Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tordek 05-02-06, 06:57 PM	I have a player who took a rogue to 5th-level, and isn't having any fun. I know her, and think she'd enjoy a bard, so I'm encouraging her to multiclass. This is a magic-poor party, so I was wondering if Bards have an easier time using magical devices than rogues do. For some reason I'm just not seeing anything in the handbooks.
Seerow 05-02-06, 06:59 PM	Aside from a usually higher charisma, why would the bard be better? He doesn't need to use skill checks when the Magic Device uses a spell on his spell list though, if that helps. But both classes have UMD as a class skill, so they should be about the same aside from that.
swindy 05-02-06, 07:13 PM	What you could, just cos she isnt enjoying the rogue, let her make a new character. Make sure its fine with everyone else so they dont all get huffy, and let it go from there. And has she had a good look at all the classes or was she just dumped with the rogue? Just trying to help.
Tordek 05-02-06, 07:29 PM	What you could, just cos she isnt enjoying the rogue, let her make a new character. Make sure its fine with everyone else so they dont all get huffy, and let it go from there. And has she had a good look at all the classes or was she just dumped with the rogue? Just trying to help. I thought about that, but she doesn't really know D&D too well, and if I gave her a whole new 6th-level character she'd have to learn all the new abilities and forget about the rogue ones that she's finally getting the hang of. Does that make sense? Plus, this way she gets into magic a bit more gradually, because I know she's never played a spellcaster class.
swindy 05-02-06, 07:56 PM	This is just spit balling, but how about the assassin PrC? Virtually a rogue and gets spellcasting. And if youre party isnt evil, just change the assassin to suit. Just a thought.
Ataur 05-02-06, 09:19 PM	Seriously, I think it's a great idea. Maybe not the most powerful build in the world, but that's not the point, is it? If a rogue/bard will work for this player's style, then I say run with it (even tho I have no say, but you know what i mean ;) ). Now that I think about it, a Rogue/Bard coud just possibly be one of the absolute best multi-class characters that a newbie could be! She's going to have the widest array of class skills possible, and will teach her the effective use of all of them, an important basic. She'll get a good idea of the importance of tactics in battle due to the rogue's necessity to position himself favorably when fighting (sneak attack maneuvers, stealth, etc). Lastly, the bard offers a fantastic support for the rest of a group through songs (buffs), and a comfortable array of arcane spells that is not intimidating to a new player. The only areas left are the hardcore melee catagories, and, honestly, how hard are those to learn? This combo offers some great basics with just the right dash of fun. On top of that, no one expects a rogue or a bard to be stoic or rigid or at all predictable, so this player can literally have free reign to role-play to her little heart's content! I really don't see a down side here, do you guys? I say this all the time, but I really mean it: Happy Gaming!!!
JulesCARV 05-02-06, 09:49 PM	This may be too complicated a process for someone just learning D&D, so take this with a grain of salt, but I would recommend that, if she wants to be a bard, she be a Prestige Bard (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedPrestige.html). If her character has high charisma, go rogue/sorcerer/prestige bard, and if her character has high intelligence, go rogue/wizard/prestige bard. As for UMD, no, bards are no better at the Use Magic Device skill than rogues. However, they do have a spell list, unlike rogues, so a bard will be able to use, for instance, a wand of cure light wounds or a scroll of charm person without having to roll Use Magic Device. Also, the bard gets access to Eagle's Splendor, which could give a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks. Probably not worth casting a spell just for that, though. UPDATE: It occurs to me that if you go the Prestige Bard route, your player's rogue will NOT be able to use wands of cure light wounds without a Use Magic Device check: prestige bards get the spells on their "base spellcasting class" spell list, and they get the spells that appear exclusively on the bard list, such as lesser confusion and glibness, but they don't get spells that don't appear on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, but do appear on the bard spell list and, say, the cleric spell list. This may make the prestige bard less attractive, unless she wants to get the Arcane Disciple feat, which complicates things still more.
