A Question about the Paladin. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question about the Paladin. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Laucien_of_Llanowar
10-21-03, 05:03 PM I've read in the description chapter that Tordek is lawful good, but he is greedy too and may be likly to steal if he can justify it to himself.... Look it up it's in the last page of the chapter somewhere.

So does that mean that I can make my Elven Paladin and go vigilate, disobeying the authorites, if I found a good enough cause?
Baalzamon
10-21-03, 05:07 PM If the authorities are evil (as in lawful evil), then I think the desire for good would override the desire for order.

good comes first, order second.

anarchy is not good, but opposing order that seeks to do evil is ok.

you need to be very carefull about what exactly "disobeying the authorites" entails.

it should never ever be done by a paladin unless there is a clear cut reason.

the holy liberator might be more to your liking if you are into a chaotic good "stick it to the man" type paladin. its in defenders of the faith.
Laucien_of_Llanowar
10-21-03, 05:22 PM no, I'm more the village boy just went out on his own type.

I'm just saying, what if the authorites are rather "incompotent" or if they're covering up a rape crime because it was some fudal lord's son who raped a village girl.

The case of the fudal lord's son v. The common village girl.

There's an open and shut case for ya.

My friend Lianna says I'm such a goody-good.

Maybe I am..... :rolleyes:
OGRE-MJC
10-21-03, 05:36 PM It really depends on both yours and your DM's opinion on what Lawful is.
I have seen it as two extremes with most being in the middle somewhere:

A. Lawful means obeying the strictures of a society no matter what. Lawful good means helping people by doing what ever you can within the law. Lawful Evil means doing whatever you can to help yourself within the law.

B. Lawful means obeying a strict personal Code. whatever that may be. Under this interpretation, Lawful can break any law of the land and still retain his alignment as long as it doesn't violate his personal code of honor. Lawful good wouldn't cheat somebody even if the law of the land has no prohibitions against it. A good example of this is the old Charles Bronson movies. Lawful Evil is more like what we would consider the Mafia, not concerned with what the law of the land is, but scruplious about honoring deals and contracts.

It both you and your DM agree that it is B, then no problem with the vigilante paladin (be careful that you don't slide into neutral thou, that is where the Liberator is).
If it's A, then it would probably be a no-no.
Dunbar
10-21-03, 05:57 PM Remember that while a paladin must respect legitimate authority, he only loses his paladinhood if he intentionally commits an evil act. He does not lose his paladinhood just because he intentionally broke the law or disobeyed a king.

Upholding what is good and protecting the innocent are the paladin's most important concerns.
ManTimeForgot
10-21-03, 06:14 PM Dunbar illustrates a very necessary point.

The paladin must respect legitimate authority, and legitimate authority only. A lawful evil government in the commision of evil acts has forgone its claim to legitimate authority. This is why a paladin in a land where murder is legal, that the paladin need not obey the strictures of the land.

A paladin cannot go vigilante because that by definition means going outside legitimate authority. The paladin can disobey a law if the law proves unjust or immoral, but the paladin must then oppose the law on those very grounds.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Blackrock_Clan
10-22-03, 01:33 AM Since your paladin is lawful good and he is held to higher standards then everybody else and you said he is greedy then this can create a good back story about your char. For example lets say you have a paladin of St. Cuthbert the god or retrobution the party is attacked by some bandits and one of them tries to run off and you are on your mount you catch up with him and slay him with ease then you see a belt pouch or money pouch on him what do you do? 1. Take the money for yourself and don't tell the others about it 2. Take the money but keep more for yourself 3.Take the money and split it up between the party and be sure to set some aside to pay your tides that is just one way to play your paladin
Eldren
10-22-03, 01:46 AM Paladins have a lot more leeway in their actions than many players and Dungeon Masters imagine or give them credit for. On top of this, unless it's a blatantly evil action (or blatantly chaotic), individual actions, if they aren't done repetitiously, aren't usually enough to jeopardize your Paladinhood.

