A Rogue, But Not a Thief [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Rogue, But Not a Thief [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Callista
08-10-04, 10:15 PM I'm currently thinking about creating a 1st-level elf rogue. But the setting is kind of outdoorsy... so the classical "climb up the wall of the building and loot the house" rogue is just not going to fit in.

I've got some ideas myself (spy, scout, etc.); but I'd like more opinions: What can a rogue do, and not be a thief? (I don't want any evil-aligned options; that would just cause problems...)

What sort of skills would such a character have? Feats? Etc.?

Thanks in advance.
Luminous Crayon
08-10-04, 10:52 PM First of all, congratulations for thinking outside the box. You've taken your first step into a larger world.

There's lots of good news here. Rogues have a huge skillset, and there are plenty of non-thief areas you can concentrate on. Pick up a bow, and use your Hide, Move Silently, and Sneak Attack abilities to become an expert sniper. Load up on Bluff, Diplomacy, and other "people skills" if you think it'll be useful. Grab some ranks in Use Magic Device and a handful of wands, and you can be a backup healer and general artillery type (a cheap wand of acid splash lets you get all your sneak attack damage in with a ranged touch attack-- a talent that becomes really useful at high levels.)

Keep in mind that the Sleight of Hand skill, while commonly used to pick pockets, can be used for a lot of non-thieving applications as well. Hide a dagger in your possession, do a little "creative dealing" in a game of cards, and so on.
Mitchell
08-10-04, 11:22 PM No matter the setting, a rogue never has to be a "climb up the wall of the building and loot the house" type of character.

As mentioned, you have an expansive skill list at your disposal, so decide what you want. Diplomat? Can do. Scout? That's easy. Spy? No problem. Just figure out what you want to do , or what you see yourself as needing to do, and approach it from that angle. If you want to be a diplomat/con artist, then diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, and maybe sleight of hand and forgery are all good. If you want to be a scout or spy, then move silently, hide, gather information, and disable device are good.

The important thing to remember is that a class is primarily just a skill set. It's how you put the skill set together that will determine your job. Don't let others expectations change what you want to do. In an online game, there is an expectation that class "X" will do job "Y" because that's what they are "supposed to do". In a real live face-to-face game of DnD, the DM is supposed to make the game around the players. It gives you alot more flexibility in building your character, and if you decide that your rogue can't pick locks or pockets, then the party will work around it, and the DM should plan around it.

It's all about fun.
JohnSnow
08-11-04, 12:00 AM Depends largely on the setting you're dealing with, from my perspective. I'm going to make a few assumptions based on things you've said.

Since your character is an elf, I'm assuming it's at least a standard D&D setting, magic-wise. Since you said the setting is outdoorsy, that also implies to me that it's not a late-period renaissance setting. So, the default is the assumption of a standard, approximately 14th-century-technology-level, D&D setting.

That said, the rogue class lends itself to:

Scouts
Minstrels (non-magical ones)
Spies
Pirates
Treasure Hunters
Swashbucklers

Elves tend to have long memories. Say, an elven archaeologist. Focusing on tumble and bluff makes for a classic swashbuckling elven rogue. Bear in mind that an elf can have martial weapon proficiencies in longsword and longbow in addition to all the rogue proficiencies. That's a character with quite an impressive set of weapons to use. Of course, there's always the Elven Thinblade, a finessable d8 weapon (with a threat range of 18-20).

Alternatively, an Elven rogue might make a very impressive archer...with the right feats.
DM Zoc
08-11-04, 12:12 AM There is a wilderness-based rogue in Unearthed Arcana. It exchanges some of the rogue abilities for ranger abilities.
RogerWilco
08-11-04, 12:34 PM I've build and played a halfling rogue Poacher in second edition (A kit I made myself, mainly a roguish Scout) Maybe gives you some ideas.

home.hccnet.nl/g.a.renting/aser.html
bleek
08-11-04, 01:13 PM Elf + Rogue = Smile

This is my trademark character. I don't like to plat thieves much, it oftend ends up derailing the campaign when you're arrested.