Gondoras 05-02-06, 09:54 PM	Rogues definitely aren't for everyone. Rerolling a character at Level 5 or 6 takes away the ability for a player to get comfortable with what their character can do, so multiclassing would be a good idea. I'd go along with the idea of multi-classing with a Bard. His character won't be a stud, but would be pretty good and Bards are fun to play. It's up to him, though. It'd probably be better to figure out what he doesn't like about the rogue. Usually it's because they don't enjoy continually trying to figure out ways to get off a SA, so Fighter or Barbarian may be a better fit if the player wants to be more of a factor in damage during battles.
swindy 05-02-06, 10:22 PM	The only reason i suggested re-roll is for the fact that rogues, sometimes are annoying to play as. "Go on. Disarm this trap which has the potential of ahnihilating you if you roll less than 18." "Yeah, we'll just hide behind this wall. If we hear anything that sounds like you potentially died, we'll mourn for you." "wha...hey..." Just sit her down, and go through each and every class, dscribe it in full, advantages, disadvantages the whole shabang. See which one SHE likes the sound of the best. Its only fair, i wouldn't want to be stuck with a character i dont like.
Eyeless Blond 05-02-06, 11:52 PM	Indeed, don't drop her into the multiclass just yet. Despite the synergies, a bard/rogue multiclass with lots of rogue levels can be suprisingly bad as a mid- to high-level character unless you've been planning ahead since level 1, in particular skill/feat combos and usually to enter a PrC like Sublime Chord or Fochlucian Lyricist. Being completely ineffective through the mid-levels and into the high levels is just as bad, if not worse, than having a character that is difficult for you to roleplay. What's her current build, how's she playing the character now, and what aspect(s) of the bard make you think she'll like to play one better? We may be able to suggest a few alternate ideas, including Virtuoso, Dragon Disciple, or a few other class/PrC combos that may fit her play style better, and make her more useful to the party.
Tordek 05-03-06, 05:04 AM	Indeed, don't drop her into the multiclass just yet. Despite the synergies, a bard/rogue multiclass with lots of rogue levels can be suprisingly bad as a mid- to high-level character unless you've been planning ahead since level 1, in particular skill/feat combos and usually to enter a PrC like Sublime Chord or Fochlucian Lyricist. Being completely ineffective through the mid-levels and into the high levels is just as bad, if not worse, than having a character that is difficult for you to roleplay. What's her current build, how's she playing the character now, and what aspect(s) of the bard make you think she'll like to play one better? We may be able to suggest a few alternate ideas, including Virtuoso, Dragon Disciple, or a few other class/PrC combos that may fit her play style better, and make her more useful to the party. The reason I thought Bard might be good is she's a very free-spirited "left-brained" person who does alot of art. She wanted to be a "treasure hunter" originally, but as some have pointed out above being the "trap disarmer" isn't very fun. She's been finding herself frustrated that she can't help in combat, so I felt that giving her the ability to sing as well as use some items (like wands) better would be a way to get her into things. She's not advanced enough to use a "build" per-se but she's doing the "I'm an elf-maiden wandering human lands looking for fun." I think she'd like the roleplaying aspects, so I'm encouraging her to let her natural "say things without thinking and hey here's a pretty button" personality to shine through her character. As for prestige classes, Virtuoso seemed good, I've already looked at it. Where can I find Dragon Disciple? I don't feel the need to redo her character as a bard because she's not going for a particular "this is what I'll be at level 20". Even if she doesn't max out her character's potential, the other three in the party are experienced and will be able to fill any gaps she might leave.
Ataur 05-03-06, 10:13 AM	Seriously, I think it's a great idea. Maybe not the most powerful build in the world, but that's not the point, is it? If a rogue/bard will work for this player's style, then I say run with it (even tho I have no say, but you know what i mean ;) ). Now that I think about it, a Rogue/Bard coud just possibly be one of the absolute best multi-class characters that a newbie could be! She's going to have the widest array of class skills possible, and will teach her the effective use of all of them, an important basic. She'll get a good idea of the importance of tactics in battle due to the rogue's necessity to position himself favorably when fighting (sneak attack maneuvers, stealth, etc). Lastly, the bard offers a fantastic support for the rest of a group through songs (buffs), and a comfortable array of arcane spells that is not intimidating to a new player. The only areas left are the hardcore melee catagories, and, honestly, how hard are those to learn? This combo offers some great basics with just the right dash of fun. On top of that, no one expects a rogue or a bard to be stoic or rigid or at all predictable, so this player can literally have free reign to role-play to her little heart's content! I hate to quote myself, but I really feel like I am on the same page as you, Tordek.
