Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caiden 12-22-04, 10:22 PM	I am here today because i need to call forth all the help of the other rogue/thiefs like my self. i need to know any pointers or fun things to do in battle that a rogue can do that i haven't thought of yet. if anyone can help me please contact me soon because my DM is really on my case and says im not being "Rogue'y" enough, yet he wont elaberate. :confused:
CzarGarrett 12-22-04, 10:44 PM	Well, most rogues are scouting types with secondary melee capabilities. Meaning the rogue sneaks around, checks things out, and then sneak attacks and snipes at enemies while the party tanks take them on. Also, trickery comes into play. A rogue who can distract enemies so other characters can get by places is great.
Darion Fenix 12-22-04, 11:37 PM	Not everyone can play a rogue or bard. While a good fighter simply bashes things and a good wizard has to make a show of being studious (of course that's not the extent of a fighter or wizard character!), that is simply to say that to be "fighter-y" one just has to fight. While you might think being "rogue-y" just requires you to use your sneak attack and find a few traps, that's not the case. Rogues should be Roguish. I tend to think of rogues as one of two types, Dark and Light. That's no reference to their alignment, of course. Dark Rogues tend to be quiet, sullen, cold and infinitely serious about their line of work. If you're playing a dark rogue speak only when spoken too and usually not even then. Avoid being seen at every chance you get, even by your own party, it's none of their bloody business after all. Ask the DM if you can go do a little cat burgling while the rest of the party is sleeping at the inn. Light Rogues are polite and friendly and most definitely glib. A high Charisma is a must for these characters because they're the ones who try to bluff their way past a dozen orc guards or convince the night watch that they're the "rampart inspector that the Baron hired" and then insist that he'll be very angry if they wake him to confirm this. Now for some assorted combat tips. First, if you're in straight melee you have failed in one way or another. Either you've loused up your hide or move silently check and have been spotted, or you are in the wrong place when the rest of your party is fighting. Try ducking out of sight before combat or immediately as it starts. Even if it takes you 2 or 3 rounds to get to an appropriate hiding place, it's probably a good idea. If you can use your ranged sneak attacks from this location, great, if you can't, at least you don't have to worry about getting a battleaxe to the face. Once the tide of battle has turned in your party's favor you can close in and make your melee sneak attacks. Never fight fair. Ask the DM for any sort of environmental features to use to your advantage. Ropes supporting heavy objects, statues to be pushed over, rugs to be pulled out from under people and sand to throw in their faces. Use caltrops or bags of marbles to slow enemies down. Use broken glass spread on the floor so you can hear when someone is sneaking up on your location. Use trip wires; especially effective on mounted opponents. Take your time. Don't enter a room, let whoever's in the room come out. If you have to stake out a location for 8 hours, that's fine. You're a rogue! You have the capacity to sit still and stay alert all night long. Fighters don't, they get fidgety and anxious. Now some RPing suggestions. Be overt OR covert about your abilities. Either make sure everyone knows you can vanish in to shadows and debilitate an opponent with one well placed attack. Or make sure no one knows how good you are, or can even guess your class. Ask the DM to add a Gambling skill. I've never played a rogue who wasn't good with cards. Carry a sap or blackjack with you. Dead opponents are just dead but unconscious opponents can be bargaining chips. Now a word to DMs...let the rogues be rogues! We can't fight or cast spells so if we want to rob a mansion or pick some pockets, let us. Not every shop has magic traps, so don't put one there just so we won't "gain wealth inappropriate to our level". Of course, don't worry about punishing a rogue for being too brash and doing something inappropriate for their abilities. Considering lowering the DC for picking pockets or at least giving several circumstance modifiers to the Rogue where appropriate. Pick pockets are generally regarded as low level thieves anyway so low level thieves should be able to pick pockets without a 25% chance of being caught. That's all I've got for now but Rogues are my favorite class and I'll probably be back with more. Hope this helped!