Instead, I work towards building a "secret agent" character. This is fun,a s it lets your character build up his physical skills (in case he gets caught), his knowledge, and his charisma abilities (so he DOESN'T get caught).

There is one PrC that seems cool for this type of character, Spymaster in Song & Silence. The downside is that it doesn't seem to be an action-oriented class.

If you're in a more wild area, the scout seems more appropriate. Perhaps your character could even act as a liason between a merchants guild and mercenaries, or any toher combination of groups.

Now, just make him a smart-ass with daggers secretly hidden all over him, and quick draw, and you'll be set.
Salla
08-11-04, 01:57 PM Finally, someone else who realizes that rogues aren't always thieves. :)

You could just call yourself a warrior or skirmisher, perhaps, if you're going stealth-heavy without using the typical 'thief skills' like Open Lock. If you're willing to Multi-Class, a Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Ranger would be an excellent scout/ambush master.
Tony Vargas
08-11-04, 02:49 PM There's a reason they changed the name of the class from 'thief' to 'rogue.' Rogues aren't thieves at all - they're oportunists. Theft is one of many things rogues /could/ be into, but thier skills lend themselves to a great many other things, as well.

A rogue could easily be a scout, for instance - like the ranger, he has all the stealth and alertness skills needed for that role. In addition, he has trapfinding, which can be just as helpful in the wilderness as in a dungeon. The lack of survival skill is a potential problem, but you can always cross-class it. As an elf, if you wanted to be a ranger-rogue (really, the ideal wilderness scout), you'd have to advance evenly, even though Rogue1/RangerX or Ranger1-3/RogueX might be more attractive due to high-level class abilities.

A Rogue could even legitimately consider himself a 'warrior' (really, a 2nd level rogue is easily a tough as a 1st level NPC-warrior), just a cunning one.

You could also be an 'archer.' Your high DEX would make up for relative lack of BAB of the rogue, and Sneak Attack does a splendid job of modeling deadly accuracy.
Frostbite_Ravenheart
08-11-04, 02:54 PM *In the name of Yondalla, the other halfling gods, and most of all the halfling god of thieves*

God I hope this doesn't start a wave of anti-thief-rogues anywhere. My Character would have a field day since no one would ever mind putting up anti-rogue traps and detections :D.

Anyways you really need to get your character concept down. Depending on that you might either want to start planning to be a:

Pure non-thief rogue
Rogue/ranger mix
or prehaps even a ranger is more suited to what you want.

Now if you interested in the sneak attack why dont you try a new, to these boards at least, concept: The Elven Bandit.

A bandit isn't a Thief persay although he does steal. However you can make some sort of crazy "Elven Avenger Bandit" or "Stay out of my woods" Bandit.

Bandits dont *have* to be rangers beacuse they dont *have* to specialize in woodland skills. A bandit *has* to be able to be sneaky and *has* to beable to kill with only a few strikes.

I would love to see more Bandits in this world.

Long Live the Art of Halfling Thiefer!
-Frosty

EDIT: Sorry Tony. My post is kinda like yours. You must have posted only a few seconds before I did :(. I'll keep this up tho there are few different points.
JohnSnow
08-11-04, 03:09 PM Three things:

First, the Wilderness Rogue from Unearthed Arcana gains Survival as a class skill. Solving that little problem.

Second, Sneak Attack only works out to 30', making it somewhat difficult to strike lethally with a bow.

Third, and finally, IIRC, Wood Elves have Ranger as their favored class, eliminating the "uneven multiclassing problem" IF the character were a Wood Elf (rather than a High Elf).

My two coppers.
Koga:The ninja trick
08-11-04, 03:42 PM Ever considerd a spy? Dr@gon did an entire issue about them a while back. That was cool..
nemafakei
08-11-04, 05:12 PM There's also the martial aspect - the 'dirty fighter', specialising on bluff checks to get feint attacks, trip atttacks, tumble checks to get sneak attacks, and so on. Although less interesting roleplaying-wise, enough skill-points should be left over for hobbies.

