Post/Author/DateTime	Post
detectevil 01-22-04, 07:53 AM	Shut up, all of you. This is not, I repeat, NOT!, a sneak attack thread. I don't care if rogues only deal sneak attack damage on very specific conditions. I don't care if they have d6 hit dice while fighters have d10. I don't care that it's very easy to be immune to it, and most of all I really don't care what Andy Collins thinks is balanced. Now, we talk. I find sneak attack to be a silly ability. It has completely desvirtued the class. My envision of a rogue is not a ninja, but more of an explorer, a thief or a spy. People devoted to avoid combat at all costs. So, I want to take sneak attack from rogues, but surely not make then useless in combat. For starters, I think a class bonus to AC would be good. You will find out that, while this guys don't deal much damage in a fight, they are really hard to hit. Dodge and mobility are basic things, just not sure they should come as feats for free... I want some opinions now.
dantedarkstar 01-22-04, 08:10 AM	Umm... err... look at Duellist for some abilities (Canny defense, Precise strike). Can't really think of much more to say (except things you don't want to hear anyway).
Pixieboy 01-22-04, 08:28 AM	Lol.. You say you want to talk about flavor, but the next thing you do is bring the combat effectiveness issue up by your self? Lol.. You don't want them to be useless in combat, but you want the sneak attack away? Lol.. That's why it was put there, because people complained that rogues, which IMO are supposed to be characters not so good in combat due to their high effectiveness outside it, weren't faring well enough. Lol.. No given applicaple AC bonus is going to seriously improve any classes combat ability. It's just something that's supposed to look nice as a bonus. Lol.. Duelist sucks. Swashbuckler's suck. And everything with the words light armored + light HP + melee combat associated with it sucks. The only way these classes are going to survive is for your DM to allow you to take that light bukler of +10 and that light armor of +10 and that light weapon of +10 and never attack you. Lol.. What did that have to do with rogues? Nothing, but I take every chance to insult light classes. Lol.. Face it, unless your DM is character friendly even the monk and combat oriented ranger are dead meat. Lol.. A combat effective rogue without sneak attack is going to exist only in your dreams. Lol.. Explorer's, thiefs and spys don't fare in standard D&D. There's other games for that. Lol.. Lol
Geethree 01-22-04, 09:03 AM	Explorer's, thiefs and spys don't fare in standard D&D. There's other games for that. That is wrong. Why else would the books bother printing rules for Rogues, Bards, move silently, hide, bluff, diplomacy, disable device, disguise, forgery, gather information, open lock, sleight of hand...
dantedarkstar 01-22-04, 09:55 AM	Pixieboy, I only wonder... did you even read Duellist ? I can see it written black on white: Hit die: d10 So... fighter is also "light HP" ?
SmiloDan 01-22-04, 10:00 AM	OK, here's some options I would suggest for a sneak attackless rogue: Instead of getting an additional die of sneak attack damage, you receive a bonus feat. This bonus feat must be Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, etc. (any one of the +2/+2 feats) or Skill Focus. Maybe allow feats from Forgotten Realms like Cosmopolitan, Educated, etc. Anything non-combat oriented. Alternatively, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. Kind of like the class related defense bonus from D20 Modern.
Lago AM3P 01-22-04, 11:35 AM	So, I want to take sneak attack from rogues, but surely not make then useless in combat. For starters, I think a class bonus to AC would be good. You will find out that, while this guys don't deal much damage in a fight, they are really hard to hit. Dodge and mobility are basic things, just not sure they should come as feats for free... No. Rogues need either sneak attack, or a real BAB. A 19th level rogue does a bonus of 10d6 damage on sneak attack against about half of the foes, and it's STILL not enough compared to fighter-types who do their best to trick themselves out (while avoiding crap like weapon specialization and whatnot). Because of that BAB. Monks get two extra attacks at their highest BAB, and it's STILL not enough to let them hit as often or do as much damage as full-BAB guys. If you are a combat character at all, you either have full BAB or get boatloads of extra damage somewhere, like sneak attack. Period.
Bacon and Eggs 01-22-04, 12:53 PM	I'm all for the wee house rule that was mentioned long ago that a die of Sneak Attack can be traded in for Skill Focus 3.5. It works for me.
