Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kresalak 02-26-07, 01:30 PM	Since the current Warlock from Complete Arcane doesn't work at all, and people obviously want to play a crazy dude who trades his soul for power, I decided to make a better version of it. This class was primarily made by taking some of the core mechanics of the True Fiend (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688) and Fire Mage (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=3&thread=11&postnum=18) and splicing them together, then by adding some other abilities. It was originally posted in the "Making the Warlock from scratch" thread, but I can get a lot more feedback on it here. Warlock “I have all the powers of Hell at my disposal. Who are you to question me?” Some people want power, and are crazy enough to offer their soul to various not nice people to get it. Others are simply (un)lucky enough to be descendants of those same people. However they managed to get their abilities, Warlocks wield the powers of the lower planes, which include powerful magic spells and the ability to shoot hellfire out of their hands. Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment. Races: Warlocks can be any non-Outsider. Actual Outsiders don’t bargain away their souls because they already have the ability to use the powers they would get, and that is represented by them having access to classes like True Fiend or Conduit of the Lower Planes. However, a Warlock who later becomes an Outsider can still be a Warlock. Starting Gold: 4d4*10 gp (100 gold) Starting Age: As Rogue. Hit Die: d6 Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha). Skills/Level: 4+ Int modifier, x4 at first level. BAB: Medium, as Rogue. Saves: Fort: Poor, Reflex: Good, Will: Good. Level, Benefit 1: Sphere, Eldritch Blast 2: Fiendish Similarities 3: Sphere 4: Call Fiends 5: Hellfire Blast 6: Sphere 7: Damage Reduction 8: Bonus feat 9: Sphere 10: Dark Blast 11: Fiendish Servant 12: Sphere 13: Energy resistance 14: Fear Aura 15: Sphere, Fiendish Apotheosis Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Warlocks are proficient in light armor, shields (but not tower shield), and simple weapons. Sphere: A Warlock gains basic access to a sphere (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285363&postcount=5) at every third level. If the Warlock selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access. However, a Warlock with Expert access to a Sphere may only use spells gained at level 15, 17, and 19 5/day instead of at-will. Eldritch Blast (Su): As an attack action, a Warlock may fire a blast of fire at his foes. This has a range of Close (25 feet +5 ft./2 levels), does 1d6 damage per level of Warlock, and requires a ranged touch attack to hit. You can only use Eldritch Blast with attacks derived from your Base Attack Bonus; Rapid Shot, Haste, or similar abilities that grant extra attacks do not work. Fiendish Similarities: A 2nd level Warlock may qualify for and take feats with the [Fiend] or [Necromantic] tag, as long as he meets the other requirements. For [Necromantic] feats, he may use his character level as his caster level. Call Fiends (Sp): At 4th level, a Warlock can Summon an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype once per day, as long as the Outsider’s Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of creatures summoned by reducing the max CR of the creatures by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Warlock could summon one CR 6 fiend, two CR 4 fiends, 4 CR 2 fiends, or 8 CR 1 fiends). This is treated as a spell of one half the Warlock’s level, rounded down, with a caster level equal to his levels in Warlock. Hellfire Blast (Su): At 5th level, a Warlock may choose to fire a blast of hellfire instead of normal fire, at the cost of 2d6 points of damage (i.e. a 5th level Warlock could use a 5d6 fire blast or a 3d6 hellfire blast). This blast bypasses fire resistance and deals half damage to creatures with fire immunity. Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a Warlock gains damage reduction equal to one half his class level, rounded up. This damage reduction is bypasses by whatever material is baneful to the Warlock’s fiendish patron or ancestor (silver for Baatezu, wood for Yugoloths, stone for Demodands, and iron for Tanar’ri) or Good aligned weapons. At 13th level, it is bypassed only by one of those, which the Warlock chooses upon taking the level. If a Warlock later takes levels in True Fiend, the damage reduction stacks and, at the third level of True Fiend, is bypassed only by weapons that are both Good and made of a baneful substance. Bonus Feat: At 8th level, a Warlock gains one bonus feat, which can be any [Fiend] feat he qualifies for. Dark Blast (Su): At 10th level, a Warlock may choose to change the damage of his Eldritch Blast to Unholy damage by reducing the damage it deals by 4d6 (a 10th level Warlock could opt to fire a 10d6 fire blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, or 6d6 unholy blast). Fiendish Servant: An 11th level Warlock is followed by a cohort whose CR is 2 less than his level, but the cohort can only have levels in True Fiend, Fiendish Brute, or Conduit of the Lower Planes (they can also have racial hit dice). Regardless of class chosen, the cohort must be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, though they do not have to actually be evil. Energy Resistance: At 13th level, a Warlock gains resistance 10 to two energy types of his choice, and resistance 5 to a third. Fear Aura (Su): At 14th level, a Warlock can radiate a 20 foot aura of Fear as per the spell at will with a caster level equal to his character level. Save DC is 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier. People who save against this aura cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours. Fiendish Apotheosis: A 15th level Warlock becomes an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, even if his own alignment is not evil. He is immortal and does not age. This allows him to qualify for the Fiend (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285350&postcount=3) classes, which can be used to fill out his last 5 levels.
kadeity 02-26-07, 01:44 PM	so wait.... does he not gain invocations? you do realize alot of people LOVE the warlock... and no one who knows what they are talking about thinks its broken...
Bauglir 02-26-07, 01:46 PM	May want to change the Eldritch Blast to a standard action instead of an attack action, or else this warlock gets 60d6 points of damage at level 20 each round at will, requiring only 3 ranged touch attacks and allowing no save. (If I understand how actions work correctly, anyway)
kadeity 02-26-07, 02:01 PM	oh... so a sphere chooses his Spell like abilities for him? If i were you id repost the spheres on here so people dont have to do what i did and hunt them down.
aotrscommander 02-26-07, 02:04 PM	May want to change the Eldritch Blast to a standard action instead of an attack action, or else this warlock gets 60d6 points of damage at level 20 each round at will, requiring only 3 ranged touch attacks and allowing no save. (If I understand how actions work correctly, anyway) Or add in one level of any full BAB class for a +16 BAB and 76D6 damage per round... Either drop it to a standard action or make it half level D6. (Consistant 30D6 (or 36D6) is still pretty darn good!) Could you define 'sphere'? Do you really mean the class is only 15 levels long, or are the last 5 levels just adding extra blast damage?
IbanezNinja 02-26-07, 02:40 PM	Spheres can be found in Frank and K's Tome of Fiends, here (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=3&thread=11&postnum=18).
Kresalak 02-26-07, 03:14 PM	May want to change the Eldritch Blast to a standard action instead of an attack action, or else this warlock gets 60d6 points of damage at level 20 each round at will, requiring only 3 ranged touch attacks and allowing no save. (If I understand how actions work correctly, anyway) The class ends at 15th level, at which point the Warlock gets 15d6 three times, which is 45d6. At this point a Rogue can TWF using vials of Alchemists Fire/Frost/Acid for 1d6+8d6 six times per round, ending up with an impressive 54d6, all as Touch attacks. Furthermore, if the Warlock wishes to pierce fire resistance, he only gets 13d6 per attack, and to get past immunity he only has 11d6. Yes, the class is 15 levels long. This is intended to keep the blast damage in line (I want him slightly less awesome at killing things with damage than a Rogue), as well as to give him an opportunity to get actual Fiend classes. And as soon as I'm done this I'll add a link for Spheres and True Fiend.
belthazzar1113 02-26-07, 03:33 PM	never had anyone ever say the warlock sucked. never had any problems with one not being strong enough either. only thing anyone ever complained about what eldritch blow provoking attacks, but thats a very minor problem. i thinkt he warlock works great, and is far more balanced than your class. It can do more damage at level 20 than just about anything short of an optimized character or a frenzied berzerker. and thats right out of the box without spending anything feat or skill or magic item wize to improve combat ability. and thats pretty sick. the class has some serious flaw, and the idea tha tthe warlock needs to be "fixed" because it "sucks" is both foolish and rude. the warlock is fine. if you want to change it for some reason then go ahead, but trying to fix what isn't broken is hubris, pure and simple.
Kresalak 02-26-07, 03:47 PM	Did you read the part where I explain that a Rogue can do 54d6 (48d6 from SA alone) at level 15, where my Warlock only gets 45d6?
Puca 02-26-07, 04:06 PM	He may have disregarded that damage since it only applies to a rogue optimized for throwing having taken at least four feats to pull this off and who is willing to spend a minimum of 60 gp per round on acid and has some sort of means to carry around all of the alchemical substances he needs and is still limited to 6d6 damage per round against constructs, undead, plants, or anything with concealment or fortification and even when the opponent is vulnerable only when they are denied their dex since you cant flank with a thrown weapon.
Kresalak 02-26-07, 04:21 PM	Ring of Command Word Greater Blink: 45,000 Wand of Grave/Golemstrike: 4,500 total Staff of Major Creation (for the alchemical items: 16,875 When I have time I can do a level by level breakdown of Eldritch Blast and why you will rarely use it.
belthazzar1113 02-26-07, 04:43 PM	yes congratulations. your optimized rogue is better than this warlock mash you have created.... barely. now take this over to the char op boards and get two monkeys to fiddle with it and i wouldn't be surprized to see several hundred d6 a round coming out of this mess. my point is that this is optimization level power right out of the box, you optimize this and you can pun pun are going to be the only two playing that game. and secondly have you ever actually PLAYED a warlock? we use eldritch blast all the time, almost every round in fact. its an amzing staple and one of the few things that cna be relied upon in a pinch when all your crazy little tricks and tactics are blown right out of the water. eldritch blast works wonders where so many other things fail. good consistant damage that can be used all day long. its hard to beat that. so mabey the problem isn't that the warlock sucks, mabey its just your not playig a warlock how a warlock should be played.
1CentSage 02-26-07, 05:02 PM	Regarding Call Fiends (Sp): There is no duration specified. Is this a calling effect or like summon monster? Do the same restrictions regarding the use of innate summoning abilities as for summon monster apply to the summoned fiends? Fear is a flavorfull but rather weak ability at level 14 especially when you have to make sure that your teammates are not affected by it. Does the use of eldritch blast provoke attacks of opportunity? If not, I would state it explicitely for clarity. Are there any limitations apart from CR and classes to what kind of cohort I can choose? If not, I think this ability is highly abusable given the ever increasing number of published monsters, some of which have abilities which make them much more usefull as a "party member" as they make them challenging as enemies. Is this "Warlock" meant as a replacement for the official or as an addition? In the later case, how do the different eldritch blast abilities of the two classes interact?
Puca 02-26-07, 05:05 PM	Ring of Command Word Greater Blink: 45,000Still cant get around concealment or fortification or any number of spells. Wand of Grave/Golemstrike: 4,500 totalIs good money after bad since they have a one-round duration and take a standard action to activate. Staff of Major Creation (for the alchemical items: 16,875A single casting of this costs you 337.5 and youll have to cast it a minimum of 4 times per day to be prepared. Good luck with that. Pointing at what one class might theoretically do under optimal circumstances and comparing it to what your class can do under just about any circumstance even when not optimized doesnt change anything.
ShinoAburame 02-26-07, 05:25 PM	The Warlock is actually fairly balanced, yeah, it's uber limited spell-wise, but that's it's flavor. It takes the sorcerer style to a whole new level. Theoreticaly I don't need any high stat. Sure charisma determines spell DC, but because they're more like spell-like effects, it's not as important as a normal caster's keystat. Combined with some cool side abilities, hit die d6, and better skill-list then the sorcerer. It tottaly replaced the sorcerer.
DarkRhystar 02-26-07, 05:35 PM	I'd wager it looks more powerful than it is. This class pales in a utility comparison to the Warlock's Invocations at very least. That said, I think enough people like the Warlock for a replacement to be unnecessary. I know I'd rather have the Warlock's nifty abilities than your walking-cannon class. Just rename it to something else. :)
Bhaal006 02-26-07, 06:13 PM	I'm not sure how you can summon fiends, become a fiend(gaining the evil subtype) and not be evil, that just doesnt make any sense. also id like to know what DM would fall for it
Leress 02-26-07, 06:54 PM	so wait.... does he not gain invocations? you do realize alot of people LOVE the warlock... and no one who knows what they are talking about thinks its broken... Yes no invocations... and alot don't like the warlock, he never said it was broken. He is actually saying the opposite. It is a weak class. I'm not sure how you can summon fiends, become a fiend(gaining the evil subtype) and not be evil, that just doesnt make any sense. also id like to know what DM would fall for it It makes sense if you don't think about it as black and white.
travellersside 02-26-07, 07:17 PM	I think that I understand this class. A casual reading indicates that it isn't as bad as all that. You see, the normal warlock, a class that I am rather fond of, is a well balanced class of a comparable level of power to a rogue (not a rogue that's been optimised to the max - a 'normal' rogue). However, rogues and warlocks exist in the same world as wizards, druids and clerics, all of whom are walking engines of destruction, completely eclipsing the other classes once they hit the higher levels, and by higher levels, I mean double digits. As such, if the warlock is supposed to work alongside these classes, he needs some serious beefing up. I realised as soon as I saw the Sphere access that this is based of Frank/K's articles. Frank & K realised that it was easier to build up the other classes than to trim down the entire magic and monster system. Consequently, they created classes that were of a comparable level to the powerhouses. While it's not for everyone, this system can work. So, looking over this variant, what do we see? Well, the bit that's attracted the most attention is the Eldritch Blast variant. Has anyone noticed that the basic form is fire damage? The most commonly resisted energy type? By reducing the damage, you can bypass this, but even then, you don't have the flexibility that a regular warlock does. Personally, I rather like doing untyped damage, so having to lose damage dice to bypass fire resistance feels like a step backwards, despite doing slightly more damage. At level 15, each blast does 15D6 fire OR 13D6 hellfire OR 11D6 unholy. At level 20, a regular warlock does 9D6 untyped. At 15, that's 7D6. However, interestingly, it's possible to take an Essence type and change that untyped damage into typed, gaining special effects and possibly extra damage. This warlock doesn't have that. I did notice that the blast is supernatural rather than spell-like. This is necessary, else you'd be helpless against SR foes. This variant gets multiple blasts, based on its attacks, rather than one per round. However, have you noticed that the blasts are all single target and short ranged? A regular warlock has the option of an Eldritch Spear for long range, or a chain or cone for multiple targets. This variant gets its third blast/round at level 15. A regular warlock has probably been using a Cone since level 11, capable of hitting as many enemies as you can fit inside the area. In other words, in terms of number of targets, this variant comes off worse. You have flexibility of targets - they don't have to be close together, but each iterative attack is at a penalty to hit, which means that your 3rd attack, at level 15, is at Dex +1, which won't hit much, despite being Touch. Cones are auto-hit. So, in terms of blast damage against a creature with no fire resistance, this variant comes off better. However, since we're talking about an average damage of 52.5 per hit at level 15, this isn't as impressive as it sounds. How many combat classes (and this is a combat class) are capable of as little damage as 150/round at that level? Most classes have an easy time exceeding that. Next, this variant loses invocations, replacing them with Spheres. A quick summary is that Spheres are like Domains. You get a basic power, and a number of themed spell-like abilities, each usable a certain number of times each day. The more times you put your sphere access into a specific sphere, the more uses you can have each day. This variant gets 6 sphere access points, which could be used to get basic access to 6 spheres, or more likely, expert access to 2. Expert access gives you unlimited uses per day of the spell-like abilities, while basic gives 1/day, and advanced gives 3/day. Remember, that (and I laugh to hear myself say this) the regular warlock has greater flexibility in choosing which powers to gain. Once you've chosen your spheres, your higher level powers are already decided. The only way that you can get a different selection is if you don't fully master that sphere, giving you an extremely limited number of uses each day, which is grossly inefficient. What else do you get? You become an Evil Outsider? That's minor. Nice, but not a big deal. I would heavily recommend that this be altered to a Native Outsider, else there'll be a lot of trouble when it comes to bringing you back from the dead. Not to mention the weakness of being Banished. You also get the ability to call fiends once/day. IIRC, this is the standard one that fiends get, and therefore lasts for 1 hour, and called critters cannot use their own calling powers. Check the monster manual for further details, since this is where it comes from. Incidentally, being able to call fiends with a CR 3 less than your own means that they're speedbumps, not a way of accessing ultimate power. More useful is the cohort that you gain, although since you're limited to only a handful of classes, most of the abuse is gone. The classes are certainly good, but they don't cover all eventualities. The other things are a trivial resistance to 3 energy types, a modest DR and a fear aura that most enemies won't notice. Summary. This is an interesting and flavourful class that will only be of interest to a small subset of players. However, for these players, this is likely to be very useful. It's not as powerful as a first reading indicates, and in fact it compares unfavourably against the Big Three, indicating that it can't be as bad as people make out. On the whole, I rather like it. Suggested alterations: Fiendish Apotheosis - gain the [Native] sub-type. Eldritch Blast - people need to get over their fear of other people rolling lots of dice. Also, it's annoying to have to track down large numbers of identical dice. Consider rolling a smaller number of dice, but with a fixed modifier to give a comparable average. 7D6 + 2*HD would give an average of 54.5 at level 15 - near enough the same as makes no odds, and allow the damage to increase if you took levels in another class, albeit at a reduced rate. Skills: No Profession or Craft? Called Fiends and Cohorts: Any fiends? It's fine to have a ba'atezu cohort, but to call up tana'ari fiends? Just wondering about consistency. A list would probably be helpful, not least because there are some interesting loopholes available. A more extensive reading would probably provide a few more recommendations, not to mention allowing me to write a more coherent review. ;) Bhaal006: for a non-evil class that summons fiends, check the ToM for the Fiendbinder PrC. While you can be evil, there's no requirement for it - you're just using them, not obeying them. As a bonus, A LN cleric of Hextor (LE god) will radiate Evil as powerful of a comparable fiend, despite not actually being Evil himself. There is precedent.
Kresalak 02-26-07, 07:35 PM	yes congratulations. your optimized rogue is better than this warlock mash you have created.... barely. now take this over to the char op boards Those guys drool over 24d6/round at level 20; I frankly don't care one whit about them. Plus, I didn't make an optimized Rogue-I gave you a set of equipment that any Rogue should have. have you ever actually PLAYED a warlock? we use Eldritch blast all the time, almost every round in fact. its an amazing staple and one of the few things that can be relied upon in a pinch when all your crazy little tricks and tactics are blown right out of the water. Eldritch blast works wonders where so many other things fail. good consistent damage that can be used all day long. its hard to beat that. so maybe the problem isn't that the warlock sucks, maybe its just your not playing a warlock how a warlock should be played. Eldritch Blast is, at best, 9d6 per round. That's 31.5 damage. That's less than the amount that a melee character does per hit. That amount of damage is a Reserve feat, and Reserve feats suck so bad they're actually not even worth getting for free. Seriously, Rogues get that **** every attack. And who said my Warlock was limited? It gets a Sphere every three levels. That's a possibility of 60 discrete 1/day abilities, or 20 unlimited abilities-and that's actually more than a normal Warlock gets. Regarding Call Fiends (Sp): There is no duration specified. Is this a calling effect or like summon monster? Do the same restrictions regarding the use of innate summoning abilities as for summon monster apply to the summoned fiends? It does; perhaps it would be more clear if I put it in italics. I'll do that. Fear is a flavorful but rather weak ability at level 14 especially when you have to make sure that your teammates are not affected by it. I agree. I added it on because I believe that dead levels are inexcusable, but I couldn't think of what to give them at that point. At the very least, it's a free action to use (free action to turn it off too), so it won't ever interfere with doing something level appropriate. Does the use of Eldritch blast provoke attacks of opportunity? If not, I would state it explicitly for clarity. Supernatural abilities never provoke attacks of opportunity unless explicitly stated. Are there any limitations apart from CR and classes to what kind of cohort I can choose? If not, I think this ability is highly abusable given the ever increasing number of published monsters, some of which have abilities which make them much more useful as a "party member" as they make them challenging as enemies. I should have specified that they have to be an Outsider. That's an oversight on my part. Is this "Warlock" meant as a replacement for the official or as an addition? In the later case, how do the different Eldritch blast abilities of the two classes interact? Replacement, so they don't. As promised, level breakdown: Level One: You have a 1d6 touch attack with a range of 25 feet. Of course, you'd rather throw down Obscuring Mist or something, but this is a good backup weapon. Doesn't compare to a melee fighter or even a guy with a bow and Rapid Shot. Or a Rogue TWFing vials of acid, but that's expensive at this level. Level Two: Woo, 2d6 damage once per round! That might be half as good as your Fighter friend does in melee! Also the range is now 30 feet, which is more than 1/4th the range of a longbow. Level Three: You have a 3d6 attack, but you also have a new Sphere and a new SLA (or 2 extra uses of your existing ones). This means either 4 single use abilities, or 2 3/day abilities, all of which should be better than a 3d6 touch attack. Level Four: You probably don't want to go about summoning a Dretch with your action at this point, though you could if you want. More likely, you're still throwing out your spell-like abilities. A 4d6 backup is nice, though. Level Five: New SLA, so new stuff to do instead of using Eldritch Blast. 5d6 is still unimpressive. Level Six: New sphere, new crap to throw out. 21 damage once per round at 40 feet isn't very impressive at all. Level Seven: 7d6, yawn. New powers on your spheres, though. Level Eight: You get a second attack, which rocks. For once, you're better of using that than one of your SLAs. At least until next level, when you get a new sphere and new powers. Level Nine: New sphere, new powers, new win. Bye-bye, 9d6 twice per round, hello Flesh to Ice! Level 10: No new powers, but you can launch 10d6 twice per round, averaging 70 damage. Unless your enemy has fire resistance, in which case you have to lose 4d6 to deal 56 (or lose 20 from the resistance and deal 50). Still, it's not bad. Level 11: New powers, no longer care about Eldritch Blast. Level 12: New sphere, see above. Level 13: The pattern repeats itself. Level 14: This level is pretty good in that you might consider 98 damage/round instead of a 13th level SLA. Unless you have Wall of Force or something. Level 15: Last level of the class. Now, you could launch 15d6 at +11/+6/+1, but you could also use your new 15th level SLAs and sphere instead. Maybe you could mix it up or something.
MerlintheTuna 02-26-07, 07:38 PM	My response to every bit of this class is "bleh," with the exception of the parts that make me respond "yarf." I'll stick with CArc, thanks.
shamus_the_daft 02-26-07, 07:48 PM	greetings. two things one eldritch blast has been errata'ed as having the same progression as sneak attack. two if you really need damage dealing with a warlock I suggest the eldritch glaive blast shape invocation from dragon magic it essentially creats a glaive of energy that deals your eldritch blast damage and lets you use your full attack action to get up to 30d6 damage per round at 20th level and most attacks will hit as they are melee touch attacks its still not as much as a rogue can do but it is reach so it does not provoke AoO's. -shamus the daft
LordArchaon 02-26-07, 08:39 PM	Really appreciating the class. I will play-test it ASAP. One only question: why making the Blast a Supernatural ability? Is it so bad to "force" this Warlock to get Spell Penetration in order to help him bypass SR?