Tordek 05-03-06, 02:35 PM	Thanks, this thread is helping me clear up alot.
Ziggaraut 05-03-06, 04:37 PM	The only reason Bard's are just a little better then Rogue's at UMD is simply because Bard's tend to have a higher Charisma, but in this case it wouldn't make her any better at UMD.
Vaelan 05-03-06, 07:14 PM	She's been finding herself frustrated that she can't help in combat... Rogues require the use of feats to be effective in combat. If this is the only concern, work with her on her feats.
Eyeless Blond 05-03-06, 08:02 PM	The reason I thought Bard might be good is she's a very free-spirited "left-brained" person who does alot of art. She wanted to be a "treasure hunter" originally, but as some have pointed out above being the "trap disarmer" isn't very fun. She's been finding herself frustrated that she can't help in combat, so I felt that giving her the ability to sing as well as use some items (like wands) better would be a way to get her into things. She's not advanced enough to use a "build" per-se but she's doing the "I'm an elf-maiden wandering human lands looking for fun." I argue that she already *has* a "build". "Build" is just another word for character sheet; saying someone isn't advanced enough to have one is like saying a house is not advanced enough to have walls, a foundation, or a ceiling. Of course she may not have a *good* build, but making it worse is probably not going to help her. A multiclass character can be very fun to play, and very powerful and useful besides, if done correctly. It is very easy, however, to screw up, especially when adding bard levels, and end up with with a character who can do nothing but hang back, sing, and watch the rest of the party dominate. This is boring, not a good aid to roleplaying, and may well make her disinterested in playing altogether. What I'm worried about, essentially, is that despite your best intentions you may be making the problem worse. Bard is a very easy class to screw up, and the first and worst way to do it is to take too many levels of a non-bardic class like Rogue. Done incorrectly a bard/rogue build becomes a jack of all trades in the sense that she is just good enough to screw up at everything she tries. I made exactly this mistake with my first character, and I'd like to help your player not make the same with hers. I think she'd like the roleplaying aspects, so I'm encouraging her to let her natural "say things without thinking and hey here's a pretty button" personality to shine through her character. As for prestige classes, Virtuoso seemed good, I've already looked at it. Where can I find Dragon Disciple? I don't feel the need to redo her character as a bard because she's not going for a particular "this is what I'll be at level 20". Even if she doesn't max out her character's potential, the other three in the party are experienced and will be able to fill any gaps she might leave. Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm) is part of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), which is basically all the free stuff from all D&D d20 system. You may also want to look at the Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) , another interesting PrC from there. The thing is, without her current "cuild" (meaning character sheet), it'll be tough to figure out what she should aim for, and without some more details on her backstory, playstyle, or preferences we can't really tell you what she'd like to play. There are enough books and resources out there that you can literally build anything you can imagine in D&D; give us something to work with and I'm sure we can come up with something, maybe even something that keeps her current build intact. (Edit): For instance, from what I've read so far she may be interested in playing a Chameleon, basically a PrC from Races of Destiny that can *fake* being any other class convincingly enough to even imitate their spellcasting. It's a wonderfully fun class for a joker to play, and since you're the DM you can make it relatively easy for her to join with a little houseruling. There are lots of other ideas out there, but knowing where to begin will help out a lot.
Tordek 05-04-06, 06:47 PM	Here's her character sheet (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=12078) Her husband already put the one bard level in there, but hasn't added skillpoints. Plus, she has a banked feat. If the numbers aren't quite right, its because I allow some house-rule skill development.
JulesCARV 05-04-06, 06:59 PM	Never mind.
swindy 05-04-06, 08:26 PM	Stone spoon? What the fu... Moving on. I reckon she could make a nice arcane archer. Or assassin like i said earlier. But yeah, definitely arcane archer, two more feats, one level of wizard, pow. But again, you need to sit her down and see what SHE WANTS out of HER CHARACTER. Even if i was just starting to learn how to play, i'd still make my character the classes i wanted, rather than the classes im being told to play. Frankly, i'd just leave the game. I'm sorry, but if you say she should play this class just because of how she likes to roleplay, anyone could be anything. Everyone has their own personality dude. Just get the books, sit her down just you two, no one else and find out what she would like to do after looking through the classes and prestige classes. Then see what she wants, and guide her on that path. Don't dictate what she has to do. Just see what SHE WANTS dude, ok?