Lawful Good has a lot of different approaches that are still in agreement with the general tenets of the alignment. Paladins can benefit from this as much as any other Lawful Good non-Paladin, but they have a couple of things to watch out for.

First and foremost, not all Paladins are knights, at least not now in 3rd Edition. They had a clearly-delineated Paladin Code in 1st Edition and 2nd Edition, but they've foregone that in 3rd Edition, with good reason: There are a wide variety of religious and other types of organizations who would have Paladins. For instance, Sune, the Power of Love and Beauty in the Forgotten Realms, is Chaotic Good. Yet she has Paladins. Likewise, Helm, who is strictly Lawful Neutral (don't believe me? Look what he did to Mystra in the Godswar Trilogy!), also has Paladins. Obviously, the Paladins of Helm differ rather significantly in their ideology and approach from the Paladins of Sune. Yet when the chips are down, both groups are still Paladins, and they'll support/aid one another.

Paladins, in general, shouldn't go about stealing (because it breaks the law), they shouldn't go about wantonly killing (because that is, quite simply, murder; Paladins can kill, but in general they shouldn't be able to murder), and they can't go about raping women (because, again, it's just kinda wrong; it doesn't mean a Paladin has to be celibate, or even chaste, it just means they can't go committing sex crimes). These are all things that fall under the axis of the Good portion of their alignment.

Likewise, they can't go around using their likely elevated social status to oppress the serfs or citizens. They can't take the law into their own hands, even in a country or town where the law itself is blatantly corrupt. They have to be covert in such instances, so they aren't actually breaking the law, but are working surreptitiously to change it so that Law aligns with Good. These are all actions that fall under the Lawful component of their alignment.

Paladins can be enraged. They can go berserk in battle (although, obviously, they're unable to rage, at least unless they have a level or two of Barbarian) against evil. They can commit mass slaughter against evil forces that stand in opposition to them. They can get angry, they can be violent, they can become drunk, they can have wanton sex (although it needs to, apparently, be consensual on some level), etc. Paladins are Lawful Good, but they're still mortal, and they can still make mistakes. Occasional mistakes, or even occasional deviations from their alignment, so long as such deviations aren't blatant and extreme, should be forgivable, and shouldn't result in the loss of their favored status.

Willfully committed chaotic actions cause the revocation of their Paladin class until such time as they atone for the action(s), including the use of the Cleric spell Atonement. Likewise, willfully committed evil actions result in the irrevocable loss of their Paladin status. They're going to have to seek some other class to start gaining power in. Blackguard becomes rather attractive at that point for many ex-Paladins... :devil:

Paladins have a wide range of things they can do, and I feel bad for players of Paladins who have tight-fisted Dungeon Masters who want to enforce 1st Edition-style ethoi on them. The freedom of the class, which is greater than some think, is what makes it so vastly interesting to have different Paladins running about the land.
ManTimeForgot
10-22-03, 02:47 AM Actually a paladin can never rage and expect to have class abilities one way or the other.

The paladin has exactly as much leeway as I assume the paladin to have. The paladin must be lawful good. In order to rage one must be chaotic. No leeway.

The paladin must be a paragon of good, which as you say means any willful evil acts is irrevocable loss of paladin status. What a paragon of good entails is open to discussion, which is why there are so many paladin CoC threads. But this means the paladin must act according to a higher standard of ethical conduct.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Sir Ferdinand
10-22-03, 06:15 AM By Laucien_of_Llanowar:

So does that mean that I can make my Elven Paladin and go vigilate, disobeying the authorites, if I found a good enough cause?

The most important thing the Paladin must do is to go with the Paladin's Code (found in PHB).

Now the Code says: "Additionally a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)..."

By Baalzamon:
If the authorities are evil (as in lawful evil), then I think the desire for good would override the desire for order.
Now this is impossible situation for Paladins, because as the PHB says: "...a paladin never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." So the Paladin would never do what that evil authority says. A Paladin simply would not work with such group.

I'm just saying, what if the authorites are rather "incompotent" or if they're covering up a rape crime because it was some fudal lord's son who raped a village girl.

