalist aspects of nature as a ranger, or the pursuit of higher goals as the paladins, a fighter concentrates on--and excells at--one thing: battle. A consummate master of the field, a Seerowan fighter has come to understand a number of different styles of combat, each explored to a depth that no other class, even those who are considered to be first-class warriors in their own right, can hope to match. Alignment- Any. Hit Die- d10. Class Skills The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level- (2 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level- 2 + Int modifier. Table: Seerowan Combat Style Fighter Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Combat Style (2 styles: A, B) Style feat (A, B) 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Style feat (A, B) 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Style feat (A, B) 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Combat Style (4 styles: AA, AB, BA, BB) Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Style feat (AA, AB, BA, BB) Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency- A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats- At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Combat Style (Ex)- At 4th level, a fighter begins to develop a number of distinctly different styles of combat. A small change in grip, a slight shifting of his stance, just a few small movements can shift the properly trainned fighter from a brutish combat thug into a whirling dervish, or even an archer if the battle conditions call for one. Combat styles are represented by distinct "chains" of feats. A fighter adopts a single chain at a time, combining the feats in that chain to create a specific combat style. Only one combat style, and thus one chain of feats, can be active at any one time. The fighter doesn't forget the other styles; they simply cannot all be used at the same time. Combat styles can be switched with a swift* action. At 4th level the fighter develops two styles: style A and style B. Style A combines the style feats taken under style A; style B the feats under style B. At level 10 the fighter evolves the two styles further, creating four styles: AA, AB, BA and BB. Each Style combines new style feats with one of the previous styles, as described by the first letter of the style. Thus, Style AA combines the style feats taken under style AA, along with the style feats taken under style A. Style BA combines Style BA feats with Style B feats, and so on. See the Style Feat feature for rules concerning these special style feats. Feats not marked as Style feats are unaffected by a fighter's Combat Style ability. Style feats- At 4th level, a fighter chooses two combat-oriented feats, one for each style (A and B). These can be the same feat, though it is generally not intelligent to do so. These feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. Each feat is marked with the style it belongs to; it is used only in that combat style and not the other (see Combat Style above). The fighter chooses an additional feat for each style at 6th and 8th level. At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter (12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th), the fighter chooses four feats, one for each style (AA, AB, BA, and BB). A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a style feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. Previous style feats can be used to meet these requirements, so long as they are from either the same style, or a style that is combined with that style. A 12th level fighter can, for instance, choose Mobility as his Style-BA feat for that level if he has chosen Dodge has his 10th level Style-BA feat, or his 6th level Style-B feat, but not if he only chose it for his Style A feat. --------------------------------------- One reason I like this writeup, particularly the table above, is it suggests a relatively straightforward and clear way to organize the feats in a class build, which otherwise would be rather complex-looking. Specifically, your build's feats would look like: 1st Weapon Focus (F: Improved Initiative) 2nd (F: Dodge) 3rd Combat Expertise 4th (F: A-Power Attack B- Point Blank Shot) 5th 6th Weapon Specialization (F: A-Melee Weapon Mastery B-Ranged Weapon Mastery) 7th 8th (F: A-Combat Reflexes B-Precise Shot) 9th Quick Draw 10th (F: AA-Short Haft AB-Mobility BA-Rapid Shot BB-Deadeye Shot) 11th 12th Quick Draw (F: AA-Stand Still AB-Shield Specialization BA-Manyshot BB-Far Shot) 13th 14th (F: AA-Mage Slayer AB-Shield Ward BA-Improved Manyshot BB-Woodland Archer) 15th Greater Weapon Specialization 16th (F: AA-Leap Attack AB-Endurance BA-Defensive Archery BB-Able Sniper) 17th 18th Weapon Supremacy (F: AA-Combat Tactitian AB-Steadfast Determination BA-Improved Rapid Shot BB-Improved Precise Shot) 19th 20th (F: AA-Driving Attack AB-Elusive Target BA-Penetrating Shot BB-Plunging Shot) That looks... a little more readable, doesn't it? Certainly it's more compact. Is there a thread where you are doing the development for this? I've got a few other considerations to add in.