Leress 02-26-07, 08:48 PM	Really appreciating the class. I will play-test it ASAP. One only question: why making the Blast a Supernatural ability? Is it so bad to "force" this Warlock to get Spell Penetration in order to help him bypass SR? Umm it think you have that wrong Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
belthazzar1113 02-26-07, 09:04 PM	Those guys drool over 24d6/round at level 20; I frankly don't care one whit about them. Plus, I didn't make an optimized Rogue-I gave you a set of equipment that any Rogue should have. if your going to factor in equipment that any XXX should have then every warlock is going to have 2d6 extra blast damage from a greater version of their damage ability. They are going to have at least a few single use or multi use per day items that grant quicken spell like ability (not a terribly expensive feat to build in an item) and they are going to be able to custom set their damage type to whatever the monster is weak against usally doubling their damage. Not only that they are making touch attacks which are horribly easy to make compaired to that rogue or fighter having to make standard melle attacks, which with hideiously high ac, concealment, miss chance, and a host of other defensive abilities are specifically designed to counter. next rogues are going to be burning 1k gp per day on your system just to be prepared, and only be able to attack once every other round since they are going to have to cast a spell to remain useful (and lets not forget that spell wand can be destoryed, stolen, or dipelled for several rounds with a simple 3rd level spell all demons get at will) next the warlock will be flying, invisible, and have blindsense far enough out that whatever he is hitting shouldn't be able to find him to return fire. combine that with his ability to do area damage and warlock starts to look alot better. so dont tell me the warlock is weak, because i have seen how strong they can get and they can hold their own against wizards, clerics and sorcs on sustained damage output. very few can surpass those levels (frenzied berzerker, and artficer being the two most notable) Eldritch Blast is, at best, 9d6 per round. That's 31.5 damage. That's less than the amount that a melee character does per hit. assuming your target is a kitty with no defenses sure, a warror will hit ever time, rogues will always hit and will always be able to sneak attack. but if your target was something approprate for a high level encounter suddenly the warrior is going to have issues hitting, the rogue will be unable to sneak attack due to immunities or concealment or range, and everyone i going to be struggling to come up with some way to adapt their tactics. meanwhile the warlock can stick with the blast every round approach and take sizable chunks off the enemy HP total untill it dies or someone else figures out how to help. now i think i have made a point to show a few ways warlocks are a very versitle and powerful class... your takes everything a warlock can do, and then gives them everything they can't do, and takes any and all restrictions off the class. again, its a powergamers paradice, but i don't see this making its way into any sort of normal game, or even an abnormal one. In fact this seems suited mostly to young teenage males that want to rock big numbers and kill things after school, and while that might have a place in the dnd universe, a replacment for warlock this isn't.
Maraxus 02-26-07, 09:42 PM	This makes me laught. The Warlock sucks and so I make a class, that, by spending 15 levels on the way to level 20... Grand you a 15d6 range-touch-attack!!! Damage reduction 7 Is accompanied by a Glabrezu or Gelugon or similar major evil outsider (and only if "level" in this case means "class level") But most of all, has unbelievable powerful spheres. I don't even want to start with the fact, that no player should be able to cast time stop at will. Incendiary Cloud and Force Cage are mean enough at will. Or Miracle as a spell-like ability. At all! Not for Players (of cause, this could still be houseruled by the DM... but) Dominate Monster and Dominate Person at will, without any limit on the number of HDs controlled. A lot could be done, if expert access get's forbitten. But even then, only take Carnage and Pyre once each and suddenly your Eldrich Blast pierces Fire Resistence and deals vile damage!!! No, this class does not work at all.
Realms of Chaos 02-26-07, 10:13 PM	In general, I am not a fan of K's work as it is based on a couple of premises I find faulty. 1. one character should be able to take on a creature of their CR. In the real game, it is a team of 4 characters who should be able to do so. 2. No matter how big of an ability is placed at 20th level, the player will never actually get that far without multiclassing. 3. Rewriting rules for proficiencies, armors and shields, and magic is justified even when monsters get no comparable boosts.
Leress 02-26-07, 10:19 PM	It think that this class can be evaluated without all the insults slung around. In general, I am not a fan of K's work as it is based on a couple of premises I find faulty. 1. one character should be able to take on a creature of their CR. In the real game, it is a team of 4 characters who should be able to do so. That's strange he always said that a class should stand a 50% chance of going against a creature of equal CR. 2. No matter how big of an ability is placed at 20th level, the player will never actually get that far without multiclassing. He has presented class that are 20 levels long. 3. Rewriting rules for proficiencies, armors and shields, and magic is justified even when monsters get no comparable boosts. I think they are working on some of the monster feats.
Kresalak 02-26-07, 11:03 PM	But even then, only take Carnage and Pyre once each and suddenly your Eldrich Blast pierces Fire Resistence and deals vile damage!!! This is the only part that is remotely useful. Note how Eldritch Blast is a Supernatural ability. Look at what Pyre and Carnage do. See how the two don't interact at all.
Bhaal006 02-26-07, 11:37 PM	So explain how you can be evil without being evil, cause i think i missed it somewhere in your not-explanation.
Maraxus 02-27-07, 12:25 AM	Kresalak: Oh, sorry, looks like that part I made a mistake and confused Spell-like and Supernatural. What about the rest? Expert access being totally overpowered to begin with, and likewise the Extreamly strong companion gained at level 11 (you could really mention "class" or "character" level here. I'd guess it's class level, but your "Call Fiends" ability is based on character level, too). Bhaal: Not every single creature of the [Evil] Subtype has to be evil. It just means, they are born evil to a race spiritually linked to the pure essence of evil. Yes, that is really, evil but 1 in a Million can overcome that, usually through curses of opposite alignment (you know the helmet), or events likely involving high servants of the purest, holyest gods. Other players might insist, that thier character just saw at some point, that evil does not pay off. ;)
Leress 02-27-07, 01:11 AM	So explain how you can be evil without being evil, cause i think i missed it somewhere in your not-explanation. Because giving up your soul for power is not an evil act. It all matters on what you do with the power that is given to you. Summoning demons is not an evil act nor is getting the evil subtype.
navar100 02-27-07, 01:32 AM	It would have been nice if warlocks got bonus invocations based on charisma. It would have been nice if invocations worked like every other spell-like ability that existed before. It would have been nice if warlocks got a bit more than 12 invocations totals. It would have been nice if eldritch blast was an attack that benefits from BAB iteration but if you applied an essence and/or shape it became a standard action. It would have been nice if eldritch blast did not stunt in damage increase at the higher levels. All those things I would have really liked for my warlock to have. However, I love my warlock as is anyway. It doesn't suck at all.
danielinthewolvesden 02-27-07, 03:16 AM	Since the current Warlock from Complete Arcane doesn't work at all, Bzzzt. Wrong. Go here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436 Where the Warlock - by a significant amount- was rated "most fun". And, was rated in the upper half power wise. So, it does "work" thus your postulate is incorrect and your "fix" unnessesary. Rename it, do not come out attacking one of the most loved classes around, and maybe we will listen. Until them- sorry.:noway: :nonono: shamus_the_daft- you say Eldrich Blast has been erratted?
Leress 02-27-07, 04:55 AM	Bzzzt. Wrong. Go here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436 Where the Warlock - by a significant amount- was rated "most fun". And, was rated in the upper half power wise. So, it does "work" thus your postulate is incorrect and your "fix" unnessesary. Rename it, do not come out attacking one of the most loved classes around, and maybe we will listen. Until them- sorry.:noway: :nonono: shamus_the_daft- you say Eldrich Blast has been erratted? Umm that is not a significant amount of people. 30-ish people that nowhere near enough to draw an accurate conclusion. For some people it doesn't work and this "fix" is this poster's answer to it. Now just because you don't like it doesn't mean that this "fix" isn't needed. This knee-jerk reaction and tell the OP to change the name is not called really called for since the reason why it has the name of warlock is to replace said class. Maybe you should listen as well since it appears that you are not listening to the OP and not plug your ears as soon as someone say that they think a class isn't good. Please add to conversation like why you don't like the class or why you don't. Show flaws in the actual class write up and critique those. Don't use the blanket statement "It's popular so there is no need to fix it"
Kresalak 02-27-07, 08:01 AM	Kresalak: Oh, sorry, looks like that part I made a mistake and confused Spell-like and Supernatural. What about the rest? Expert access being totally overpowered to begin with, and likewise the Extreamly strong companion gained at level 11 (you could really mention "class" or "character" level here. I'd guess it's class level, but your "Call Fiends" ability is based on character level, too). I suggest bringing that up with Frank and K, since it's their system. And you know what? The 11th level ability is weaker than a feat. It gives you Leadership, but you don't get any followers, and your cohort has to be a fiend and can only have levels in a Fiend class. danielinthewolvesden: Your "consensus" is worthless. You didn't get a good statistical representation, and furthermore, the opinion of the masses has no bearing on mechanical balance. A poll is data, not a conclusion.
Xantos000 02-27-07, 11:10 AM	I really like the warlock class: however, if you really do think that it is underpowered, allow the warlock to project multiple rays if it takes a full round action.
Squirrelloid 02-27-07, 11:22 AM	Hey Kres, I like how your Warlock looks and its welcome to play in my games. (Of course, we're about half converted to Frank and K's work at this point). There's only one thing that worries me - the cohort power is based on CR, and i seem to recall wonky things in the way creatures with mid-high "natural" CRs and class levels calculated their total CR, which may allow you to tweak the system for more power than intended. Of course, I haven't actually reviewed those rules recently, so I could be remembering old (even 3e) rules or misremembering them.
LordArchaon 02-27-07, 11:40 AM	Umm it think you have that wrong Oops, the problem wasn't about bypassing SR... Was also about AoOs...
Ozzymandias 02-27-07, 11:51 AM	For what it's worth, here's my view, and possibly some advice: The flavor of the class is nifty. The use of Spheres is cool as well. I glanced briefly at K's work, and I like what I see. What I don't like is the idea of any PC (or even NPC, for that matter) getting access to some of these spells as spell-like abilities usable at will. Time Stop? Forcecage? Mass Harm? Miracle? We know that the standard warlock gets SLA usable at will, but he gets a small number (12) as opposed to a slightly greater number (20), and an individual use of one SLA is less powerful than a spell of comparable level. The balance is that a wizard/cleric/druid gets limited spell use each day, while a warlock can keep on going. Consider this: why would anyone want to take any sphere other than Bubbles? (An aside, I find that to be a rather amusing name for a demonic sphere.) Look, I have Forcecage, Time Stop and Temporal Stasis at will. I'm happy. I stop time and place my enemies inside cages, then stop time and place my enemies inside cages, then stop time... and I keep on doing it! That is one example of the abuse possible. I have found that the warlock has the potential to be abusive with its power. It's not weak in the hands of a clever player. However, I haven't found any class to be weak in such a case (with the exception of the fighter, but that might be because my players won't touch that class beyond a simple dip for feats). My suggestion is to seriously consider ways to improve the warlock without changing it outright. If, however, you plan to utilize spheres (which isn't a bad idea) I'd suggest finding a way to prevent outright abuse of overly powerful spells as SLA usable at will.
MerlintheTuna 02-27-07, 12:26 PM	I suggest bringing that up with Frank and K, since it's their system. And you know what? The 11th level ability is weaker than the most powerful feat in the game, and the only one that the PHB specifically mentions requires DM approval.Fixed that for you.
Kresalak 02-27-07, 12:38 PM	There's only one thing that worries me - the cohort power is based on CR, and i seem to recall wonky things in the way creatures with mid-high "natural" CRs and class levels calculated their total CR, which may allow you to tweak the system for more power than intended. Of course, I haven't actually reviewed those rules recently, so I could be remembering old (even 3e) rules or misremembering them. You're supposed to use the Races of War monsters-as-characters method, meaning that at level 11 you could get a Succubus True Fiend 3 or a Tiefling Conduit 10/True Fiend 1 or whatever. Basically, the creature's base CR, plus its class levels, minus 1.
Maraxus 02-27-07, 01:18 PM	I suggest bringing that up with Frank and K, since it's their system. And you know what? The 11th level ability is weaker than a feat. It gives you Leadership, but you don't get any followers, and your cohort has to be a fiend and can only have levels in a Fiend class. danielinthewolvesden: Your "consensus" is worthless. You didn't get a good statistical representation, and furthermore, the opinion of the masses has no bearing on mechanical balance. A poll is data, not a conclusion. As far as I have read the sphere-stuff, it's okay, as long as given into the hands of a DM, who does not think, that his job is to win by killing the PCs. It should, however not fall into the hands of players. About the fient-cohort: If it's supposed to be weaker then leadership make it based on ECL, not CR. And the consensus it not worthless. A poll is data, and a conclusion can be drawn from it. The conclusion is, that the warlock is good and balanced, if you know, how to play (and build) it. Beefing it up like that will ruin the balance in the other way, then you experience it right now.
Leress 02-27-07, 04:04 PM	And the consensus it not worthless. A poll is data, and a conclusion can be drawn from it. The conclusion is, that the warlock is good and balanced, if you know, how to play (and build) it. Beefing it up like that will ruin the balance in the other way, then you experience it right now. But the amount that submitted to that pol in not nearly enough to give an accurate conclusion. (That's like asking 30-40 New Yorkers do they like ketchup and making a conclusion off of that)
Nitan 02-27-07, 05:32 PM	And the consensus it not worthless. A poll is data, and a conclusion can be drawn from it. The conclusion is, that the warlock is good and balanced, if you know, how to play (and build) it. Beefing it up like that will ruin the balance in the other way, then you experience it right now. You can draw conclusions but you really shouldn't. If you don't understand why...well...I'm sure someone else will explain. Here's a hint though, it's much more then the small number of people surveyed.
Maraxus 02-27-07, 06:39 PM	Dahh! I did not say, the pool sais the Warlock is good, therefor he is. For example, I'd say, the fighter is much worse positioned, than he should be. I base this on the big number of "OMG, teh fighter suxor, I make it badder!!!" * so that easy influeceable people actually begin to get condition to reply "the fighter is bad", without even thinking about it. However, ask yourself, why people rate the Warlock good. Actually, this does not even need a pool with a good average value. Even if 1 person said: "The Warlock is great!" you should consider, why he said it. The diffrence is, that the answer to one person can likely be: "He does not understand the rules." or "His dm has a very unusual mastering-style, that exclusively plays to class X's favor." or "he is just a Troll who allways sais the opposite of the general opinion, no matter what it is." But with two or three persons, it get's more convincing and not very much more, and those "rare exception" reasons don't work anymore. So, unless you have a better idea, I would considder, that those peoples are right. * = There are also good fighter ... changes ... , but their number alone would not make such a hysteria on the boards. Plus, there are not enough "Paladin revised", "Ranger revised", "monk revised" or "Barbarien revised" threads, and definitly not enough about Hexblade, Swashbucker, Marshal, Ninja, etc.
Kresalak 02-27-07, 07:13 PM	I really don't need to know other people's opinions. The vast majority of the users of this board do not know a thing about game balance. They run around with Wizards who prepare Fireball, they think the Fighter is a good class, etc. All the poll tells me is that people think the Warlock is good, not that it is-I need math for that. If you look at what a Warlock can do, you won't see anything. They get 12 at will abilities, the best of which are about equal to 4th-6th level spells. They also get an attack that does so little damage it might not exist, and if they want to ever use that attack at higher levels (SR, range) they need to waste some of their 12 only abilities. They also get some stuff to help them use items, but unlike the other item guys (Rogue, Artificer) none of their other abilities are worthwhile at all, and so "UMD as a class skill" and Skill Mastery aren't enough to make them competitive.
LordArchaon 02-28-07, 11:58 AM	Kresalak, you didn't answer Ozzymandias, who made a REALLY GOOD point about spheres. Don't you think that Time Stop at will could be "a little" GAME BREAKING?
Seerow 02-28-07, 12:13 PM	It's pointless to argue. He's one of K's fanboys, and will defend the idea that everything K posts is in fact balanced and perfect to his last breath, even if you COULD prove him wrong. Personally, I think Spheres are a great idea, but should have a different implimentation. Rather than ALL SLAs from a sphere progressing equally, they should progress based on their level as well as the number of times you've taken the Sphere. Like, you take it once, you have the first 3 SLAs 1/day. You take it twice, you have the first 3 SLAs 3/day, the second 3 1/day. You take it three times, you have the first 3 unlimited use, the second 3 3/day, and the last 3 1/day It could be a possibility to allow it to be taken 4 times to allow for 3/day of the top 3 SLAs, but I don't believe you should ever get unlimited use of 7th-9th level spells pre epic. I don't care who you are. I understand K made his system for the Fiends, and Fiends tend to have awesome SLAs at will. Greater Teleport being the most common one. But really, giving away 9th level spells unlimited times per day is... absurd. Just think of how much trouble 9th level spells ALREADY cause. Wasn't K's initial thing to bring everyone else up to par with casters, all game abuses included? If so why are we entirely destroying game balance by introducing something that does what casters do, but BETTER? "But Seerow, it's not broken because they have to take spells as a set, so they don't get to have everything they ever wanted!" ********. The Bubble Domain was already pointed out as one that's so awesome you don't need much else. But I'm sure if I went back and looked again I'd find others. I really don't need to know other people's opinions. The vast majority of the users of this board do not know a thing about game balance. They run around with Wizards who prepare Fireball, they think the Fighter is a good class, etc. All the poll tells me is that people think the Warlock is good, not that it is-I need math for that. If that's your opinion, seriously just stop posting. You KNOW I'm not like that, and I still think you're dead wrong here. Just because most people don't optimize, and do stupid stuff does not mean any opinion you encounter contrary to your own is wrong. Just because the game is already broken does not mean that you have to make it MORE broken to compete.
Kresalak 02-28-07, 12:39 PM	It's pointless to argue. He's one of K's fanboys, and will defend the idea that everything K posts is in fact balanced and perfect to his last breath, even if you COULD prove him wrong. No, I won't defend it because it's not my mechanic. I'm going to quote myself here: I suggest bringing that up with Frank and K, since it's their system. If that's your opinion, seriously just stop posting. You KNOW I'm not like that, and I still think you're dead wrong here. Just because most people don't optimize, and do stupid stuff does not mean any opinion you encounter contrary to your own is wrong. Just because the game is already broken does not mean that you have to make it MORE broken to compete. That's not what I said. I said I would not base my work on polls taken of the community at large, because the community at large does not actually know how the game works. I never said my opinion was right, I said that I need math to design things, because math is objective.
Kursk 02-28-07, 01:38 PM	Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. I stopped there. If you bargain away your soul to an evil outerplanes power you are going to be "evil" in the D&D sense.
Maraxus 02-28-07, 01:39 PM	I really don't need to know other people's opinions. The vast majority of the users of this board do not know a thing about game balance. They run around with Wizards who prepare Fireball, they think the Fighter is a good class, etc. All the poll tells me is that people think the Warlock is good, not that it is-I need math for that. If you look at what a Warlock can do, you won't see anything. They get 12 at will abilities, the best of which are about equal to 4th-6th level spells. They also get an attack that does so little damage it might not exist, and if they want to ever use that attack at higher levels (SR, range) they need to waste some of their 12 only abilities. They also get some stuff to help them use items, but unlike the other item guys (Rogue, Artificer) none of their other abilities are worthwhile at all, and so "UMD as a class skill" and Skill Mastery aren't enough to make them competitive. Please don't reply to me, without reading, what I wrote! However, the part about the wizards, how prepare fireballs and the fighters, really made me laugh. ... And asking myself, if you really are real, or just kidding. The general opinion on the board is, that the fighter is worse then the commoner and that wizards should never ever prepare any damageing spells, what both is wrong, but I see, how simple minds can't see the fault in logic terms like: :rolleyes: "The arcane spells most useful in many combat situations are not the damaging spells, therefor arcane casters should never prepare damaging spells." -and- "The high level fighter has less combat power then the high level fully buffed Cleric or buffed and wild-shaped Druid, therefor the Fighter totally sucks and should never be played in any circumstances by anyone." However, thinking: "Everybody else has no idea about balance, only I have." might be the best definition of 'ignorace' * I have seen lately. Plus the attitude of "...and I won't even consider thier oppinions, or I might get infected by their stupidity." is a good protection. (*: Before calling me a troll, remember that ignorance is simple the noun to "to ignore" and ignoring everybody else is what you do by your ownstatement) Oh any "you won't see anything" and then "except for ... and ... and ... (falsly reduced in impact on the game) and ... and ... (again, drastically ignoring the power)." for me, those thinks they get is something!
Leress 02-28-07, 02:46 PM	I stopped there. If you bargain away your soul to an evil outerplanes power you are going to be "evil" in the D&D sense. http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=684 http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688 These will probably help explain what the OP is talking about with bargaining your soul for power isn't 100% evil. Since D&D generally gives a black and white picture of good and evil.
Kresalak 02-28-07, 03:00 PM	However, thinking: "Everybody else has no idea about balance, only I have." might be the best definition of 'ignorace' * I have seen lately. Plus the attitude of "...and I won't even consider thier oppinions, or I might get infected by their stupidity." is a good protection. I guess the whole thing where I said that I need math to determine balance isn't getting through. One last thing. I will state that no, I do not think the Bubbles sphere is balanced. I also don't think Mordenkainen's Disjunction is balanced. Does that mean that if I write a class that advances arcane spellcasting I have to state that they can't learn Disjunction? Or perhaps it would be better to address the root cause; i.e. the spell itself.
Seerow 02-28-07, 03:10 PM	No, I won't defend it because it's not my mechanic. I'm going to quote myself here: It may not be your mechanic, but you ARE using it. You took their mechanic, presented it in a class, and insist it is a good class. What we are telling you is it isn't balanced. What you have posted, by drawing upon a fundamentally flawed mechanic as the chasis for your class, cannot be balanced. This does not have to be so. It is fully within your rights, as your class, to edit things as you see fit. If you're smart, you'll do such editing with the domains as a whole. By blindly sticking the mechanic into your class, and your games, and keeping them there, despite you admitting they're broken, and other people feeling the same, you're inadvertently defending Frank and K's work, by continuing to use it the way they have it until they change it, -because- you believe they have it perfect. If you honestly believe their system has flaws, change the flaws. Don't just adopt them blindly. That's not what I said. I said I would not base my work on polls taken of the community at large, because the community at large does not actually know how the game works. I never said my opinion was right, I said that I need math to design things, because math is objective. That I can agree with. Though math and common sense need to go hand in hand, I agree that the community at large has its share of idiots, and any poll taken involving them isn't a good measure. I've complained about Daniel's poll most everywher else he's posted it as 'proof' of class balance. I overlooked it here because it seemed you were persuing a different point.