The case of the fudal lord's son v. The common village girl.

Here again, if the Paladin knows what the authority is doing, and in this case it is against the Paladin's moral code, the Paladin wouldn't work with the authority and would try to help the girl by all legal means.

So all in all, the Paladin may never willingly do an evil act without losing his powers, nor would act against her moral code. It's all found in PHB, Paladin section. Just remember that Lawful Good for Paladins isn't just Lawful Good. Paladin's Code overrides the Lawful Goodness, it's just a red line for Paladins.
Kolo
10-22-03, 08:37 AM The second most important part of a paladin after the Paladin's Code is probably how the paladin is focused; is he primarily Lawful, or primarily Good?

a Lawful paladin would uphold the decisions of the law no matter how unjust because to him, law is paramount. A paladin of good would argue any unjust case. In both cases, they are within their rights as paladins.

I've never played a purely Lawful paladin, but they can be very good as antagonists in a campaign; a PC is framed and judged, and a Lawful paladin is sent to bring him/her in... PC's can agonize for DAYS over how to deal with the guy...:D
Endur_Stonehelm
10-22-03, 04:53 PM The thing to remember is that nobody is perfect, even though a Paladin does strive for perfection.

With the example of Tordek. Yes, Tordek is Lawful Good. However, there are some sins he is more susceptible than others.

He is unlikely to lie or cheat or murder. But he does occassionally fall victim to Greed or Pride.

Dwarves as a race have problems with Greed and Pride.

Other races may fall victim to other sins.
Daybreaker
10-22-03, 05:02 PM Yeah, Paladins can be greedy.

They just can't be real greedy. :D
DwarvenBrew
10-22-03, 05:34 PM In one of the WotC products it specifically states that the "Good" overides the "Lawful". They specifically use the example of a corrupt and evil government as an example of when a Paladin not only can, but is expected to defy the "authorities".

I'll try to find it when I have some time at home with my books.
Kolo
10-22-03, 05:38 PM Originally posted by DwarvenBrew
In one of the WotC products it specifically states that the "Good" overides the "Lawful". They specifically use the example of a corrupt and evil government as an example of when a Paladin not only can, but is expected to defy the "authorities".

I'll try to find it when I have some time at home with my books.

Ugh. If correct, this little fact just ruined half the fun I see in the class. Meh.:sad:
DwarvenBrew
10-22-03, 05:45 PM Originally posted by Kolo
Ugh. If correct, this little fact just ruined half the fun I see in the class. Meh.:sad:

Well IIRC this was just a blanket statement speaking to the Paladin class generically. However, if you're playing in a setting like FR, where some of the Paladin deites stress duty/loyalty/obligation over Good in their portfolios, then you could definitely make a case for Lawful overides Good in these instances.
ManTimeForgot
10-22-03, 09:14 PM Certainly. For a paladin of Helm law overrides good, but helm very much still expects paladins to be good because being good is part of their oath; and Helm sppborts no oath breakers.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Piraatje
10-23-03, 05:42 AM Paladin code is like an 'advanced' LG ... what a LG can do, a paladin can not always do.

A paladin of helm has to follow the same code any paladin has to. The fact that he'll protect easier then punish is irrelevant, he still has to punish those who harm of threaten innocents.
Kage Wellby
10-23-03, 12:29 PM Heh, that was the last time I'll play a Paladin.

We stroll into a town which has slavery, and they treat their slaves horribly. Now, the law is that slavery is legal, but slavery is an evil thing. So in order to uphold good, I had to break law, and in order to uphold the law, I had to free evil, so I was immediately stripped.

While I had an awesome time eventually dying to the blackguard despot, I shall never again play a paladin in that particular person's game.
ehrin
10-23-03, 12:46 PM my two cents on Kage's dilema

First, the world must have an ultimate arbiter of good and law. In a paladin's case, that is his/her God.

then, knowing what the deity believes is lawful and good, paladin walks into a town that has slaves and allows slavery.