A particular example of the rogue's 'hobbies' include the penchant for magical, rare or interesting items. The high number of skill points of the rogue (though less in terms of the character as a whole than the bard) lends itself to taking ranks in Knowledge, Use Magical Device, Appraise, perhaps some craft skills for the synergies (or for creating replicas to switch)...
edialgo
08-12-04, 02:51 AM If the campaign will be as outdorsy as i think maybe you should consider doing a rogue/ ranger. in my opinion that would make and incredible woodsman scout.

Edialgo:mage:
ArnimThayer
08-12-04, 07:22 AM As already stated above, Unearthed Arcana has options for a Wilderness Rogue. And multi-classing with Ranger is also a nice idea. If you like the flavor of a spy type character, try looking for an old copy of Dragon Annual #5. It contains a PRC called a Herald, which is essentially a James Bond/Her Majesty's Secret Service type PRC, complete with spells. If your are looking for a PRC to build into for a wilderness campaign, Silver Marches has a Wilderness Scout PRC, with a camoflague ability. Look into it and see what you think. :D
Callista
08-12-04, 11:16 AM Wow... you people have given me quite a lot to think about.

I had already decided on Wood Elf; that was one of the choices I was given based on the scenario.

I'm thinking to go with a combination of saboteur and sniper... someone who can sneak in and mess up the enemy's supplies/weaponry/whatever, or take out key people with a well-placed arrow.

Of course, at level 1, it won't be very flashy... but I guess these things build up as the character develops.

I'm going to concentrate on stealth skills, and maybe spy-ish stuff like Disguise, Bluff, Sense motive... Maybe learning to build traps (but not necessarily specializing on disarming them) would be useful... and of course I'll work on archery. I've already got a 16 to place in Dexterity, 18 with the elf's racial modifier. So that sort of thing should work out fine.

Multiclassing with Ranger sounds very cool... I'm quite likely to do that, actually. Am I right in starting out as a rogue?

I quite welcome further suggestions, if you have them... my characters--and, unfortunately, campaings I'm in--die often; so I am always having to think of new ideas!
Nethicus
08-12-04, 11:31 AM I had a LG rogue class that I was playing until the DMs dice caught on fire and he hit my 5 out of 6 times with battleaxes and he met his demise.

But the idea was a lot of fun. He was an investigator. He used his skills to gather information, sense motives, search, spot, open locks, disarm traps, intimidate, bluff & diplomacy. Obviously he didn't need or want to break in and steal from people. He was going to use magic to ferret out clues. It was fun being a rogue with a +2 in hide.

Think Det. Green from "Law & Order", except as a French guy.

He had just taken a level in cleric to be a 2/1 Rog/Clr

Feats: Skill focus (Sense Motive), Alertness, Investigator

He was going to get a few levels in Diviner, too. But he was struck down before I could truly play the class out.

Just something different to do with a rogue.
Sensei Gith
08-12-04, 12:34 PM Here's an all-core (except for the Wood Elf) build for you:

Rogue1/Ranger2/Rogue15/Fighter2

You get four iterative attacks, three combat bonus feats, Track, favored enemy, and wild empathy, +8d6 sneak attack, and three rogue special abilities.

Get Improved TWF and Quick Draw and fight with dual throwing axes. Max out your stealth, perception, and wilderness-related skills like survival and climb.

You are now the ultimate sneak-attacking scout. With up to seven thrown handaxes per round for a potential of 8d6 sneak attack on each one, you are made for sneaky ambushes. You're just as much of a ranger as a rogue flavor-wise, but you make full use of your sneak attack and skill points.