Kursk 02-28-07, 03:11 PM	http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=684 http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688 These will probably help explain what the OP is talking about with bargaining your soul for power isn't 100% evil. Since D&D generally gives a black and white picture of good and evil. I'm well aware of the alignment meanings in D&D. Bargaining away your SOUL to an evil outsider so he gives you power would be EVIL. Not really any way around that one...
Leress 02-28-07, 03:22 PM	I'm well aware of the alignment meanings in D&D. Bargaining away your SOUL to an evil outsider so he gives you power would be EVIL. Not really any way around that one... It maybe an evil act but it doesn't make you evil.
Kursk 02-28-07, 05:15 PM	It maybe an evil act but it doesn't make you evil. Yeah, I guess consigning your soul to an afterlife on the lower planes in return for power makes you good. :rolleyes:
Seerow 02-28-07, 05:18 PM	Yeah, I guess consigning your soul to an afterlife on the lower planes in return for power makes you good. :rolleyes: Say you sold your soul to a Devil because you got word that there was a Demon invasion coming soon, and it was your only chance to get the power necessary to make a difference in said invasion. Yes you're dealing with evil forces, but you are doing it for what you percieve as a greater good, and are just willing to take the penalties associated with it. Would you call such a character evil?
Kursk 02-28-07, 05:25 PM	Say you sold your soul to a Devil because you got word that there was a Demon invasion coming soon, and it was your only chance to get the power necessary to make a difference in said invasion. Yes you're dealing with evil forces, but you are doing it for what you percieve as a greater good, and are just willing to take the penalties associated with it. Would you call such a character evil? In the context of the D&D cosmos, yes. In D&d the end doesn't necessarily the means.
Seerow 02-28-07, 05:28 PM	In the context of the D&D cosmos, yes. In D&d the end doesn't necessarily the means. Which is why they linked you to the gaming den, where I presume they picked a couple of K or Frank's rants on the subject of alignment, (I didnt actually click, I avoid that place when I can) which would show the basis that he's working from, which is actually significantly different from core D&D. If you like the rest of the class and the alignment is your only problem, just make it require any evil when you use it.
Kursk 02-28-07, 05:31 PM	Which is why they linked you to the gaming den, where I presume they picked a couple of K or Frank's rants on the subject of alignment, (I didnt actually click, I avoid that place when I can) which would show the basis that he's working from, which is actually significantly different from core D&D. If you like the rest of the class and the alignment is your only problem, just make it require any evil when you use it. I would require it to be evil under those circumstances. I don't argue about non-core as there is no point of reference.
Seerow 02-28-07, 05:34 PM	That's an understandable possition in most cases, but if you're using something that's clearly not core (as it's homebrew) and that homebrew material is made based on other homebrew material, you either have to accept that, or modify it to work with core.
Kursk 02-28-07, 05:37 PM	That's an understandable possition in most cases, but if you're using something that's clearly not core (as it's homebrew) and that homebrew material is made based on other homebrew material, you either have to accept that, or modify it to work with core. Exactly. That's most non-core that comes into my game has to get reworked before.
Seerow 02-28-07, 05:39 PM	Okay, I'm just saying, it's stupid to argue about it if you're going to change it anyway, and you know they're not because you're using totally different standards. So drop it and go back to discussing the class itself.
Kresalak 02-28-07, 05:43 PM	Yeah, I guess consigning your soul to an afterlife on the lower planes in return for power makes you good. :rolleyes: When you get to level 15, though, you become an Outsider, which means your soul and body become one. Essentially, your old soul is no longer you, and you grow a new one. Or you could have the Warlock fight his patron to get it back. Of course, few people ever reach level 15, so it's generally a good investment for a fiend. And if worse comes to worse, they don't lose anything. I've intentionally left the roleplay portions vague so that each player can make his own story without too many restrictions.
Kursk 02-28-07, 05:43 PM	Okay, I'm just saying, it's stupid to argue about it if you're going to change it anyway, and you know they're not because you're using totally different standards. So drop it and go back to discussing the class itself. I thought alignment had s/g to do with the class. He asked for opinions. If he didn't want opinions based on the RAW then he should say so at the outset.
Leress 02-28-07, 06:05 PM	Which is why they linked you to the gaming den, where I presume they picked a couple of K or Frank's rants on the subject of alignment, (I didnt actually click, I avoid that place when I can) which would show the basis that he's working from, which is actually significantly different from core D&D. If you like the rest of the class and the alignment is your only problem, just make it require any evil when you use it. That is exactly why I posted the links, to help show where OP was coming from with his view on alignment. I didn't say you where wrong, just that under the rules set that this class is under it would not make the character evil.
Seerow 03-07-07, 07:43 PM	So, Kreselak, did you give up on this?
Kresalak 03-07-07, 08:01 PM	No, it's just that no one has posted since the alignment thing, so I don't have anything else to respond to. Here are the Spheres that are bad for game balance: Expert access to Bubbles past level 13, Frostbite at level 1, but that's because Shivering Touch is stupid broken, Heresy at 17 because unlimited Gate even 1/day rapes the game, and Violation at 17 because of Gate. Gate can be fixed by limiting the summoned monsters to a CR of level-2, but Shivering Touch, Forcecage, and Time Stop are much harder to fix. But I don't really know what Bubbles is supposed to do, since it's not something I generally see Fiends as having anything to do with.
Seerow 03-07-07, 08:14 PM	I gave you a perfectly reasonable way to limit the power of spheres, while not destroying what your warlock is capable in my first post. Seriously, does it matter if you can't use 7th-9th level spells at will? You still get them 1 or 3 times a day, and you get everything else at will. Don't just think "Well, this spell might not break the game entirely..." think "Why on earth would I want to play a Sorcerer when I could be a Warlock15/True Fiend5, have 6 9th level spells I can cast at will all day long, 30 spells total I can cast nonstop, a free summon ability, better BAB, damage reduction, and other **** too? Oh, my spheres are themed? Woe is me, woe is me"
Kresalak 03-07-07, 08:24 PM	Honestly, I'm not sure. Sorcerers are kind of gimped at every level. A Wizard can get 6 different 9th level spells 1/day, which is slightly less than what a Warlock/True Fiend could get (he would have 7 spheres, so basic to 7), but he'd have more spells total and can switch them, as well as having access to the entire list. A Warlock/Conduit could get Expert access to 3 spheres, which is 3 9th level spells at will, which can be better or worse than a Wizard depending on which spells you and he have. It won't match a Wizard who uses Shapechange to get a huge list of at will Su abilities without abusing Shapechange to get at will Su abilities that break the game (turning into a Medusa for Petrifying Gaze as opposed to turning into a Zodar for Wish). The thing is, I don't see any problem with the Sphere system as is, only with a few specific Spheres because of the spells they give.
Seerow 03-07-07, 08:31 PM	Honestly, I'm not sure. Sorcerers are kind of gimped at every level. A Wizard can get 6 different 9th level spells 1/day, which is slightly less than what a Warlock/True Fiend could get (he would have 7 spheres, so basic to 7), but he'd have more spells total and can switch them, as well as having access to the entire list. A Warlock/Conduit could get Expert access to 3 spheres, which is 3 9th level spells at will, which can be better or worse than a Wizard depending on which spells you and he have. It won't match a Wizard who uses Shapechange to get a huge list of at will Su abilities without abusing Shapechange to get at will Su abilities that break the game (turning into a Medusa for Petrifying Gaze as opposed to turning into a Zodar for Wish). The thing is, I don't see any problem with the Sphere system as is, only with a few specific Spheres because of the spells they give. Honestly, if people only got basic access to spheres, I wouldn't care. 6 1/day abilities I can deal with. Even TWELVE 1/day abilities I can deal with (Which shich what you're really dealing with, you get one 9th level spells at both 17th and 19th level) It's the Expert Access where you're getting 3 spheres, which is SIX 9th level spells at will that scares me. Even if it were only the 3 9th level spells, that's still too many for me. That's still 3 unlimited 9th level spells. 9th level spells at will is NOT something you hand out like candy. Wizard's 9th level spells are plenty powerful, even if you don't have Gate/Shapechange cheese. Giving any number of 9th level spells with no limit is beyond absurd.
Kresalak 03-07-07, 08:38 PM	These are the level 9 spells available through Spheres: Plague of Undeath (not sure about this one, I don't know the spell) Time Stop (I agree that this is bad) Implosion Mass Harm (might be 8th, I forget) Frostfell? Fymbul Winter? Wail of the Banshee Implosion again Travel version of Gate Storm of Vengeance Meteor Swarm Iceburg? Gate (bad) Miracle (bad; revision scheduled for Tome of Virtue) Gate for Fire creatures (semi-bad) Storm of (Fiery) Vengeance Mind Rape and Programmed Amnesia, which are basically the same spell Programmed Amnesia again Astral Projection Meteor Swarm again Genesis (story effect, you only need this like once ever) Weird Wail of the Banshee again Shapechange to venomous creatures Calling version of Gate (bad) Mind Rape again Reaving Dispel Absorption (I don't know this spell)
LordArchaon 03-08-07, 09:30 AM	I think you're already finding out a solution to the problem: limit the Warlock sphere selection to a few of them (surely excluding Bubbles). Loosing versatility may balance the big number of at will 7th-9th spells.
Ozzymandias 03-08-07, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Kresalak: The class ends at 15th level, at which point the Warlock gets 15d6 three times, which is 45d6. At this point a Rogue can TWF using vials of Alchemists Fire/Frost/Acid for 1d6+8d6 six times per round, ending up with an impressive 54d6, all as Touch attacks. I'd like to redirect the discussion back to this comparison. First, as this is a homebrew creation, I understand that you have your own style for running the game. These are my opinions based on how I play my games. I don't think a rogue can apply Sneak Attack damage to grenade-like weapons. Thrown, yes; grenade, no. I say this based on concept: can I use a grenade (literally) to apply precision based damage? Granted, the rules may not say that you can't, but we're not working with RAW here. Not directly, anyway. So to begin, you're using a bad point for comparison. Second, a wand of Gravestrike doesn't work. A wand of any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't work, as a wand requires a standard action to activate. Again, a house rule may eliminate that, or one may carry scrolls (combined with Quick Draw to get them out fast enough). Okay, there are ways to make this work, but consider: Dark template (Tome of Magic) Whisper Gnome (or other small creature) Rogue/Scout (with feats that combine the two key abilities of the two classes) Feats that make it harder for you to be discovered Magic items focusing on hiding and sneaking Magic weapons that take advantage of the characters abilities Spells that improve the characters ability to deal damage Total damage: 11d6 sneak attack, 5d6 bonus damage (spell effect), 7d6 skirmish = 23d6 Total attack: target's AC denied Dexterity and armor (spell effect); able to SA constructs or undead (spell effect); two attacks each round (with Manyshot) 46d6 damage with attacks that are sure to hit But this can be done only with a very specific build. This is comparable to the revised warlock dealing 45d6 every round, with (possibly) the third attack not hitting the target. So, this new class is as good as a fully optimized build? This is the problem that I see with your approach. Why have you designed the class such that it is (on average) as good as, or better, than a character who's maxed out? Are you planning on redesigning the other base classes so that they, too, are comparable? Also, there was mention somewhere in the posts of characters not usually making it to 15th level. Again, I think this is a comment based on a personal style of gaming. Granted I can relate: no PC has managed to get past 10th level in my home game. But I have played in and run games where the PCs are higher than that, either by design or by virtue of lasting long enough. It does happen, and I feel that the class should be designed with that idea in mind. If you don't, then you're forcing the other classes to feel shortchanged by comparison, and you may find your gaming friends requesting revisions of those classes in order to make them 'balanced' with this new class, which would result in more work. I hope these comments and questions have helped you flesh out the mechanics of this class some more. I've always felt that the warlock is an awesome concept, and that it needs more support. (It's definitely better than the sorcerer in execution.)
Seerow 03-08-07, 02:23 PM	Actually the build you give is doing it as a standard action. If you consider instead a Scout/Rogue doing what you suggest, with Rapid Shot, or Two Weapon Fighting, you get 4-6 attacks (depending on which you're looking at) or 7 if you're two weapon fighting and rapid shotting. Since you optimized it up to 23d6 per attack, we're looking at anywhere from 92d6 to 121d6 per round using a full round action. Which flat out blows the warlock out of the water. A moderately optimized rogue using just two weapon fighting and nothing else gets 66d6 per round. And honestly, I don't care. It's **** like Mass Harm, Implosion, Gate, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Miracle, Mind Rape, and Time stop at will I'm concerned about. Sure, I couldn't care less about say Meteor Swarm. All that does really is let this warlock use his standard action to produce more damage than his eldritch blast, while his full round action is better. But any 9th level spell that isn't wholly defensive (ie Foresight and the like) or straight Damage (Meteor Swarm) really isn't acceptable at will. Under ANY circumstance.
Kresalak 03-08-07, 03:15 PM	I don't think a rogue can apply Sneak Attack damage to grenade-like weapons. Thrown, yes; grenade, no. I say this based on concept: can I use a grenade (literally) to apply precision based damage? Granted, the rules may not say that you can't, but we're not working with RAW here. Not directly, anyway. So to begin, you're using a bad point for comparison. No, the rules say you add Sneak Attack to ranged attacks if they otherwise qualify. Grenade-like weapons are ranged touch attacks, a subset of ranged attacks. If they qualify, they deal extra SA damage. The splash damage, however, is not added to, since there's no attack roll involved. Second, a wand of Gravestrike doesn't work. A wand of any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't work, as a wand requires a standard action to activate. Again, a house rule may eliminate that, or one may carry scrolls (combined with Quick Draw to get them out fast enough). Okay, there are ways to make this work, but consider: No, the standard for magic items is that they have the activation time of the spell, unless otherwise stated in the description. This is from the DMG, and the only thing that can change that is errata. But this can be done only with a very specific build. This is comparable to the revised warlock dealing 45d6 every round, with (possibly) the third attack not hitting the target. So, this new class is as good as a fully optimized build? This is the problem that I see with your approach. Why have you designed the class such that it is (on average) as good as, or better, than a character who's maxed out? Are you planning on redesigning the other base classes so that they, too, are comparable? No, I made the damage dealing capability slightly worse than that of a Rogue with two-weapon fighting. Not a fully optimized one, just one with a simple and common tactic. Of course, the damage is also Fire damage, so you're rarely going to do that much. Also, there was mention somewhere in the posts of characters not usually making it to 15th level. Again, I think this is a comment based on a personal style of gaming. Granted I can relate: no PC has managed to get past 10th level in my home game. But I have played in and run games where the PCs are higher than that, either by design or by virtue of lasting long enough. It does happen, and I feel that the class should be designed with that idea in mind. If you don't, then you're forcing the other classes to feel shortchanged by comparison, and you may find your gaming friends requesting revisions of those classes in order to make them 'balanced' with this new class, which would result in more work. The class is designed to hold up in the higher levels, but I can't really make any promises because high levels games are crazy-go-nuts.
CrimsonDeath 03-08-07, 06:07 PM	Frostfell? Fymbul Winter? Absorption (I don't know this spell) Frostfell and Fimbulwinter are from the setting-book Frostburn. Frostfell is one 20' cube/level (shapeable). Within, the temperature is decreased by two temperature bands (a climate mechanic described in the book) for one hour per level. If the temperature is decreased below freezing, it starts snowing, granting concealment (total beyond 5'). Anyone in the area when the spell is cast must make a Fort save or turn to ice (as Flesh to Ice). On a successful save, such creatures take 1d6/level frostburn damage (cold damage that won't heal naturally in a cold environment). My neanderthal sublime chord is going to be taking that one. Fimbulwinter drops the temperature by two temperature bands for one year in an area of one mile per caster level. I forget where Absorbtion is. It's like Spell Turning, but instead of reflecting spells, it absorbs them. You can use absorbed spell levels to cast spells you know or have prepared. There's a thread on the CO board using that, twinned Celerity, and twinned heightened Magic Missiles to crank out infinite damage per round. As for optimizing the variant warlock... Why not give him the 2WF tree and Rapid Shot too? The blast is an "attack" action, so you should be able to take such an action with either hand, and it's a ranged attack so Rapid Shot should apply. Add five levels of any full-BAB class and you have your fourth iterative by level 20. Put that build on a halfling with maxed-out Dex (you can get 36 by then). With 2WF and Rapid Shot, that's 26/26/26/21/21/16/16/11 on a full attack. Those are touch attacks. They're not sneak attacks, so you don't need surprise, and it works on constructs, plants, and undead. They're Supernatural, so they ignore SR and don't provoke AOOs. Assuming they all hit (the same assumption you made for your rogue and his acid), that's 120d6 fire damage (420 average, and the most appropriate comparison, since your rogue's damage has an energy type too), or 104d6 damage that's half fire/half untyped (364 average), or 88d6 untyped (308 average)-- any of which beats your rogue with his mere 66d6 (by that level), and I'm not even that great an optimizer. Of course, if we were really comparing with the rogue, the variant warlock would have to be within 30', so Point Blank Shot would trigger for another 8 damage (as if we care at this point). And he can do this all day, every day, without spending one red copper. And that's *before* we even add the SLAs he gets from his Spheres. I want to make this clear: I'm not telling you not to use your variant warlock, or that you absolutely have to refine, alter, or scrap it. But I won't be using it because any halfway-competent character optimizer can break it by doing things you never intended but which weren't explicitly forbidden, and I like the CArc warlock just fine the way it is. If it works for you, though, go ahead and use it. It's a game, and the point is to have fun.
Kresalak 03-08-07, 08:05 PM	As for optimizing the variant warlock... Why not give him the 2WF tree and Rapid Shot too? The blast is an "attack" action, so you should be able to take such an action with either hand, and it's a ranged attack so Rapid Shot should apply. Err, for the same reason you can't use TWF with a greatsword? Because you only have one? You kind of actually need two weapons to fight with two weapons. I really wish people would read the rules before they make comments on them. Rapid Shot, however, would work. I didn't notice, since I play with a system that doesn't have it. Still, 75d6 is a bit more than I'd like, so I'll add something in about only being able to use it on BAB derived attacks.
CrimsonDeath 03-08-07, 09:57 PM	Actually, you can 2WF with a greatsword if your other weapon is armor spikes (which can be used to simply poke somebody instead of grappling them). But that's irrelevant for this thread. When I was reading the original ability description I didn't see any indication that two free hands were necessary to use it, nor that only one hand could be used to produce the effect in a given round. Since I knew the effect could be used as an attack action, I assumed (since it wasn't stated otherwise) that it could be used one-handed, with either hand, as often as one could use an attack action. If you still want iterative attacks, I'd suggest something like: "If you have a high base attack bonus, you may use a full attack action to fire additional eldritch blasts as though it were a one-handed weapon. You may not make additional attacks with the eldritch blast due to feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, or Manyshot." You might also include "However, if you have a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you may make off-hand attacks with either the Eldritch Blast or the weapon. If you make off-hand attacks with the Eldritch Blast, you take penalties as though you were using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand." But, you may feel that it's unbalancing to allow any form of two-weapon fighting with your variant Warlock.
Kresalak 03-08-07, 10:58 PM	I already wrote in a restriction that keeps you to BAB attacks only, and stating it as an attack action has the same effect as what you wrote, but with a few less words. But you did give me the idea to turn the Invocation Hideous Blow into a feat: BURNING BLADE Prerequisite: Eldritch Blast ability Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapon with the power of hellfire. The next attack with that weapon deals its normal damage plus the damage that your Eldritch Blast would do. You may use Hellfire Blast or Unholy Blast with this ability, but you still must take the penalty to damage to do so. Normal: Eldritch Blast is a separate attack action
TheAnthroDM 03-08-07, 11:08 PM	Thank you for ruining the Warlock. And especially for completely ignoring the concept of Fey/Eladrin(sp?)/Draconic/Limbo/and all the other Warlock concepts out there. The class looks fine, but seriously. The Warlock did not need a fix, it was fine how it was. I take that back, it was BETTER how it was.
Leress 03-09-07, 12:13 AM	Thank you for ruining the Warlock. And especially for completely ignoring the concept of Fey/Eladrin(sp?)/Draconic/Limbo/and all the other Warlock concepts out there. The class looks fine, but seriously. The Warlock did not need a fix, it was fine how it was. I take that back, it was BETTER how it was. That was completely uncalled for.
TheAnthroDM 03-09-07, 12:16 AM	That was completely uncalled for. I disagree, I thought it was a valid response the class, noticed the title's emphasis on the Warlock sucking before this horrid "fix"?
FSBDavy 03-09-07, 12:44 AM	The title to this thread should perhaps have been better, but nonetheless anyone providing additional rules shouldn't be attacked for doing so. I will not be using this revised warlock class as I am very happy with the warlock as is. I don't care if others are more or less powerful than I, I feel my CG 'darkened soul' has fantastic role-playing in him! However, I am very happy that someone has worked hard on providing additional rules that others can use if they wish! Perhaps the author of this class should consider that the title (of the thread) is overly provocative, but also the posters here should offer constructive criticism to the work he has done which after all, may improve someone else's enjoyment of the game, if not yours. Don't forget people, DnD *CAN* be won. The winner is the person who enjoyed the session Damage be dammed!
CrimsonDeath 03-09-07, 02:57 AM	I already wrote in a restriction that keeps you to BAB attacks only, and stating it as an attack action has the same effect as what you wrote, but with a few less words. Oh, and good thinking mentioning Haste. I didn't even think of it. (I did briefly consider adding Boots of Speed to my optimization exercize, but I wanted to restrict it to things that could be done at will rather than a few times per day.) You still may want to specify whether the blast can be combined with two-weapon fighting (assuming you actually have a weapon ready), and if so, what size weapon the blast counts as.
Kresalak 03-09-07, 07:53 AM	As Eldritch Blast is not actually a weapon (merely a Su ability that can be used as an attack action), it won't work with TWF. Which, when I think about it, prevents Rapid Shot from working as well. Haste also specifies a weapon you're holding, but I'll keep that text in there to minimize confusion and in case there are special abilities that simply give you extra attacks with anything.
turalisj 03-09-07, 09:08 AM	I don't get it. Why reinvent the wheel (or warlock in this case)? I honestly don't understand why someone needs to reinvent something that many people find is just fine.
Kresalak 03-09-07, 09:20 AM	Because I don't fine it "just fine"? You know, since it can't actually compete at all beyond level 5. Their Eldritch Blast is never useful past level 3 at best, and the Invocations they get are never level appropriate, and overall they get nothing that allows them to compete.
