a roguish bard . . . [Archive] - Wizards Community

a roguish bard . . . [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nonsi
12-26-05, 01:40 AM let's say that I like the bard a lot, but I don't like bardic abilities flavorwise, would it be a fair trade off to replace all "bardic" abilities to make him identical to the rogue skillwise ??
Lotus Crane
12-26-05, 02:01 AM Wait, what?

Which "bardic" abilities are you talking about? Knowledge? Music?

So you're saying you want a bard who gives up bardic knowledge and music for 8 + Int skill points and a few more class skills?

Or, conversely, a rogue with a good Will save and up to 6th level spells, but none of his usual class special abilities?

Perhaps you should look into Assassin.
Pandaemoni
12-26-05, 02:09 AM I agree that the question is : "What is it that you like about bards and are trying to replicate?"
nonsi
12-26-05, 03:32 AM Which "bardic" abilities are you talking about? Knowledge? Music?

The knowledge is more than welcome. I want to derop the music part completely.

So you're saying you want a bard who gives up bardic knowledge and music for 8 + Int skill points and a few more class skills?

Exactly (plus Trapfinding & Dungeoneering).

Or, conversely, a rogue with a good Will save and up to 6th level spells, but none of his usual class special abilities?

Not exactly. If this tradeoff comes with a loss, I'd be more than happy to heare which rogue class abilities (levels?) would balance it up.

Perhaps you should look into Assassin.

Not interested flavorwise and I'd prefer a solution that would be enjoyable from 1st to 20 level and won't involve multiclassing or PrC's.

In general, I'm looking for the best spell-skill combo, the ultimate solution providing gismo - the true jack of all trades.
Teydyn
12-26-05, 03:46 AM So you want to drop bardic music for +2 skill points, trapfinding and both rogue & bard skill list? (thats every skill beside survival?)

Sounds ok, maybe even a bit on the weak side, for me.
nonsi
12-26-05, 07:45 AM So you want to drop bardic music for +2 skill points, trapfinding and both rogue & bard skill list? (thats every skill beside survival?)

Sounds ok, maybe even a bit on the weak side, for me.

How would you unweak it roguewise, if you were DMing someone who took it ?
Trap sense ?
Evasion (which level?) ?
Uncanny dodge (which level?) ?
Other ability(ies) ?
.
.
.
Maybe not roguewise ?
Teydyn
12-26-05, 02:08 PM How would you unweak it roguewise?
I wouldnt.

If you as a player want something special you have to pay.
This is a BIT weaker, but no way underpowered IMO.

If anything at all, maybe trapsense.
Evasion & Uncanny Dodge would be too good.
Lotus Crane
12-26-05, 03:08 PM Here, let me take a crack at it. This should be relatively balanced against RAW D&D (where base classes range from 208 to 170 points), but it's a little underpowered compared to my re-balanced D&D (where all the base classes are standardized to 200 points). Also, I apologize for not including the spells table, but the thread I copy-and-pasted the table format from didn't include spells, and it's been so long I've forgotten how to do it myself.

Roguish Bard (adventurer, traveler, vagabond, troubleshooter, gypsy, jack-of-all-trades, professional, whatever)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills
All skills are class skills for a roguish bard.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Table: The Roguish Bard
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Talent
2nd +1 +0 +3 +2
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Talent
5th +3 +1 +4 +4
6th +4 +2 +5 +5
7th +5 +2 +5 +5
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Talent
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Talent
Revised Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A roguish bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Roguish bards are proficient with light armor but not with shields
Spellcasting: A roguish bard can cast roguish bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. In other ways however, his spellcasting is different from a normal bard.
A roguish bard's spellcasting is based on Intelligence instead of Charisma, and he must own a spellbook and prepare spells like a wizard (though he still uses the bard's spell list). Adjust the normal bard's spells per day table so that the roguish bard only gain up to a maximum of 3 spells per day of each level instead of 4.
Make the following change's to a the normal bard's spell list for a roguish bard.
0-level: remove summon instrument.
1st-level: remove tasha's hideous laughter and vetriloquism, add shield.
2nd-level: remove shatter and sound burst, add find traps.
3rd-level: remove sculpt sound.
4th-level: remove shout.
5th-level: remove song of discord.
6th-level: remove greater shout, otto's irresistable dance and sympathetic vibration, add mass invisibility and true seeing.
Talent: At 1st level, 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, a roguish bard gains a special ability of his choice from the following list: bardic knowledge, evasion, trapmaster*, uncanny dodge, or any bonus feat he qualifies for. If he already has evasion or uncanny dodge from another class, or if he takes them as talents a second time, he gains improved evasion or improved uncanny dodge instead.
Trapmaster: The roguish bard gains the trapfinding ability of a rogue, plus trap sense +1 for every ten levels of roguish bard he has.