Deity says slavery is bad. Paladin must believe slavery is bad, and do something to correct it. At first, I think the Paladin should work within the law to correct the situation. He should petition the local law. He could try to buy a few, or even educate them or arm them with knowledge or weapons to attain liberty. He can try to attack the system from within (using laws to punish those slave owners who don't follow the (Bad) laws). He may challenge some owners to a duel for freedom.

But here, the law is bad too. In that case, the paladin can work outside the LOCAL law but within the LAW of the Deity to correct the wrong of slavery. Perhaps that means taking the slaves away, or bringing in other authorities. Maybe it means leading an army of right into the land, to change the regime. maybe it even means inspiring an uprising among the slaves.

Most likely, it will NOT mean slaughtering the slave owners in their sleep, burning down the tavern where they meet after locking them inside, etc.. It does not mean simply attacking the owners and freeing the slaves.
Dunbar
10-23-03, 02:29 PM Originally posted by ehrin
my two cents on Kage's dilema

First, the world must have an ultimate arbiter of good and law. In a paladin's case, that is his/her God.

Not true. First off, the PHB paladin doesn't have to have a god. He can elect to worship one ih he so desires, but it is not part of the class.

Secondly, paladins are held first and formost to the edicts of lawful good (with the stress on good). If a paladin is following a god, but that god asks for him to perform an evil act (or if his god starts sliding towards neutral or evil), the paladin cannot follow along if he wishes to remain a paladin.

As another note, even the gods do not decide what is good and what is evil. Otherwise evil gods might declare the genocide of all elves as a good act. Good and evil are beyond even the gods; they are fundamental forces of the DnD universe. As are the forces of law and chaos.

The paladin upholds good and law to the best of his abilities. Good gods can perform evil acts from time to time, much as any character that is of good alignment can occasionally stray for the beaten path. Paladins are held to a higher standard, a standard beyond any god's ability to control.
Jag Arin
10-23-03, 02:51 PM Originally posted by Dunbar

The paladin upholds good and law to the best of his abilities. Good gods can perform evil acts from time to time, much as any character that is of good alignment can occasionally stray for the beaten path. Paladins are held to a higher standard, a standard beyond any god's ability to control.

"To the best of his ability" as a mortal=yes, I agree
"Paladins are held to a higher standard"=yes and no

Umm...there is no universal standard. Like many things in D&D, it is ultimately up to the DM. The standard he is held to is what defines his code. His code and standard are in turn based on law and good.

A Paladin order might allow drinking (not in excess), marriage (and thus sex), rightous anger, execution of criminals found guilty under the law, and other things not traditionally thought of as Paladiny.

Consider a Paladin chasing a fugitive from a capital crime into a neighboring land where there is no extradition treaty and no death penalty. The Paladin (in my world) is fully justified in going in and dragging the criminal back to face justice or carrying out the execution on the spot if the former is not possible. He may break the local law, but is upholding his code.
Powerman5000
10-23-03, 06:06 PM nifty little item in the DMG "phlyactery (sp) or Fatihfulness"
basiclly it tells you wether an action would **** off you're god//go against alignment all for only 1000gp
Sir Ferdinand
10-24-03, 10:41 AM Now, the law is that slavery is legal, but slavery is an evil thing. So in order to uphold good, I had to break law, and in order to uphold the law, I had to free evil, so I was immediately stripped.

Well you got it all wrong. Even if the law was evil, it doesn't mean that you broke lawfulness in terms of what Paladins view it. Again, you must take a look at the Paladin's Code, so you only go with good laws, not evil laws. So as a Paladin, you didn't brake the law and so you didn't do anything wrong.

But what do you mean by "I had to free evil"? What evil? Do you mean that the slaves were evil? If that's the case, then you wouldn't have had to free them. You won't help evil beings.
detectevil
10-24-03, 11:47 AM To end this, and all others "What's a paladin to do" threads...

A paladin is not a blind slave of the paladin's code. In most game-worlds, the code has never even been worte down. It serves as a guide line.

A paladin must always do the right thing. Instead of looking for what does the paladin code says about something, ask yourself "What is the right thing to do?". That's what the paladin must do.

