Post/Author/DateTime	Post
smallfishnova 03-23-06, 11:09 PM	I have a multi-class wizard (Clr 4 Wiz 5 Mystic Theurge 10 Archamge 5) and take the improved familiar feat, actually i have practiced spellcaster (wizard) too. Could i choose a pesudodragon as a familiar. (I think i can since i am a 20th level acrane spell caster, as the feat stated that the requirement is "acrane spellcaster level".) So, if i can choose a pesudodragon as a familiar, which adjustment should i add to the familiar? (The feat stated that the requirement is "Master class level". And so my friend say that i should adjust it as 5th level wizard statistic. Actually, i should use 5th, 20th, or 24th statistics?) If i use the 5th level wizard adjustment to the pesudodragon, the Int score would be 8 or 10? The description does not say about it. Thx for answer these questions. ^_^
Tisner44 03-23-06, 11:37 PM	Well if I'm right you would only have 5 levels for the familiar and thats it since none of the other classes give access to a familiar. I don't have improved familiar in front of me, but does a Pseudodragon lose any levels for being more powerful or does the feat overide that option? not sure. :confused:
Gideon_Gideonson 03-23-06, 11:42 PM	Tisner is correct. Unless the class specifically says so, you gain no additional familiar abilities from it. You also might want to check on his question about the familiar level penalty for the Psuedodragon. You get it at level 7, if I remember correctly. That could mean level 7, or it counts as a familiar of a caster 7 levels lower (in which case you can't have it), or you need a familiar possessing class level of 7 (in which case, I also think you can't have it).
smallfishnova 03-24-06, 12:29 AM	IMPROVED FAMILIAR [GENERAL] This feat allows spellcasters to acquire a new familiar from a nonstandard list, but only when they could normally acquire a new familiar. Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below). Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to the spellcaster. The spellcaster may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each of the alignment axes (lawful through chaotic, good through evil). Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level Shocker lizard Neutral 5th Stirge Neutral 5th Formian worker Lawful neutral 7th Imp Lawful evil 7th Pseudodragon Neutral good 7th Quasit Chaotic evil 7th Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: If the creature’s type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate). The list in the table above presents only a few possible improved familiars. Almost any creature of the same general size and power as those on the list makes a suitable familiar. Nor is the master’s alignment the only possible categorization. For instance, improved familiars could be assigned by the master’s creature type or subtype, as shown below. Familiar Type/Subtype Arcane Spellcaster Level Celestial hawk1 Good 3rd Fiendish Tiny viper snake2 Evil 3rd Air elemental, Small Air 5th Earth elemental, Small Earth 5th Fire elemental, Small Fire 5th Shocker lizard Electricity 5th Water elemental, Small Water 5th Homunculus3 Undead 7th Ice mephit Cold 7th 1 Or other celestial animal from the standard familiar list. 2 Or other fiendish animal from the standard familiar list. 3 The master must first create the homunculus, substituting ichor or another part of the master’s body for blood if necessary. Here is the feat description in SRD. Actually, the feat is in the DMG. Since it stated Arcane spellcaster level. I think i can have the pesudodragon without any negative level adjustment (The feat doesn't mention about it). Actually, i think the problem is "Master Level". Does it means that only class level with summon familiar counted as master level? Since the familiar hit dice is treated as the same Hit Dice as the master's character level. So, i am a bit confused about it...
Puca 03-24-06, 10:19 AM	The type of familiar you can choose is based on Arcane Caster Level. Your Arcane Caster level with a Clr 4/Wiz 5/MT 10/Archamge 5 and Practiced Spellcaster is 20. Yes, a Pseudodragon is well within your range of options. What is limited to your purely wizard levels are the familiar benefits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm). With five wizard levels, your familiar would only gain the benefits of that level: +3 natural armor, Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master. You wouldnt get the Scry on Familiar, or the Spell Resistence for the familiar, or +10 natural armor for the familair that a straight level 20 wizard would, but thats all you miss out on.
Father Dale 03-24-06, 10:43 AM	The Obtain Familiar feat in Complete Arcane seems to let you add the levels from all your arcane spellcasting classes together to determine the abilities of the familiar. Theres no prohibition against taking the feat if you can already summon a familiar, so that might be a way to bump up the familiars abilities. (Note that the familiars abilities are based on "class level" not "caster level," so Practiced spellcaster wouldn't help boost it up.) I don't see any problem with allowing this either, as a character who can already get a familiar gets less benefit from this feat than one who does not. For instance, a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 who took this feat both gets a new ability--summoning a familiar--and gets to treat it as if he were a Wizard 20. The Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 who took this feat does not get any new abilities since he can already summon a familiar, but he just gets to treat it as if he were a Wizard 20. I also agree with the OP that taking Improved Familiar would let him obtain a Pseudodragon familiar. The feat doesn't require X amount of levels in a familiar granting class, it requires a minimum arcane caster level. Once the new improved familiar is taken, it gets the same abilities that a normal familir for that master would, based on the master's levels in familiar granting classes. (It doesn't work the same as say, a non-standard special mount, which gets abilities at a slower rate than a normal special mount.) So the OP could take Improved Familiar and get a Pseudodragon with the Nat. Armor, Intelligence and familiar abilities of a 5th lvl wizard. Its hitpoints, BAB, skills, and saving throws would be based on the master's, regardless of the master's class combination. If he took the Obtain Familiar feat as well, the pseudodragon would get the Nat Armor, Int, and familiar abilities as a wizard with levels equal to the total of all his arcane spellcasting classes, which in the OPs case seems to be 20. None of this changes the fact that taking the Improved Familiar feat at epic levels is extremely sub optimal, and produces a significant liability in the familiar of losing a butt load of experience realy easily. :D
smallfishnova 03-25-06, 03:59 AM	Thx for answer my questions. But i still jave something confused. 1. The basic Int score of a pesudodragon is 10 (according to MM) and the 5th level wizard's familiar adjustment set the familiar to Int 8. Is it a must for me to have a pesudodragon of Int 8? 2. For interest only, A Sor 10/Wiz 10 would have a familiar with 20th level adjustment without the obtain familiar feat?