WayneTheGame 03-09-07, 11:10 AM	Because I don't fine it "just fine"? You know, since it can't actually compete at all beyond level 5. Compete in regards to what, exactly? You, like most of the folks who go around saying this sucks or that's useless (Frank and K included), erroneously assume that the majority of people CARE about that stuff, when the average group doesn't. Honestly, the folks who follow Frank and K come off as the most arrogant, ignorant, holier-than-thou people I have ever seen with their hate-filled "WotC's designers don't know crap!" arguments that point out feats/PrCs/spells that are cool, just not optimal to the number-crunchers. And I've read a lot of such hate-mongering as I routinely check out the Gaming Den, not to see what they have to say but to laugh at the commentary. The average person doesn't look at it that way. The average person takes Fireball for their wizard because they LIKE the spell, not because they crunch the numbers and want their wizard to cast Time Stop or Gate or whatever the broken spells are nowadays. People play characters for flavor, you know, not just to be super. The average person thinks the Fighter is a good class because they ENJOY the class and see nothing wrong with it in their group, where Clerics don't abuse Divine Meta-magic to get Persistent Divine Power, and Druids don't wildshape into Dire Bears. If you think the Warlock is "useless" and "broken" then that's your opinion and it's valid. But you're calling it useless from what seems to be a munchkin standpoint and not the standpoint of the average gamer, so it should be no surprise if a lot of people on these boards, whom you went out of your way to insult by saying they know nothing about "real" game balance (which I presume means that you do, and from your comment know better than the rest of us), say that your fix is bad and question why it exists at all.
Kresalak 03-09-07, 11:45 AM	Compete in regards to what, exactly? You, like most of the folks who go around saying this sucks or that's useless (Frank and K included), erroneously assume that the majority of people CARE about that stuff, when the average group doesn't. Honestly, the folks who follow Frank and K come off as the most arrogant, ignorant, holier-than-thou people I have ever seen with their hate-filled "WotC's designers don't know crap!" arguments that point out feats/PrCs/spells that are cool, just not optimal to the number-crunchers. And I've read a lot of such hate-mongering as I routinely check out the Gaming Den, not to see what they have to say but to laugh at the commentary. Ok, so because some people don't notice or don't care about game balance, no one should strive for it? No, I don't think that's a good idea. Most people don't care about finding a unified field theory, but does that mean we shouldn't do it? And aren't you one of those people who rants about how evil min/maxers shouldn't be aloud to play the game? The average person doesn't look at it that way. The average person takes Fireball for their wizard because they LIKE the spell, not because they crunch the numbers and want their wizard to cast Time Stop or Gate or whatever the broken spells are nowadays. People play characters for flavor, you know, not just to be super. The average person thinks the Fighter is a good class because they ENJOY the class and see nothing wrong with it in their group, where Clerics don't abuse Divine Meta-magic to get Persistent Divine Power, and Druids don't wildshape into Dire Bears. And because they enjoy it, they deserve to have a character that's as good as everyone else's. If you think the Warlock is "useless" and "broken" then that's your opinion and it's valid. But you're calling it useless from what seems to be a munchkin standpoint and not the standpoint of the average gamer, so it should be no surprise if a lot of people on these boards, whom you went out of your way to insult by saying they know nothing about "real" game balance (which I presume means that you do, and from your comment know better than the rest of us), say that your fix is bad and question why it exists at all. I'm calling it bad from the standpoint of "is it as good as the other classes in the game?"
AllisterH 03-09-07, 02:23 PM	Because I don't fine it "just fine"? You know, since it can't actually compete at all beyond level 5. Their Eldritch Blast is never useful past level 3 at best, and the Invocations they get are never level appropriate, and overall they get nothing that allows them to compete. Compete against what? If it doesn't compete against a wizard, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Against an optimized character? Again, why is this bad. Personally if the problem is that the powers are too weak for their level, wouldn't the easiest thing be simply to scale the power up instead of putting in an entirely new system?
Kresalak 03-09-07, 02:40 PM	Against the monsters they face, and against their teammates. If you're not as good as your team, then you're a drain on your team and they would be better off with someone else. Since they can't get someone else, we have to ensure that you're as close to your team's power level as we can. Yes, I could massively scale up the Warlock's powers. In fact, I kind of did that. Instead of Invocations, he gets Spheres, which can damn well be at will. Eldritch Blast has been powered up to the point where it's an actual viable option in combat that can compete with a Rogue's SA barrage, just like said barrage can compete with using some magic item better than a caster of equivalent level to totally kill people. The other abilities are mostly passive, though the Summon one requires an action. The cohort ability is totally from World of Warcraft even though I've never played that game.
AllisterH 03-09-07, 09:35 PM	Comparing the effectiveness of Edritch Blast with SA I think is fair. However, making it as powerful as SA would actually unbalance it. Remember, SA isn't at will to begin with AND there are a whole whack of creatures that are just plain immune to it. Based on that, Eldritch Blast shouldn't be as powerful IMO.
Leress 03-09-07, 11:42 PM	Comparing the effectiveness of Edritch Blast with SA I think is fair. However, making it as powerful as SA would actually unbalance it. Remember, SA isn't at will to begin with AND there are a whole whack of creatures that are just plain immune to it. Based on that, Eldritch Blast shouldn't be as powerful IMO. I agree.
captain_pelor 03-10-07, 02:32 PM	umm I fail to see how this is better in any way other than the multiple blasts per round. :bored: And I think that stating that data isnt fact is about the stupidest thing I've heard.......... this week.:rolleye2:
Kresalak 03-10-07, 02:55 PM	umm I fail to see how this is better in any way other than the multiple blasts per round. :bored: Huh? And I think that stating that data isnt fact is about the stupidest thing I've heard.......... this week.:rolleye2: Data is data; you can use it to infer facts, but it is not a fact by itself. Also, an ellipse is 3 dots, not 10.
AllisterH 03-11-07, 01:29 AM	Still, the question about the Eldritch Blast needs to be answered I think. For example, you listed the blast as equivalent to one that a rogue uses as a simple and obvious tactic. Seriously, I've NEVER heard of the grenade sneak attack and I don't think a lot of people have either. While there are a lot of creatures with fire resistance, total fire immunity is still relatively rare and for the cost of 2d6, you ignore that fire resistance. The eldritch blast itself is easier to use as well and more likely to hit.
crimsonwolf 03-11-07, 01:52 AM	that and you dont have to get withen 30ft to risk your life....seriously if you guys dont like this thread or idea dont post in it.. and let it die off just posting how much you dont like it keeps it on page one or two longer :S
Kresalak 03-11-07, 03:12 AM	Still, the question about the Eldritch Blast needs to be answered I think. For example, you listed the blast as equivalent to one that a rogue uses as a simple and obvious tactic. Seriously, I've NEVER heard of the grenade sneak attack and I don't think a lot of people have either. I wrote the class so that it would be easy to use; whether or not people are aware of tactics that exist with other classes is not my concern. Though anyone who uses this class would become aware of the grenade-SA tactic anyway. While there are a lot of creatures with fire resistance, total fire immunity is still relatively rare and for the cost of 2d6, you ignore that fire resistance. 2d6 is seven damage on average. Fire resistance usually comes in 10. Usually, you save 3 damage on that. Every devil has fire immunity, as do fire elementals, red dragons, gold dragons, bronze dragons, fire giants, efreeti, and anything else with the [Fire] subtype. The eldritch blast itself is easier to use as well and more likely to hit. Just as likely to hit as a vial of Alchemist's Fire, actually. It is easier to use, though, which is why it can't do as much damage.
NineInchNall 03-21-07, 05:08 PM	Data is data; you can use it to infer facts, but it is not a fact by itself. Also, an ellipse is 3 dots, not 10. Data is a plural noun. Data are data. The three dots are referred to as an ellipsis. Just a friendly announcement from your neighborhood pedant. ;) As far as the class goes, I really like the emphasis on giving the character abilities that are appropriate to his level.
Judging Eagle 04-07-07, 05:12 PM	Unlike the CArc Warlock, which uses new mechanics (for it's EB, EB shapes, essenses and Warlock Invocations) that are harder to explain to someone who aready has a grasp of the game and wants to play a 'magical blaster' character (but does't want to play a Fire Mage, hates the ideas of wizards and has had bad experiences with sorcerers), this class fits the bill nicely. I think that the much maligned Bubbles sphere is meant to be a bit of joke. I mean, a sphere, called "bubbles"? Then again, the Sphere entry talks about making new spheres, such as Badgers or Betrayal as concepts. Making a special note to disallow spheres named things like "kicking ass and being totally sweet". So, modifying or removing spheres in a game is perfectly allowable.
Sotha_syl 06-10-07, 04:58 PM	Well, I've seen some really bad re-done classes in my day. But this is the worst. First of all, you don't seem to grasp the concept that a rogue can only sneak attack under specific conditions, and their SA damage progresses every other level. Your warlock's eldritch blast progresses at every single level. Not to mention that it is a touch attack that can be used at will, and can be enhanced just as easily as your silly example rogue. You clearly don't know the meaning of balance. Second, the original warlock never sucked. The original eldritch blast was amazing, and invocations worked out fine, some people even called it broken, and it certainly can be a broken class if you do things right, but that can be said for any class, and that isn't the point. The point is, Warlock didn't need revising, it was a solid class to begin with that took the idea of the sorcerer and took it to the extreme, which was very interesting to a lot of players. And... what's the deal with that damage reduction?? The original Warlock's DR was pretty good, but what you gave it was just insane and idiotic. Fiendish Cohort? My god man, you just don't know when to stop! That's essentially a permanent summon. Take that, use fiendish summoning, and the leadership feat. Oh, and something that is inherently evil doesn't really need to be of evil alignment. :rolleyes: Energy Resistance: Broken, straight up. Doesn't even need an explanation. Fiendish Apotheosis: A Monk gets this at level 20, but not even half as good. Again, you just don't know when to stop. And last, but certainly the most poorly made system I have ever seen, the spheres. This will essentially boil down to: time stop at will lololololololol i am teh 1337. There's not much more to say, the invocations of the warlock were just fine, some of them were simply awesome. Fly at will is very powerful for the level you get it at. And something that bugged the hell out of me... qualifying for necromantic and fiendish feats, resembling a fiend, using powers of fiends, summoning fiends, and bargaining away ones' soul doesn't mean they are evil? Well I suppose my Blackguard that eats children and loves necrophilia is CG then. Whatever, I'd like to see the DM that lets this into their game. Whomever he or she is, you must have either used a dominate spell on them, or they have an int score so low they can't read or speak.
zae 08-03-07, 02:13 PM	As someone who has tried, many times, to play a CArc Warlock that was actually worth having in the party instead of, you know, anything else, and that was worth more than their hit points as a speed bump for the real casters, I think this is great. I have tried to fix the Warlock before, making it more likely to be useful, but I tried little "Any DM will allow it" things, such as "Lose both abilities that interact with Abuse Magic Device, gain a d8 HD, bonus feats at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 and increase to 6+Int skill points." That didn't really solve the problem. This, though, means that there's actually a reason to use Eldritch Blast, although it might be a little good. I'm honestly not sure, though after a certain level, any tactic involving "Deal direct damage" really does have to be a lot to be worthwhile when you could instead cast "Make for me a (Will/Fort) save, or die." So it's either "A little too good", or "Worthwhile", probably depending on character level and the things you're fighting. The Sphere system is one I like. Yes, I have reservations about the Bubbles sphere, but that's a problem with an individual Sphere, not the system as a whole, and not this class. It allows either heaps of spell-likes with limited uses, or a smaller number with unlimited uses. Whatever. The point is, you have some choice there, as well as not sucking as a result of having a power theme (try making a theme for the CArc Warlock. In most cases, you can't, because there are so few actual Invocations that you can't find two that have the same idea. In the remaining cases, you're paying twice for the same ability, so you suck even more than normal). Better still, you get real spell-like abilities, ones that are actually worth choosing, that you might actually see yourself casting several times per day. All in all, I like it, and can't really see it unbalancing a game. The cohort is an iffy one. I'm not that sure. The main thing it gives you is more actions per round. At the end of the day, if Leadership (an optional feat in the core rules) would cause problems, this one does. If it wouldn't, then this doesn't, except it remains useful as you progress, unlike Leadership, where your cohort quickly becomes a one-round speed bump for any monsters. Well, I've seen some really bad re-done classes in my day. But this is the worst. Really? Try going to google and typing in "Fighter". First of all, you don't seem to grasp the concept that a rogue can only sneak attack under specific conditions, and their SA damage progresses every other level. While this on its own is a completely true, valid point, there is probably error in thinking that rogues are actually useful when facing monsters in a high level game. Often, once you get past around level 10, the rogue just isn't playing the same game as the spellcasters. So it's not necessarily a bad thing to be more powerful than the rogue. Then again, at the lower levels, it's a bit of an issue unless the rogue does go around dual-throwing alchemist fire. I'm going to admit I've never seen it happen. But to be fair, I've only played one game where someone bothered playing a rogue in high levels, and they chose to swap Sneak Attack out for bonus feats. You clearly don't know the meaning of balance. Show me proof that Kresalak doesn't. Because it's so "clear". Could it be that it's actually you who doesn't know something balanced when you see it? I'm not guaranteeing that this is balanced, but I'll say it's closer than the original Warlock, and if it did turn out a bit too good, it'd be a simple matter of toning it down in-game, whereas the CArc Warlock requires liberal applications of DM fiat, granting them a wealth of special items and abilities. Second, the original warlock never sucked. As someone who played several, using different "builds" and different concepts, I beg to differ. Sometimes I made the mistake of coming up with a theme, choosing abilities to match this, then paying the price of being nowhere near good enough to belong in the same party as my peers. Other times I came up with a solid concept, then ignored the concept when choosing the abilities (ie "Here is the character idea." and "This is what she can do." being separate things), and still fell below the bar, requiring SDM intervention. They really don't belong in the same party as everyone else past a certain level (roughly 4th level). The original eldritch blast was amazing Surely you jest. At most levels, everyone else can either do more damage, or can take damage out of the equation altogether (save or die). Heck, there's something which is practically "Eldritch Blast, except as Lightning damage, and bypassing SR/spell immunity, and to a line of foes, automatically hitting without a saving throw" available to Wizards and Sorcerers as a feat. And that isn't considered to be a feat worth taking. and invocations worked out fine, Rather than argue that they really didn't, I would instead like to live in your world - that is, to play the kinds of games where that is the case. I'm willing to bet that you know this from actual experience, that in your games, the Invocations have been fine. But in the games I've played, they are very underpowered for their level (save a few), thus meaning they don't have a significant effect on any encounters. This isn't a matter of "I can't outshine the Cleric" or "The Wizard is outshining me (and everyone else)". It's a matter of "Why am I even bothering to turn up to this fight, I can't do anything meaningful." Worse still is that they come in three flavours: 1. Flavour your eldritch blast, but still don't make it a really good option. 2. A buff, which means "At will" is completely irrelevant. 3. An ability which places a condition on the enemy/field ("battlefield control") and is thus not worth using more than once per encounter because once it starts working, that's it, you can't double-up or anything, and most of them only allow one at a time anyway. I really would like to play a game where they did work out nicely though. some people even called it broken Some people still think the world is flat, and that all governments around the world are covering it up for unknown reasons that they can't yet determine, and are acting incompetent so that no-one would suspect them of working together to coordinate this conspiracy. This is why "some people" aren't worth listening to. I suppose what I'm getting at here, aside from "Some people are morons, but you admitted that isn't the point." is that clearly this one is a matter of opinion and the kind of games you play. It seems you've played games where the Warlock honestly is fine as is. This astounds me, but I'm willing to believe it. It just means that no-one on either side of this argument is actually going to convince anyone else that their PoV is right, because everyone is probably speaking from some level of experience. Which basically means "The post was only for those people who have the experience of 'The CArc Warlock sucks.', so people who disagree really needn't bother answering." The original Warlock's DR was pretty good, but what you gave it was just insane and idiotic. Again, none of my Warlocks actually gained enough benefit from their DR to make it worthwhile. In some cases, it's because every man and his dog was using energy-based spells (thus ignoring DR), in others it's because the DR really was a joke. It made no difference in the number of hits one could sustain, particularly for someone with a d6 hit die. Fiendish Cohort? My god man, you just don't know when to stop! Yeah, that's the one I'm unsure about. However if I were to run a game again, and mention this class, I'd allow it at first, and see how it goes, removing it if it did indeed turn out to be too much. Oh, and something that is inherently evil doesn't really need to be of evil alignment. :rolleyes: Given D&D currently has a poorly explained Alignment system, and there is even a published supplement (not by WotC, who like to pretend it is working just fine) explains step by step how to play a genocidal murderer as a Paladin and still be LG (note: not genociding inherently evil races, but instead targeting humans, the universal "We're not stereotyped" race.), Alignment means as little or as much as you want it to. Some could just be displaying powers gained from their bloodline, and are using the power to do good. Others could be actively stealing the power from Hell, trying to use up all of the hellfire reserves on frivlous things so that fiends don't have access. Maybe they sold their soul for the powers to use them for good (see: Ghost Rider). Who knows. There's no need to say "It's always Evil" though. Instead, just say "Depends on the circumstances." and if the circumstances normally say "Evil", then so be it. No need to penalize that one other guy though. Energy Resistance: Broken, straight up. Doesn't even need an explanation. Again, it's nothing amazing, and Energy Resistance doesn't play such a *huge* role in a game, for a player. It means that against some enemies, they take less/no damage. In some games, it'll never even come up. Ultimately, nearly all these abilities are simple for a Wizard or Cleric to gain via a spell by the time they're gained at any meaningful amount. So many people seem to think that it's totally okay for a caster to have all of these and more, usually at bigger levels, available as spells, but not okay for a class to have even a few available just as features. Fiendish Apotheosis: A Monk gets this at level 20, but not even half as good. Again, you just don't know when to stop. It's not actually that big or powerful an ability, though. Really. And if you're now going to say that Monks are well-balanced and really useful at facing level-appropriate monsters (no, I don't think they should win solo against monsters CRed at their level, I think they should be able to have a meaningful effect on them as part of a 4 man team, or have 50-50 odds in a solo, with a good chance of both participants coming close to death), then all I can say in response starts with "Knock-knock". And last, but certainly the most poorly made system I have ever seen, the spheres. This will essentially boil down to: time stop at will lololololololol i am teh 1337. There's not much more to say, the invocations of the warlock were just fine, some of them were simply awesome. Fly at will is very powerful for the level you get it at. Fly at will is good when you're not in a dungeon. This means the ability has a use dependent entirely on whether or not there is a roof above your head. In many games, it's 50-50. In many others, you're nearly always underground. Yes, I know, in some, you're always in cities or battlefields, or getting flown around on giant blimps (in which case you don't actually need to fly individually, for the last one). Many people have already stated, re: Timestop at will, that one shouldn't say the entire Sphere system, and this class, are broken just because of the Bubbles sphere. Look, pretend "Bubbles" doesn't exist. Now doesn't it seem better? And if you want a worse system, might I point you out to some of the following: Memorized Vancian casting. Item Creation Level Adjustment/ECL Spell-like Abilities used by the current Warlock Truenaming Shadowcasting See, there are plenty of them. And something that bugged the hell out of me... qualifying for necromantic and fiendish feats, resembling a fiend, using powers of fiends, summoning fiends, and bargaining away ones' soul doesn't mean they are evil? Well I suppose my Blackguard that eats children and loves necrophilia is CG then. Resembling a fiend shouldn't be evil. That's just dumb. Otherwise Danny Elfman would totally be Evil aligned. And again, see above. The alignment system is a mess, and tries to mean several things at a time, so either you pick any given "Alignment means this" theory, and that determines whether the class has to be evil or not, or simply say "It depends on the situation". Whatever, I'd like to see the DM that lets this into their game. Whomever he or she is, you must have either used a dominate spell on them, or they have an int score so low they can't read or speak. No, I simply have played the games where Warlocks do indeed suck, and where many classes need power boosts - not to be compared to Wizards and Clerics of their level, but to be relevant when facing monsters of their level. It's plain and simple. The DM that lets it into their game knows the Warlock has problems, so decided to see how well this solves them - knowing that they may need to change it as they go/
Pyke_Moonshadow 08-03-07, 02:28 PM	OHHHHHH. Now I see why this class seems a tad wtf to me. If it is to be on par with Frank and K then yeah, looks good. If it is to be used in a D&D campaign then I am back to wtf.
zae 08-03-07, 10:54 PM	Really? I have yet to have a problem with their stuff in regular games. Granted, I still don't do D&D before 5th level, so I'm sure there's all kinds of craziness there, but I haven't seen things get as out of hand as I've seen them get in other games. That being said, the number of "Games using a lot of Frankand K stuff" I've played is vastly smaller. But yes, while this means that things it is balanced against include "A wizard who promises not to do really stupid stuff", "A druid who promises not to do really stupid stuff", "A cleric who does not have Divine Metamagic" and the various things by Frank and K, it's only the last one there that exists outside of regular D&D.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 08-24-07, 11:14 PM	Kresalak, What do you feel is wrong with the Warlock? I have had more fun with the warlock than any other class (Except, perhaps the Incarnate). Your Warlock on the other hand does seem a bit...Sharky.