Seerow 10-21-06, 12:05 PM	No, I don't have a thread discussing this yet, as I had planned on finishing my full overhaul of the Fighter, and have started a new job recently so have been delayed in being able to do as much as I'd like. But I do love the condensed writeup you did, it cleaned it up a lot, as you can probably tell I had a lot of difficulty trying to figure out how to clearly get across the point of the system, and the whole thing looks a lot more complicated on paper than it likely would be in play. (I could see a Fighter with 4 index cards representing his four styles, and just pulling out whichever one he has active at the time) Probably sometime within the week I'll be starting a new topic though. Basically I'm going to combine this with a couple of generic abilities and the ability to select stances, either from the Martial Adepts (at the normal 1/2 IL) or from a list of Stances that were innitially developed for more specialized Fighter variants that were worked on in the Fighter Discussion topic, that was eventually dropped because they simply got too much for me to honestly claim they're balanced. I'm also toying with a few other ideas, but more on that when I actually do something. Really, it's mostly done, it's just a matter of getting a full writeup and making a topic, and you just contributed a great deal with your post there. If I get off my ass I can have a full new topic up tomorrow. PS: The Seerowan Fighter? XD That name strikes me as hillarious for some reason.
goblinbonez 10-21-06, 03:57 PM	I would just up the number and power of the feats. 1: More bonus feats. Not a lot more. Something like a bonus feat at first level and every three levels after that and a bonus feat at second level and every three levels after that. This would replace the current fighter bonus feat accumulation. With this new accumulation system a fight would gain 14 Bonus feats. As apposed to 11 under the current rules. After 20th level the bonuses would continue accumulating at the same rate. Level 1----- Bonus feat 2----- Bonus feat 3----- 4----- Bonus feat 5----- Bonus feat 6----- 7----- Bonus feat 8----- Bonus feat 9----- 10---- Bonus feat 11---- Bonus feat 12---- 13---- Bonus feat 14---- Bonus feat 15---- 16---- Bonus feat 17---- Bonus feat 18---- 19---- Bonus feat 20---- Bonus feat 2: Allow stacking with other effects for some feats. Improved critical is a good example. It can not be stacked with keen edge. This spell makes the blade of a weapon sharper. The feat improves the character’s ability to use the weapon. I see no reason the two should not stack. In determining stacking order spells / effects on the weapon go first. Then character feats / permanent abilities. Last are spells / temporary effects on the character. 3: More powerful feats. Bridge the gap between the greater weapon feats and the epic weapon feats. And beef up the epic weapon feats. Name: Extraordinary weapon Focus Prerequisites: Proficiency with weapon, weapon focus with weapon, greater weapon focus with weapon, weapon spec. with weapon, greater weapon spec. with weapon, fighter 16th level. Benefit: +3 bonus on attack rolls selected with weapon. Name: Extraordinary weapon Spec. Prerequisites: Proficiency with weapon, weapon focus with weapon, greater weapon focus with weapon, weapon spec. with weapon, greater weapon spec. with weapon, fighter 20th level. Benefit: +6 damage with selected weapon. Name: Epic weapon Focus Prerequisites: Proficiency with weapon, weapon focus with weapon, greater weapon focus with weapon, weapon spec. with weapon, greater weapon spec. with weapon, fighter 21st level. Benefit: +4 bonus on attack rolls selected with weapon. Name: Epic weapon Spec. Prerequisites: Proficiency with weapon, weapon focus with weapon, greater weapon focus with weapon, weapon spec. with weapon, greater weapon spec. with weapon, fighter 21st level. Benefit: +8 damage with selected weapon. 4: Make some epic feats non-epic. Wield oversized weapon is a feat that should be usable by fighters of 15th level or higher. Fixing the fighter class could be just that simple.
Seerow 10-21-06, 10:07 PM	Sadly, your whole thing really fixes nothing. All it does is give the Fighter more +s to hit and damage he doesn't really need, and encourages more specialization, which again isn't the Fighter's problem. Depending on the epic feat, that may help. But frankly, most epic feats just flat out suck, and aren't worth being epic.
goblinbonez 10-22-06, 12:53 PM	OK. Seerow, I looked at the solution you proposed. I am a little confused. Perhaps you could give a more detailed explanation. An example would be good. Also, what about scalable feat? Rather then have a number of feats that improve on the last. One feat that becomes stronger as the character moves up in fighter levels. Would that help with the specialization problem?