Just an idea, but not a bad one if you ask me (although I'd admit to bias).
Sisyfos
08-12-04, 12:58 PM Yekoj discusses in his Rogue's handbook the different roles of rogues and how to be good at them. Link is in my signature: HB_Rogues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 08-10-04, 10:15 PM	I'm currently thinking about creating a 1st-level elf rogue. But the setting is kind of outdoorsy... so the classical "climb up the wall of the building and loot the house" rogue is just not going to fit in. I've got some ideas myself (spy, scout, etc.); but I'd like more opinions: What can a rogue do, and not be a thief? (I don't want any evil-aligned options; that would just cause problems...) What sort of skills would such a character have? Feats? Etc.? Thanks in advance.
Luminous Crayon 08-10-04, 10:52 PM	First of all, congratulations for thinking outside the box. You've taken your first step into a larger world. There's lots of good news here. Rogues have a huge skillset, and there are plenty of non-thief areas you can concentrate on. Pick up a bow, and use your Hide, Move Silently, and Sneak Attack abilities to become an expert sniper. Load up on Bluff, Diplomacy, and other "people skills" if you think it'll be useful. Grab some ranks in Use Magic Device and a handful of wands, and you can be a backup healer and general artillery type (a cheap wand of acid splash lets you get all your sneak attack damage in with a ranged touch attack-- a talent that becomes really useful at high levels.) Keep in mind that the Sleight of Hand skill, while commonly used to pick pockets, can be used for a lot of non-thieving applications as well. Hide a dagger in your possession, do a little "creative dealing" in a game of cards, and so on.
Mitchell 08-10-04, 11:22 PM	No matter the setting, a rogue never has to be a "climb up the wall of the building and loot the house" type of character. As mentioned, you have an expansive skill list at your disposal, so decide what you want. Diplomat? Can do. Scout? That's easy. Spy? No problem. Just figure out what you want to do , or what you see yourself as needing to do, and approach it from that angle. If you want to be a diplomat/con artist, then diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, and maybe sleight of hand and forgery are all good. If you want to be a scout or spy, then move silently, hide, gather information, and disable device are good. The important thing to remember is that a class is primarily just a skill set. It's how you put the skill set together that will determine your job. Don't let others expectations change what you want to do. In an online game, there is an expectation that class "X" will do job "Y" because that's what they are "supposed to do". In a real live face-to-face game of DnD, the DM is supposed to make the game around the players. It gives you alot more flexibility in building your character, and if you decide that your rogue can't pick locks or pockets, then the party will work around it, and the DM should plan around it. It's all about fun.
JohnSnow 08-11-04, 12:00 AM	Depends largely on the setting you're dealing with, from my perspective. I'm going to make a few assumptions based on things you've said. Since your character is an elf, I'm assuming it's at least a standard D&D setting, magic-wise. Since you said the setting is outdoorsy, that also implies to me that it's not a late-period renaissance setting. So, the default is the assumption of a standard, approximately 14th-century-technology-level, D&D setting. That said, the rogue class lends itself to: Scouts Minstrels (non-magical ones) Spies Pirates Treasure Hunters Swashbucklers Elves tend to have long memories. Say, an elven archaeologist. Focusing on tumble and bluff makes for a classic swashbuckling elven rogue. Bear in mind that an elf can have martial weapon proficiencies in longsword and longbow in addition to all the rogue proficiencies. That's a character with quite an impressive set of weapons to use. Of course, there's always the Elven Thinblade, a finessable d8 weapon (with a threat range of 18-20). Alternatively, an Elven rogue might make a very impressive archer...with the right feats.
DM Zoc 08-11-04, 12:12 AM	There is a wilderness-based rogue in Unearthed Arcana. It exchanges some of the rogue abilities for ranger abilities.