ShneekeyTheLost 12-23-04, 01:14 AM	Allow me to put in my own two cents, if I may. Rogues can sometimes be the most powerful class in the game if you know what you are supposed to do and what you are not supposed to do. Evasion plus high reflex saves means you are the bane of any typical 'blaster caster' as nearly all the evoc damage spells are reflex save for half (and because of evasion, you take no damage). Dex bonus to AC is included against ranged touch attacks (like rays) so you're usually okay there (unless they use the infamous True Strike/Ray combo). Beware of the will save stuff like Hold Person, Otto's Irresitable Dance, and Tasha's Hiedious Laughter. You seriously do not want to get the negative attention of the melee type critters though, your high dex won't ofset your paper-thin armor enough to want to have a serious chance at getting hit. Always remember: Tumble past an opponent to get into flanking position, a successfull tumble check negates their attack of opportunity. Hide is your friend. They can't hit what they can't see. You have a good shot at avoiding most Area of Effect spells (like fireball, lighting bolt, cone of cold, all of which are reflex save for half, or in your case, reflex save for nada) so you don't have to worry as much about them. Remember that if you are hidden, you pretty much get your sneak attack dice because they don't know you are there. You are your parties defense against traps. Make sure to keep Search and Disable Device up there. Hitting often is more important than hitting hard. You should at least attempt to move into position to use your sneak attack dice as often as possible. While there, you need to hit as many times as possible. Even throwing daggers (at a mere d4 or d3 for small races) will enable enormous damage with sneak attack dice added. If you get feats like rapid shot (which works well for both throwing daggers or a shortbow) It is yet another shot you get with your sneak attack when you can get a full attack from sneak attack position. Remember your limitations. Know which creatures are immune to sneak attack (oozes, elementals, undead, and the like). STAY AWAY from these sorts of creatures. You do not want to get close enough for them to hit you, and you aren't going to be doing enough damage to them to matter. Now is the time to play with your toys... which reminds me Rogues and their toys. With Use Magic Device, you are perhaps the most useful arcane and divine 'caster' in the group. Stock up on useful lower end scrolls and wands of both realms. Cure type wands can make you an effective backup healer. True Strike is fun, so is spider climb, mage armor, shield, displacement, haste and detect magic. Some toys to consider are those that are effective against creatures that are immune to sneak attacks. Elemental type spells (lightning bolt, fireball, cone of cold, sound burst, Melf's Acid Arrows are just a few) tend to work very effectivly against such creatures if you can match element type to their weakness. Never forget that cure spells can be used to harm undead. Other handy scrolls and wands would be Hold Person, Dispel Magic, Identify, Feather Fall, Shield of Faith, the various stat enhancing spells, and invisibility. Other useful tricks to have up your sleeves are Tanglebags, Thunderstones, caltrops, marbles, and smoke sticks to make a getaway. Just make sure the party covers the cost on some of this stuff, you can turn the tide in battle with your toys, make sure they know how expensive it is to do that. Suggested Feats: Quick Draw. Most espically if you use toys often, being able to switch out weapons quickly can mean the difference between success and defeat. Dodge. More AC is always handy. Mobility. When getting into 'rogue wars', this can be handy. Also nice for when that tumble check fails and you wind up on the wrong side of an attack of opportunity. Point Blank Shot. Your 30' sneak attack range should be used to it's utmost. Extra to hit and damage in this range is always fun. Rapid Shot. As I mentioned before, hitting often is better than hitting hard. If you are going to be a ranged specialist, this is going to want to be in your repitoire. Shot on the Run. Lots of prerequsites, however very handy for the 'stick and move' fighting style of the rogue. You're going to want to pick up the dodge series anyways. Blind Fighting. You, perhaps more than anyone else in the group, might come into a situation where you need to hit an invisible enemy or to hit an enemy in the dark. However, it is a very specialized feat. It's up to you to decide if it's worth one of your precious feats to get a chance at re-roling that 50% miss chance. Improved Initiative. If you get the drop on your opponents, you sneak attack. Improved Feint. Successfull feint means he's denied dex bonus. Time to break out your sneak attack dice. Weapon Finesse. If you absolutely have to melee, make sure you are going to hit. Odds are your dex is better than your str and you're using a light weapon or a rapier anyways. Feats to avoid: Any of the +2 to X and Y skill feats. You already get the most skill points in the game, don't blow a rare feat on four skill points. Power Attack line. More attacks is better than more damage. Your sneak attacks more than make up for the damage this stuff does. Cleave. If you are in melee range of more than one creature, you've already screwed up somewhere. Get out of there using tumble. Armor/shield proficiency. Dex check penilties make heavy armor and shields nearly worthless to you. Always remember Shneekey's four Rogue's Rules of Combat. 1) If they are dumb enough to turn their backs, be smart enough to hit them in it 2) Cheezy is not an insult, it is a job description 3) If you're alive and they're dead, it worked 4) If the DM starts cursing your name, you did something right.