Some notes: What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster.
DrMorganes
12-26-05, 03:16 PM Here, let me take a crack at it. This should be relatively balanced against RAW D&D (where base classes range from 208 to 170 points), but it's a little underpowered compared to my re-balanced D&D (where all the base classes are standardized to 200 points).

Points? Would you please explain this?
Lotus Crane
12-26-05, 03:22 PM Class points, character points, or build/construction points is a theory of class creation/balancing that tries to judge class features in terms of objective, numeric values. There are several approaches and systems regarding this, including BESM D20 and those created by the people on these boards.

It's usually used as a pseudoscientific method of arguing why certain classes are over or underpowered, and how to fix them. Incidentally, even though I know it's a pseudoscience at best, I still believe in it, as you can see from the links in my sig.
nonsi
12-27-05, 02:56 AM Some notes: What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster.

Thanks for the effort, But I really think that the talents you mentioned don't compensate for the penalties you entered, and I don't see how you can excuse the good will saves if you make spell casting INT based.
I tend to think that adding Trap Sense to my concept would match it up with the bard, since the only thing it enhances somewhat is survivability and it doesn't really increase the characters power.

Thanks for straightening my perspective (even if it wasn't intentional ;) ).

======================================== ===============

Edit: Ok, I take that back, Kary Wanzer convinced me. Lotus Cranes version is better, even though I'm all for spontaneous spellcasting (hand-picking the best spells is better than having all spells in a spellbook that can be destroyed or stolen).
Kary Wanzer
12-27-05, 04:07 AM :w: Nonsi hon, what do you mean by penalties? Looking at this, it seems like LC gave you everything you wanted and more. Compared to a normal bard, this seems to:

1) Trade bardic music for more skill points and class skills, and five additional special abilities (five additional, assuming you take bardic knowledge at 1st level like a normal bard, or six total if you don't). So, by 20th level, your bard might have bardic knowledge, trapfinding (and trap sense +2), uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, improved evasion. Or, he could have six bonus feats. By any measure, this is a definate gain in power.
2) Trade bard's shield proficiency for rogue's hand crossbow proficiency - an even trade in terms of feats, but the addition of shield to the spell list (which would be better than a real shield anyway since a real shield still causes arcane spell failure and prevents the hand from being used for somatic components) probably changes things in the roguish bard's favor.
3) Changes bard spellcasting from Cha-spontaneous to Int-prepared. Intelligence is a more valuable ability score (both in general and for spellcasting), and preparing spells from a spellbook like a wizard is essentially like having all your spells be "known." It makes sense to lower the spells per day from 4 to 3, similiar to how a wizard only gets 4 vs a sorcerer's 6. The changes to the spell list was a slight nerf overall (average loss of 1 spell per level), but probably more appropriate for the roguish bard's role. I'd say it balances out in the end, but actually with Int-based casting and no more bardic music, that makes the bard less MAD, which is an advantage.

I'm just a little confused by what you considered "penalties" about this class? This is probably as good as it gets for a resourceful troubleshooter. :u:
FriendlyBiscuit
12-27-05, 05:45 AM What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster.
I, for one, love it! Consider posting it in its own thread for possible addition to the core class compendium. I've always told my players that the Bard is the "true" jack-of-all trades compared to the rogue, if for no other reason than it having martial ability, spellcasting, and skills all in one whereas the rogue only has UMD to fulfill the casting role.
What do you think about adding Sneak Attack (or skirmish or surprise attack etc) dice to the list of special abilities? I don't know how many "points" SA is worth, but I'd bet it's on the high side, perhaps negatable by using one of the SA-like abilities that can use flat-footed states but not flanking. My players' biggest complaint about the bard is (surprisingly) not the MAD, but more lack of anything melee-oriented in its class abilities.
Derren S.
12-27-05, 05:59 AM Oh god. Thats the worst example of cherry picking that I have seen so far.

