Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 02-17-08, 01:29 AM	I'm going to be helping a new player build her character tomorrow, and in the only freeform RPG I've played with her, she's playing a shapeshifter. She really likes the concept, so I thought I'd ask if there was a good shapeshifter class (or species, if the LA is +3 or lower) that wasn't a druid. The party already has a druid, so I think both myself and the player would prefer something unique to the group. I'll ask her tomorrow, of course, but for now I'd like to hear some options. Thanks!
dman11235 02-17-08, 01:35 AM	You know, you could go a totally different route than the current druid. Well, the Shifter works at LA +0. And you could do Shifter Druid sub levels. There is a Ranger variant that gets you wildshape, and the shapeshifting druid variant (which is one way to vary your druid). Bear Warrior is a FUN PrC for barbarians. The Master of Many Forms PrC tagged on to druid along with the Warshaper PrC (CAdv and CW respectively) makes a melee powerhouse. No spells worth noting though.
Master_Vega 02-17-08, 01:49 AM	I understand the player could make a very different druid from the already existing one. I'm simply looking to give the new player some more options if she wishes to take a different class to begin with. Is the Psion (Egoist) any good with shapeshifting? I know it has a shapeshifting power, which of course would have to wait until seventh level, but the lack of BAB (if that applies) would probably hurt it... Any thoughts on that?
JaronK 02-17-08, 02:14 AM	Wildshape Varient Ranger (UA) can do it, especially combined with the Master of Many Forms PrC. JaronK
Qube 02-17-08, 06:20 AM	Wildshape Varient Ranger (UA) can do it, especially combined with the Master of Many Forms PrC. JaronKI agree: but it really need Master of Many Forms: his wildshape alone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) is really bad ... the combination on the other hand is great: the good BAB from the ranger lets you end (at lvl 20) with BAB +17 and wildshape in almost anything ... mages and psions can also be a shapeshifter (shapechange, polymorph, ...) but I recon their d4 hp can really hurt ...
kelvinaw273 02-17-08, 06:21 AM	How about using a Wilder with Expanded Knowledge feat to get that power? They have much better BAB and such. Or a Psychic Warrior can use some nifty powers (to give you claws, bite and tough skin) or maybe even go for a shifter psy war aiming at weretouched master buffed with those powers ...
JaronK 02-17-08, 06:22 AM	I agree: but it really need Master of Many Forms: his wildshape alone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) is really bad ... the combination on the other hand is great: the good BAB from the ranger lets you end (at lvl 20) with BAB +17 and wildshape in almost anything ... Yeah, just Wild Shape Ranger 20 won't do it, but Wild Shape Ranger 10/MoMF 10 (taking the MoMF levels ASAP) is great, and makes you different from the Druid. JaronK
dman11235 02-17-08, 12:13 PM	Also warshaper. A few levels of warshaper are nice. Lowers the BAB, but the strength boost makes up for that.
Qube 02-18-08, 02:56 AM	Also warshaper. A few levels of warshaper are nice. Lowers the BAB, but the strength boost makes up for that.true, but I'dd only take it after MoMF I'dd go with ranger5/MoMF10/warshaper4*/ranger1 in that order: -lvl 1-5: learn how to fight (high BAB, fav enemy, ...) -lvl 6-15: learn almost every shape to wildshape in, and at the end do it at will -lvl 16-19: improve your wildshape abilities (more damage, reach, ...) -lvl 20: prepare for epic ... (*: warshaper lvl 5 is useless for MoMF; ranger 1 gives +1 on attack, +1 on save and an additional spell (it is the last chance since once epic, everyone gets the same BAB and saves, being 1 per 2 levels) )
JaronK 02-18-08, 04:45 AM	IIRC, neither Warshaper nor MoMF extends time in Wild Shape, so if you do that build you'll only get one Wild Shape per day for 5 hours. Not that great... I'd rather get up to two Wild Shapes for a longer period. JaronK
Qube 02-18-08, 05:58 AM	IIRC, neither Warshaper nor MoMF extends time in Wild Shape, so if you do that build you'll only get one Wild Shape per day for 5 hours.IIRC ( I don't have the book here) MoMF increases the number of times you can do it; and is the duration level dependenant? if so I reacon It will also stack with MoMF
Lawkeeper 02-18-08, 07:58 AM	IIRC, neither Warshaper nor MoMF extends time in Wild Shape, so if you do that build you'll only get one Wild Shape per day for 5 hours. Not that great... I'd rather get up to two Wild Shapes for a longer period. JaronK Please check the master FAQ. It explicitly says otherwise, in the only MoMF-related entry. Basically, MoMF levels stack with whichever class gave the ability for duration/HD issues.;) Ranger5/MoMF10/Warshaper5 is indeed one of the best combos for a non-spellcasting wildshaper. Complete Champion's alternate class feature for the ranger is to drop spellcasting to get bonus feats every 4th (IIRC) level - might be more useful that a handful (depending on Wis) 1st-lvl spells. But you're correct about warshaper not improving wildshape. So, it might be better to substitute Nature's Warrior for Warshaper (and you could keep a very small spellcasting, as well as better BAB overall).
dman11235 02-18-08, 11:54 AM	That should have been an Errata issue though. The class never says that it stacks, and had no ability that suggested otherwise. Now, why is the 5th level of Warshaper useless? You can change forms without expending a wildshape. That's pretty useful right there. That means that in the same use of wildshape you can go from gargantuan dragon to medium human. And back if you need to. Also, immunity to crits. Boost to strength and con. Fast healing (better than the NW version). Reach. Increased damage that stacks with INA (since it's an actual increase). And the changing without expending thing. I think Warshaper is a little better than Nature's Warrior. Also, you don't care about itterative attacks, so BAB is just a boost to your AB. That +1 over warshaper isn't doing much.