Thanatos02 12-23-04, 01:43 AM	There are some things you can't sneak attack - don't engage these things in the normal way. You can't smash these things very well, so either avoid them and rely on your party, or utilize the environment and special items. Most mundane objects are pretty weak, but correct application may be useful in some instances. Holy Water, Alchemist's Fire, and gunpowder bombs all have their applications. The UMD skills allows your rogue to do things he couldn't normally do - make sure you have some magic items to cover your weak spots, or allow quick transport out of a bad mess. Alchemical items, or other mundane equipment can be your friend - I recommend the Arms and Equipment manual to get a list of useful, if not very powerful, gadgets. Correct selection of gear makes or breaks your adventure.
Darion Fenix 12-23-04, 02:45 AM	That's right, there's some useful gear that a Rogue shouldn't leave home without. Silent Shoes - 10 gp, +1 Move Silently bonus. They've got padding on the soles to absorb sound. Collapsible Grappling Hook - 3 gp. Same as normal but it folds neatly! Finger Blades - 20 gp +1 Pick Pocket checks. A ring attached to a razor used to cut purse strings; ineffective in combat. Blade Boot - 15 gp. A spring loaded knife in the sole of your boot, 1d4 damage. Mithral Chain Shirt - 1100 gp, better than any medium armor made out of mithral for a rogue. It's cheaper and it has a -0 penalty to your dexterity checks. Try to get a double sided, reversible jacket and make sure to carry around a quick disguise in your pocket (a wig and cap ought to be enough to slip in to a crowd). See if you DM will let you sew a chain shirt in to the lining of a long canvas coat. No game bonuses per say, but it will make you inconspicuous compared to your comrades dressed in full plate. "Excuse me, did you see man wearing a glistening mithral chain shirt go past here?" "Sure did!" OR "Excuse me, did you see a um...man in a brown coat?" "..." Consider multiclassing as a sorcerer. Spells like Sleep and Feather Fall will come in handy in your line of work, and Mage Hand is a great way to get out of prison. Your Rogue should have a high Charisma anyway since he ought to be the one bluffing and negotiating for the party most of the time.
Razoreface 12-23-04, 03:10 AM	if anyone can help me please contact me soon because my DM is really on my case and says im not being "Rogue'y" enough, yet he wont elaberate. :confused: Stop trying to fit your character into someone's idea of the class. It's your character. Your character doesn't have to fit any of the cute pictures, or what someone else's idea of what that class is supposed to look and act like. Try making a Rogue with great strength, good con, average dexterity, absolutely crap charisma, and spend a feat on heavier armor, then go beat the crap out of things, and take their stuff. That's very roguish if it's your rogue.
ShneekeyTheLost 12-23-04, 03:44 AM	That's right, there's some useful gear that a Rogue shouldn't leave home without. Silent Shoes - 10 gp, +1 Move Silently bonus. They've got padding on the soles to absorb sound. Nice stuff for the beginning rogue. Upgrade to Boots of Elvinkind or slippers of spider climbing when you get the chance. Collapsible Grappling Hook - 3 gp. Same as normal but it folds neatly! Very handy, although most rogues pick up either a bag of holding or a Heward's Handy Haversack to store their stuff in. Good for the low level rogue though. Finger Blades - 20 gp +1 Pick Pocket checks. A ring attached to a razor used to cut purse strings; ineffective in combat. Not so sure this is very handy, I suppose if you are a pick pocket it's okay, I guess. Blade Boot - 15 gp. A spring loaded knife in the sole of your boot, 1d4 damage. I perfer concealed wrist sheaths used in conjunction with quick draw and flick of the wrist feats. Mithral Chain Shirt - 1100 gp, better than any medium armor made out of mithral for a rogue. It's cheaper and it has a -0 penalty to your dexterity checks. I strongly agree. This is going to be your best base armor available. Remember, you can get the mithral chain shirt, then have it enchanted later. All armor made of special materials are automatically considered Mastercrafted. Some ideas for armor enchantments include Silent Moves (doesn't stack with boots of elvinkind), Shadow, Glamered, Slick, and Ghost Touch (non-corp undead are your particular bane). Don't neglect the enchantment bonus of the armor itself. Try to get a double sided, reversible jacket and make sure to carry around a quick disguise in your pocket (a wig and cap ought to be enough to slip in to a crowd). See if you DM will let you sew a chain shirt in to the lining of a long canvas coat. No game bonuses per