Just remember that, as a paladin, you must take everyone in consideration. Even the villain.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laucien_of_Llanowar 10-21-03, 05:03 PM	I've read in the description chapter that Tordek is lawful good, but he is greedy too and may be likly to steal if he can justify it to himself.... Look it up it's in the last page of the chapter somewhere. So does that mean that I can make my Elven Paladin and go vigilate, disobeying the authorites, if I found a good enough cause?
Baalzamon 10-21-03, 05:07 PM	If the authorities are evil (as in lawful evil), then I think the desire for good would override the desire for order. good comes first, order second. anarchy is not good, but opposing order that seeks to do evil is ok. you need to be very carefull about what exactly "disobeying the authorites" entails. it should never ever be done by a paladin unless there is a clear cut reason. the holy liberator might be more to your liking if you are into a chaotic good "stick it to the man" type paladin. its in defenders of the faith.
Laucien_of_Llanowar 10-21-03, 05:22 PM	no, I'm more the village boy just went out on his own type. I'm just saying, what if the authorites are rather "incompotent" or if they're covering up a rape crime because it was some fudal lord's son who raped a village girl. The case of the fudal lord's son v. The common village girl. There's an open and shut case for ya. My friend Lianna says I'm such a goody-good. Maybe I am..... :rolleyes:
OGRE-MJC 10-21-03, 05:36 PM	It really depends on both yours and your DM's opinion on what Lawful is. I have seen it as two extremes with most being in the middle somewhere: A. Lawful means obeying the strictures of a society no matter what. Lawful good means helping people by doing what ever you can within the law. Lawful Evil means doing whatever you can to help yourself within the law. B. Lawful means obeying a strict personal Code. whatever that may be. Under this interpretation, Lawful can break any law of the land and still retain his alignment as long as it doesn't violate his personal code of honor. Lawful good wouldn't cheat somebody even if the law of the land has no prohibitions against it. A good example of this is the old Charles Bronson movies. Lawful Evil is more like what we would consider the Mafia, not concerned with what the law of the land is, but scruplious about honoring deals and contracts. It both you and your DM agree that it is B, then no problem with the vigilante paladin (be careful that you don't slide into neutral thou, that is where the Liberator is). If it's A, then it would probably be a no-no.
Dunbar 10-21-03, 05:57 PM	Remember that while a paladin must respect legitimate authority, he only loses his paladinhood if he intentionally commits an evil act. He does not lose his paladinhood just because he intentionally broke the law or disobeyed a king. Upholding what is good and protecting the innocent are the paladin's most important concerns.
ManTimeForgot 10-21-03, 06:14 PM	Dunbar illustrates a very necessary point. The paladin must respect legitimate authority, and legitimate authority only. A lawful evil government in the commision of evil acts has forgone its claim to legitimate authority. This is why a paladin in a land where murder is legal, that the paladin need not obey the strictures of the land. A paladin cannot go vigilante because that by definition means going outside legitimate authority. The paladin can disobey a law if the law proves unjust or immoral, but the paladin must then oppose the law on those very grounds. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Blackrock_Clan 10-22-03, 01:33 AM	Since your paladin is lawful good and he is held to higher standards then everybody else and you said he is greedy then this can create a good back story about your char. For example lets say you have a paladin of St. Cuthbert the god or retrobution the party is attacked by some bandits and one of them tries to run off and you are on your mount you catch up with him and slay him with ease then you see a belt pouch or money pouch on him what do you do? 1. Take the money for yourself and don't tell the others about it 2. Take the money but keep more for yourself 3.Take the money and split it up between the party and be sure to set some aside to pay your tides that is just one way to play your paladin