When you want to play a rogue then play a rogue.
nonsi
12-27-05, 07:03 AM Oh god. Thats the worst example of cherry picking that I have seen so far.

When you want to play a rogue then play a rogue.

want to play a rogue with bard's spells :pbbbtt:
but since you can't win them all without gestalt, this build will do.
Derren S.
12-27-05, 07:59 AM Or you could do a rogue/sorcerer (as you don't like the bard abilities) multiclass.
nonsi
12-27-05, 09:40 AM Or you could do a rogue/sorcerer (as you don't like the bard abilities) multiclass.

but I like the bard spells. this is the only class that has a multi-purpose spell list. moreover, since sorcery is inborn, you can't really multiclass into a sorcerer, meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish).
Derren S.
12-27-05, 10:18 AM meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish).

See what I mean with cherry picking....

The do a rogue/wizard and use Use Magical Items for the spells you can't cast.
rironin
12-27-05, 10:27 AM moreover, since sorcery is inborn, you can't really multiclass into a sorcerer, meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish).I don't see why sorcery is something you can't multiclass into. If you insist that it's an inborn talent, it could still be something that doesn't manifest itself until later in life. Like the powers and abilities of the other classes, sorcery takes time, practice and experience to develop - how else do you explain the way sorcerers progress through levels like anyone else? With that in mind, a character could easily start off as a rogue and only later realize and choose to pursue his own latent abilities as a sorcerer.
CaoSlayer
12-27-05, 12:11 PM you can have then the spellthief from complete adventurer.