Father Dale 03-25-06, 04:59 AM	1. You would use either the creatures normal Int or its familiar based Int, whichever is higher. In your case, since the pseudodragon's normal Int is 10 and its higher than the familiar based 8, it would have Int of 10. The same holds true for skill points. The familiar will have the same skill ranks in a skill as the master, unless the familiar normally has better skill ranks in a particular skill, in which case you would use the familiar's normal skill ranks. e.g. a rat familiar normally has 4 ranks in Move Silently (which together with its +4 racial bonus and +2 Dex gives it a +10 total). His Wizard Master has 1 rank in Move Silently. The rat would still have his normal Move Silently ranks, since they are higher than his Master's. If the Master someday ended up putting 5 ranks into Move Silently, then the rat would would also have 5 ranks in Move Silently. 2. Yes. You combine all classes that grant a familiar to determine the familiar's abilities, and you can never have more than one familiar, no matter how many classes you have that grant one. Thus, a Sorc 10/Wiz 10 would have a familiar with 20th lvl abilities, since both Sorcerer and Wizard are classes that grant familiars. A Sorc 10/Wiz 5/Loremaster 5 would have a familiar with only 15th lvl abilities since Loremaster is not a class that grants a familiar.
sparkster4242 03-26-06, 04:57 PM	dale: the Obtain Familiar feat from Complete Arcane wouldnt help in this case - this build only has one class that allows it to cast arcane spells: Wizard. Obtain Familiar would only duplicate the Wizard's ability, at least until another level in an arcane spellcasting class is taken.
Father Dale 03-26-06, 09:52 PM	dale: the Obtain Familiar feat from Complete Arcane wouldnt help in this case - this build only has one class that allows it to cast arcane spells: Wizard. How do you figure? You used the right language from the feat: "classes that allow you to cast arcane spells." So the question is what exactly are classes that "allow you to cast arcane spells." My interpretation of this would be any class that has arcane "spells per day" as a class feature. This would include Mystic Theurge and Archmage. It would also include something like Mindbender that gets new spells per day every other level; you would still add all the levels in the Mindbender class. Had the feat said something more like "classes that grant arcane spellcasting" there might be an argument that no PRC would qualify unless it had its own spellcasting list (such as Assassin). But it doesn't say that. It says "classes that allow you to cast arcane spells." Are you saying that Archmage is not a "class that allows you to cast arcane spells?" And if you are only talking about classes that have their own spellcasting list (bard, assassin, sublime chord, etc..) than I see no reason for this restriction either for balance or flavor reasons. I would think it silly that a Wizard 10/Assassin 10 would have a stronger familiar than a Wizard 15/Archmage 5.
Archmagi1976 03-27-06, 12:37 AM	Clr 4 Wiz 5 Mystic Theurge 10 Archamge 5 If I understand this correctly... This is the set up. With prestige classes the class abilities that go with the arcane spell casting state something like this... ...gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, a bonus feat, and so on.) If he had more then one spellcasting class before becoming... With that stated... I feel the Gain Familiar feat was ment for the characters who have access to Arcane spell casting like the warmage, bard, ect. This ability is taking an entire feat (and some would argue that is a huge investment) for a single item. As for the gain improved familiar feat, given the way the set up is stated for gaining new spells per day for Prestige classes... It looks to me as if any Arcane spell casting learned from a prestige feat actually is in it's own select section and should not be used as a basis for any newly found abilities. So simply put... Any Arcane learning from a prestige class does not count towards any required spell requirement unless it is only casting or spells known. This in this view would also qualify for any prestige classes. I am not looking for arguements but I would love to see someone else come up with a different point of view on this information. Archmagi
sparkster4242 03-28-06, 11:21 PM	dale: Archmage and Mystic Theurge dont have Spells as a class feature - they make some other class's spellcasting better, but they have no spellcasting ability themselves. Are you saying that Archmage is not a "class that allows you to cast arcane spells?" yup. it ha no spells list, no spells per day, no spells known, no spellcasting ability score, and most importantly: no Spells: as a class feature. I would think it silly that a Wizard 10/Assassin 10 would have a stronger familiar than a Wizard 15/Archmage 5. *shrug* thats the way the feat is written. personally, i think its silly that familiar progression is tied to class level, and not caster-level - but thats the way it is written.
Father Dale 03-29-06, 02:27 AM	Guess we just have to disagree on this one. I think "classes that allow you to cast arcane spells" is much more broad than "classes that grant arcane spellcasting." If it said the latter, I would agree with you. But it says classes that "allow" you to cast arcane spells. To me that says any class that has "Spells Per Day" and that allows them to be arcane. I just don't get what your saying from the text, and I don't think your interpretation makes as much sense as the broader version. Which of course doesn't change the fact that its a pretty poor feat choice anyways :D
sparkster4242 03-31-06, 11:21 PM	what you do in your games is up to you - but by the RAW, Archmage doesnt allow you to cast spells; it only improves the spellcasting ability some other class provides.