Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rapunzel72 11-17-07, 05:54 PM	As one can see in the errata, the Warlocks art of invocations was not clear even to the maker of the game. Whats an invocation, wich spelllevel or casterlevel has the invocation and so on. I think I understand this now, but still one things remains: A Warlock has to be able to cast several invocations which stack (like flying and be invisible at the same time). But what about Wall of perilous flame? As I understand it, a Warlock could cast this Wall of supernatural fire as often as he wishes. The Wall maintains itself for as long as the caster level is. My Warlock is Caster Level 15, so without concentration I could cast FIFTEEN of this walls before the first one goes away. This means, that all enemys without ranged weapons, spells or flying and/or resistance to fire are unable to approach my Warlock without getting burned very heavy. Consider now that my warlock is flying and at Level 16 uses greater invisibility. He creates such havoc on the ground with walls of fire and his eldritch blast without being seen and reachable, no other class can do that since even the best mage is limited how often he can cast. Further there is little sense in trying to dispel some effects a Warlock uses since he can cast them again and again. The Warlock would be the only spellcaster class used in battles, since he can cast endless spells and can hide itself endless times. And he can disspell other spellcasters "see invisiblity" quite easy. So I THINK it should be like in NWN2, where you can only use one harmful invocations of the same type at a time. Its not possible to cast a second Wall ofp perilious flame since the first one will go out instantly. But I just want to understand if i made a mistake trying to understand this or if its really this way: the Warlock can cast any invocation as often as he likes without canceling the same invocation he has cast before?
dman11235 11-17-07, 06:21 PM	Yes he can. It's not as bad as you think. By that level wizards are doing massively insane things, and being immune to most things (lotsa low level spells), flying as well, being invisible as well, true seeing at a higher caster level than you can imagine, some way to prevent people from dispelling him, etc.
gotbrain 11-18-07, 02:13 PM	Really flying around invisible, creating walls of fire seems pretty hack-ish compared to a true mage that can at that level summon outsiders, cast horrid wilting, PoA, power words spells, create undead, etc. I wouldn't worry about that warlock, but your understanding of how invocations work is correct.
rapunzel72 11-18-07, 04:51 PM	Really flying around invisible, creating walls of fire seems pretty hack-ish compared to a true mage that can at that level summon outsiders, cast horrid wilting, PoA, power words spells, create undead, etc. I wouldn't worry about that warlock, but your understanding of how invocations work is correct. Sure, if you look at one fight a warlock can not compare. In a few rounds or Wizard and Sorceress had removed 1500 HPs from our enemies (several area spells). At the second fight in row his spell were noticed but sure not more. But at the third fight in the middle of the night the Wizard had no more spells. And the Warlock did hold of several giants at ease. Alone. We had that situation yesterday. Two hard fights with hill giants, arcane giants, trolls and even an evil outsider. Both the Wizard and the Sorcereress had nothing left. My Warlock did not get a scratch at the last fight, our fighters got some bruises before the third wall of fire was done...than the giants got burned enough. Sure...they could run through the walls. But we play it with a bit of common sense and after getting three times in a row 22 points of damage from some firewall and after retreating standing in the next wall, most monsters will not run through them. And with spell resistance 27 (22 from a cloak, +5 from Daazixs Vest of Complete Arcane) no spell did harm Mr. Warlock. I really love my Warlock! Its fun, I use many wands (only two can be used for attacks), many skills (high intelligence), many exotic items (can make them myself). He really adds in our fights. And the last fight was great when one character really stood in for all the others protecting them. But he never gets weak. Outpowered. Out of spells. Every disspell he counters with a blink of his eyes (and uses the invocations again). And this gave our players the feeling, that they don't matter any more since the Warlock could do it alone. Sure its not true but most players do not play with statistics saying which class does which amount of damage each round (I know there are some...). Good roleplaying is in my opinion about emotions. But thanks for the answer...I will play him like the rules want me to but I will not use any feats, invocations or items from Complete Mage since I think THIS will really take him over the edge...
vorpo 11-18-07, 05:06 PM	What's PoA? Power of Attorney? :rolleyes:
blade265 11-18-07, 06:43 PM	the Warlock can cast any invocation as often as he likes without canceling the same invocation he has cast before? There is 1 that you have to cancel and that is Charm. Not sure about any of the other books but that's the only 1 in Complete Arcane.