say, but it will make you inconspicuous compared to your comrades dressed in full plate. "Excuse me, did you see man wearing a glistening mithral chain shirt go past here?" "Sure did!" OR "Excuse me, did you see a um...man in a brown coat?" "..." Very useful tips for using the disguise skill. Glamoired armor looks like regular clothing. A high priced alternative to sewing it into a coat. Also, for those not skilled in tailoring, you can usually throw a tabbard and coat over a chain shirt to cover it up nicely. Consider multiclassing as a sorcerer. Spells like Sleep and Feather Fall will come in handy in your line of work, and Mage Hand is a great way to get out of prison. Your Rogue should have a high Charisma anyway since he ought to be the one bluffing and negotiating for the party most of the time. True, however you can get the same benifit out of toys using the skill Use Magic Device. I would suggest going sorcerer only if you intend on going to Arcane Trickster. Or if you just like doing that much magic. Sleep, however, is actually not as useful as you might think. A good rogue can sneak past guards, you don't need to sleep them. Rather than sleep, look at true strike or spider climb.
Darion Fenix 12-23-04, 03:55 AM	Try making a Rogue with great strength, good con, average dexterity, absolutely crap charisma, and spend a feat on heavier armor, then go beat the crap out of things, and take their stuff. That's very roguish if it's your rogue. Actually that's just a fighter with a bad attitude. While you should definitely play a character the way you want to without regards to "uber build" concepts, being a useful, contributing member of the party is also important. While there's no rule that says you can't make a wizard with Improved Unarmed Combat who drops his spell book and run headfirst in to melee...you're still going to get killed and you should have played a monk. One of my favorite characters was a noble cavalier who wore a breastplate, used a bastard sword and heavy steel shield and lead troops in to battle. He was a level 1 Fighter / 5 Rogue with 14 Dex 16 Str and 16 Cha. He was more of a dirty melee combatant and negotiator than a trap finder and scout ^_^
Darion Fenix 12-23-04, 04:21 AM	Thanks for the comments, ShneekeyTheLost. Taking a few levels of sorcerer might not be for everyone, but at low levels when magic items aren't readily available, a few handy spells turn in to life savers. If you're a level 3 Rogue and need to make a quick getaway out the window of a 40' tall tower, Feather Fall! Prestidigitation makes a great distraction. Mage Hand is your get out of jail free card as it allows you to slip the keys off the hook across the hall and move them in to your cell. Disguise Self, need I say more? Remember guys, above all else what you need to play a rogue is a player with quick wit and creativity. If you can come up with a lie so clever and plausible that the DM lets your Bluff Roll slide...then you're the kind of player that really deserves to be playing a rogue. If your idea of dealing with a trio of guards is "All right, no body move or I slit his throat. You there! Knock him out cold for me...here use this" then toss your him your sap and advise him to put his wrist in to it...you ought to play a rogue. Oh! One last bit of advice, every good rogue needs a noble's outfit and a (forged) certificate of nobility. "Really! I'm the Baron's second cousin and I'm here for the ball tomorrow. Honestly what would a burglar be doing in a silk robe and a night cap? Oh fine you go check with him, he's in a right awful mood and he's liable to fire you for disturbing him at this hour. Yes, thank you, I will have a good night."
WCrawford 12-23-04, 08:22 AM	Allow me to put in my own two cents, if I may. Mobility. When getting into 'rogue wars', this can be handy. Also nice for when that tumble check fails (You'll always have that 1 in 20 chance...) and you wind up on the wrong side of a reach weapon (the pointy end). While I'll agree that mobility is a useful feat for rogues, passing on totally incorrect information is never a good idea. Rolling a 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure. I suggest re-reading your PHB. :) Other suggested feats: Improved Feint: This turns the feint attempt into a move action, rather than a standard action. Great for rogues with a high bluff and charisma and without reliable source of flanking. BTW, a feint can be done at range.
ninjarabbit 12-23-04, 08:49 AM	Another idea is to use a reach weapon, more AoO's and you stay out of reach while being able to hit your foe. A level of ranger is perfect for this since there is very little skill drop-off, you get the track feat for free, and you get +2 to your fort and reflex saves.