RogerWilco 08-11-04, 12:34 PM	I've build and played a halfling rogue Poacher in second edition (A kit I made myself, mainly a roguish Scout) Maybe gives you some ideas. home.hccnet.nl/g.a.renting/aser.html
bleek 08-11-04, 01:13 PM	Elf + Rogue = Smile This is my trademark character. I don't like to plat thieves much, it oftend ends up derailing the campaign when you're arrested. Instead, I work towards building a "secret agent" character. This is fun,a s it lets your character build up his physical skills (in case he gets caught), his knowledge, and his charisma abilities (so he DOESN'T get caught). There is one PrC that seems cool for this type of character, Spymaster in Song & Silence. The downside is that it doesn't seem to be an action-oriented class. If you're in a more wild area, the scout seems more appropriate. Perhaps your character could even act as a liason between a merchants guild and mercenaries, or any toher combination of groups. Now, just make him a smart-ass with daggers secretly hidden all over him, and quick draw, and you'll be set.
Salla 08-11-04, 01:57 PM	Finally, someone else who realizes that rogues aren't always thieves. :) You could just call yourself a warrior or skirmisher, perhaps, if you're going stealth-heavy without using the typical 'thief skills' like Open Lock. If you're willing to Multi-Class, a Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Ranger would be an excellent scout/ambush master.
Tony Vargas 08-11-04, 02:49 PM	There's a reason they changed the name of the class from 'thief' to 'rogue.' Rogues aren't thieves at all - they're oportunists. Theft is one of many things rogues /could/ be into, but thier skills lend themselves to a great many other things, as well. A rogue could easily be a scout, for instance - like the ranger, he has all the stealth and alertness skills needed for that role. In addition, he has trapfinding, which can be just as helpful in the wilderness as in a dungeon. The lack of survival skill is a potential problem, but you can always cross-class it. As an elf, if you wanted to be a ranger-rogue (really, the ideal wilderness scout), you'd have to advance evenly, even though Rogue1/RangerX or Ranger1-3/RogueX might be more attractive due to high-level class abilities. A Rogue could even legitimately consider himself a 'warrior' (really, a 2nd level rogue is easily a tough as a 1st level NPC-warrior), just a cunning one. You could also be an 'archer.' Your high DEX would make up for relative lack of BAB of the rogue, and Sneak Attack does a splendid job of modeling deadly accuracy.
Frostbite_Ravenheart 08-11-04, 02:54 PM	In the name of Yondalla, the other halfling gods, and most of all the halfling god of thieves God I hope this doesn't start a wave of anti-thief-rogues anywhere. My Character would have a field day since no one would ever mind putting up anti-rogue traps and detections :D. Anyways you really need to get your character concept down. Depending on that you might either want to start planning to be a: Pure non-thief rogue Rogue/ranger mix or prehaps even a ranger is more suited to what you want. Now if you interested in the sneak attack why dont you try a new, to these boards at least, concept: The Elven Bandit. A bandit isn't a Thief persay although he does steal. However you can make some sort of crazy "Elven Avenger Bandit" or "Stay out of my woods" Bandit. Bandits dont have to be rangers beacuse they dont have to specialize in woodland skills. A bandit has to be able to be sneaky and has to beable to kill with only a few strikes. I would love to see more Bandits in this world. Long Live the Art of Halfling Thiefer! -Frosty EDIT: Sorry Tony. My post is kinda like yours. You must have posted only a few seconds before I did :(. I'll keep this up tho there are few different points.
JohnSnow 08-11-04, 03:09 PM	Three things: First, the Wilderness Rogue from Unearthed Arcana gains Survival as a class skill. Solving that little problem. Second, Sneak Attack only works out to 30', making it somewhat difficult to strike lethally with a bow. Third, and finally, IIRC, Wood Elves have Ranger as their favored class, eliminating the "uneven multiclassing problem" IF the character were a Wood Elf (rather than a High Elf). My two coppers.
Koga:The ninja trick 08-11-04, 03:42 PM	Ever considerd a spy? Dr@gon did an entire issue about them a while back. That was cool..