InkBlot 11-18-07, 07:04 PM	What's PoA? Power of Attorney? :rolleyes: PoA stands for polymorph any object, although I prefer to pronounce it "powah!"
dman11235 11-18-07, 07:05 PM	And the resistance to energy ones, and some others in the CArcane. It will specifically say so at the end of the description.
vorpo 11-18-07, 07:12 PM	PoA stands for polymorph any object, although I prefer to pronounce it "powah!" Why is it PoA instead of PAO... hmm...
InkBlot 11-18-07, 07:24 PM	Sorry. Brainfart. I guess either gotbrain had a typo or he's references some other win-button I haven't heard of.
blade265 11-18-07, 11:11 PM	the Warlock can cast any invocation as often as he likes without canceling the same invocation he has cast before? No, there are some that need to be canceled or self-cancel when the same invocation is cast. There's 1 Complete Arcane and 3 in Complete Mage, so I'd say that there are others as well. Complete Arcane: Charm. Complete Mage: Caster's lament, Caustic Mire and Nightmares Made Real.
runestar 11-18-07, 11:56 PM	But I just want to understand if i made a mistake trying to understand this or if its really this way: the Warlock can cast any invocation as often as he likes without canceling the same invocation he has cast before? That is correct. For example, a warlock could stack 100 castings of fell flight at the start of each day (a feat requiring only 5 minutes). While the effects do not stack, it will make dispelling it much harder, since a caster now has 100 castings of fell flight to punch through, rather than just 1.
Wih 11-19-07, 02:00 AM	...and then one Reaving Dispel later, it's a no-save you die.
runestar 11-19-07, 02:25 AM	Hey, I only said that you could, not that you should.;)
aotrscommander 11-19-07, 09:32 AM	...and then one Reaving Dispel later, it's a no-save you die. Slashing Dispel. Reaving Dispel only lets you steal the effect...
vorpo 11-19-07, 09:40 AM	Slashing Dispel. Reaving Dispel only lets you steal the effect... what books are these 2 spells from?
aotrscommander 11-19-07, 09:59 AM	what books are these 2 spells from? PHB2 and Spell Compendium respectively.
Shadowhowler 11-19-07, 11:06 AM	Yeah... a Warlock is the energizer bunny, it's true. All day long on the battlefield without ever lossing any of it's punch. However, as others have said... a Wiz or Sor can lay out the oposition with ONE punch ath an equal level to the Warlock, and then move on. The Warlock is about endurance and longevity. So... yeah, a Warlock would be EXCELENT magical suppoort to a large scale battle against low level minons. In the smaller scale adventurer style battles against less numerous but more personaly powerful foes, however, the Warlock not only does NOT make the Wiz and Sor useless, but has a LOT of trouble even keeping up. Especialy if the Wiz or Sor are not worries about more encounters later and are allowed to go Nova. I enjoy the Warlock also... but I disagree with both sides that say it is either over or under powered. It's just differant. How the Warlock performs will depend heavly upon the sort of game the DM runs at any given time.
gotbrain 11-19-07, 01:07 PM	Sure, if you look at one fight a warlock can not compare. In a few rounds or Wizard and Sorceress had removed 1500 HPs from our enemies (several area spells). At the second fight in row his spell were noticed but sure not more. But at the third fight in the middle of the night the Wizard had no more spells. And the Warlock did hold of several giants at ease. Alone. We had that situation yesterday. Two hard fights with hill giants, arcane giants, trolls and even an evil outsider. Both the Wizard and the Sorcereress had nothing left. My Warlock did not get a scratch at the last fight, our fighters got some bruises before the third wall of fire was done...than the giants got burned enough. Sure...they could run through the walls. But we play it with a bit of common sense and after getting three times in a row 22 points of damage from some firewall and after retreating standing in the next wall, most monsters will not run through them. And with spell resistance 27 (22 from a cloak, +5 from Daazixs Vest of Complete Arcane) no spell did harm Mr. Warlock. I really love my Warlock! Its fun, I use many wands (only two can be used for attacks), many skills (high intelligence), many exotic items (can make them myself). He really adds in our fights. And the last fight was great when one character really stood in for all the others protecting them. But he never gets weak. Outpowered. Out of spells. Every disspell he counters with a blink of his eyes (and uses the invocations again). And this gave our players the feeling, that they don't matter any more since the Warlock could do it alone. Sure its not true but most players do not play with statistics saying which class does which amount of damage each round (I know there are some...). Good roleplaying is in my opinion about emotions. But thanks for the answer...I will play him like the rules want me to but I will not use any feats, invocations or items from Complete Mage since I think THIS will really take him over the edge... Sounds like your wiz/sorc's are using too much up front, thus dealing a lot of damage early in the day and nothing at the end. This is a resource management problem, not a balance problem. Otherwise the warlock should be just behind the wizard in power and damage all day (for a standard encounter campaign).