Razoreface 12-23-04, 10:39 PM	Actually that's just a fighter with a bad attitude. While you should definitely play a character the way you want to without regards to "uber build" concepts, being a useful, contributing member of the party is also important. It's a Rogue... and it's actually one of the ideas presented in song and silence for not having stereotypical rogues. They also contribute just fine. Rogues don't need tons of skill points and be the trap springer to contribute. Even that kind of rogue is quite capable in combat, but you can swing a rogue away from skills and traps and more into thuggish territory, and be just a bit better. But you're still a Rogue, and you can have just as big a contribution as any other character. You're just not playing captain social skills or mister shadowy trap magnet. Even if you manage to get to level 12 with a -2 in Spot, or your character is somehow getting only 4 skill points per level, or can keep up in damage with the party's fighter, or has a level of Sorc and goes around playing a lute and casting spells.. you're a rogue if you're a rogue. If you don't fit what even your DM thinks a rogue is supposed to be, that's not your problem. Rogues are one of the most versatile classes, and can be made to cover the ground that almost any of the other classes do, and quite often, can do it just as good. But just because your rogue hasn't made a disable device, bluff, or open lock check in the entire life of the character doesn't make him less of a rogue. And mages can be really good unarmed. :)
ShneekeyTheLost 12-24-04, 12:03 AM	Thanks for the comments, ShneekeyTheLost. Taking a few levels of sorcerer might not be for everyone, but at low levels when magic items aren't readily available, a few handy spells turn in to life savers. If you're a level 3 Rogue and need to make a quick getaway out the window of a 40' tall tower, Feather Fall! Prestidigitation makes a great distraction. Mage Hand is your get out of jail free card as it allows you to slip the keys off the hook across the hall and move them in to your cell. Disguise Self, need I say more? Feather Fall and Disguise Self scrolls cost 25 gold each. Prestidigitation and Mage Hand scrolls cost 12 gold 5 silver. Cheap enough for even a level one rogue to have a couple if he wants. Prestigitation and Mage Hand wands costs 375 each and Feather Fall and Disguise Self wands cost 750. Each wand starts out with 50 charges. Your average third level rogue should be able to afford one of them at least, if it's something he uses often. Remember guys, above all else what you need to play a rogue is a player with quick wit and creativity. If you can come up with a lie so clever and plausible that the DM lets your Bluff Roll slide...then you're the kind of player that really deserves to be playing a rogue. If your idea of dealing with a trio of guards is "All right, no body move or I slit his throat. You there! Knock him out cold for me...here use this" then toss your him your sap and advise him to put his wrist in to it...you ought to play a rogue. Oh! One last bit of advice, every good rogue needs a noble's outfit and a (forged) certificate of nobility. "Really! I'm the Baron's second cousin and I'm here for the ball tomorrow. Honestly what would a burglar be doing in a silk robe and a night cap? Oh fine you go check with him, he's in a right awful mood and he's liable to fire you for disturbing him at this hour. Yes, thank you, I will have a good night." Heh, I like the way you think! I've actually bluffed my way into firing a guard because he believed that I was a member of the boss's 'secret police'. I snuck up on him, tapped him on the shoulder, then went into a tirade about 'If I was a REAL thief, I would have just gotten past you. And you call yourself a Guard!'. It was one of my better moments. What made it even funnier was I picked his pockets and took his keys while ranting at him and he didn't even notice. WCrawford, thanks for pointing that out to me. I've been playing it where 1 was always a failure and 20 was always a success ever since AD&D, and never bothered changing it... Guess it's just a house rule now. Come to think of it, I think it was a house rule then. Been so long I can't remember anymore. And yea, improved feint is good. Can't believe I forgot that one.
Zucrous 12-24-04, 12:49 AM	three words USE MAGIC DEVICE. With it you can do almost anything you want. "wow look its a rogue with a WHAT? a Holy avenger." Seriously you can do that, basically what UMD does is it tricks the device. My personal favorite skill. by the way you need a pretty massive UMD mod to use a holy avenger.