You dont ever need to buy the book since it is one the wizard�s book excerpt

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 12-26-05, 01:40 AM	let's say that I like the bard a lot, but I don't like bardic abilities flavorwise, would it be a fair trade off to replace all "bardic" abilities to make him identical to the rogue skillwise ??
Lotus Crane 12-26-05, 02:01 AM	Wait, what? Which "bardic" abilities are you talking about? Knowledge? Music? So you're saying you want a bard who gives up bardic knowledge and music for 8 + Int skill points and a few more class skills? Or, conversely, a rogue with a good Will save and up to 6th level spells, but none of his usual class special abilities? Perhaps you should look into Assassin.
Pandaemoni 12-26-05, 02:09 AM	I agree that the question is : "What is it that you like about bards and are trying to replicate?"
nonsi 12-26-05, 03:32 AM	Which "bardic" abilities are you talking about? Knowledge? Music? The knowledge is more than welcome. I want to derop the music part completely. So you're saying you want a bard who gives up bardic knowledge and music for 8 + Int skill points and a few more class skills? Exactly (plus Trapfinding & Dungeoneering). Or, conversely, a rogue with a good Will save and up to 6th level spells, but none of his usual class special abilities? Not exactly. If this tradeoff comes with a loss, I'd be more than happy to heare which rogue class abilities (levels?) would balance it up. Perhaps you should look into Assassin. Not interested flavorwise and I'd prefer a solution that would be enjoyable from 1st to 20 level and won't involve multiclassing or PrC's. In general, I'm looking for the best spell-skill combo, the ultimate solution providing gismo - the true jack of all trades.
Teydyn 12-26-05, 03:46 AM	So you want to drop bardic music for +2 skill points, trapfinding and both rogue & bard skill list? (thats every skill beside survival?) Sounds ok, maybe even a bit on the weak side, for me.
nonsi 12-26-05, 07:45 AM	So you want to drop bardic music for +2 skill points, trapfinding and both rogue & bard skill list? (thats every skill beside survival?) Sounds ok, maybe even a bit on the weak side, for me. How would you unweak it roguewise, if you were DMing someone who took it ? Trap sense ? Evasion (which level?) ? Uncanny dodge (which level?) ? Other ability(ies) ? . . . Maybe not roguewise ?
Teydyn 12-26-05, 02:08 PM	How would you unweak it roguewise? I wouldnt. If you as a player want something special you have to pay. This is a BIT weaker, but no way underpowered IMO. If anything at all, maybe trapsense. Evasion & Uncanny Dodge would be too good.
Lotus Crane 12-26-05, 03:08 PM	Here, let me take a crack at it. This should be relatively balanced against RAW D&D (where base classes range from 208 to 170 points), but it's a little underpowered compared to my re-balanced D&D (where all the base classes are standardized to 200 points). Also, I apologize for not including the spells table, but the thread I copy-and-pasted the table format from didn't include spells, and it's been so long I've forgotten how to do it myself. Roguish Bard (adventurer, traveler, vagabond, troubleshooter, gypsy, jack-of-all-trades, professional, whatever) Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d6. Class Skills All skills are class skills for a roguish bard. Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier. Table: The Roguish Bard Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Talent 2nd +1 +0 +3 +2 3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Talent 5th +3 +1 +4 +4 6th +4 +2 +5 +5 7th +5 +2 +5 +5 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Talent 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Talent 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Talent 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Talent Revised Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A roguish bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Roguish bards are proficient with light armor but not with shields Spellcasting: A roguish bard can cast roguish bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. In other ways however, his spellcasting is different from a normal bard. A roguish bard's spellcasting is based on Intelligence instead of Charisma, and he must own a spellbook and prepare spells like a wizard (though he still uses the bard's spell list). Adjust the normal bard's spells per day table so that the roguish bard only gain up to a maximum of 3 spells per day of each level instead of 4. Make the following change's to a the normal bard's spell list for a roguish bard. 0-level: remove summon instrument. 1st-level: remove tasha's hideous laughter and vetriloquism, add shield. 2nd-level: remove shatter and sound burst, add find traps. 3rd-level: remove sculpt sound. 4th-level: remove shout. 5th-level: remove song of discord. 6th-level: remove greater shout, otto's irresistable dance and sympathetic vibration, add mass invisibility and true seeing. Talent: At 1st level, 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, a roguish bard gains a special ability of his choice from the following list: bardic knowledge, evasion, trapmaster*, uncanny dodge, or any bonus feat he qualifies for. If he already has evasion or uncanny dodge from another class, or if he takes them as talents a second time, he gains improved evasion or improved uncanny dodge instead. Trapmaster: The roguish bard gains the trapfinding ability of a rogue, plus trap sense +1 for every ten levels of roguish bard he has. Some notes: What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster.
DrMorganes 12-26-05, 03:16 PM	Here, let me take a crack at it. This should be relatively balanced against RAW D&D (where base classes range from 208 to 170 points), but it's a little underpowered compared to my re-balanced D&D (where all the base classes are standardized to 200 points). Points? Would you please explain this?
Lotus Crane 12-26-05, 03:22 PM	Class points, character points, or build/construction points is a theory of class creation/balancing that tries to judge class features in terms of objective, numeric values. There are several approaches and systems regarding this, including BESM D20 and those created by the people on these boards. It's usually used as a pseudoscientific method of arguing why certain classes are over or underpowered, and how to fix them. Incidentally, even though I know it's a pseudoscience at best, I still believe in it, as you can see from the links in my sig.