Seerow 10-22-06, 01:01 PM	1) I dunno, I think the reposting by Eyeless Blond is really the best I can think of. Take a look at the examples, and watch how the feat trees branch out from each other. 2) Scalable feats are good. In fact, from the Fighter Discussion Thread, I have a large number of such feats on a file (Dubbed The List) But I really need to go through them, because some of them, like the innitial fighter fixes they were designed to go with, give too much. Though personally, I prefer scalable feats being available to everyone (there was an extended debate on that actually), I personally think it should be based on BAB, because frankly, -all- martial classes need a boost. If you're only going to fix feats, then it's fine to make them Fighter only. But if you give the Fighter a boost and some actual class features, there's no reason to not make scaling feats available to everyone, the Fighter just gets -more- of them.
Eyeless Blond 10-22-06, 02:04 PM	Near the bottom of page 1 Seerow gave a pretty good example of his fighter rework. You might have missed it because it was behind [ sblock ] tags. Anyway he's apparently going to be starting a new topic on his version soon, so the discussion should be best moved there when it comes. Rather than posting fixes, I think this thread ought to be dealing with specific shortcomings that a fighter fix should have to deal with. Clawhound had some good ones earlier in the thread that bear discussion: 1- Mobility 2- Exotic defenses 3- Out-of-combat expertise 4- Exceeding threshholds (the ability to do amazing things) 5- Resource control/power level control 6- Item-dependence; too much -- my own addition, see below. On 1- Mobility, I agree that fighters in particular tend to have problems. Of all the classes, fighters are the only ones stuck in heavy armor without any native way to increase their speed. Clerics, rangers, bards, wizards, and sorcerers have spells (and most don't rely on melee anyway); paladins have their mount; barbarians get a speed boost at 1st level; rogues are in lighter armor and have UMD to cheaply cast speed-boosting spells. Without movement there is no battle. At higher levels where everyone else is flying hither and yon over the battlefield the fighter tends to get left behind. So this is definately a legitimate concern. On 2- Exotic defenses the problem isn't that the fighter doesn't have any--most classes don't. The problem is his inability to cope with changes in battlefield conditions. To a certain extent many other classes have this problem as well: wizards have problems coping when they've prepared the wrong attack spells for the day; barbarians tend to be one-trick ponies in their own right, and have problems when their one trick doesn't help. Fighters, though, stand to become an NPC class (specifically the Warrior)the moment an enemy pulls off a clever maneuver and changes the nature of the battlefield. A dragon takes to the air, and all of a sudden the melee-focused fighter has to pull out a bow and all his precious feats are useless. 3- Out-of-combat expertise is obviously another area that fighters tend to have a problem with. Even barbarians have trap sense and a useful smattering of skills to make them useful out of battle. The fighters get, well, Ride, which is decidedly an out-of-combat skill after level 2-3 as mounts don't generally get increased HD with level (see problem #1). 4- Exceeding threshholds (the ability to do amazing things) isn't so much a problem at low-mid levels, or even so much at high levels below 17-20. I think this is more of a stylistic issue than a real substansive problem with the class as a whole, and can basicaaly be summed up in four words: "The class is boring!" :) You get to the final boss fight of a dungeon. The enormous dragon/evil lich//whatever roars menacingly at you. Everyone else casts their most powerful spells, powers up their strongest class abilities, run screaming into battle, while you, the fighter...? You do exactly the same things you've been doing the entire adventure. Boring. Thing is, it's okay to be boring. Bards tend to be fairly boring as well; their main contribution to a party being their music, after using it they're about as powerful and useful in combat as the NPC Adept class. This one really isn't an issue, I think, leastways not nearly so much as the other ones are. 5- Resource control/power level control I don't quite get what this one is addressing. What's the problem here? I do have one more to add myself as well, and it mainly comes from reading the rants of the "Fighter is balanced" crowd. When answering the objections to 1-4, the pro-fighter-is-balanced crowd inevitably brings up how items, especially command-word and use-activated items, can make up for the fighter's deficiencies compared to other classes. While this is no doubt the case, the inevitable result is that fighters are forced to spread their cash resources around far too thin, just to catch up to where every other class already is. So, for my next consideration, I commend 6- Item-dependence; too much. This brings the list to: 1- Mobility 2- Exotic defenses 3- Out-of-combat expertise 4- Exceeding threshholds (the ability to do amazing things) 5- Resource control/power level control 6- Item-dependence; too much Are there any others? Anyone have something specific to add to these?