Bergtann 02-18-08, 12:03 PM	true, but I'dd only take it after MoMF I'dd go with ranger5/MoMF10/warshaper4*/ranger1 in that order: -lvl 1-5: learn how to fight (high BAB, fav enemy, ...) -lvl 6-15: learn almost every shape to wildshape in, and at the end do it at will -lvl 16-19: improve your wildshape abilities (more damage, reach, ...) -lvl 20: prepare for epic ... (*: warshaper lvl 5 is useless for MoMF; ranger 1 gives +1 on attack, +1 on save and an additional spell (it is the last chance since once epic, everyone gets the same BAB and saves, being 1 per 2 levels) ) I used to think that, untill it was pointed out to me that Warshaper 5 actually gives the MoMF the ability to shapeshift at will. Basically infinite Wildshape uses. For shapeshifting anyway, I wouldn't allow it to fuel wild feats. But hey, you do heal 1 hp every time you change... Anyway, I second Wildshaping Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper. There are a couple of other options, however... The Shapeshifter from Oriental Adventures gives Wildshape ability. The Primeval from Frostburn has a single very powerful Wildshape. Bear Warrior is less powerful, but easier to qualify for. All the above goes well with a bit of Warshaper. MoMF does not synergize great with Primeval, but might extend the time you can spend in the form. However, most people who wants to play a shapeshifter will like the MoMF. The ability to just set your own looks every day rocks for someone who gets into their character.
dman11235 02-18-08, 12:11 PM	Those aren't actually wild shape though. They are similar, but shapechange wouldn't qualify you for MoMF, now, would it?
Bergtann 02-18-08, 12:20 PM	Those aren't actually wild shape though. They are similar, but shapechange wouldn't qualify you for MoMF, now, would it? I am unsure about Bear Warrior. The OA Shpeshifter specifically gives Wild Shape, though. The Primeval was the subject of a discussion on the boards where the consensus was that yes, it does qualify as wildshape for such purposes. It is those bits about "Druids wild shape except..." I am also unsure about this, but I think Bear Warrior Might Qualify for Shapeshifter. Anyone got the 3.5 update to the class?
dman11235 02-18-08, 12:36 PM	Actually, I wasn't referring to Shapeshift. I have no idea what that one is. I should have been more clear. Bear warrior is definitely not wildshape though. Primeval I'm pretty sure is not WS either.
Silverclaw 02-18-08, 02:21 PM	MOMF would probably fit very well on what you want... bu t you could of course also take a look at the Divine minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template... combining the two things might be too overpowered but on their own they work fine...
Master_Vega 02-18-08, 05:00 PM	Well, the player decided to play a half-dragon instead, but thanks for the advice everyone!
Qube 02-19-08, 03:14 AM	Now, why is the 5th level of Warshaper useless? You can change forms without expending a wildshape.doesn't MoMF 10 also give you that? edit: well what do you know ... they don't then warshaper5 is definately the one to take !
Lawkeeper 02-19-08, 05:05 AM	That should have been an Errata issue though. Why ? It's already in the FAQ - the one that is downloadable from Wizards' very own website. Official piece of rule. Same value as an errata that would be downloaded from the exact same page anyway.
dman11235 02-19-08, 10:52 AM	Because the class never had anything in it that pointed towards a possible stacking, like they left it out of the class. It's should have been errata'd so that ability was in there. FAQ clarifies, Errata fixes.
Lawkeeper 02-19-08, 11:08 AM	I disagree. FAQ and Errata's come from the same source : WotC. It's the game's editor, the only source of 100%-pure official rules. Fixing or clarifying a feature is essentially the same in most cases - such as this. What you see as fixing, I see it as clarifying. It's a matter of personal perception - but endline is "it comes from WotC, so it's official". In other words, a later FAQ would over-rule a previous Errata - and a later Errata could over-rule a previous FAQ statement. Whatever they name it, it's the last ruling that matter. Source and date matter, not form. Now, on the MoMF : it had the mention that it stacked for the number of times/day. And didn't say it didn't stack for the HD limit. So, it did split up a class feature that was ordinarily "whole". Hence confusion (hey, even now all spellcasting-improving PrC explicitly say they don't improve other class features - unless specified otherwise). It was an obscurely-worded ability, hence the question needed to be asked. And was. And was answered. And confirmed.
dman11235 02-19-08, 11:19 AM	Errata does stuff like fix typos. FAQ just takes existing wording and clarify them (as long as the question is asked). And the FAQ could never overturn an Errata. Errata could overturn an FAQ though. Errata is RAW (an adjustment to the wording), FAQ is just answers to questions. They are both official though. And FAQ has been wrong before. It actually says that you gain an additional use per class level. That's not the same as stacking.
Lawkeeper 02-20-08, 03:50 AM	Errata does stuff like fix typos. FAQ just takes existing wording and clarify them (as long as the question is asked). And the FAQ could never overturn an Errata. Errata could overturn an FAQ though. Errata is RAW (an adjustment to the wording), FAQ is just answers to questions. They are both official though. And FAQ has been wrong before. Let us disagree then. I stand by the fact that the FAQ which WotC puts on its website. It's as official as erratas, since both are only released on the website. Same medium, same source = same value. And Errata may overturn FAQ, I agreed with that - only because the errata would be released after the FAQ. A FAQ per-se does not properly change the wording of a rule, but it's not needed when all you have to say is how it is meant to be understood.