Tordek 05-04-06, 08:49 PM	Stone spoon? What the fu... Moving on. Its a "Murlynd's Spoon" but she hasn't bothered to get it identified yet. She hasn't ever actually detected magic on it.
Eyeless Blond 05-04-06, 08:51 PM	"No Personality Assigned." *Snicker snicker* Initial impressions: -She has Point Blank Shot and Improved Initiative (GREAT choice there, seriously; best feat in the game, improved init), so no banked feat, unless you've got another house-rule. -Init still calculated wrong; should be +7. -By the by, are you playing 3.0 or 3.5? I noticed Innuendo on her skill list, which doesn't exist anymore, as it was rolled into Spot, I think, or Listen. Similarly Intuit Direction has been rolled together with Wilderness Lore into Survival. -Far too few ranks in far too many skills. No wonder she feels useless; she only has max ranks in two skills, and both of them are used only rarely, while she has limited ranks in the skills she should be using the most (Bluff, Hide and Move Silently are best for an archer-rogue-type). She should have at least three or four skills maxed; probably more like six or eight as a high-Int rogue. -This still doesn't give us any hints at *how* she plays her character. Description absent, Personality absent, Backstory absent. This is actually MORE important than her current charsheet. The only reason we need THAT is because you want to keep things simple and keep her with the same/similar character; the other tells us what she wants to play. Okay, well I can tell you right now Bard multi is probably a mistake for her, for many reasons: 1) Her stats, in particular her Cha (13). This is fine for rogues (though a Rogue with a penalty to Str is a pain to deal with), but it is pretty well unacceptable for bards. 2) She has very few ranks in bard skills, other than Knowledge(history). In particular, she has no Perform ranks, no Diplomacy ranks. Taking bard levels will necessitate taking ranks in both those skills, further diluting an already crimminally dilute skillset. 3) She's an Elf, so taking levels in bard along with rogue mean an experience penalty. Mechanically speaking, bard is probably the wrong choice here. Do you allow psionics? If so, I'd suggest you simply let her convet her character, straight across, to a fifth level Psychic Rogue. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). Psychic rogue is a better class for this character all the way around: 1) It has much better Int synergy than bard. This is great because she has a high Int. 2) Most of the class abilities are exactly the same as before, so there's fewer new rules to learn and less scribbling to do on her charsheet. It's still a single class as well, so no fiddling with multiclass oddities. The only thing she'll have to fiddle with are skill ranks, but frankly she needs to anyway as right now she's far too spread out to be useful anywhere. (Be sure to invest in Concentration; many of the psychic rogue's class abilities require being psionically focused!) 3) She was going to have to learn spellcasting anyway to be a bard; psionic manifesting isn't that much different (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm) (notice most of that is pretty much the same as the magic rules) and with such a conversion would make those abilities far more useful and powerful. Entangling Ectoplasm will be directly useful in combat, while Far Hand is just fun to use to mess with people. :) Naturally I'd suggest you enable psionics-magic transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicT ransparency), which basically just says that magic and psionics are the same sort of thing and is a lot less of a headache. You might think about picking up a copy of Complete Psionics sometime too, though this is probably for later. So what do you think about that?
Votan 05-04-06, 09:43 PM	If you want her to have soem access to magic, wizard might seem to be a better choice. She has much better stats for this direction (INT 17 vs. CHA 13) and arcane trickster or Daggerspell Mage might be eventual options. Plus you avoid experience penalties which is nice and see spells at much lower levels than would happen otherwise.
Tordek 05-04-06, 09:44 PM	I think you make some valid points which I'm going to bring up when I see her tomorrow.