Eyeless Blond 10-22-06, 02:23 PM	If you're only going to fix feats, then it's fine to make them Fighter only. But if you give the Fighter a boost and some actual class features, there's no reason to not make scaling feats available to everyone, the Fighter just gets -more- of them. Hm. To be honest I don't much care for scaling feats. I especially don't like scaling feats that are tied to the character's level in a specific class. That's the sort of thing that you make into a class feature. But scalable feats in general just don't appeal to me, mostly because they have far-reaching balance effects. A feat that you get now affects the power that you get now, and no other time in your advancement. If you start to add in scaling feats, then those feats that you got five levels ago may or may not still be affecting the power level of the build, further on in your advancement. It creates a slippery slope that makes balancing classes even harder than it already is. I'm more in favor of making the higher-level feats stronger than having the lower-level feats scale in power. It's also a bit difficult to manage balance in this way, as you have to pay careful attention to how many feats a character can acquire over the course of his career, but it does make the process more manageable at any specific level. Doing it this way you can work out balance one level at a time, without worrying about higher levels until you actually get to writing the powers of those higher levels. And thanks for the vote of confidence Seerow. I'm looking forward to seeing how the next iteration turns out.
LordPendragon 10-22-06, 02:57 PM	I see that The List is still important enough to have a special font.
LordPendragon 10-22-06, 02:58 PM	To be honest I don't much care for scaling feats. I especially don't like scaling feats that are tied to the character's level in a specific class.The scaling feats are all designed to scale with BAB, not class level (which I think is perfect, since BAB represents basic combat ability, and combat feats should scale based on combat ability, don't you think??).
Wolfvyn 10-22-06, 03:31 PM	Well I think what the resource control thing is about is that a fighters resourcs are much easier to control than any other characters. He just has to keep an eye on his hp, keep in mind a few combat modifiers and know what his feats and magic items can do. He generally has access to all his tricks all the time. The fighters are balanced crowd seems to think that not having to carefully monitor the expenditure of spells and having the ability to continuelly use his "abilities" every single round as long as he remains conscious makes up for the lack of "burst" power or out of combat utility. Of course items like scrolls, wands and even a light crossbow (every class is proficent with a light crossbow. It might not be elegant or powerful, but it's certainly effective) that allows them to contribute something every round with out needing to use thier spells. I'm sure someone will comment that wands and scrolls are expenive, time consuming, ect and that with their the low BAB, scarcity of feats and low damage that crossbow are only helpful at lower lvls, but we're getting off the point which is what are the fighters weak points and how can a fighter effectively compensate. A problem I see with fighters, and I'll readily admit it's caused as much by the player/Dm as it is by the game rules, is their role in a party. A fighter shouldn't just be regulated to the role of meatsheild and caster nanny. Keeping the less hardy members of the party from being squished isn't a group niche or class role, it's a natural human reaction when your friends are in danger and as such shouldn't be considered as the classes primary focus or purpose. His purpose and focus is killing or otherwise achieving and keeping tactical and strategic goals. I'll admit that keeping the caster alive is a tactical and strategic goal because of the ultitiy of power of his spells, but thats just one of any number of goals that can present themselves in an encounter and the fighter should be better able to achieve these goals than other classes because that's what he has been training his whole life to do.
Eyeless Blond 10-22-06, 04:19 PM	The scaling feats are all designed to scale with BAB, not class level (which I think is perfect, since BAB represents basic combat ability, and combat feats should scale based on combat ability, don't you think??). Most already do, when you put it that way. Look at Weapon Focus, for instance. Looking at it one way, it's a +5% chance that you'll hit an enemy, yes. Looked at another way, at BAB +1 it changes your to-hit to +2, but at BAB +15 it changes your to-hit to +16, ergo scaling with level. But let's say you make the feat itself "scaling". That is, your Weapon Focus feat increases to +2 at BAB+7, then +3 at BAB+12, then +4 at BAB+17, etc. Well, then not only do you have to take that Weapon Focus feat into account at the level you took it, but you also have to factor in the increased power at Fighter levels 7, 12, and 17. Of course, this is only if you took pure Fighter levels; if you dipped into a 3-level Ranger multiclass then that feat will affect fighter levels 4, 9, and 14 instead. Or if... See how that makes things more complicated? Non-"scaling" feats you don't have to worry about stuff like this; when you get a feat you only have to worry about how that feat affects that level, then you don't have to worry about it. With "scaling" feats you have to take into account how that feat's "scaling" will cascade upward with level, and have to design your future classes appropriately. This is why casters have always had balance problems, what with their lower level spells scaling for free, to a point, and why psionics are so much easier to balance, what with you having to pay extra every level to scale up their power.