Eldren 10-22-03, 01:46 AM	Paladins have a lot more leeway in their actions than many players and Dungeon Masters imagine or give them credit for. On top of this, unless it's a blatantly evil action (or blatantly chaotic), individual actions, if they aren't done repetitiously, aren't usually enough to jeopardize your Paladinhood. Lawful Good has a lot of different approaches that are still in agreement with the general tenets of the alignment. Paladins can benefit from this as much as any other Lawful Good non-Paladin, but they have a couple of things to watch out for. First and foremost, not all Paladins are knights, at least not now in 3rd Edition. They had a clearly-delineated Paladin Code in 1st Edition and 2nd Edition, but they've foregone that in 3rd Edition, with good reason: There are a wide variety of religious and other types of organizations who would have Paladins. For instance, Sune, the Power of Love and Beauty in the Forgotten Realms, is Chaotic Good. Yet she has Paladins. Likewise, Helm, who is strictly Lawful Neutral (don't believe me? Look what he did to Mystra in the Godswar Trilogy!), also has Paladins. Obviously, the Paladins of Helm differ rather significantly in their ideology and approach from the Paladins of Sune. Yet when the chips are down, both groups are still Paladins, and they'll support/aid one another. Paladins, in general, shouldn't go about stealing (because it breaks the law), they shouldn't go about wantonly killing (because that is, quite simply, murder; Paladins can kill, but in general they shouldn't be able to murder), and they can't go about raping women (because, again, it's just kinda wrong; it doesn't mean a Paladin has to be celibate, or even chaste, it just means they can't go committing sex crimes). These are all things that fall under the axis of the Good portion of their alignment. Likewise, they can't go around using their likely elevated social status to oppress the serfs or citizens. They can't take the law into their own hands, even in a country or town where the law itself is blatantly corrupt. They have to be covert in such instances, so they aren't actually breaking the law, but are working surreptitiously to change it so that Law aligns with Good. These are all actions that fall under the Lawful component of their alignment. Paladins can be enraged. They can go berserk in battle (although, obviously, they're unable to rage, at least unless they have a level or two of Barbarian) against evil. They can commit mass slaughter against evil forces that stand in opposition to them. They can get angry, they can be violent, they can become drunk, they can have wanton sex (although it needs to, apparently, be consensual on some level), etc. Paladins are Lawful Good, but they're still mortal, and they can still make mistakes. Occasional mistakes, or even occasional deviations from their alignment, so long as such deviations aren't blatant and extreme, should be forgivable, and shouldn't result in the loss of their favored status. Willfully committed chaotic actions cause the revocation of their Paladin class until such time as they atone for the action(s), including the use of the Cleric spell Atonement. Likewise, willfully committed evil actions result in the irrevocable loss of their Paladin status. They're going to have to seek some other class to start gaining power in. Blackguard becomes rather attractive at that point for many ex-Paladins... :devil: Paladins have a wide range of things they can do, and I feel bad for players of Paladins who have tight-fisted Dungeon Masters who want to enforce 1st Edition-style ethoi on them. The freedom of the class, which is greater than some think, is what makes it so vastly interesting to have different Paladins running about the land.
ManTimeForgot 10-22-03, 02:47 AM	Actually a paladin can never rage and expect to have class abilities one way or the other. The paladin has exactly as much leeway as I assume the paladin to have. The paladin must be lawful good. In order to rage one must be chaotic. No leeway. The paladin must be a paragon of good, which as you say means any willful evil acts is irrevocable loss of paladin status. What a paragon of good entails is open to discussion, which is why there are so many paladin CoC threads. But this means the paladin must act according to a higher standard of ethical conduct. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Sir Ferdinand 10-22-03, 06:15 AM	By Laucien_of_Llanowar: So does that mean that I can make my Elven Paladin and go vigilate, disobeying the authorites, if I found a good enough cause? The most important thing the Paladin must do is to go with the Paladin's Code (found in PHB). Now the Code says: "Additionally a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)..." By Baalzamon: If the authorities are evil (as in lawful evil), then I think the desire for good would override the desire for order. Now this is impossible situation for Paladins, because as the PHB says: "...a paladin never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." So the Paladin would never do what that evil authority says. A Paladin simply would not work with such