Eyeless Blond 05-05-06, 01:38 AM	If you want her to have soem access to magic, wizard might seem to be a better choice. She has much better stats for this direction (INT 17 vs. CHA 13) and arcane trickster or Daggerspell Mage might be eventual options. Plus you avoid experience penalties which is nice and see spells at much lower levels than would happen otherwise. Wiz/rogue has several problems with it, however. 1) Either a very low AC or high ASF, likely both, as wizards are generally incapable of wearing armor well. 2) Low caster level, due to already having 4 levels of rogue. She will already be two spell levels behind, and would be even further upon taking that first level of Daggerspell Mage. 3) DSM is a melee class, which doesn't mesh well with a 9-Str character with mostly d6s and d4s for hit dice. Plus it requires two more feats that you don't have, both geared toward melee, which you are unsuited for. 4) Wizards are difficult to play for a newbie, as they require daily spell preparation, which can be very frustrating for someone just starting out. You really need to plan out your entire day beforehand, which some new players are not prepared to do. Plus it doesn't fit what little of her personality we do know (spontaneus rather than methodical.) All of these problems can be solved, and in fact DSM is a very powerful class when played correctly, but it takes lots of buffs, feat/skill choices, and good strategy to overcome, things that require experience. By "experience" I mean the gamer, not the character. :) Stay away from DSM, and probably from wizard as well.
ManinBlaq 05-05-06, 04:21 AM	Warlocks are masters of UMD. They're aslo less 'thinky' than wizards, having a few abilities that they choose .. but has a good selection of utilitarian abilities. It would also make for an interesting daggerspell mage ...
Roxlimn 05-05-06, 06:41 AM	If she's looking to be better in combat, then it should be self-evident that the class she wants is Fighter, not Bard.
Harmony 05-05-06, 06:53 AM	Ranger! Although the problem with xp-penalty becomes an issue as she's an elf. Just one level of Ranger has some decent advantages, a second gives her a combat style (even though low strength and no finesse hurts close combat and rapid fire bow'ing is hurt by both low strength and inability to produce sneak attacks without relying on party members special effects). But getting finesse at 6th level, the decent bonus on BAB, the fortitude save bonus from ranger and the slightly higher hitdie (along with keeping lots of useful skills) allows her to land those sneaky attacks in melee much easier (from my experience, rogues are usually dissatisfed until they can reliably sneak attack and move around in melee (lack of tumble total first few levels)), and when sneak attacking, the -1 to damage from strength isn't all that important. Otherwise, just reallocate the feats? Weapon Finesse and TWF is generally much more effective for a rogue (no need to mention the obvious advantages with high dex and light armour) that don't want to feel useless in combat. Ranged combat and rogue dosen't really mix well due to the lack of feats (again unless you have a very specific build) and simply because it's hard to get sneak attacks beyond the surprise factor with them. At 5th level, the two-weapon fighting rogue that deals 4d6 x 2 (assuming shortswords and sneak attack) as base damage is pretty wicked - and while perhaps not as brutal and consantly effective as a high strength power attacking and cleaving group member, the sheer amout of dice tends to keep rogues up and alert, scanning for any flanking posibilites, even if only getting one of the strikes in. Also, perhaps reallocating the abilites might make her feel more home? Focusing on Intelligence usually makes rather boring rogues (in combat anyway, and D&D usually has a lot of combat, and if that's boring, the game gets boring. Don't let people be bored!) At a certain point (usually around +2 mod) for rogues, it gives little bonus compared to the boost a focus on dexterity would have had (judging from the sheet, she put a 17 in int and 14 (+2 for elf, and +1 for level 4?) in int, which if the 17 had been put in dex would have made it 20 by level 4, respectable indeed, and while maintaining int at 14, the still magic +2). Consider it, while rogues have the most to gain from skills, they are by no means the end of all, nor the sole party member with skills. Does the party have another charasmatic class? Have him take Diplomacy. You have low strength? Have someone else pick climb and rely on that person helping you. The list could be endless. What rogues usually directly rely on is stealth, detection, disarming and tumble (8 skills), the rest are just bonus and can nearly always be done better by another party member, and with a 14 in int, you have 2 additional skills you can fully focus on, or more you can be diversly skilled at - with the basics covered. Remember, a party member never needs to be fully self-reliable (why would he group up if he was?) A fighter with int 14 would double his skill points, a rogue gains 25% extra. At 18, the fighter would have trippled, the rogue would have gained 50% (but like stated before, the rogue has a superior skill list, but it doesn't mean they have to be one-army-skill-goons. ) How many skill points do you really need? At a certain stage the usefulness does run out. A high dexterity score with feats that provide synergy (finesse and the two-weapon chains as example) never ends in usefulness. See it as a generic full-plate fighter. A dexterity score higher than 13 is rarely if ever needed (and 12 unless going for the dodge chain). The only benefit from higher dexterity is an increase reflex save (which magic items can aid much more smoother), while Strength and Constitution however, have a more infinite and direct stacking (more to hit, damage, hit points and fortitude save). That's of course granted she's not going for a class or prestige class that is based on intelligence (swashbuckler, assassin, duelist and whatever those knifefighters are called etc) where a higher score is still beneficial. That said, a high dexterity is still the the bread and butter for those classes, attack bonus, AC and most vital skills are simply dependent on it.