Chemus 09-20-07, 02:25 AM	Since the current Warlock from Complete Arcane doesn't work at all, and people obviously want to play a crazy dude who trades his soul for power, I decided to make a better version of it... While I don't think that the warlock completely sucks, I like some of the things that you've done here. I'd like to pick this apart a little and make some suggestions (although I see you've not posted in this thread in about 6 months...) ...Warlock “I have all the powers of Hell at my disposal. Who are you to question me?” Some people want power, and are crazy enough to offer their soul to various not nice people to get it. Others are simply (un)lucky enough to be descendants of those same people. However they managed to get their abilities, Warlocks wield the powers of the lower planes, which include powerful magic spells and the ability to shoot hellfire out of their hands. Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment... Here is one place where my opinion seems to differ from other folks', and from yours apparently. I appreciate that there is inborn flavor to the class, I really do. However, I feel that the flavor is too heavy handed. I feel this about the original warlock as well. In my opinion, the warlock ought to be treated a bit more like an arcane spellcaster, or perhaps like a divine one. Thus, he learns his stuff through hard work -or- has tremendous inborn talent -or- takes a shortcut by allying himself with a powerful Outsider/Fey/<insert magical being type here>. Allowing for flavor is really neat, IMO, but forcing it (so that anything other than the given flavor must be a house-rule) is not my cup o' tea. ...Sphere: A Warlock gains basic access to a sphere (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285363&postcount=5) at every third level. If the Warlock selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access... This is my biggest mechanics only suggestion: to reduce the flak that this class has received, might I interest you in a minor nerf? To wit; include a clause like:"The maximum ability usable from a sphere is determined by the warlock's class level, rather than character level." Then, the most powerful spells are out of reach (Using most any of the 9th level spells at will seems pretty cheesy to me, not un-fun, but still cheesy) Also, here is a chance to put in more flavor options; by making up spheres. Make some fey, some celestial, and some aberrant or draconic... whatever. I'm not suggesting that 'You, Kresalak, must make more spheres.' I think that inserting a suggestion to use the spheres rules as a template, but allow for a sphere of 'generosity' for the Celestially minded, and a sphere of 'laughter' for the fey would go far to 'opening' the class. ...Fiendish Similarities: A 2nd level Warlock may qualify for and take feats with the [Fiend] or [Necromantic] tag, as long as he meets the other requirements. For [Necromantic] feats, he may use his character level as his caster level. Call Fiends (Sp): At 4th level, a Warlock can Summon an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype once per day, as long as the Outsider’s Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of creatures summoned by reducing the max CR of the creatures by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Warlock could summon one CR 6 fiend, two CR 4 fiends, 4 CR 2 fiends, or 8 CR 1 fiends). This is treated as a spell of one half the Warlock’s level, rounded down, with a caster level equal to his levels in Warlock... Again, more built-in flavor. Now, don't get me wrong, I really like that this class essentially makes fiends modular; pick the parts you like and go. However, perhaps the Call Fiends ability could become one of the sphere abilities? The Fiendish Similarities could be turned into a bonus feat with a list of: Product of Infernal Dalliance (even though you're not 1st level), The Feytouched beginner feat of which I forgot the name, Draconic Heritage, Aberration Blood, etc. Also add in Magical Aptitude or somesuch, if the player desires to have gotten his powers via study, or whatnot. This builds in the ability for warlocks to choose their flavor. Obviously I think that's a good thing. ...Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a Warlock gains damage reduction equal to one half his class level, rounded up. This damage reduction is bypasses by whatever material is baneful to the Warlock’s fiendish patron or ancestor (silver for Baatezu, wood for Yugoloths, stone for Demodands, and iron for Tanar’ri) or Good aligned weapons. At 13th level, it is bypassed only by one of those, which the Warlock chooses upon taking the level. If a Warlock later takes levels in True Fiend, the damage reduction stacks and, at the third level of True Fiend, is bypassed only by weapons that are both Good and made of a baneful substance... Again, expand the list a bit to include Fey (Cold Iron, Lawful), Celestials (Archons, Eladrin, et al.; Silver/Cold Iron, Evil), and perhaps Dragons (magic weapons, choose a material). The one for dragons would flavor well for self taught as well, IMO. ...Bonus Feat: At 8th level, a Warlock gains one bonus feat, which can be any [Fiend] feat he qualifies for... Again, just expand the list calling out the feat gained at 2nd level. Flavor options... ...Dark Blast (Su): At 10th level, a Warlock may choose to change the damage of his Eldritch Blast to Unholy damage by reducing the damage it deals by 4d6 (a 10th level Warlock could opt to fire a 10d6 fire blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, or 6d6 unholy blast)... Here, just add a one-time choice to convert the damage to Holy or Arcane... ...Fiendish Servant: An 11th level Warlock is followed by a cohort whose CR is 2 less than his level, but the cohort can only have levels in True Fiend, Fiendish Brute, or Conduit of the Lower Planes (they can also have racial hit dice). Regardless of class chosen, the cohort must be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, though they do not have to actually be evil... Perhaps add: 'Alternatively, the warlock's cohort can be a Dragon (as per dragon cohort feat), Angel, Archon, Aberration or Fey. Their very limited class level lists should be adjudicated by the DM; Flavor of the type being paramount.' ...Fear Aura (Su): At 14th level, a Warlock can radiate a 20 foot aura of Fear as per the spell at will with a caster level equal to his character level. Save DC is 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier. People who save against this aura cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours... Maybe add in a 'creatures hostile to the warlock' clause to keep friends happier? ...Fiendish Apotheosis: A 15th level Warlock becomes an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, even if his own alignment is not evil. He is immortal and does not age. This allows him to qualify for the Fiend (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285350&postcount=3) classes, which can be used to fill out his last 5 levels. One mechanical gripe, and one flavor. Since True fiend makes him Immortal at 1st anyway, why put that part in? Why not take a page out of the Monk/Druid book and make it that he doesn't age, but still dies when his time is up? Now the flavor (again). Maybe adjust the [Evil] subtype to be options ranging throughout the alignment spectrum. While I can't think of any non-alignment subtypes that fit, perhaps others could be added? Overall, the class powers the warlock up more than I would prefer for direct damage, but the spheres give much needed consistency and perhaps more variety. Just determining maximum sphere power by class level rather than by character level (as K had done) reduces the possible abuses, IMO. If you were to also reduce the EB damage to a total of 8 (after untyping it via Dark Blast) then I think that it would be a pretty fair revision. Most of the rest of my post was and is about a flavor critique. That's not just for this version of warlock, but for the original too. Fun stuff overall, good work ;)
Leo 09-20-07, 08:16 AM	Have you at least bothered to play a normal warlock before doing this? At low levels you either do decent damage or provide plenty of utility with balefull utterance. At mid levels you get plenty of battlefield control using Evard's chilling tentacles(hint:you can cast it several times in the same area), new blast shapes to hit several guys, rise an army of hundreds of undeads on a matter of seconds. You also get a permanent cohort you can swap anytime. You also can craft whatever you please and use any item the party finds. At high levels you just get the blast who drains levels and procede to kill everything that gets in your way while you're impossible to be suprised 24 hours per day 7 days per week. You can also transform the usual warlock in a mighty melee guy who sends everyone who approaches flying into the air with the right choice of powers. Hell, lots of people actually think the warlock is broken. But not you of course. Your definition of balanced is "time stop at will". I ask you, what do you consider broken then?
inkeyeshasthecoolestart 09-20-07, 04:32 PM	Warlocks dont suck.
Crusher217 09-20-07, 05:15 PM	Since the current Warlock from Complete Arcane doesn't work at all, and people obviously want to play a crazy dude who trades his soul for power, I decided to make a better version of it. I have never read anything about people wanting to trade their soul for power on these forums. This class was primarily made by taking some of the core mechanics of the True Fiend (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688) and Fire Mage (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=3&thread=11&postnum=18) and splicing them together, then by adding some other abilities. It was originally posted in the "Making the Warlock from scratch" thread, but I can get a lot more feedback on it here. Don't try to balance a class on third party support. Warlock “I have all the powers of Hell at my disposal. Who are you to question me?” Basically the same flavor as the PrC for Warlocks in Fiendish Codex 2, the Hellfire Warlock. Some people want power, and are crazy enough to offer their soul to various not nice people to get it. Others are simply (un)lucky enough to be descendants of those same people. However they managed to get their abilities, Warlocks wield the powers of the lower planes, which include powerful magic spells and the ability to shoot hellfire out of their hands. Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment. Races: Warlocks can be any non-Outsider. Actual Outsiders don’t bargain away their souls because they already have the ability to use the powers they would get, and that is represented by them having access to classes like True Fiend or Conduit of the Lower Planes. However, a Warlock who later becomes an Outsider can still be a Warlock. Base Classes should never be restricted because of race, only PrC's. Starting Gold: 4d4*10 gp (100 gold) Starting Age: As Rogue. Hit Die: d6 Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha). Skills/Level: 4+ Int modifier, x4 at first level. BAB: Medium, as Rogue. Saves: Fort: Poor, Reflex: Good, Will: Good. Level, Benefit 1: Sphere, Eldritch Blast 2: Fiendish Similarities 3: Sphere 4: Call Fiends 5: Hellfire Blast 6: Sphere 7: Damage Reduction 8: Bonus feat 9: Sphere 10: Dark Blast 11: Fiendish Servant 12: Sphere 13: Energy resistance 14: Fear Aura 15: Sphere, Fiendish Apotheosis Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Warlocks are proficient in light armor, shields (but not tower shield), and simple weapons. Sphere: A Warlock gains basic access to a sphere (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285363&postcount=5) at every third level. If the Warlock selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access. Again, 3rd party support. Eldritch Blast (Su): As an attack action, a Warlock may fire a blast of fire at his foes. This has a range of Close (25 feet +5 ft./2 levels), does 1d6 damage per level of Warlock, and requires a ranged touch attack to hit. You can only use Eldritch Blast with attacks derived from your Base Attack Bonus; Rapid Shot, Haste, or similar abilities that grant extra attacks do not work. Eldritch Blast was fine as it was, don't change it to d6/level. Fiendish Similarities: A 2nd level Warlock may qualify for and take feats with the [Fiend] or [Necromantic] tag, as long as he meets the other requirements. For [Necromantic] feats, he may use his character level as his caster level. Sounds evil to me. Call Fiends (Sp): At 4th level, a Warlock can Summon an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype once per day, as long as the Outsider’s Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of creatures summoned by reducing the max CR of the creatures by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Warlock could summon one CR 6 fiend, two CR 4 fiends, 4 CR 2 fiends, or 8 CR 1 fiends). This is treated as a spell of one half the Warlock’s level, rounded down, with a caster level equal to his levels in Warlock. Needs a duration of 1 minute/level. Hellfire Blast (Su): At 5th level, a Warlock may choose to fire a blast of hellfire instead of normal fire, at the cost of 2d6 points of damage (i.e. a 5th level Warlock could use a 5d6 fire blast or a 3d6 hellfire blast). This blast bypasses fire resistance and deals half damage to creatures with fire immunity. Change the name, it may confuse people who use Hellfire Warlock PrC. Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a Warlock gains damage reduction equal to one half his class level, rounded up. This damage reduction is bypasses by whatever material is baneful to the Warlock’s fiendish patron or ancestor (silver for Baatezu, wood for Yugoloths, stone for Demodands, and iron for Tanar’ri) or Good aligned weapons. At 13th level, it is bypassed only by one of those, which the Warlock chooses upon taking the level. If a Warlock later takes levels in True Fiend, the damage reduction stacks and, at the third level of True Fiend, is bypassed only by weapons that are both Good and made of a baneful substance. No class should get this much DR at 7 level. Leave DR as the Warlock had it. Bonus Feat: At 8th level, a Warlock gains one bonus feat, which can be any [Fiend] feat he qualifies for. OK. Dark Blast (Su): At 10th level, a Warlock may choose to change the damage of his Eldritch Blast to Unholy damage by reducing the damage it deals by 4d6 (a 10th level Warlock could opt to fire a 10d6 fire blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, or 6d6 unholy blast). Sounds evil to me again. Fiendish Servant: An 11th level Warlock is followed by a cohort whose CR is 2 less than his level, but the cohort can only have levels in True Fiend, Fiendish Brute, or Conduit of the Lower Planes (they can also have racial hit dice). Regardless of class chosen, the cohort must be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, though they do not have to actually be evil. Get rid of this ability. Energy Resistance: At 13th level, a Warlock gains resistance 10 to two energy types of his choice, and resistance 5 to a third. No point to this. Warlock shouldn't get energy resistance. (Neither should favored souls but that's for another post.) Fear Aura (Su): At 14th level, a Warlock can radiate a 20 foot aura of Fear as per the spell at will with a caster level equal to his character level. Save DC is 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier. People who save against this aura cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours. Very Weak. Just leave it as a dead level. Fiendish Apotheosis: A 15th level Warlock becomes an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, even if his own alignment is not evil. He is immortal and does not age. This allows him to qualify for the Fiend (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285350&postcount=3) classes, which can be used to fill out his last 5 levels. This automatically makes the creature evil. You can't be a good outsider [evil]. I recommend strongly that you read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55947).
IRememberCecil 09-20-07, 05:29 PM	No class should get this much DR at 7 level. Leave DR as the Warlock had it. There's no general rule on this issue. 4 years ago, people thought the ability to fly was only suitable for PrCs, high-level characters and spellcasters. Look how that turned out. This automatically makes the creature evil. You can't be a good outsider [evil]. I beg to differ. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)
Crusher217 09-20-07, 05:59 PM	The class ends at 15th level, at which point the Warlock gets 15d6 three times, which is 45d6. At this point a Rogue can TWF using vials of Alchemists Fire/Frost/Acid for 1d6+8d6 six times per round, ending up with an impressive 54d6, all as Touch attacks. Furthermore, if the Warlock wishes to pierce fire resistance, he only gets 13d6 per attack, and to get past immunity he only has 11d6. Yes, the class is 15 levels long. This is intended to keep the blast damage in line (I want him slightly less awesome at killing things with damage than a Rogue), as well as to give him an opportunity to get actual Fiend classes. And as soon as I'm done this I'll add a link for Spheres and True Fiend. Not possible see 5 quotes down. Also you should make the class 20 like normal base classes, or just get rid of it, nothing is ever 15 levels. The choices are 3, 5, 10, for prc's and 20 for base classes. Did you read the part where I explain that a Rogue can do 54d6 (48d6 from SA alone) at level 15, where my Warlock only gets 45d6? Too bad that's not possible see 4 quotes down. Ring of Command Word Greater Blink: 45,000 Wand of Grave/Golemstrike: 4,500 total Staff of Major Creation (for the alchemical items: 16,875 When I have time I can do a level by level breakdown of Eldritch Blast and why you will rarely use it. What a waste of money, an average rogue wouldn't waste all his money on these. greetings. two things one eldritch blast has been errata'ed as having the same progression as sneak attack. -shamus the daft Where is this eratta, I can't find it in the Complete Arcane Eratta. Umm that is not a significant amount of people. 30-ish people that nowhere near enough to draw an accurate conclusion. Well at least he tries to support his data with factual information, unlike Kresalak who uses impossible builds to try to prove a point. I guess the whole thing where I said that I need math to determine balance isn't getting through. First you must make a viable build before we start to compare. You cannot sneak attack with grenade-like weapons because a sneak attack requires and attack roll see the two quotes below. Also, you have to make the class 20 like a standard base class. And stop comparing the rogue to the warlock. (From Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks Part 4) Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. That goes for weapons too. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. Note the emphasis. This means that it only deals sneak attack damage on one guy, not the whole 10ft.^2 area. Say you sold your soul to a Devil because you got word that there was a Demon invasion coming soon, and it was your only chance to get the power necessary to make a difference in said invasion. Yes you're dealing with evil forces, but you are doing it for what you percieve as a greater good, and are just willing to take the penalties associated with it. Would you call such a character evil? Try to justify how you embrace the fiendish heritage even more to get more evil powers later on, rather than trying to remove the "curse". Actually the build you give is doing it as a standard action. If you consider instead a Scout/Rogue doing what you suggest, with Rapid Shot, or Two Weapon Fighting, you get 4-6 attacks (depending on which you're looking at) or 7 if you're two weapon fighting and rapid shotting. Since you optimized it up to 23d6 per attack, we're looking at anywhere from 92d6 to 121d6 per round using a full round action. Which flat out blows the warlock out of the water. A moderately optimized rogue using just two weapon fighting and nothing else gets 66d6 per round. Don't compare the rogue to the warlock, they aren't both in the same niche for a four person party. No, the rules say you add Sneak Attack to ranged attacks if they otherwise qualify. Grenade-like weapons are ranged touch attacks, a subset of ranged attacks. If they qualify, they deal extra SA damage. The splash damage, however, is not added to, since there's no attack roll involved. See above for the official way to handle it. I wrote the class so that it would be easy to use; whether or not people are aware of tactics that exist with other classes is not my concern. Though anyone who uses this class would become aware of the grenade-SA tactic anyway. It should be your concern because that is a flawed perception, the class should be balanced on real builds, not your thoughts of what the rules say is allowed. Well, I've seen some really bad re-done classes in my day. But this is the worst. First of all, you don't seem to grasp the concept that a rogue can only sneak attack under specific conditions, and their SA damage progresses every other level. Your warlock's eldritch blast progresses at every single level. Not to mention that it is a touch attack that can be used at will, and can be enhanced just as easily as your silly example rogue. You clearly don't know the meaning of balance. Second, the original warlock never sucked. The original eldritch blast was amazing, and invocations worked out fine, some people even called it broken, and it certainly can be a broken class if you do things right, but that can be said for any class, and that isn't the point. The point is, Warlock didn't need revising, it was a solid class to begin with that took the idea of the sorcerer and took it to the extreme, which was very interesting to a lot of players. And... what's the deal with that damage reduction?? The original Warlock's DR was pretty good, but what you gave it was just insane and idiotic. Fiendish Cohort? My god man, you just don't know when to stop! That's essentially a permanent summon. Take that, use fiendish summoning, and the leadership feat. Oh, and something that is inherently evil doesn't really need to be of evil alignment. :rolleyes: Energy Resistance: Broken, straight up. Doesn't even need an explanation. Fiendish Apotheosis: A Monk gets this at level 20, but not even half as good. Again, you just don't know when to stop. And last, but certainly the most poorly made system I have ever seen, the spheres. This will essentially boil down to: time stop at will lololololololol i am teh 1337. There's not much more to say, the invocations of the warlock were just fine, some of them were simply awesome. Fly at will is very powerful for the level you get it at. And something that bugged the hell out of me... qualifying for necromantic and fiendish feats, resembling a fiend, using powers of fiends, summoning fiends, and bargaining away ones' soul doesn't mean they are evil? Well I suppose my Blackguard that eats children and loves necrophilia is CG then. Whatever, I'd like to see the DM that lets this into their game. Whomever he or she is, you must have either used a dominate spell on them, or they have an int score so low they can't read or speak. Very well said.
Leo 09-20-07, 06:01 PM	There's no general rule on this issue. 4 years ago, people thought the ability to fly was only suitable for PrCs, high-level characters and spellcasters. Look how that turned out. I beg to differ. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) Please show any CR 7 monster/creature/class/etc who gets permanent 11 DR. And no, it's still not easy for low level charactes to get flying. The best you can get is raptorian, and only starts truly flying after some levels, and still you can't do it with too much weight or heavy armor. This warlock? 7th level, 11 DR, and then it only keeps growing. Heck, most melee monster of CR 7 will have an hard time breaking trough that. Since we're talking about a spellcaster that eventualy will get 9th level powers, geting obscene damage reduction isn't exactly balanced.
IRememberCecil 09-20-07, 06:05 PM	Please show any CR 7 monster/creature/class/etc who gets permanent 11 DR. And no, it's still not easy for low level charactes to get flying. The best you can get is raptorian, and only starts truly flying after some levels, and still you can't do it with too much weight or heavy armor. This warlock? 7th level, 11 DR, and then it only keeps growing. Heck, most melee monster of CR 7 will have an hard time breaking trough that. Since we're talking about a spellcaster that eventualy will get 9th level powers, geting obscene damage reduction isn't exactly balanced. The Warlock has DR 4 at level 7 and gets at most DR 8 from his class levels alone. That's not a problem. As for flight, it's easy to get it with potions and other such means. They may not be permanent but they're enough for the time being.
Crusher217 09-20-07, 06:23 PM	I beg to differ. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) The succubus paladin was spawned from the devious minds who make the creatures that cannot be, basically an evil paradigm couln't turn out good without some very extenuating circumstances, also most DM's don't allow changes of heart in monsters that are always chaotic evil. (Look up succubus in the SRD, it is listed as always chaotic evil, and it is found on a plane chaotic and evil aligned, monsters rarely ever go to the total opposite of their listed alignment, sans Driz'zt and all his clones.
Leo 09-20-07, 07:43 PM	The Warlock has DR 4 at level 7 and gets at most DR 8 from his class levels alone. That's not a problem. As for flight, it's easy to get it with potions and other such means. They may not be permanent but they're enough for the time being. Ok, I may be wrong, but isn't "one half" the same as 1.5x? If it would be 4 at 7th level, wouldn't it be just "half".
Ecureuil_Diabolique 09-20-07, 07:51 PM	Ok, I may be wrong, but isn't "one half" the same as 1.5x? If it would be 4 at 7th level, wouldn't it be just "half". One half is .5x 1.5x is "one and a half"
NineInchNall 09-20-07, 07:59 PM	Ok, I may be wrong, but isn't "one half" the same as 1.5x? If it would be 4 at 7th level, wouldn't it be just "half". :blink: Ah, Leo, you crack me up. One half = 1/2, just as one third = 1/3. There are two halves in a whole.
IRememberCecil 09-20-07, 11:22 PM	The succubus paladin was spawned from the devious minds who make the creatures that cannot be, basically an evil paradigm couln't turn out good without some very extenuating circumstances, also most DM's don't allow changes of heart in monsters that are always chaotic evil. (Look up succubus in the SRD, it is listed as always chaotic evil, and it is found on a plane chaotic and evil aligned, monsters rarely ever go to the total opposite of their listed alignment, sans Driz'zt and all his clones. I'm well aware of the fact that Demons are the incarnations of Chaos and Evil. That doesn't make Eludecia any less real. She's an extreme deviation (in every possibly way), but she's real.
Leo 09-21-07, 05:05 AM	I'm well aware of the fact that Demons are the incarnations of Chaos and Evil. That doesn't make Eludecia any less real. She's an extreme deviation (in every possibly way), but she's real. Yes. Just life 35 headed tarrasques, dryads liches, half-dragon dragons and pn-pun. Yet, we can't really use them as guide lines. In worst of chances, it means succubbus can be become LG, not any demon. And this warlock looks like no sucubus to me.
IRememberCecil 09-21-07, 09:19 AM	Yes. Just life 35 headed tarrasques, dryads liches, half-dragon dragons and pn-pun. Yet, we can't really use them as guide lines. But the thing is, Eludecia is in the line of articles called "Fight Club". Those articles are not theoretical exercises (like certain other articles), but presentations of characters ready for use in campaigns. In worst of chances, it means succubbus can be become LG, not any demon. And this warlock looks like no sucubus to me. Everything can change alignment, even Demons. But as it stands, the only tangible example of this is Eludecia. Also, nothing changes your alignment unless it explicitly states that it does.
Kresalak 09-21-07, 12:41 PM	Don't try to balance a class on third party support. I should balance it on WotC stuff instead? So what should my balance point be-suck horribly and never be useful, or win the game instantly? Basically the same flavor as the PrC for Warlocks in Fiendish Codex 2, the Hellfire Warlock. Don't have the book, don't care. All I know about that class is that it made CharOp drool over 20d6/round or something pathetic like that. Base Classes should never be restricted because of race, only PrC's. "Outsider" is actually a type, not a race. Eldritch Blast was fine as it was, don't change it to d6/level. Eldritch Blast as is was never useful ever. Needs a duration of 1 minute/level. Why? Change the name, it may confuse people who use Hellfire Warlock PrC. I would expect that if someone is going to use a third party PrC, they're going to be aware of that fact enough not to confuse it with a ****** PrC in some book I don't have. No class should get this much DR at 7 level. Leave DR as the Warlock had it. You mean never useful ever? Because I really didn't know that "4" was such a huge number, especially since 7th level monsters are seriously doing 2d10+9 in one hit. Get rid of this ability. Why? No point to this. Warlock shouldn't get energy resistance. (Neither should favored souls but that's for another post.) Again, why? Very Weak. Just leave it as a dead level. In what way is "nothing" better than "something" when that something is free and costs nothing to use? This automatically makes the creature evil. You can't be a good outsider [evil]. Explain this then: Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above). Oh, and how the hell did you dispute my sneak attack thing with your quote and then actually quote me where I say that the splash damage does not get the SA bonus? Are you seriously that ****ing stupid?