group. I'm just saying, what if the authorites are rather "incompotent" or if they're covering up a rape crime because it was some fudal lord's son who raped a village girl. The case of the fudal lord's son v. The common village girl. Here again, if the Paladin knows what the authority is doing, and in this case it is against the Paladin's moral code, the Paladin wouldn't work with the authority and would try to help the girl by all legal means. So all in all, the Paladin may never willingly do an evil act without losing his powers, nor would act against her moral code. It's all found in PHB, Paladin section. Just remember that Lawful Good for Paladins isn't just Lawful Good. Paladin's Code overrides the Lawful Goodness, it's just a red line for Paladins.
Kolo 10-22-03, 08:37 AM	The second most important part of a paladin after the Paladin's Code is probably how the paladin is focused; is he primarily Lawful, or primarily Good? a Lawful paladin would uphold the decisions of the law no matter how unjust because to him, law is paramount. A paladin of good would argue any unjust case. In both cases, they are within their rights as paladins. I've never played a purely Lawful paladin, but they can be very good as antagonists in a campaign; a PC is framed and judged, and a Lawful paladin is sent to bring him/her in... PC's can agonize for DAYS over how to deal with the guy...:D
Endur_Stonehelm 10-22-03, 04:53 PM	The thing to remember is that nobody is perfect, even though a Paladin does strive for perfection. With the example of Tordek. Yes, Tordek is Lawful Good. However, there are some sins he is more susceptible than others. He is unlikely to lie or cheat or murder. But he does occassionally fall victim to Greed or Pride. Dwarves as a race have problems with Greed and Pride. Other races may fall victim to other sins.
Daybreaker 10-22-03, 05:02 PM	Yeah, Paladins can be greedy. They just can't be real greedy. :D
DwarvenBrew 10-22-03, 05:34 PM	In one of the WotC products it specifically states that the "Good" overides the "Lawful". They specifically use the example of a corrupt and evil government as an example of when a Paladin not only can, but is expected to defy the "authorities". I'll try to find it when I have some time at home with my books.
Kolo 10-22-03, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by DwarvenBrew In one of the WotC products it specifically states that the "Good" overides the "Lawful". They specifically use the example of a corrupt and evil government as an example of when a Paladin not only can, but is expected to defy the "authorities". I'll try to find it when I have some time at home with my books. Ugh. If correct, this little fact just ruined half the fun I see in the class. Meh.:sad:
DwarvenBrew 10-22-03, 05:45 PM	Originally posted by Kolo Ugh. If correct, this little fact just ruined half the fun I see in the class. Meh.:sad: Well IIRC this was just a blanket statement speaking to the Paladin class generically. However, if you're playing in a setting like FR, where some of the Paladin deites stress duty/loyalty/obligation over Good in their portfolios, then you could definitely make a case for Lawful overides Good in these instances.
ManTimeForgot 10-22-03, 09:14 PM	Certainly. For a paladin of Helm law overrides good, but helm very much still expects paladins to be good because being good is part of their oath; and Helm sppborts no oath breakers. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Piraatje 10-23-03, 05:42 AM	Paladin code is like an 'advanced' LG ... what a LG can do, a paladin can not always do. A paladin of helm has to follow the same code any paladin has to. The fact that he'll protect easier then punish is irrelevant, he still has to punish those who harm of threaten innocents.
Kage Wellby 10-23-03, 12:29 PM	Heh, that was the last time I'll play a Paladin. We stroll into a town which has slavery, and they treat their slaves horribly. Now, the law is that slavery is legal, but slavery is an evil thing. So in order to uphold good, I had to break law, and in order to uphold the law, I had to free evil, so I was immediately stripped. While I had an awesome time eventually dying to the blackguard despot, I shall never again play a paladin in that particular person's game.