Votan 05-05-06, 09:18 AM	Wiz/rogue has several problems with it, however. 1) Either a very low AC or high ASF, likely both, as wizards are generally incapable of wearing armor well. 2) Low caster level, due to already having 4 levels of rogue. She will already be two spell levels behind, and would be even further upon taking that first level of Daggerspell Mage. 3) DSM is a melee class, which doesn't mesh well with a 9-Str character with mostly d6s and d4s for hit dice. Plus it requires two more feats that you don't have, both geared toward melee, which you are unsuited for. 4) Wizards are difficult to play for a newbie, as they require daily spell preparation, which can be very frustrating for someone just starting out. You really need to plan out your entire day beforehand, which some new players are not prepared to do. Plus it doesn't fit what little of her personality we do know (spontaneus rather than methodical.) All of these problems can be solved, and in fact DSM is a very powerful class when played correctly, but it takes lots of buffs, feat/skill choices, and good strategy to overcome, things that require experience. By "experience" I mean the gamer, not the character. :) Stay away from DSM, and probably from wizard as well. These are all good points. However, I do think that something with intelligence as a prime ability score fits this character better but I might be focusing on the pretty nice 17 INT too much (and being too wrried about a 13 CHA). If the player wants spells, something like wizard or psion seem to be the obvious choices (and psion isn't always available; otherwise practiced manifestor could make the class remarkably useful). I just find bard a tough class to multiclass because it has a lot of scaling abilities and the character, as is, cannot easily focus on skills (the one angle that stacks).
gabrion 05-05-06, 10:37 AM	I second the vote for warlock. Have her grab that and the practiced spellcaster feat at 6th level and then houserule as a DM that the requirment for Arcane Trickster is arcane CL 5th rather than the ability to cast 2nd level spells. Have her jump into that PrC and she should be able to have a good time.
Eyeless Blond 05-05-06, 10:12 PM	Re: wizard. I am in full agreement that wiz is a powerful class, and that her abilities are good for wiz as well. My points still stand that it's too tough a class for a newbie to play, and she's gone too far down the path of the rogue to suddenly shift gears like that. Re: warlock. Yes, that's not too bad a choice either. It's far better than bard, at any rate. Practiced spellcaster doesn't really do anything, though, and most of the DSM's class abilities won't work either as warlocks don't actually cast spells, and SLAs don't really do the same thing. Further, there are few good melee invocations for a 'lock. So if you are going this route you're best off with rogue4/'lockX, or rogue4/'lock6/Arcane Trickster (even with the most generous interpretation I'd require warlock 6 for lesser invocations before allowing her to take Arcane Trickster.) She'd still have the problem of XP penalties too. Another class I could see her taking is Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior, for its third level ability. In fact, you want to get really crazy try this: rogue4/swashbuckler3/paladin3/Champion of Corellon Larethian10 Now there's some power for you. Dex, Int and Str to damage, Cha to saves, move aroung in heavy armor like it's light armor (which I'd rule counts for Evasion as well), self-healing, BAB +19. Of course by this point you're in no way a real rogue, but then you're not trying to be one are you? Oh, and she'll be spending four levels taking a 20% XP penalty, but she's pretty much assured of having something like that now, seeing as only a wizard multi will get her out of that if she's being forced to multi out of rogue4. I still think straight conversion to psychic rogue is the easiest and potentially most interesting option.