Crusher217 09-21-07, 09:27 PM	I should balance it on WotC stuff instead? So what should my balance point be-suck horribly and never be useful, or win the game instantly? If you knew how to balance classes correctly, you would shoot for inbetween those two, which would be on par with a psychic warrior. Don't have the book, don't care. All I know about that class is that it made CharOp drool over 20d6/round or something pathetic like that. Just because you don't have the book doesn't mean everyone else doesn't, plus you could just use the excerpt on the Wizards Web Site to get the whole PrC. "Outsider" is actually a type, not a race. That doesn't change the fact that base classes are made to be compatible with any type of creature, no matter how bad it may be at that particular class. Base classes should only have a restiction if it has to do with alignment, not some stupid race or type that might even fit thematically atleast slightly. Eldritch Blast as is was never useful ever. Says you and maybe some other people, but that doesn't make you right, or even the majority, which just shows you what a munchkin you are because you have to kill everything in one hit with a touch attack. Why? So you can't spend a couple of years in game at high levels putting together a permanent army of balors that only leave if they die. I would expect that if someone is going to use a third party PrC, they're going to be aware of that fact enough not to confuse it with a ****** PrC in some book I don't have. Again, don't base a class that you want others to use on third party material and then exlude material that others may have that's made by Wizards. Many DM's don't even allow Dungeon and Dragon magazines, let alone stuff from these boards. You mean never useful ever? Because I really didn't know that "4" was such a huge number, especially since 7th level monsters are seriously doing 2d10+9 in one hit. Does a barbarian get that much DR, even though he is the one in combat taking hits and learning how to lessen the blows, although a warlock who barely gets into combat some how learns how to take 4x less damage then someone who was built to go into melee combat. Why? What motivation does this creature get for following you even in death, and why would it be there in the first place? Also if you look at all outsider[evil] creatures, their alignment is "Always Evil" or if your that thick-skulled to not understand-"Never Good", so why again would a good warlock get an evil outsider cohort? Again, why? Maybe fire I could understand if I try to see them using fire that much to learn to resist it, but it should be fire only, you even say in the flavor they use hell fire. Hell Fire is not acid or cold. It's fire. In what way is "nothing" better than "something" when that something is free and costs nothing to use? Because fear is such a weak ability as it is, and when facing a creature with an equal CR, it will only fail on a Natural 1, which just shows how weak it really is. All your really giving is an ability that does nothing, essentially the same as a dead level. Have you ever heard "Ooh I got fear this level that creatures can only fail on a Nat. 1. Awesome!!!" because I know I haven't. Explain this then: Sure, maybe you didn't read it right, but you essentially turn evil. There is no penalty for changing back, but if you multiclassed as a character who cannot be evil, or change their alignment like a cleric, they will require atonement which really sucks. Oh, and how the hell did you dispute my sneak attack thing with your quote and then actually quote me where I say that the splash damage does not get the SA bonus? Are you seriously that ****ing stupid? Maybe if you learned to read I didn't quote you, I quoted the Rules of the Game Article All About Sneak Attacks and then the SRD. And plus you use an ill-conceived concept that makes no sense, sneak attacks are basically hurting a vulnerable point, not lighting someone on fire, plus you would probably have to make checks just to keep the vials from breaking each other because in case you didn't know, glass is fragile. Maybe you should learn how to make balanced classes from someone who is good at making them. I've been on enough threads on balancing classes and races to know well balanced classes as I see them, and yours is not balanced. I will read your next post that tries to prove me wrong with your ill-conceived concept of balance, but I will not post unless I see some more severly broken concepts, not because I don't care, but because you just can't get it through your thick-skull that the warlock is fine as it is.
Flamewarrior 09-21-07, 11:32 PM	I could point other issues if I had the time, but let's be quick: a) I'm not in the instant-kill paradigm, but what does 9d6/round mean at all? b) The books have rules for splash weapon throwing and rules for purchasing and use of acid vials - is "risk of breaking" written on either? It's not that I think everything should be written, but it's a pretty safe assumption that the acid flask was written with offensive usage intended; if that was meant to be risky, the parts concerning throwing it should really say so, and they don't. c) He learned from Frank Trollman and K*, since you tried to pull this off. Can you say something of equal value? *: look, I'm not even one of the dedicated Frank & K fanboys (and, honestly, I don't consider Kresalak to be either), but I can see that they're better at it than pretty much everyone, and among the few to put out material that has an actual consistent balance point (same-CR monsters).
IdleAltruism 09-22-07, 01:08 AM	Since the current Warlock from Complete Arcane doesn't work at all, and people obviously want to play a crazy dude who trades his soul for power, I decided to make a better version of it. I'm looking at the class abilities and it looks like you just took eldritch blast. Thats not remaking a class, thats making a new one. I won't be comparing this to the original. I'll just give you my analysis of what you got. Alignment: Warlocks who bargain away their souls for power tend to be Evil, though nothing requires them to be. In fact, demons and devils will jump on the chance to corrupt someone Good to Team Evil, but such instances are rare. People whose power comes from their blood can be any alignment. I find the "demons and devils" corrupting good guys to be out of place in this section. Just a minor note, I think actually setting examples of what they usually are would be more useful here. Races: Warlocks can be any non-Outsider. Actual Outsiders don’t bargain away their souls because they already have the ability to use the powers they would get, and that is represented by them having access to classes like True Fiend or Conduit of the Lower Planes. However, a Warlock who later becomes an Outsider can still be a Warlock. If I remember correctly outsiders don't have souls per say. They are cosmic entities made of essence of the plane they came from. I would allow any race to become a warlock, using the rawr energy of the outer planes to manipulate the world around them in the form of eldritch blasts. Saves: Fort: Poor, Reflex: Good, Will: Good. Doesn't need a good ref it doesn't fit thematically or mechanically. Sure fighters can be quick, but that would take the form of natural dexterity and/or feats not training from being a fighter. Sphere:[/B] A Warlock gains basic access to a sphere (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285363&postcount=5) at every third level. If the Warlock selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access. Spheres are pretty boring and are potentially very broken. Eventually getting SLA at will? This screams broken. Just remove them they are a bad idea to start being hard to balance, lacking flavor, and the mechanic itself was poorly designed. Eldritch Blast (Su): As an attack action, a Warlock may fire a blast of fire at his foes. This has a range of Close (25 feet +5 ft./2 levels), does 1d6 damage per level of Warlock, and requires a ranged touch attack to hit. You can only use Eldritch Blast with attacks derived from your Base Attack Bonus; Rapid Shot, Haste, or similar abilities that grant extra attacks do not work. The key ability of the class and its no different from a warlock. The multiple attacks isn't much, straight damage from a caster will never be comparable to straight damage from a physical combatant(or what they can do). Archers do this, infact they have the potential of doing it alot better. The way eldritch blast was designed its really not optimal damage and never will be, the reason its useful is conditions you can inflict upon enemies with it, the damage is very useful low level but after that your warlock isn't going to be the main damage dealer(standard or this version). Fire damage yuck. This ability is just meh, I'd rethink the concept of a blasty warlock. Its very bland and not very original. I imagine a warlock as a more traditional sorcerer type with some small blasting power and nifty tricks up his sleeve. Not, Some call him Tim, randomly throwing fire everywhere. Fiendish Similarities: A 2nd level Warlock may qualify for and take feats with the [Fiend] or [Necromantic] tag, as long as he meets the other requirements. For [Necromantic] feats, he may use his character level as his caster level. Some examples would be nice on how you plan to implement this. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be broken about this ability, but the necromancy doesn't really fit the theme well. If they specialize and this class had some necromatic abilities then maybe. The fiendish stuff is pushing this towards the evil alignment. Call Fiends (Sp): At 4th level, a Warlock can Summon an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype once per day, as long as the Outsider’s Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of creatures summoned by reducing the max CR of the creatures by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Warlock could summon one CR 6 fiend, two CR 4 fiends, 4 CR 2 fiends, or 8 CR 1 fiends). This is treated as a spell of one half the Warlock’s level, rounded down, with a caster level equal to his levels in Warlock. A boring 1/day one shot wonder that is probably evil. I was pretty sure summoning fiends was an evil act(I may be wrong, but I coulda sworn I saw it somewhere :D ) What is the duration of this ability? Hellfire Blast (Su): At 5th level, a Warlock may choose to fire a blast of hellfire instead of normal fire, at the cost of 2d6 points of damage (i.e. a 5th level Warlock could use a 5d6 fire blast or a 3d6 hellfire blast). This blast bypasses fire resistance and deals half damage to creatures with fire immunity. This ability just seems pointless to me. The only weakness your blast has just pretty much got negated at relatively low level, no build up or anything. I would focus more on the invocation type augments to the eldritch blasts.....not just the same old eldritch blast. This is the same old stuff every level, nothing new, nothing compelling, just blast, some ability to make the blast harder to resist, and more blast. Its like a fighter using the same weapon from level one with no new feats. Less options then a fighter on a casterish class?!? Blasphemy! Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a Warlock gains damage reduction equal to one half his class level, rounded up. This damage reduction is bypasses by whatever material is baneful to the Warlock’s fiendish patron or ancestor (silver for Baatezu, wood for Yugoloths, stone for Demodands, and iron for Tanar’ri) or Good aligned weapons. At 13th level, it is bypassed only by one of those, which the Warlock chooses upon taking the level. If a Warlock later takes levels in True Fiend, the damage reduction stacks and, at the third level of True Fiend, is bypassed only by weapons that are both Good and made of a baneful substance. Small, think small. This is alot of DR for a caster class and it really doesn't need that. Its just another thing to write down on your character sheet and forget about. Abilities! It needs abilities! Bonus Feat: At 8th level, a Warlock gains one bonus feat, which can be any [Fiend] feat he qualifies for. Um yay? Dark Blast (Su): At 10th level, a Warlock may choose to change the damage of his Eldritch Blast to Unholy damage by reducing the damage it deals by 4d6 (a 10th level Warlock could opt to fire a 10d6 fire blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, or 6d6 unholy blast). By unholy do you mean negative energy? If so I see potential abuse. Fiendish Servant: An 11th level Warlock is followed by a cohort whose CR is 2 less than his level, but the cohort can only have levels in True Fiend, Fiendish Brute, or Conduit of the Lower Planes (they can also have racial hit dice). Regardless of class chosen, the cohort must be an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, though they do not have to actually be evil. No. Just plain no. Give him the leadership feat without the followers. This ability is poorly written. It looks to be very overpowered, cohorts are not determined by CR its ECL they are not the same. More specifics would be nice. A list would be excellent. Personally I would put this at 7-8th level and give them an imp familiar(but then I would make the class evil, which it basically already is). Energy Resistance: At 13th level, a Warlock gains resistance 10 to two energy types of his choice, and resistance 5 to a third. Another random ability that doesn't scale just bam right there in your face. I would try to be more consistent when designing class abilities. Try to scale the abilities rather then giving full abilities all at once. This is potentially an unbalancing habit(not with this particular ability but in general). Fiendish Apotheosis: A 15th level Warlock becomes an Outsider with the [Evil] subtype, even if his own alignment is not evil. He is immortal and does not age. This allows him to qualify for the Fiend (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9285350&postcount=3) classes, which can be used to fill out his last 5 levels. Petered out there huh? Thats it? This class was poorly designed. It has very broken qualities(fiendish cohort and spheres) the rest of the abilities are so vanilla there not even worth mentioning. If you really want to remake a warlock you shouldn't focus so much on the blast, its not that important. I wouldn't mess with the warlock, if you don't like it don't use it. While not being the most powerful class its certainly not the weakest. I find it to be decently balanced and it can excel in many different aspect by PrCing out. The invocations are what make the warlock(the part you pretty much dropped) not the blast.
zae 09-23-07, 12:57 PM	Ok, I'm going to try to be nice here... If you knew how to balance classes correctly, you would shoot for inbetween those two, which would be on par with a psychic warrior. [Snip] not because I don't care, but because you just can't get it through your thick-skull that the warlock is fine as it is. Hahaha oh wow. You really are as dumb as you first seemed. Try putting things like Warlocks and Psychic Warriors in parties at 12th level and above, and you realise that, excluding crazy tricks*, they can't actually face the monsters. Like, at all. Either the full caster does all the work (usually by casting "I Win" and ending the battle in one round), or they don't have a full caster and everyone dies. *That's why the multi-flask acid throwing rogue is so common: if they're not hurling that much touch-attack sneak attack damage around and relying on Abuse Magic Device, they're not playing the same game. At high levels, they stop being useful at all. And this makes baby Kord cry. Okay, I lied, I didn't even try to be nice.
Neeek 09-23-07, 04:03 PM	Not possible see 5 quotes down. Also you should make the class 20 like normal base classes, or just get rid of it, nothing is ever 15 levels. The choices are 3, 5, 10, for prc's and 20 for base classes. Or 7 (IotSV) or 13 (Void Disciple) for PrCs... Seriously, this is the silliest complaint I've ever heard. There is no reason why a class must, or even should, conform to a standard set of levels.
Flamewarrior 09-23-07, 05:42 PM	Frank Trollman (author of the Tome series, along with K) said that, if he rewrote it, the last spell-like abilities of a sphere expertly accessed would be usable only 5 times/day - how much does that make stuff better? Also, remember: you know shapechange, right? The sphere system's explicitly designed to compete with people who walk around as medusas, dragons, or myconid sovereigns - mind that.
warforged51092 09-23-07, 05:52 PM	What's wrong with the Complete Arcane Warlock :mad: ? I love the CA Warlock.
Flamewarrior 09-23-07, 06:08 PM	warforged51092 :read my prior post.
Neeek 09-23-07, 08:44 PM	What's wrong with the Complete Arcane Warlock :mad: ? I love the CA Warlock. Several things. First, the designer went in a bad direction from the get-go: The theory behind the Warlock is it's okay to do things all the time that wizards and such were doing 4 levels ago. While this basic point is, in fact, true, it ignores that spells two or more levels lower than a wizard's highest are generally support spells, instead of the wizard's go-to spells. Second, the Warlock's mechanics are somewhat screwed-up. Hideous Blow was poorly written to the point of being useless, for example. Eldritch Blast is a really bad attack form after about 5th level, as it rapidly decreases in terms of damage as a percentage of total hit points. Since the blast can't be used more than once a round, it absolutely needs to go up in damage every level, just to remain useful, and even then it would still be getting worse, as Con bonuses tend to increase over levels. Third, the Warlock gets few level-appropriate offensive invocations. Glancing at the list, of the Least ones, only Miasmic Cloud and Baleful Utterance are any good at any level and don't remain useful for long. Of the Lesser, only Hungry Darkness is good at the level you get it. The Greater ones tend to be the best of the lot, with Chilling Tentacles, Wall of Perilous Flame, Vitriolic Blast, and Noxious Blast. None of the Dark ones are good offensive abilities. Between this problem and the Blast having a sharp downward slope of usefulness, the Warlock just plain can't do very much offensively, which means he's pretty much a liability in combat. Fourth, the Warlock is weak defensively. They can't effectively wear armor, and the defensive abilities they get are a freaking joke. Their DR essentially covers the bonus damage from the expected magic weapons for their level. Some of the defensive invocations are decent, but they should generally be gained earlier and taking them hurts the character's already anemic offense. Really, the only role the Warlock is any good at is scout, and that's just not good enough to take up an entire character space in the party, especially since other classes scout either just as well, or better, as a non-central class ability. And unlike most of those classes, the Warlock is ill-equipped to survive a scouting mission that goes wrong.
Leo 09-23-07, 09:53 PM	Ok, I'm going to try to be nice here... Hahaha oh wow. You really are as dumb as you first seemed. Try putting things like Warlocks and Psychic Warriors in parties at 12th level and above, and you realise that, excluding crazy tricks*, they can't actually face the monsters. Like, at all. Either the full caster does all the work (usually by casting "I Win" and ending the battle in one round), or they don't have a full caster and everyone dies. *That's why the multi-flask acid throwing rogue is so common: if they're not hurling that much touch-attack sneak attack damage around and relying on Abuse Magic Device, they're not playing the same game. At high levels, they stop being useful at all. And this makes baby Kord cry. Okay, I lied, I didn't even try to be nice. Sooo, either one guy alone is killing the enemy in 1 round or else everybody in the party is awfully slaughtered. Never heard of middle ground? Battles can take more than 1 round, you know? EDIT:Also, eldritch blast can be buffed with maximize and quicken spell like ability. And honestly, when you can just sprout tentacles from the ground or rise armies of undeads in a matter of seconds I don't know why you care so much about shooting fire at a single target. D&D isn't only about damage.
zae 09-24-07, 07:12 AM	Unless you're doing a LOT of it, D&D isn't about damage at all - everyone knows direct damage is the worst way to hurt people past the early levels. If you want to win a fight, you either tell them "Save or Die", "Save or Suck" or "Don't Save, Just Die". This includes Dominate and the like - why kill someone when you can make them kill other people for you? And there is no middle ground in regular D&D. That's the problem. You seriously have "People who have the ability to win the game, like, whenever they want." and "People who hang around and think they're playing the same game." And the monsters are designed to fight the first. The second group can't survive for long against these monsters, they aren't effective at hurting the monsters (some can hold the enemies up a bit, ******* them off a little and letting the big players do their thing) and there is little they can do to properly contribute to the party.
Mordar 09-24-07, 11:25 AM	Hahaha oh wow. You really are as dumb as you first seemed. Try putting things like Warlocks and Psychic Warriors in parties at 12th level and above, and you realise that, excluding crazy tricks*, they can't actually face the monsters. Like, at all. Either the full caster does all the work (usually by casting "I Win" and ending the battle in one round), or they don't have a full caster and everyone dies. oh well, you are right, we should just ban every class that is not wizard, CoDzilla, psion or artificer, what's the point if everything is useless right? I strongly disagree at the psychic warrior tho, they are usefull at every level, and are a good asset to a 4-man party, if you don't believe me, try looking at the extreme case with the king of smack from the optimizers forum but then again, the only base class that I consider useless at high levels is the fighter, in that Regard I agree with everything you said above
Leo 09-24-07, 01:57 PM	Unless you're doing a LOT of it, D&D isn't about damage at all - everyone knows direct damage is the worst way to hurt people past the early levels. If you want to win a fight, you either tell them "Save or Die", "Save or Suck" or "Don't Save, Just Die". This includes Dominate and the like - why kill someone when you can make them kill other people for you? But the warlock gets save or dies(charm monster), save or suck(utterdark blast) and don't save, just die(tenacious plague, the dead walk). If nothing else, well, go craft yourself some wands and staffs of the most badass spells you can think. It's not like there is anything out of the reach of the warlock.
IdleAltruism 09-24-07, 04:20 PM	oh well, you are right, we should just ban every class that is not wizard, CoDzilla, psion or artificer, what's the point if everything is useless right? You forgot druid(most would probably disagree about the psion)! ;) The versatility and potential of those classes can break an average game.If we want to balance classes we have to decide what to balance them against. I would argue that these are the easiest classes to break a game with, therefore they should not be the base that we compare everything else to. Your middle ground classes physic warrior/warblade etc etc can be useful without being overpowering. I consider the warlock is on the weaker side of the average class without PrCs. Really what this means is its easier to screw up when building them. There are several combinations that are very effective for a warlock, I would suggest anyone who thinks warlocks are weak to actually do some homework on them and do a few searches in the CharOP boards. Alot of "Wow this is broken" or "Wow this sucks" comes from first hand experience or simple ignorance. First hand experience doesn't count for much because its very situational. They suck because of X, if we substitute X for something else would they still suck? Sorry for the rant. I think this thread has gotten off topic and I'm sorry for my part. Lets leave the warlock bashing to warlock bashing threads and focus more on OP?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-24-07, 04:51 PM	I like it. It's something I might actually play, unlike the CA one. It does sort of rely on the rest of the party being played by half-competent players though. Which isn't as common as one might think.
Mordar 09-24-07, 10:17 PM	You forgot druid(most would probably disagree about the psion)! ;) it's included in the term "codzilla" you know "druid or cleric "zilla"" anyway, I don't consider the warlock weak at all, obviously it WILL be weak if we compare it to codzilla or wizard, I mean which class isn't?, but warlock fits just the right 5th man party niche which adds more variety instead of "killing and not killing", and if we talk about something usefull at higher levels I know you all have seen the power of a Warlock/hellfire warlock/ur-priest/eldricht disciple :cool:
IdleAltruism 09-24-07, 11:03 PM	The reason I said its slightly weak without PrCs is because new players tend to screw them up pretty bad. In my group the very firsts warlocks in higher level games were horrible, mostly because of bad choices on their part. Its very easy to build a warlock poorly and takes a little more work to make them good, compared to a cleric that prepares one spell and becomes a fighter :D . I've seen a few good fighter builds that could be useful in high powered games. Thats what makes the class weak in most peoples eyes, the lack of choices, either do this or don't play them. That is an extreme case and there are many viable builds for a warlocks. it's included in the term "codzilla" you know "druid or cleric "zilla"" Ah my mistake, I guess subconsciously whenever I see codzilla I see divine metamagicked cleric and just forget the druid.
Khatoblepas 09-25-07, 08:01 AM	In my opinion, this class isn't that great: - The flavor is non-mutable. I want Fey/Eladrin bloodlines too, you know. - It's 15 levels long, and a base class. It needs to be 20 levels long. It's a base class! - It requires a Non-Outsider, but it turns into an Outsider at level 15, thus disqualifying itself from the class. Why can't Aasimar and Tieflings be Warlocks? It's quite thematically appropriate. - The Spheres have 9th level spells at will. I have issues with all of them, but Heresy (Gate/Miracle without XP cost?), Carnage (Implosion at will - force Fort saves or die Once every round for 20 rounds a pop for free, all damage is vile damage - VILE EB at will IS BAD), and the one with loads of animation spells (It doesn't require material components.) This isn't an issue just with Bubbles! It's ALL OF THEM. - The EB's base damage is balanced versus an optimised rogue, rather than a stock one. 10d6 from 60ft away, and can be made into AoE is better for survivability than 40d6 within 30ft of a monster. Ack, man. You even made an expensive to run build :\ Eek.
rastlin_of_the_tomes 09-25-07, 08:43 AM	the first warlock didnt suck at all, you are only looking at numbers anyway. and the rogue thing where he needs to have the other guy not have his dex bonus, have you ever heard of INF. BLACK TENICTLES. that could set you up so much easyer than buying all that crap for him and allow him to buy more throwable objects so he can do it more. plus,he is a great counter speller if need be, just ready one of his TWO dispell magics, and one heals the warlock, and the other hurts the caster. dont think the warlock as a numbers class. its a smart man's class, and you cant get that as far as i can see. sorry if that was rude, but its true.