DrakaraGM 01-22-04, 04:33 PM	That was me... :) Here's a more recent blurb of mine from a separate thread, covering the same ground only moreso: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simple house rule -- let a rogue who gains an odd level (including 1st) simply select a Focus Feat instead of gaining the extra sneak attack damage die normally gained at that level. I.e. the rogue gets a bonus feat instead, with only 'Focus' feats available to choose from. He'd still have to satisfy any prerequisites. So at 1st level, i.e. Rogue1 with no other classes, the only valid choice should be Skill Focus, since Weapon Focus requires a BAB of +1 or higher and Spell Focus ought to require that you can actually cast spells of that type... This allows a rogue to forego sneak attack completely if desired, or to just get less of it. The less sneak attack damage dice he has, the more he has of other bonuses. He may have one or more skills with which he has a +3 bonus from Skill Focus, for the skill-based rogue, he may have one or more proficient weapons with which he has a +1 to hit from Weapon Focus, for the straight-forward combat-based rogue, he may have one or more types of spells for which he has a +1 to the DC from Spell Focus, for the multi-classed spellcasting rogue. Or he may have a combination of these, or simply give up a couple dice of sneak attack damage to get a bonus with one skill and one weapon if that is what his character concept involves. -------------------------------------------------------- Many players object to giving a rogue a 'bonus feat' list with any significant flexibility to it, as that may step on the toes of fighters or other characters. By keeping the 'list' down to just the three Focus feats, the character doesn't get to uber-maximize any one feature -- BUT it does allow a rogue who WANTS to be less sneak-attack-oriented and more skilled -- or simply slightly better in combat or spell use -- the option to do exactly that. Amusingly, when suggested previously, some claim that giving up sneak attack really weakens the rogue, while at the same time others claim that giving rogues a large number of bonus feats makes him too good! Cannot have it both ways, but some are heavily focussed on the rogue's ability to sneak attack as being crucial to their ability to contibute to combat, while others are concerned about a rogue's skills being too good already... Personally, I think sneak-attack rogues AND those without that ability but with extra bonuses to skills etc. would both be quite playable -- it all depending on a variety of factors such as (a) the type of campaign, (b) the number of characters in the party, and (c) the other abilities of the specific character. But the beaty of a house rule that provides these simple replacement options at the player's discretion is that the player gets to decide. And unlike taking a different class, he doesn't have to permanently go one way or the other. A rogue might start out with Skill Focus (Spot) instead of +1d6 of sneak attack damage, and then once he has gotten a couple good hit die rolls decide that he wants to take that +1d6 sneak attack at 3rd level. A rogue can develop his skills and abilities gradually in response to the thrust of the campaign -- perhaps taking several dice of sneak attack early on, but then the campaign starts focussing much more on spying and intrigue and less on combat (plus everything seems to have Heavy Fortification or whatever) and so the rogue could start taking things like Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) and Skill Focus (Bluff) and Skill Focus (Disguise)... Another rogue might decide that he just doesn't hit often enough to take full advantage of the sneak attack dice he does have -- so perhaps he will take Weapon Focus in one or two weapons that he uses a lot, rather than extra sneak attack dice, because he wanted to use his character level feats for something 'better' than Weapon Focus but would still like that extra +1 to hit... Or perhaps he is a minor rogue with major spellcaster levels who REALLY doesn't like to get into melee, and instead replaces those first couple sneak attack dice with Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Spell Focus (Evocation) or something. Do all of these choices mean that the standard "+1d6 of sneak attack damage at every odd level" rogue will go out of style? Not at all. The rule would allow a rogue who doesn't have to go that route if he doesn't want to, as well as a normal rogue, and various combinations in the middle...
detectevil 01-23-04, 08:20 AM	I was hoping not to grant rogues bonus feats instead of sneak attack, because it looks too much like a fighter. I was hopping some skill masteries every now and them, a dodge bonus to AC, and so on. I thought of allowing rogues to add their inteligence modifier to their dexterity modifier for the purpose of AC. That way the total bonus would be restricted by armor.
Green 01-23-04, 09:56 AM	Originally posted by detectevil I was hoping not to grant rogues bonus feats instead of sneak attack, because it looks too much like a fighter. I was hopping some skill masteries every now and them, a dodge bonus to AC, and so on. I thought of allowing rogues to add their inteligence modifier to their dexterity modifier for the purpose of AC. That way the total bonus would be restricted by armor. I don't think it'd look too much like a fighter if you limit the combat feat choices to non-frontline tactical maneuvering stuff. So, a rogue's bonus feat list can look like this: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip), Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack?), Exotic Weapon Proficiency?, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Investigator, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency?, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Point-Blank Shot (Precise Shot?), Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Two-Weapon Fighting?, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus? That way, you can have a rogue that is not going toe-to-toe with tanks, but who can, by using cunning and stealth, neutralize a few opponents and protect themselves better when confronted. Yet, they are also no match for a fighter who has trained to fight better in light or no armor and with light weapons (with my alt.fighter, I call them fencers). The ones I listed with a question mark I am unsure about. For a more combat-ready rogue, I can see them making sense, but I also don't want to encourage them to wade into battle with battle axes, greatswords, two-bladed swords, or something else better suited to front-line fighters.
Sensei Gith 01-23-04, 06:18 PM	ROGUES ARE NOT COMBAT CHARACTERS Maybe you should rephrase that to: "There should be a class similar to the rogue but mostly non-combat oriented, instead focusing primarily on skills." Because rogues are combat characters, to a significant degree. With that in mind, you should be able to create a class to fill the empty niche that you mentioned in your first post. There truly is a glaring lack of a PC Expert Class. I think that replacing SA with skill feats is very underpowered. Skill focus and its ilk are weak feats, except in extremely specialized circumstances (an Epic-level mage wants all the spellcraft he can get, and maybe a bard... meh). To compare them to such as Spring Attack and Cleave, or even Dodge, is not accurate in any way. I'd give the class 10 sp/level, d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, one good save of the player's choice, lots of Skill Focus and Skill Mastery, assorted other feats like proficiencies, some sort of specialization, and at least one powerful ability based on Int. This should cover anything from the skilled blacksmith to the charismatic diplomat to the sneaky thief.