nemafakei 08-11-04, 05:12 PM	There's also the martial aspect - the 'dirty fighter', specialising on bluff checks to get feint attacks, trip atttacks, tumble checks to get sneak attacks, and so on. Although less interesting roleplaying-wise, enough skill-points should be left over for hobbies. A particular example of the rogue's 'hobbies' include the penchant for magical, rare or interesting items. The high number of skill points of the rogue (though less in terms of the character as a whole than the bard) lends itself to taking ranks in Knowledge, Use Magical Device, Appraise, perhaps some craft skills for the synergies (or for creating replicas to switch)...
edialgo 08-12-04, 02:51 AM	If the campaign will be as outdorsy as i think maybe you should consider doing a rogue/ ranger. in my opinion that would make and incredible woodsman scout. Edialgo:mage:
ArnimThayer 08-12-04, 07:22 AM	As already stated above, Unearthed Arcana has options for a Wilderness Rogue. And multi-classing with Ranger is also a nice idea. If you like the flavor of a spy type character, try looking for an old copy of Dragon Annual #5. It contains a PRC called a Herald, which is essentially a James Bond/Her Majesty's Secret Service type PRC, complete with spells. If your are looking for a PRC to build into for a wilderness campaign, Silver Marches has a Wilderness Scout PRC, with a camoflague ability. Look into it and see what you think. :D
Callista 08-12-04, 11:16 AM	Wow... you people have given me quite a lot to think about. I had already decided on Wood Elf; that was one of the choices I was given based on the scenario. I'm thinking to go with a combination of saboteur and sniper... someone who can sneak in and mess up the enemy's supplies/weaponry/whatever, or take out key people with a well-placed arrow. Of course, at level 1, it won't be very flashy... but I guess these things build up as the character develops. I'm going to concentrate on stealth skills, and maybe spy-ish stuff like Disguise, Bluff, Sense motive... Maybe learning to build traps (but not necessarily specializing on disarming them) would be useful... and of course I'll work on archery. I've already got a 16 to place in Dexterity, 18 with the elf's racial modifier. So that sort of thing should work out fine. Multiclassing with Ranger sounds very cool... I'm quite likely to do that, actually. Am I right in starting out as a rogue? I quite welcome further suggestions, if you have them... my characters--and, unfortunately, campaings I'm in--die often; so I am always having to think of new ideas!
Nethicus 08-12-04, 11:31 AM	I had a LG rogue class that I was playing until the DMs dice caught on fire and he hit my 5 out of 6 times with battleaxes and he met his demise. But the idea was a lot of fun. He was an investigator. He used his skills to gather information, sense motives, search, spot, open locks, disarm traps, intimidate, bluff & diplomacy. Obviously he didn't need or want to break in and steal from people. He was going to use magic to ferret out clues. It was fun being a rogue with a +2 in hide. Think Det. Green from "Law & Order", except as a French guy. He had just taken a level in cleric to be a 2/1 Rog/Clr Feats: Skill focus (Sense Motive), Alertness, Investigator He was going to get a few levels in Diviner, too. But he was struck down before I could truly play the class out. Just something different to do with a rogue.
Sensei Gith 08-12-04, 12:34 PM	Here's an all-core (except for the Wood Elf) build for you: Rogue1/Ranger2/Rogue15/Fighter2 You get four iterative attacks, three combat bonus feats, Track, favored enemy, and wild empathy, +8d6 sneak attack, and three rogue special abilities. Get Improved TWF and Quick Draw and fight with dual throwing axes. Max out your stealth, perception, and wilderness-related skills like survival and climb. You are now the ultimate sneak-attacking scout. With up to seven thrown handaxes per round for a potential of 8d6 sneak attack on each one, you are made for sneaky ambushes. You're just as much of a ranger as a rogue flavor-wise, but you make full use of your sneak attack and skill points. Just an idea, but not a bad one if you ask me (although I'd admit to bias).
Sisyfos 08-12-04, 12:58 PM	Yekoj discusses in his Rogue's handbook the different roles of rogues and how to be good at them. Link is in my signature: HB_Rogues.