Kresalak 09-26-07, 09:03 AM	In my opinion, this class isn't that great: - The flavor is non-mutable. I want Fey/Eladrin bloodlines too, you know. Why? Neither of those things have anything in common with the mythos of getting demonic power. I have no idea why a Warlock class should have those-you're looking for an Enchantress or something. - It's 15 levels long, and a base class. It needs to be 20 levels long. It's a base class! Frank's Fire Mage was 15 levels, which led me to thinking of the "hey, maybe a high level Warlock can actually be a Fiend instead!" thing. - It requires a Non-Outsider, but it turns into an Outsider at level 15, thus disqualifying itself from the class. However, a Warlock who later becomes an Outsider can still be a Warlock. Why can't Aasimar and Tieflings be Warlocks? It's quite thematically appropriate. The idea is that they can be True Fiends or whatever. - The Spheres have 9th level spells at will. I have issues with all of them, but Heresy (Gate/Miracle without XP cost?), Carnage (Implosion at will - force Fort saves or die Once every round for 20 rounds a pop for free, all damage is vile damage - VILE EB at will IS BAD), and the one with loads of animation spells (It doesn't require material components.) This isn't an issue just with Bubbles! It's ALL OF THEM. If it bothers you you can have the 7-9th level spells max out at 5/day. But really, Vile damage isn't a problem-no one heals in combat, and if you're fighting something then chances are you're going to kill it. And as a Supernatural ability, Eldritch Blast doesn't get to do Vile damage. - The EB's base damage is balanced versus an optimised rogue, rather than a stock one. 10d6 from 60ft away, and can be made into AoE is better for survivability than 40d6 within 30ft of a monster. Ack, man. You even made an expensive to run build :\ Eek. 10d6 to an area at level 20 is what Wizards weren't doing 10 levels ago because it wasn't worth their time. Seriously, that's Fireball and no one cares.
Khatoblepas 09-26-07, 11:15 AM	Why? Neither of those things have anything in common with the mythos of getting demonic power. I have no idea why a Warlock class should have those-you're looking for an Enchantress or something. Pacts with the Faerie? Imbued power from the heavens? Base classes aren't supposed to have a single flavor - just look at the sorcerer (Draconic/Celestial/Demonic/Abberant/Etc)! You can make pacts with more than demons, you know. Just demons is silly. Frank's Fire Mage was 15 levels, which led me to thinking of the "hey, maybe a high level Warlock can actually be a Fiend instead!" thing. How does it interact with epic levels, then? o_O 15 level classes leave a bad taste in the mouth. The power curve is all skewed and you get the capstone at 15th or not at all. The idea is that they can be True Fiends or whatever. But they're not true fiends. They have a demonic/celestial bloodline o_O, but they aren't fiends. Besides, what if they WANT to make pacts instead of becoming demons? If it bothers you you can have the 7-9th level spells max out at 5/day. But really, Vile damage isn't a problem-no one heals in combat, and if you're fighting something then chances are you're going to kill it. And as a Supernatural ability, Eldritch Blast doesn't get to do Vile damage. That's still material-componentless Miracle, non counterspellable stuff, and what about if you're fighting a Warlock? DM: The Warlock blasts you with horrible hellfire. Player 1: Argh! Now I'm in negatives! Player 2: I cast Heal on him. DM: Sorry, you ain't in a Hallowed area. Player 1: Now I'm dead! 10d6 to an area at level 20 is what Wizards weren't doing 10 levels ago because it wasn't worth their time. Seriously, that's Fireball and no one cares. THey weren't doing it 10 levels ago because it wastes their resources. What does a Warlock waste apart from an action? Besides, it's typeless damage, not Fire Damage :P. And what of the essences? I'd prefer battlefield control (impeding movement with AoE) to be added as essences than just powering up the EB. The EB is a fallback weapon, not their main class feature :P
maskimus 09-26-07, 02:53 PM	My 14th level Warlock was in a battle this past Saturday with a CR 25 beastie,(I don't remember the name, but it was from the MM5 and the DM said it ate Tarrasque's for breakfast!). I hit it with an Eldritch Blast/Noxious Blast, it rolled a '1' for its fort save, and we ultimately trashed it. So who says CAr Warlocks are worthless!:P
Kresalak 09-26-07, 06:28 PM	Pacts with the Faerie? Imbued power from the heavens? Base classes aren't supposed to have a single flavor - just look at the sorcerer (Draconic/Celestial/Demonic/Abberant/Etc)! You can make pacts with more than demons, you know. Just demons is silly. But that would require writing an entirely new class. Seriously, that's not the class I wrote, and I don't get why people expect How does it interact with epic levels, then? o_O 15 level classes leave a bad taste in the mouth. The power curve is all skewed and you get the capstone at 15th or not at all. But this class doesn't have a capstone. Literally, at 15th level you get another Sphere and +1d6 to Eldritch Blast, and the ability to take new classes. But I think EB needs to be 1d6/level, so I'm going to change that. But they're not true fiends. They have a demonic/celestial bloodline o_O, but they aren't fiends. Besides, what if they WANT to make pacts instead of becoming demons? But they are demons. They have the Outsider type and everything. That's still material-componentless Miracle, non counterspellable stuff, and what about if you're fighting a Warlock? Who ever uses Counterspell, seriously? And Miracle comes at 19th level where I don't even care anymore. That's seriously 2 levels after Druids can start casting a Supernatural Wish every single round forever. DM: The Warlock blasts you with horrible hellfire. Player 1: Argh! Now I'm in negatives! Player 2: I cast Heal on him. DM: Sorry, you ain't in a Hallowed area. Player 1: Now I'm dead! Healing in combat is a horrible strategy. Vile damage is literally a flavor ability. THey weren't doing it 10 levels ago because it wastes their resources. What does a Warlock waste apart from an action? Besides, it's typeless damage, not Fire Damage :P. And what of the essences? I'd prefer battlefield control (impeding movement with AoE) to be added as essences than just powering up the EB. The EB is a fallback weapon, not their main class feature :P At 10th level Fireball isn't even useful. It's not useful at 5th level, and it's definitely not useful at 20th. Seriously, how you can think of "weaker than a 10th level Wizard" as being a 20th level ability?
Vadin 09-26-07, 07:36 PM	Weaker than a 10th level wizard?!? Can a level 10 wizard Time Stop at will and shoot a bunch of 20D6 EBs? And, in that same time, can he summon a bunch of monsters for free as at will abilities and tell his limitless horde of <10 HD minions to swarm all over the enemy?
Kresalak 09-26-07, 07:46 PM	I was talking about the old Warlock and his 20th level ability to deal 10d6 in an area of effect.
IdleAltruism 09-26-07, 08:44 PM	But that would require writing an entirely new class. Seriously, that's not the class I wrote, and I don't get why people expect Because the original warlock does have that and you attempted to "revise" it and did not include it? But this class doesn't have a capstone. Literally, at 15th level you get another Sphere and +1d6 to Eldritch Blast, and the ability to take new classes. But I think EB needs to be 1d6/level, so I'm going to change that. spheres are horribly rigged take them out if you really want to make a balanced class ditch em. 5/day does not fix them, they aren't balanced at all. And Miracle comes at 19th level where I don't even care anymore. That's seriously 2 levels after Druids can start casting a Supernatural Wish every single round forever. Exactly. You just don't care, you throw a mockery of a class at us and want us to agree with you. You haven't successfully defended any feature of this class. The only point you came close to was eldritch blast. The class has potential as an eldritch blaster master, maybe as a 15 level PrC, but it would need alot more good class abilities. This is a good rough draft, but its definitely not acceptable as a final product. Despite our best efforts to help you, you blatantly disregard our advice. This class needs ALOT of work. Healing in combat is a horrible strategy. Vile damage is literally a flavor ability. I've had many BBEG run and lick their wounds after a brutal encounter.....Vile can be devastating(epic level it would be a nightmare). AND this can be an NPC, dealing out massive vile damage to your players is not cool at all. Try not to be so narrow minded coming to these conclusions. There are many different style games and a generic base class should be able to fit in most of them. Please take what I've said into consideration and don't be afraid to ask for help. We tend to become very close to our work and its usually best to get outside opinions.
Khatoblepas 09-26-07, 08:59 PM	Whup, Ninjaed. But that would require writing an entirely new class. Seriously, that's not the class I wrote, and I don't get why people expect Because it's, uh, a Warlock revision? And Base Classes aren't supposed to have extremely specific flavors? But they are demons. They have the Outsider type and everything. So demons can't make a pact with other demons in order to gain power? Who ever uses Counterspell, seriously? And Miracle comes at 19th level where I don't even care anymore. That's seriously 2 levels after Druids can start casting a Supernatural Wish every single round forever. Counterspelling is a viable method of nullifying spellcasters. It makes them waste their slots and actions, making their efforts wasted. True, it's not the optimal choice, but it is a choice that people can use. Also: Shapechange Doesn't Make Anything Less Broken. I'm assuming you're talking about Shapechange. Please, that kind of gouda isn't a balancing stick. It's a giant mallet. Don't tell me your class is balanced based on cheese. Healing in combat is a horrible strategy. Vile damage is literally a flavor ability. Okay then, how about right after combat? Party didn't expect it, Cleric didn't prep Consecrate. Characters in negatives die. Characters aren't one-man-optimisation machines with the solution to everything. What if the Cleric was actually a druid, without Consecrate on their list? Characters die, no save. What if the cleric was evil, and didn't have access to consecrate? What if it was the cleric who was dropped to negatives? At 10th level Fireball isn't even useful. It's not useful at 5th level, and it's definitely not useful at 20th. Seriously, how you can think of "weaker than a 10th level Wizard" as being a 20th level ability? But it's not just 10d6. With the right tactics, it becomes ~20d6, which averages out at 60 damage of typeless damage, which is pretty good for an archer. Which is what EB is for. Archery. Blasting. NOT BEING A WIZARD. Why not just use the Sorcerer and say "I GOT MY POWERS FROM DEEEEEMONS" if you're that worried about being left behind. The CO board can do a lot with EB, if you look hard enough ;). Also, why do you assume that people want a ludicruous amount of power on the level of 9th level spells? Wouldn't it be that much easier to tone 9th level spells down? Fun mechanics, rather than powerful ones. Why can't we play weaker classes and enjoy the game, in spite of the overwhelming "Druid 20 being more powerful" thing? Not everyone wants "the most optimal choice". In fact, the most optimal choice is boring (yawn, wildshape into Dire Bear, yawn Shapechange to gain infinite wishes), and removes any kind of challenge from the game. This Warlock does that. It's boring, because it gives you all your abilities on a silver platter, and then some. Why are you dismissing all options that aren't completely optimal (in your opinion)? Why are you balancing classes based on the top tier of abilities and majorly tweaked out middling classes that are built to prove your point? And finally, just because I'm curious, what kind of campaigns do you play? What mood have they got? What classes do people play? What's the aim of the campaigns?
Neeek 09-26-07, 11:03 PM	Also, why do you assume that people want a ludicruous amount of power on the level of 9th level spells? Wouldn't it be that much easier to tone 9th level spells down? No, it's not. First of all, it's not just the 9th level spells that are the problem. It's all the spells, and I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that rewriting the spell list is easier than raising the power level of the less powerful classes. Seriously. Look at the page count on the spell list (in the PHB, 104) as compared to the page count on the classes (in the PHB, 33, and that includes a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff like example characters). And there are more and more spells in every supplement, whereas there certainly aren't base classes in every supplement. Seriously, when they decided to balance everything on a druid who is using, but not truly abusing shapechange, Frank and K didn't do so because of lack of foresight. They knew it would be hard enough without trying to remake the spell list.
IdleAltruism 09-27-07, 12:03 AM	No, it's not. First of all, it's not just the 9th level spells that are the problem. It's all the spells, and I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that rewriting the spell list is easier than raising the power level of the less powerful classes. Simple. Either change all the problem spells or change everything else. Troublesome spells like the polymorph bunch are generally game breaking. This means you'd had to rework the game around the spells following your logic.... Seriously. Look at the page count on the spell list (in the PHB, 104) as compared to the page count on the classes (in the PHB, 33, and that includes a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff like example characters). Look at all the monsters and classes. Thats around 40 or more classes you'd have to rework+ however many monsters. Spells is easily the best choice to rework opposed to everything else..... And there are more and more spells in every supplement, whereas there certainly aren't base classes in every supplement. Base classes require alot more work then spells, which your examples proves. Both tasks of revision would be tremendous undertakings and both probably unnecessary. It would be a much simpler task to nerf the troublesome classes(wizard/cleric/druid/artifacer etc) then to redo the rest(classes or spells).
Neeek 09-27-07, 12:34 AM	This means you'd had to rework the game around the spells following your logic.... No, it's just easiest to rework the games around the spells. They have the most game text. Look at all the monsters and classes. Thats around 40 or more classes you'd have to rework+ however many monsters. Spells is easily the best choice to rework opposed to everything else..... Wow, 40 classes, at less than 3 pages per class (let's see (33/12)*40 works out to 110 pages and just over the amount for spells in the PHB alone, for those playing at home) or thous ands of spells over hundreds of pages. Tough choice there. The monsters need to be reworked regardless of which way you go, so that's not an issue. Base classes require alot more work then spells, which your examples proves. Both tasks of revision would be tremendous undertakings and both probably unnecessary. It would be a much simpler task to nerf the troublesome classes(wizard/cleric/druid/artifacer etc) then to redo the rest(classes or spells). Seriously, do you have any idea how easy it is to make up a class? I can do it start to finish in about an hour and I'm comparatively slow at it compared to the people who are good at it. Nerfing classes is far harder than raising the weaker ones to their level because the things making the strong classes strong happens to be the most complicated part of the system.
Leo 09-27-07, 04:28 AM	No, it's not. First of all, it's not just the 9th level spells that are the problem. It's all the spells, and I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that rewriting the spell list is easier than raising the power level of the less powerful classes. Seriously. Look at the page count on the spell list (in the PHB, 104) as compared to the page count on the classes (in the PHB, 33, and that includes a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff like example characters). And there are more and more spells in every supplement, whereas there certainly aren't base classes in every supplement. Seriously, when they decided to balance everything on a druid who is using, but not truly abusing shapechange, Frank and K didn't do so because of lack of foresight. They knew it would be hard enough without trying to remake the spell list. This could be true... If Frank and K actually bothered to balance on a druid. But if you look closely you'll actually notice their stuff is stronger than druid. Whitout even needing to optimize. If the CO boards were to really bother to optimize Frank and K's stuff they would put the druid, the cleric, and all wotc material except pun-pun to shame. EDIT:Also, notice how dealing only vile damage makes regeneration worthless, kicks the crusader in the guts, and makes any bad luck on the enemy lethal, since healing is impossible.
IdleAltruism 09-27-07, 11:37 AM	No, it's just easiest to rework the games around the spells. They have the most game text. No its not. You have to redo classes/other spells(depending on what spells you're using, because all spells aren't balanced to each other)/monsters its just a mess. As opposed to nerfing a handful of classes? The druid is a good example, the shapeshifting variant in the PHB2 was well done and makes for a fairly balanced class. The monsters need to be reworked regardless of which way you go, so that's not an issue. Not necessarily. They work ok as they are. Not perfect but they serve our purpose. Some need a little tweaking but all in all they are serviceable at the very least. Spells in general could easily be reworked and a good portion of them wouldn't need reworking. Save or lose/suck, polymorph, things like timestop/contingency would be the major reworks. Everything else might get minor tweaks here and there. Seriously, do you have any idea how easy it is to make up a class? I can do it start to finish in about an hour and I'm comparatively slow at it compared to the people who are good at it. Nerfing classes is far harder than raising the weaker ones to their level because the things making the strong classes strong happens to be the most complicated part of the system. Thats why there are so many rewrites/new classes and the vast majority of them suck. You have to do alot of work to test base classes, sure you can write them up quick, whether they are any good is another question......this class here is a good example. Again this is getting a little off topic.
sigma999 10-04-07, 04:47 AM	Bumpin to show my appreciation for this nice Warlock remake. I still wish it had a different name, though. And maybe more elements than just Fire and Hellfire?
Kresalak 10-04-07, 06:23 AM	You get Unholy at 14. But I suppose you could do "cold" and "hellfrost" or something like that. Maybe electricity and whatever, but that doesn't really fit the flavor. The point is that you have a commonly resisted element, which you lose 7 damage to pierce resistance (3 point net), or 14 to pierce immunity.
jradd777 10-04-07, 08:16 AM	May want to change the Eldritch Blast to a standard action instead of an attack action, or else this warlock gets 60d6 points of damage at level 20 each round at will, requiring only 3 ranged touch attacks and allowing no save. (If I understand how actions work correctly, anyway) Yeah, I believe there is a Monster feat in MM that might in this case allow an extra eldritch blast per round because it quickens spell-like abilities down and things like that. Edit: Geez, I didn't realize this thread was this long, sorry if someone has already mentioned this.
zhaunil 10-07-07, 04:09 PM	Alright well, for starters I love the way the OP has consistently tried to push the entire string into a flame war by being as rude and condescending as possible every step of the way. Don't ask for feed back and then troll your own post. That's besides the point, for the class it self - 1.) I agree all core classes are 20 level classes and should not have a restriction that flat out prohibits anyone from joining. Making it a 15 level class and saying someone else did it too is not proof. The person you're quoting is not a WoTC developer so I don't really care what they did. If you want to play in the system they're making they have their own web page and message board, go nuts. This is the Wizards of the Coast board. 2.) Hinged it on a flaky system with the spheres. I'm not gonna touch it since it's not WoTC but assuming it was actually balanced and not just some one trying to prove he can make things even more rediculous. Stop trying to say you're not responsible for what's in the mechanic. You put it in your class you need to justify it in your class. If you agree it's broken post a fix for it or take it out. 3.) Leave blast untyped low damage first, then give it fire slightly higher damage (enough to punch through resistance so it'll break even, but pure extra damage on things that don't have resistance or an immunity. Something like +1 or +2 damage per die on the fire blast would be fine), and then for the third I don't care, really don't need a third but a second energy type would be fine. If you want to leave resistances in make it so the blast does the energy types that it gets resistance in. For example, if you get 10 resistance fire and electricity then make it so you can do fire or electric damage with your blasts. It makes sense since you would want to make sure you're immune/resistant to your own attacks, thats why alot of fiends have fire based SLA's. 4.) Fix the fiendish cohort. Put some limits in there, giving the same limit as a leadership cohort would be fine since you already brought up leadership.. Might want to change it to any any evil outsider so it can be Devils, Demons, Fiends, whatever. By the way, stop trying to say "I know everything about the class is evil but they don't have to be evil". It's just silly. We already have paladins for good, druids for neutral, why not warlocks for evil since thats the way you geared this whole thing. Stop beating around the bush and trying to leave outs so you can combo into even more broken things. 5.) The class looks like it belongs as a prestige class. It's just too many high level abilities packed into one box. Eldritch blast also advances too quickly, I would recommend the SA advancement pattern since that seems to work out alright. If it were a prestige class I'd be more comfortable with the wide sweeping SLAs (Still would need to fix your spheres to take out the rediculous stuff). One of the nice balancing things on the current warlock is that while yes they do get unlimited SLAs most of them are not game breaking. Abusable maybe but you have to work a bit to break the game with them. All that said I might consider it as a prestige class, assuming spheres are fixed, but not as written for a core class. It doesn't meet the requirements no matter how much you try and badger people to say it does. It seems the only people that are wholeheartedly agreeing with you are the people that are already fans of Frank & K which goes back to my earlier topic of take this to their board. If you want it to be considers with the WoTC stuff then make it fit into the WoTC templates. If the spheres are any indication this might fit in perfectly into the horrifically imbalanced system that Frank & K are developing, I haven't looked at their stuff so all I have is the spheres posted here and the ramblings of a couple of their fans to base it off of but the concept you guys keep spouting for their rewrites does not sound like they have a good concept of game balance just a sense for escalation.
Leress 10-07-07, 05:38 PM	It seems the only people that are wholeheartedly agreeing with you are the people that are already fans of Frank & K which goes back to my earlier topic of take this to their board. Well, the class was started at the Gaming Den and was brought over here for more eyes to see. If you want it to be considers with the WoTC stuff then make it fit into the WoTC templates. There are many classes posted in the Classes and Prestige class that don't fit into WOTC templates that are meant to be use with WoTC material. If the spheres are any indication this might fit in perfectly into the horrifically imbalanced system that Frank & K are developing, I haven't looked at their stuff so all I have is the spheres posted here and the ramblings of a couple of their fans to base it off of but the concept you guys keep spouting for their rewrites does not sound like they have a good concept of game balance just a sense for escalation. Isn't that slightly disingenuous, since you haven't read the material. You can't really say how unbalanced it is without at least reading it. Here is the stuff they posted here... Races of War- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572 Tome of Necromancy- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=632562 Tome of Fiends- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646241 Dungeonomicon- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=9483435
zhaunil 10-07-07, 07:52 PM	Yeah read races of war after I posted that and I now stand by my earlier comment even more. I'm not saying their way is wrong it's just not balanced with the way the rest of the game works. I guess if you have a fighter going foil happy then yes, unlimited time stop is balanced :rolleyes:
Ecureuil_Diabolique 10-07-07, 08:15 PM	Yeah read races of war after I posted that and I now stand by my earlier comment even more. I'm not saying their way is wrong it's just not balanced with the way the rest of the game works. I guess if you have a fighter going foil happy then yes, unlimited time stop is balanced :rolleyes: While I don't have any games that reach high levels very often or have power gamers, I understand Frank & K's reasoning (Or I'd like to think so at least). If you (or your players) power game enough, all the spellcasters can dominate the game and make it practically unplayable for the other classes like the fighter. While this is solely on the players' choices, it can still happen and Frank & K want everything more equal, so that everyone can "break" the typical game relatively equally. I think that was right... someone from The Gaming Den can correct me.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-07-07, 08:22 PM	I like this warlock. I wish I knew about it when one of my players was playing a warlock. I would have rather him played this than try to pull a fast one on my saying that Mortal Hunter works an unlimited number of times per day and he can take it three times for +6d6 on every eldritch blast. Seriously, I'd rather someone play something that was genuinely good then cheat to get something that's good.