nonsi 12-27-05, 02:56 AM	Some notes: What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster. Thanks for the effort, But I really think that the talents you mentioned don't compensate for the penalties you entered, and I don't see how you can excuse the good will saves if you make spell casting INT based. I tend to think that adding Trap Sense to my concept would match it up with the bard, since the only thing it enhances somewhat is survivability and it doesn't really increase the characters power. Thanks for straightening my perspective (even if it wasn't intentional ;) ). ======================================== =============== Edit: Ok, I take that back, Kary Wanzer convinced me. Lotus Cranes version is better, even though I'm all for spontaneous spellcasting (hand-picking the best spells is better than having all spells in a spellbook that can be destroyed or stolen).
Kary Wanzer 12-27-05, 04:07 AM	:w: Nonsi hon, what do you mean by penalties? Looking at this, it seems like LC gave you everything you wanted and more. Compared to a normal bard, this seems to: 1) Trade bardic music for more skill points and class skills, and five additional special abilities (five additional, assuming you take bardic knowledge at 1st level like a normal bard, or six total if you don't). So, by 20th level, your bard might have bardic knowledge, trapfinding (and trap sense +2), uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, improved evasion. Or, he could have six bonus feats. By any measure, this is a definate gain in power. 2) Trade bard's shield proficiency for rogue's hand crossbow proficiency - an even trade in terms of feats, but the addition of shield to the spell list (which would be better than a real shield anyway since a real shield still causes arcane spell failure and prevents the hand from being used for somatic components) probably changes things in the roguish bard's favor. 3) Changes bard spellcasting from Cha-spontaneous to Int-prepared. Intelligence is a more valuable ability score (both in general and for spellcasting), and preparing spells from a spellbook like a wizard is essentially like having all your spells be "known." It makes sense to lower the spells per day from 4 to 3, similiar to how a wizard only gets 4 vs a sorcerer's 6. The changes to the spell list was a slight nerf overall (average loss of 1 spell per level), but probably more appropriate for the roguish bard's role. I'd say it balances out in the end, but actually with Int-based casting and no more bardic music, that makes the bard less MAD, which is an advantage. I'm just a little confused by what you considered "penalties" about this class? This is probably as good as it gets for a resourceful troubleshooter. :u:
FriendlyBiscuit 12-27-05, 05:45 AM	What do you think of this particular remix? I felt trapfinding by itself wasn't as worthwhile as the other talents (especially since find traps is now on the spell list), while a full trap sense +6 (or +1 per three class levels) was too good, so trapmaster was my compromise. Also, with the loss of all bardic music abilities, I felt that it would also be better to remove the focus on sound from the spell list, and add a few more utility spells. Finally, I added the rogue's hand crossbow to the bard's weapon proficiencies, but removed shield proficiency, since that doesn't seem to fit with an Int-based, book-owning caster. I, for one, love it! Consider posting it in its own thread for possible addition to the core class compendium. I've always told my players that the Bard is the "true" jack-of-all trades compared to the rogue, if for no other reason than it having martial ability, spellcasting, and skills all in one whereas the rogue only has UMD to fulfill the casting role. What do you think about adding Sneak Attack (or skirmish or surprise attack etc) dice to the list of special abilities? I don't know how many "points" SA is worth, but I'd bet it's on the high side, perhaps negatable by using one of the SA-like abilities that can use flat-footed states but not flanking. My players' biggest complaint about the bard is (surprisingly) not the MAD, but more lack of anything melee-oriented in its class abilities.
Derren S. 12-27-05, 05:59 AM	Oh god. Thats the worst example of cherry picking that I have seen so far. When you want to play a rogue then play a rogue.
nonsi 12-27-05, 07:03 AM	Oh god. Thats the worst example of cherry picking that I have seen so far. When you want to play a rogue then play a rogue. want to play a rogue with bard's spells :pbbbtt: but since you can't win them all without gestalt, this build will do.
Derren S. 12-27-05, 07:59 AM	Or you could do a rogue/sorcerer (as you don't like the bard abilities) multiclass.
nonsi 12-27-05, 09:40 AM	Or you could do a rogue/sorcerer (as you don't like the bard abilities) multiclass. but I like the bard spells. this is the only class that has a multi-purpose spell list. moreover, since sorcery is inborn, you can't really multiclass into a sorcerer, meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish).
Derren S. 12-27-05, 10:18 AM	meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish). See what I mean with cherry picking.... The do a rogue/wizard and use Use Magical Items for the spells you can't cast.
rironin 12-27-05, 10:27 AM	moreover, since sorcery is inborn, you can't really multiclass into a sorcerer, meaning you can't start out as a rogue for the starting skill buffer (pretty much kills what one would want to acomplish).I don't see why sorcery is something you can't multiclass into. If you insist that it's an inborn talent, it could still be something that doesn't manifest itself until later in life. Like the powers and abilities of the other classes, sorcery takes time, practice and experience to develop - how else do you explain the way sorcerers progress through levels like anyone else? With that in mind, a character could easily start off as a rogue and only later realize and choose to pursue his own latent abilities as a sorcerer.
CaoSlayer 12-27-05, 12:11 PM	you can have then the spellthief from complete adventurer. You dont ever need to buy the book since it is one the wizard�s book excerpt