gotbrain 11-19-07, 01:10 PM	Sorry. Brainfart. I guess either gotbrain had a typo or he's references some other win-button I haven't heard of. What, you've never heard of polymorph other's a$$? it's a favorite at wiz-o's parties... yea it was my typo, should be PaO.
Rulebook 11-19-07, 01:54 PM	i played a Warlock in the Worlds Largest Dungeon (we went in lvl 1, and didnt leave till we found the exit or died) in a situation like that particular adventure, the value of the warlock's abilities longevity are UNFATHOMABLE. looong after the arcane casters run out of steam (and are pretty much doomed), and the clerics start running low... heck even when the front line warrior types start to get sluggish, that stupid Warlock is still blasting away. mind you, i think that was the only time ive ever seen a warlock do anything meaningful, and be actually preferable to a proper caster in ANY situation... but it was a beautiful thing to behold.
maskimus 11-19-07, 03:04 PM	Slashing Dispel. Reaving Dispel only lets you steal the effect... The other spell you have to worry about is Reciprical Gyre.(CAr & SpComp.)
aotrscommander 11-19-07, 06:16 PM	The other spell you have to worry about is Reciprical Gyre.(CAr & SpComp.) That's the one. I knew there was another similar spell, but I couldn't place it. I think Gyre was what Wih was thinking of. That one is actually the real killer, isn't it, since it's Will half; and half of 25D12 will still most likely kill Mr Warlock...
Wih 11-19-07, 09:42 PM	Any effect that triggers on effects active - the spell I was referencing I may have got the name wrong on - on a sucessful dispell, it deals damage to the target for every spell dispelled. Ironically, Voracious Dispelling fits the bill. Sure, even if you've only got a 1/20 chance of dispelling each individual effect, if they've cast it 100 times, that's them taking the damage 5 times in one casting...
andrew_southern 12-07-07, 11:54 AM	As for your fire wall idea, the only problem is it takes a minute and a half for the effects to be complete, fights rarely last that long. Assuming that it does last that long and you decide to get the walls up,very few would be without some form of ranged weapon, resistance of some kind, or other form of getting to you, especially at 15th level. As for the level 16, buying or making several wands before casting fly and greater invisibility is just a drop in the bucket for most characters. If a warlock's fly is dispelled, however, he falls from wherever he is at. Without a ring of flying, most characters fall at about 500' per round. Your warlock would go splat fast. The dispelling may take care of your ability to use a ring of feather falling as well, so be prepared.
Oliver D'Argent 12-07-07, 06:39 PM	As for your fire wall idea, the only problem is it takes a minute and a half for the effects to be complete, fights rarely last that long. Assuming that it does last that long and you decide to get the walls up,very few would be without some form of ranged weapon, resistance of some kind, or other form of getting to you, especially at 15th level. As for the level 16, buying or making several wands before casting fly and greater invisibility is just a drop in the bucket for most characters. If a warlock's fly is dispelled, however, he falls from wherever he is at. Without a ring of flying, most characters fall at about 500' per round. Your warlock would go splat fast. The dispelling may take care of your ability to use a ring of feather falling as well, so be prepared. Only half of the damage done by the Warlock's version of Wall of Fire (Wall of Perilous Flame) is fire damage - the rest is Supernatural damage, so even creatures that are immune to fire are going to take some damage from it. Since the wall is opaque, any ranged weapon shot through it will at least suffer a 50% miss chance unless the shooter has some means of targeting other than visually. If the Warlock uses the radius option, anyone inside will either take a little damage every round until the effect ends, or risk running through the wall and taking more damage from that. If the Warlock also has the Chilling Tentacles invocation, he can add cold damage and (possibly) the damage the tentacles cause to anyone who stays inside the ring. By itself - no, it isn't terribly powerful, but the fact that the Warlock can put up an unending succession of walls means that any foe so encircled could potentially have to go through wall after wall in order to get to the Warlock or his party.