Leress 10-07-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah read races of war after I posted that and I now stand by my earlier comment even more. I'm not saying their way is wrong it's just not balanced with the way the rest of the game works. I guess if you have a fighter going foil happy then yes, unlimited time stop is balanced :rolleyes: Actually it is balanced to how the game works if play in higher level games were wizards and other full casters are taking things down with a snap of the fingers. Also (off topic) You can't go foil happy since it takes an Immediate action to do and at higher levels the fighter can only do it twice. Most enemies at those levels will have more than two actions and are still able to do something. (like dragons has a lot more than two attacks in a full attack) Also about the unlimited time stop Frank and K suggested that you may just make it 5/day instead of at will.
IdleAltruism 10-07-07, 09:14 PM	Actually it is balanced to how the game works if play in higher level games were wizards and other full casters are taking things down with a snap of the fingers. No it really isn't and nothing you've said proves otherwise. Generally at high level save or die/suck spells really aren't much different then an extra round of combat(maybe). I've personally never really got the whole "brokenness" of save or die spells, monsters last a few rounds at the most(maybe one, if the party focuses fire). The monsters going to die with damage or by making a save, to me the sure thing is the damage. Also about the unlimited time stop Frank and K suggested that you may just make it 5/day instead of at will. Suggesting it and not implementing it says alot. The system needs quite a bit of work as it is and 5/day doesn't fix it. Time stop isn't bad on this class(its actually not a good choice at all for this class) but unlimited times per day is very broken. The author realizing this and not changing it hurts his or her credibility. This class is still in need of alot of work.
sigma999 10-08-07, 09:35 PM	2.) Hinged it on a flaky system with the spheres. I'm not gonna touch it since it's not WoTC but assuming it was actually balanced and not just some one trying to prove he can make things even more rediculous. Stop trying to say you're not responsible for what's in the mechanic. You put it in your class you need to justify it in your class. If you agree it's broken post a fix for it or take it out. You lost my respect, if you had ever strove to attain it. House rules hold this game together. The rest of your 'argument', while I suppose is valid, I just don't care right now. That, and you're trolling.
Leo 10-09-07, 07:01 AM	Someone who claims that wizards of the coasts made a broken game, and then goes out and publishes an homebrew ability that automatically wins the game(aka unlimited time stop) whitout need of any optimization, combo or other specific ability whatsoever can't really call himself a good designer, not even decent. Yeah, the game is broken. So let's make it even MORE broken. Players shouldn't even need to use their brains to break the game. Let's put all those thousands of damage per turn, auto wins and infinite combos in a silver platter. And then let's say it's elegant and balanced and more refined words. It's this you want to do? The game as it is may not be perfect, but if K was in lead of D&D, this game would have died a long time ago, house rules or not. At least now ou have to think a little before finding the broken combinations.
Kresalak 10-09-07, 01:03 PM	I don't really get what the problem with at will Time Stop is. None of the classes that have access to it can abuse it in any way-they have preset options that are not too varied and mostly offensive, and cannot even be used in a Time Stop. The reason Time Stop is bad is because Wizards have a spell list that comprises hundreds of pages of text, and every action they take is already broken; Time Stop merely gives them an extra 1d4+1 actions to take. What is a Warlock even going to do with 1d4+1 rounds where he can't attack people?
Neeek 10-09-07, 01:07 PM	It's this you want to do? The game as it is may not be perfect, but if K was in lead of D&D, this game would have died a long time ago, house rules or not. At least now ou have to think a little before finding the broken combinations. If K was lead designer for D&D, the game wouldn't have been broken in the first place, and if it was, he'd have fixed it when the problems were discovered. Unlike the WotC designers, K doesn't have a huge ego and can admit it when he screws up. Frank and K's rules don't really make the game more broken, they make simply level the playing field so that every class can actually contribute. While the recurring timestop is probably a bad idea (and more specifically, I'd probably selected specific sphere that the Warlock could use, rather than granting full access), it's really only broken if you can do unfair things during the timestop.
IdleAltruism 10-09-07, 05:16 PM	Unlimited time stop=no one gets to do anything? How is this not broken? You could infinitely stop time with a warforged.....This isn't a problem???? There are so many possibilities for abuse....and like I said this is very weak in the hands of this class....but still broken. Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat. You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop. Steal anything....Being virtually unkillable.....Dig really deep holes.......build a crane with a 50,000 lbs boulder over an enemy. You can use your imagination....you'd have as much time as needed to do any of this. The whole sphere system broken. Giving classes broken abilities doesn't make them on par with other classes with broken abilities. It means those abilities are broken! This isn't a Frank and K thread, this class just happens to implement some of their work. The way their contribution affects this class should be the subject of discussion. And its not just time stop, its virtually all the spheres....Miracle at will with no XP cost....yeah thats not broken....right....Most of them have very broken abilities at will and 5/day won't fix that. Time stop is just one of the more obviously broken ones :D . The system itself is very flawed and doesn't mesh well with regular D&D.
Flamewarrior 10-10-07, 11:23 AM	See original here (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688&postnum=93&highlight=intercession%20pool).What the fvck, Frank? You say at-will miracle's broken, and put it in nonetheless? A valid criticism. Our intention with miracle was always to create an "Intercession Pool" with the Tome of Virtue. That was lost with Keith's Hard Drive and now he's in Law School, so that'll be a long time getting done. With the rate we had been writing at the time (with Keith laid up with a bullet hole in his foot and me having reasonably fixed life schedule) it looked like Tome of Virtue was actually very close so we didn't have to worry about it. But stuff happened. The PHB Miracle is every bit as broken as gate or wish. And while most of the worst offenses of the latter spells were specifically addressed in Tome of Fiends, Miracle wasn't because it was supposed to be thrown down later. We just never got around to it. --- As for forcecage, it's actually not much of a problem. Of all the monsters in the Monster Manual at CR 13, only the Iron Golem can actually be sequestered in a Forcecage for all eternity. Everything else is either too big to cage (Storm Giant), teleports (Gelugon), or can destroy a cage with part of an action (Beholder). And frankly, Iron Golems suck my balls anyway, so I don't really give a damn if people can figure out some way to bypass them. They've got a +0 Spot and Listen for heaven's sake! You can just not fight them if you want. Forcecage is frequently brought up as a problem spell because forcecage + cloudkill will automatically kill the PHB Fighter without rolling dice or allowing a save. That's a problem with the PHB Fighter, and not especially the spell. As apparently CR 13 creatures are not supposed to lose more than a Standard Action dealing with the consequences of a forcecage. --- I actually don't understand why people latch onto fireball at first level as a big deal. It's like getting Great Cleave for your Shortbow once a day. I'm amazingly unimpressed. That being said, some of the later spells really do get unfortunately powerful in at-will quantities. Usually not more than you could already get from Chain Binding. But unfortunate nonetheless. If I were to do it all over again, I'd have the triple sphere grant 5/day for your top spell-like and unlimited uses for all the lower level ones. But considering how few of the spheres explode when you throw at-wills at them, it might actually just be better to throw the Oberoni Fallacy at it and be done with it. -Frank So, miracle just never got fixed (and the warlock, unlike the wizard, doesn't have anything really terrible to do with its time stops).
Leo 10-10-07, 02:56 PM	If K was lead designer for D&D, the game wouldn't have been broken in the first place, and if it was, he'd have fixed it when the problems were discovered. Unlike the WotC designers, K doesn't have a huge ego and can admit it when he screws up. Frank and K's rules don't really make the game more broken, they make simply level the playing field so that every class can actually contribute. While the recurring timestop is probably a bad idea (and more specifically, I'd probably selected specific sphere that the Warlock could use, rather than granting full access), it's really only broken if you can do unfair things during the timestop. Well, wotc owns an uber rich company. K, last time I checked, doesn't. In the worst scenario wotc may have a big ego, but it stills prints good material, since people buy it. If D&D was so broken as people claim, then we wouldn't have all those people trying to "fix" it. You don't work to fix something you don't like and don't need. You complained about clerics and druids don't being sexy enough and they gave you natural spell and divine metamagic(natural spell wasn't in 3.0). You complained about vancian casters and they gave you psionics. You complained about regular melees and they gave you ToB. Druids still weren't sexy enough so they gave you planar sheperd. This is what is great about wotc. It knows how to please the majority audience. It gives you plenty of choices and you pick what you like and use it. K's material, on the other hand, is directed towards the biggest powergamers of all. He fully suports infinite loops and actually makes the druid and cleric even more strong, so I really don't see how in heavens it is more balanced than regular wotc material. K doesn't care about the majority of the audience who is happy playing with fighters and rogues and rangers and barbarians and other so called "weak" classes. His class don't take any work to use effectively at all, just go out there and blast everything in your way with your uber powers whitout even needing to look for synergies. And this isn't really fun for most people(the reason nobody ever played pun-pun).
IdleAltruism 10-10-07, 03:13 PM	See original here (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688&postnum=93&highlight=intercession%20pool).So, miracle just never got fixed (and the warlock, unlike the wizard, doesn't have anything really terrible to do with its time stops). Thats my point! Its not fixed! Its not balanced at all with regular D&D. I just explained exactly how time stop could be abused......scroll up a bit. As I said before those aren't the only broken parts. They all have broken abilities/sections to them.
Flamewarrior 10-10-07, 05:16 PM	IdleAltruism: it's not finished; that's true. But many, many parts of it are entirely usable now and exhibit better balance than core material itself.
Lady_Adelheid 10-10-07, 05:32 PM	Leo, first of all, they don't support infinite loops, and Frank's been caught criticising 3.5 many times exactly due to it not having closed any loop (and having opened some new ones, mainly through supernatural abilities gained via shapechange). Also, I'm pretty sure you can, with enough memory work, remember something popular that you consider of inferior quality than that of something less liked, unless you're of weak enough a personality that whatever pleases the crowds will please you. Also, who, except by Ed Stark, complained that druids weren't sexy enough? Finally, your claim of F&K material being directed to "the biggest powergamers" (which is patently false, since they can win D&D with pretty much any full spellcaster in official material) fails at the following pieces of hard evidence: fire mage (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=6&thread=137&postnum=18), and marshal (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=836&postnum=5); both were made by Frank Trollman for newbie players to actually have competitive/useful characters in the same environment that houses clerics, druids and wizards. Also, it's also possible to bring up the fact that the barbarian, knight and samurai players in Races of War (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9776630&postcount=4) have the same intent, and accomplish it admirably; to give you a very concrete example, while I like blade magic and consider it to be a fairly good way to make non-spellcasters matter, it actually is complex and possibly non-intuitive enough that I've seen numerous newbie and casual players having problems to deal with it in a consistent and effective manner. With the above-mentioned classes and Races of War feats, it's just a matter of picking the base class, choosing feats, and being ready to have useful characters all the way up to level 20. By the way, notice how those classes don't give much in the way of customization except for feat selection; so, the claim that they break the game more's false too, since they don't even have access to game-breaking options (except for magic items that anyone can use, and incidentally were the next problem to be addressed in The Book of Gears (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1035)). And, comparing a RoW barbarian/fighter/samurai to Pun-Pun's a claim that doesn't even merit rebuttal ... [back to lurking]
NeoFenrir 10-10-07, 05:49 PM	Well, wotc owns an uber rich company. K, last time I checked, doesn't. In the worst scenario wotc may have a big ego, but it stills prints good material, since people buy it. If D&D was so broken as people claim, then we wouldn't have all those people trying to "fix" it. You don't work to fix something you don't like and don't need. What? That's exactly what you do. If something doesn't work, you work at it until it does. Since so many people try to fix D&D it must not be broken? What kind of bass-ackwards logic is that? You complained about clerics and druids don't being sexy enough and they gave you natural spell and divine metamagic(natural spell wasn't in 3.0). You complained about vancian casters and they gave you psionics. You complained about regular melees and they gave you ToB. Druids still weren't sexy enough so they gave you planar sheperd. This is what is great about wotc. It knows how to please the majority audience. It gives you plenty of choices and you pick what you like and use it. Planar Shepard is one of the most broken classes ever printed. Seriously, one of the planes gives you uber-Time Stop, for hours per day, for everyone within 20 ft. of you. K's material, on the other hand, is directed towards the biggest powergamers of all. He fully suports infinite loops and actually makes the druid and cleric even more strong, so I really don't see how in heavens it is more balanced than regular wotc material. K doesn't care about the majority of the audience who is happy playing with fighters and rogues and rangers and barbarians and other so called "weak" classes. His class don't take any work to use effectively at all, just go out there and blast everything in your way with your uber powers whitout even needing to look for synergies. And this isn't really fun for most people(the reason nobody ever played pun-pun). Well, actually, according to what I've read, K's stuff is aimed at those who were tired of underperforming in their parties. He's tried to balance his stuff against what he has said is the only credible measuring stick: CR. I have some problems with this, mostly because the CR system is so non-standardized and wonky, but it's better than trying to make a class "as good as" another. Rogues, wizards, clerics, and druids are good pretty much right out of the box. Rogues won't match up to the spellcasters, of course, because they aren't spellcasters. Wizards have more bookkeeping than clerics or druids, but still. It takes very little work to make these classes good, ie. perform at a level comparable to their CR. This is how it should be. You shouldn't have to pull off some crazy barely-legal stuff in order to take on encounters of appropriate levels. And before you go on about how characters are supposed to lose solo matches against equal CR, that's BS. That would mean that if a character fought against an exact copy of himself, he would be guaranteed to lose, which is such a paradox I can't even say. By the rules, a character should go about 50-50 against a creature of the same CR. Obviously this won't always hold, as some monsters are rated differently from others (which brings us back to my problems with CR), but it's a good baseline, and its one which K tries to hold to. Also, the reason no one (intelligent) tried to play Pun-Pun is because Pun-Pun is a theoretical exercise, a showcase of how little thought Wizards sometimes puts into their material. It was never meant to be played, by anyone, ever.
IdleAltruism 10-10-07, 09:04 PM	IdleAltruism: it's not finished; that's true. But many, many parts of it are entirely usable now and exhibit better balance than core material itself. Thats great! To bad we aren't using those parts in this thread.....The work itself may be fantastic.....but the spheres aren't. As far as I can tell those are the only parts used in this class.
Flamewarrior 10-11-07, 06:16 PM	Thats great! To bad we aren't using those parts in this thread.....The work itself may be fantastic.....but the spheres aren't. As far as I can tell those are the only parts used in this class. I - sort of -agree; as I've said, I don't even contemplate the idea of running a sphere-based class without the upper-level SLA limit, and I believe I actually had listed which were the sphere abilities I had problems with, as well as Frank's rebuttals on some (see forcecage, in the quote I made above). I'll fish for them later.
Mijitdragun 01-21-08, 08:36 AM	Wow, I must be reading a different Warlock. The Warlock I read in Complete Arcane is very awesome and well done. Well, heres hping you fixed whatever Warlock this was.
Larz_Fang 01-22-08, 04:14 AM	Wait wait WAIT! HOLD ON A SECOND!!! What the HELL are you talking about?! Warlock? WEAK?! :evillaugh You've GOT to be kidding me... Tell me you are kidding! :headexplo The Warlock class is the most outright AWESOME arcane magic-user class ever published in 3.5, and you tell me it's WEAK?! Go jump off a bridge, man. Seriously. Not only with the right build could I stand up to the rest of magic-usin' nuke machines, but I also had the survivability that druids and such can't even HOPE to reach! And also one thing... I played an ORC warlock. Seriously. All you need is a DM who actually sees what's the deal and knows the game. As long as you know what you are doing and what character choices to make and use all the material you can get you're pretty much there. Also, the warlock is not only enjoyable to play but it's also the most feared base class in the game. I DMed a campaign with my warlock as the main villain and the players were pretty much forced to be careful most of the game time because they actually came to fear my villain. No, I ain't kidding. -Larz Fang, the supreme Dungeon Master of Danaroth.
BlaineTog 01-22-08, 10:47 AM	But the Complete Arcane Warlock is so much fun than even if he's underpowered you just don't care...
Firaeki 01-22-08, 10:56 AM	Wow, I must be reading a different Warlock. The Warlock I read in Complete Arcane is very awesome and well done. Well, heres hping you fixed whatever Warlock this was. I'm just going to quote you, since that's basically the exact same words that had come to mind when I saw this.
NoDot 01-22-08, 07:30 PM	((Attempting a Diplomacy check...)) Any class can be underpowered or overpowered, depending on what you compare it to. Compared to Batman Wizards (which is what the OP was doing), the Warlock from Complete Arcane is... well, calling it weak doesn't even begin to cover it. Let's just be grateful that it's better than the PHB Fighter!
JaronK 01-22-08, 07:41 PM	((Attempting a Diplomacy check...)) Any class can be underpowered or overpowered, depending on what you compare it to. Oh? Please demonstrate how the CW Samurai is overpowered. Compare it to anything (except NPC classes of course, though the Adept will win!). JaronK
NoDot 01-22-08, 07:56 PM	There are exceptions at the extremes of the spectrum.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-25-08, 01:20 AM	The fact of the matter is, if your class isn't as powerful as one of the big boys on the block, then it's worthless to have even been made.
Viktor_Von_Doom 01-25-08, 02:51 AM	Oh my god, this is the worst class I've seen on here. Not just for its mechanics but your reasons for it and your poor job at explaining any of the changes.
NoDot 01-25-08, 05:36 PM	Oh my god, this is the worst class I've seen on here. Not just for its mechanics but your reasons for it and your poor job at explaining any of the changes.Making statements without supporting evidence is sure to get you lots of support. :rolleyes:
sigma999 01-26-08, 05:29 PM	The fact of the matter is, if your class isn't as powerful as one of the big boys on the block, then it's worthless to have even been made. And if it is, and you post it here, get out the asbestos suit for a good ol' FlameWars!
Thane26425 01-26-08, 07:05 PM	What I did in my campaign and it is working so far was to level Warlock as it is, but apply the Dragonfire Adept's rate of gaining breath abilities to the eldritch blast modifers. The Warlock gains a few automatically, and if they want to be artillery, they can use their gained invocations to buy more. As for the evil nature of the warlock, The Complete Mage offers some alternatives to that, such as fey rather than demonic sources for the power. In my campaign, I included draconic heritage, like a variant Sorceror and scrapped the alignment issue. My player chose that option.
jeremytaylor7 01-26-08, 07:28 PM	the class has some serious flaw, and the idea tha tthe warlock needs to be "fixed" because it "sucks" is both foolish and rude. the warlock is fine. if you want to change it for some reason then go ahead, but trying to fix what isn't broken is hubris, pure and simple. I absolutely 100% agree with you. I just recently started playing a warlock in my campaign and I don't think I will ever go back to rogue or scout.
CrimsonDeath 01-26-08, 09:32 PM	What I did in my campaign and it is working so far was to level Warlock as it is, but apply the Dragonfire Adept's rate of gaining breath abilities to the eldritch blast modifers. The Warlock gains a few automatically, and if they want to be artillery, they can use their gained invocations to buy more. Did you also give the Dragonfire Adept the Warlock's Invocation progression?
Thane26425 01-26-08, 11:18 PM	Did you also give the Dragonfire Adept the Warlock's Invocation progression? I haven't had to worry about that since as yet there has been on interest in playing one. If there was, I probably would increase it. Then again, the Dragonfire Adept's selection is a bit different and not as broad as the Warlock's, so there isn't as much need for the expansion.
Grod_The_Giant 01-26-08, 11:42 PM	First, please post some of the stuff you reference. I really don't want to dig through dozens of searches to find this stuff. Second, I think a base class is required to go the full 20 levels. Finally, why on earth does he get a good reflex save?
Leress 01-27-08, 12:36 AM	First, please post some of the stuff you reference. I really don't want to dig through dozens of searches to find this stuff. Second, I think a base class is required to go the full 20 levels. Finally, why on earth does he get a good reflex save? Look... Tome of Necromancy http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=684 Tome of Fiends http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=688 Races of War http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=723 Dungeonomicon http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=698 This might help in getting an idea where it is coming from.
Subrosia 01-27-08, 01:35 AM	i have been a lurker on these boards for quite some time now, and have never seen someone who knew less about the meaning of PEACH. Yes i know you never summoned the sacred fruit of this board, but you asked for help and OPiNiONS about this horrible base class. You have proceeded to flame (almost) everyone who disagreed with an aspect of your class and simply trolled your own thread. 7 pages is way too much typing to have wasted on this class as it is. How can a class that gets 9th level spells at will, or 5/day as it was a suggested change, (but wasn't?) before the core classes that YOU call broken not broken itself? More damage reduction than a barbarian, the ONLY core class to get DMG Redux? Three CHOOSEABLE??? resistances, the outsider subtype and a BAB progressive magic unlimited nuke. Two good saves and a d6 hitdie. WTF isn't wrong with this class? Why did you even bring this over from the Frank and K board in the first place if you didn't want people's opinion?:confused: Just let this thread (and hopefully this class with along with it) die.
CrimsonDeath 01-27-08, 01:49 PM	I haven't had to worry about that since as yet there has been on interest in playing one. If there was, I probably would increase it. Then again, the Dragonfire Adept's selection is a bit different and not as broad as the Warlock's, so there isn't as much need for the expansion. You gave the Warlock Blast Shape/Essence Invocations for free, at the rate that the Dragonfire Adept gains breath effects. Those normally eat up the Warlock's list of known Invocations, if the player wants them. If you compare Dragonfire Adept invocations to the non-Essence, non-Shape Warlock Invocations in Complete Arcane, the Warlock only has six more options. Basically, my point is that the Dragonfire Adept's Breath Effect progression balances out his lower number of Invocations known. If you decide to give the CA Warlock some Essence/Shape Invocations for free, the Dragonfire Adept falls behind. (You also might consider letting them use some of the Warlock Invocations from Complete Mage.)
sigma999 01-27-08, 04:50 PM	Kresalak changed accounts and supposedly can't get back in, hence the lack of changes.
Thane26425 01-27-08, 08:23 PM	You gave the Warlock Blast Shape/Essence Invocations for free, at the rate that the Dragonfire Adept gains breath effects. Those normally eat up the Warlock's list of known Invocations, if the player wants them. If you compare Dragonfire Adept invocations to the non-Essence, non-Shape Warlock Invocations in Complete Arcane, the Warlock only has six more options. Basically, my point is that the Dragonfire Adept's Breath Effect progression balances out his lower number of Invocations known. If you decide to give the CA Warlock some Essence/Shape Invocations for free, the Dragonfire Adept falls behind. (You also might consider letting them use some of the Warlock Invocations from Complete Mage.) Good point. If it ever becomes an issue, then I I'll do something like that.
Kresalak 01-28-08, 05:49 PM	Kresalak changed accounts and supposedly can't get back in, hence the lack of changes. No, I just stopped caring. ALSO: Do I get Soul Link if I take levels in your Felguard class?
sigma999 01-28-08, 07:11 PM	No, I just stopped caring. Ah, pardon. I saw you use a different account when 'the change' happened with the login process. I think. Anyways, months later I still like this class, apart from its dependence on Spheres. Glad Surgo put it into the Tome collection.