Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carefree Butterfly* 07-31-06, 01:20 PM	This is not a rules question at all. I've noticed that in some books where prestige classes are offered, some players skip over prestige classes that offer, say, three or five maximum levels in that class without reading them. Is there some sort of attraction to prestige classes with ten? Or do most people just suck at designing playable shorter prestige classes? I ask this because I am designing a few prestige classes for a campaign of mine. I tend to design flavor-heavy prestige classes, those based on an organization or group, with five or less max. levels in mind, whereas I keep more generic ones, such as assassin, at ten. And there's no point in designing several prestige classes if some people don't even read them, unless I design it with an NPC in mind. So, is creating shorter prestige classes a bad idea or are my worries completely paranoid?
IbanezNinja 07-31-06, 01:23 PM	I dunno why you players tend to skip over prcs with less than ten levels, but there is nothing wrong with short prcs. They do their job just the same.
Seerow 07-31-06, 01:27 PM	Some players will skip them because they want to complete a prestige class and have that class be a major part of their character. If at the end of your Career you're a Fighter15/Tempest5, you probably think of yourself as more of a Fighter than you do a Tempest. But if you're a Fighter10/Dervish10, you probably think of yourself as more of a Dervish. Stuff like that.
OravennasBrother 07-31-06, 02:01 PM	And here I sort of PREFER short PrC's - you aren't left thinking "This campaign has to get to level 16 so I can get the ultra KEWL level 10 power of this PrC that requires I take 2 levels of Fighter and Four levels of Rogue to qualify." NO truly I personally prefer short 3 - 5 level PrC's. Vanilla - Chocolate
SigmaJargon 07-31-06, 02:29 PM	Also, any PrC with fewer than 10 levels cannot have an epic progression. Though campaigns rarely reach that far, sometimes people like to think ahead to that point.
Rapidexit 07-31-06, 02:32 PM	Well there are a few reasons players like longer prestigue classes, a big one is the requirements. Needing 8 of a knowlege skill, ability to use some power or another and a feat or two means you actualy have to work to get into a prestigue class. After burning a feat or two and spending skill points in something you might not really consider important you dont really get alot right away. the first level or three of a prestigue class usualy doesnt have powers that are all that strong as its easy to get a "common" character into the class. unless its a class like mystic thurge, they are probaly looking at the level 4-10 class abilitys. Its really not a question of not likeing a 5 level prestigue class its just that a power a prestigue class offers you at class5/PrC10 is likely more impressive and game altering then a power a prestigue class offers you at class5/PrC3. Its similar to the reason why you might dip into a class, you only need level 2 hexblade to grab metal, and they decide metal is "worth" dipping into it. Personaly I love some of the more overlooked small PrC's. I'm kinda sad I havent found a nice 5 level PrC that would augment a Rogue/wizard/arcane trickester But then theres also the fact that it looks really silly sheet wise to see your a Rogue1/Wizard3/PrC2/PrC3/PrC5/PrC5/Prc1 at level 20.
Harmony 07-31-06, 03:39 PM	I much prefere a 5 level prestige class over a 10. They tend to have a nice constant evolvment and no "dead" levels like many 10's, and tend to actually make a flavour much better by being brief. They are also by no means as limiting to evolvement as a 10 level prestige class, which you at earliest "graduate" from at 15th level, while a 5 level could be done at 10th.
benstundze 07-31-06, 03:48 PM	there you have it it seams a 10 lvl is for newbs and a 5 for more into D&D players lol just kiding lol
Otto the Bugbear 07-31-06, 07:02 PM	Also, any PrC with fewer than 10 levels cannot have an epic progression. Though campaigns rarely reach that far, sometimes people like to think ahead to that point. You should probably explain that a little bit more. IIRC, it's really only true if you're unable to repeat a 7 level or 5 level progression. Or does the EHB actually say "you cannot progress PrCs with fewer than 10 levels"? Cheers Otto :)
Kapalen 07-31-06, 07:19 PM	You should probably explain that a little bit more. IIRC, it's really only true if you're unable to repeat a 7 level or 5 level progression. Or does the EHB actually say "you cannot progress PrCs with fewer than 10 levels"? Cheers Otto :) It's right there in the EHB, jsut like you said: "You cannot progress PrCs with fewer than 10 levels."
Otto the Bugbear 07-31-06, 07:36 PM	I wonder why? The epic rules are pretty broken and retarded to begin with, so I wonder what it is about a 5 level PrC that scared the writers so. Cheers Otto :)
utilitarian 07-31-06, 07:48 PM	I wonder why? The epic rules are pretty broken and retarded to begin with, so I wonder what it is about a 5 level PrC that scared the writers so. Cheers Otto :) 5 level PrCs generally don't have clear progression that can be plotted out beyond thier intended 5 levels. The intent of the PrC is achieved after 5 levels, and there's really no further intent involved. Tempest is the perfect example: take 5 levels in it and you've already got all the bonuses to dual wielding it has to offer. That said there's a lot of 10 level PrCs that don't have any kind of clear epic progression either, Dragon Disciple or Emerald Star Savant come to mind. At 10 you're already a half dragon or construct, where do you go from there? I think the thing about 5 level PrCs is they tend to be very specialized in what they do. While every PrC has a specific flavor to it, 10 level prestige classes tend to do a variety of things which can be very appealing. A 5 level PrC generally does one thing very well and that's about it. Sure 5 levels in Frostrager (one of my favorite 5 level PrCs) will give you a really nifty ability, but that's really all it gives you, whereas 5 levels in Bear Warrior will give you similar power AND put you that much closer to the even greater power you can get with the last 5 levels. I think I've lost my focus here.
Galahad the Pure 07-31-06, 10:57 PM	Among character optimizers, there is ambivalence. I personally haven't noticed anyone showing preference for prestige classes by length. A friend of mine in my campaign is leveling in the force-spell prestige class in Complete Arcane. Two of the more popular prestige classes from Complete Warrior are the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower, though they could have put them together as one class and no one would have known. The Exotic Weapon Master is a PrC designed for dipping...none of the stunts on the list work particularly well in tandem unless you're using a spiked chain. So one level is usually all you want. And let's not forget the Archmage!
Carefree Butterfly* 08-01-06, 10:48 AM	My players know I don't use Epic Rules. If any character survives that far, I usually just run a series of epic-like adventures with level 20. So that's not really an issue. I notice that some players dip a lot, just for one ability or to pursue other classes. So, I thought what I'd do was, I'd just offer a great ability with a few supplementary ones, instead of offering "dead levels" and the same stuff. By removing dead levels, sometimes I'd have to tighten requisites to dissuade 5th level characters from getting a 15th level ability. That might be a problem. Generally, my shorter PrCs are designed: 1 - Decent ability that follows the PrC theme, or a core ability of this PrC 2 - A specialized version of a class ability that usually follows the PrC theme, mostly so players don't "miss out" on stuff happening in their previous class, while remaining true to the flavor of the PrC 3 - Usually a set of bonuses relevant to the class, a bonus feat that really ties in with this class, or a complementary ability 4 - Advance the core ability gained in the class to avoid being obsolete 5 - A great ability that represents a character's graduation as a member of this PrC This isn't a cookie cutter, but it's a good guideline. I guess I'll have to design a few and gauge the player response, because it seems that feelings vary on this.