ehrin 10-23-03, 12:46 PM	my two cents on Kage's dilema First, the world must have an ultimate arbiter of good and law. In a paladin's case, that is his/her God. then, knowing what the deity believes is lawful and good, paladin walks into a town that has slaves and allows slavery. Deity says slavery is bad. Paladin must believe slavery is bad, and do something to correct it. At first, I think the Paladin should work within the law to correct the situation. He should petition the local law. He could try to buy a few, or even educate them or arm them with knowledge or weapons to attain liberty. He can try to attack the system from within (using laws to punish those slave owners who don't follow the (Bad) laws). He may challenge some owners to a duel for freedom. But here, the law is bad too. In that case, the paladin can work outside the LOCAL law but within the LAW of the Deity to correct the wrong of slavery. Perhaps that means taking the slaves away, or bringing in other authorities. Maybe it means leading an army of right into the land, to change the regime. maybe it even means inspiring an uprising among the slaves. Most likely, it will NOT mean slaughtering the slave owners in their sleep, burning down the tavern where they meet after locking them inside, etc.. It does not mean simply attacking the owners and freeing the slaves.
Dunbar 10-23-03, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by ehrin my two cents on Kage's dilema First, the world must have an ultimate arbiter of good and law. In a paladin's case, that is his/her God. Not true. First off, the PHB paladin doesn't have to have a god. He can elect to worship one ih he so desires, but it is not part of the class. Secondly, paladins are held first and formost to the edicts of lawful good (with the stress on good). If a paladin is following a god, but that god asks for him to perform an evil act (or if his god starts sliding towards neutral or evil), the paladin cannot follow along if he wishes to remain a paladin. As another note, even the gods do not decide what is good and what is evil. Otherwise evil gods might declare the genocide of all elves as a good act. Good and evil are beyond even the gods; they are fundamental forces of the DnD universe. As are the forces of law and chaos. The paladin upholds good and law to the best of his abilities. Good gods can perform evil acts from time to time, much as any character that is of good alignment can occasionally stray for the beaten path. Paladins are held to a higher standard, a standard beyond any god's ability to control.
Jag Arin 10-23-03, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by Dunbar The paladin upholds good and law to the best of his abilities. Good gods can perform evil acts from time to time, much as any character that is of good alignment can occasionally stray for the beaten path. Paladins are held to a higher standard, a standard beyond any god's ability to control. "To the best of his ability" as a mortal=yes, I agree "Paladins are held to a higher standard"=yes and no Umm...there is no universal standard. Like many things in D&D, it is ultimately up to the DM. The standard he is held to is what defines his code. His code and standard are in turn based on law and good. A Paladin order might allow drinking (not in excess), marriage (and thus sex), rightous anger, execution of criminals found guilty under the law, and other things not traditionally thought of as Paladiny. Consider a Paladin chasing a fugitive from a capital crime into a neighboring land where there is no extradition treaty and no death penalty. The Paladin (in my world) is fully justified in going in and dragging the criminal back to face justice or carrying out the execution on the spot if the former is not possible. He may break the local law, but is upholding his code.
Powerman5000 10-23-03, 06:06 PM	nifty little item in the DMG "phlyactery (sp) or Fatihfulness" basiclly it tells you wether an action would **** off you're god//go against alignment all for only 1000gp
Sir Ferdinand 10-24-03, 10:41 AM	Now, the law is that slavery is legal, but slavery is an evil thing. So in order to uphold good, I had to break law, and in order to uphold the law, I had to free evil, so I was immediately stripped. Well you got it all wrong. Even if the law was evil, it doesn't mean that you broke lawfulness in terms of what Paladins view it. Again, you must take a look at the Paladin's Code, so you only go with good laws, not evil laws. So as a Paladin, you didn't brake the law and so you didn't do anything wrong. But what do you mean by "I had to free evil"? What evil? Do you mean that the slaves were evil? If that's the case, then you wouldn't have had to free them. You won't help evil beings.
detectevil 10-24-03, 11:47 AM	To end this, and all others "What's a paladin to do" threads... A paladin is not a blind slave of the paladin's code. In most game-worlds, the code has never even been worte down. It serves as a guide line. A paladin must always do the right thing. Instead of looking for what does the paladin code says about something, ask yourself "What is the right thing to do?". That's what the paladin must do. Just remember that, as a paladin, you must take everyone in consideration. Even the villain.