Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_narrator 07-30-07, 01:37 AM	Yes, it's another attempted Fighter fix. You've seen a thousand of them, maybe they've worked, maybe they haven't, who knows? This is my version that I've been working on, and I like to think that it addresses at least a few of the problems I've seen. I'd like for some folks to go over it and provide some insight. Also, I'd love if somebody could tell me the stat block code so I can put this up without destroying minds. This is all very much in the rough draft stage, so not organized overly much. Basically I'll list some of the problems I think the class has, and then my solutions. Problem 1: Fighters have laughably few (almost to a useless extent) skill points and class skills. In my thinking, a Fighter must have honed senses and a tactical mind to survive. Solution: Increase SP per level to 4+int. Add Listen, Search, and Spot to class skill list, and allow the player to choose two more class skills in addition. This allow for more varied character concepts regarding skills. Problem 2: Fighters have two bad saves, vastly decreasing their usefulness against casters in low and high levels. Solution: Add good Reflex save. As a master of physical combat, a Fighter should show fairly great reflexes as it is. This also ups the survivability of the Fighter in the lower levels where Reflex-based spell saves can really ruin your day. Problem 3: Because of the level of specialization needed, a Fighter remains locked into one role regarding feat selection, leaving little room for adaptability, which is supposed to be one of the Fighter's strong suits. Most powerful Fighter concepts leave almost no room for the Fighter-specific specialization skills. Solution: Make the Weapon Focus tree (From Weapon Focus to Supremacy) class abilities without removing feats. Add in a Warblade-esque weapon feat retraining ability. Possibly lose the first-level bonus feat (WF, feat, and Aptitude at first level is a bit much). Problem 3: A Fighter specializing in one combat style can still be worse at it than another class. Specifically, a damage-dealing Fighter will still be outclassed by a Rogue in terms of damage potential, but the Rogue will still have skills, abilities, and whatnot to back that up. A tank-based Fighter will still be shown up by a Knight when it comes to being beaten on and absorbing damage. Also, Fighters don't scale. Solution: Add in Style abilities. Preliminary thoughts have lead me to consider three style trees, which would be Tank, Skirmisher, and Pulverizer (working names). Respectively focusing on the roles of Tanking (dug), light armored combat, and heavy two-handed damage combat. Included in these styles would be scaling bonuses to damage or AC or DR or something of the sort. So, what do you all think of this so far? Next, I'll post some preliminary thoughts on the style trees.
the_narrator 07-30-07, 01:59 AM	Style Trees: Concept- Class abilities which grant the Fighter scaling abilities not found in feats. Each ability scales with Fighter levels to an extent. The three style trees I've been considering are Skirmisher/ Light-armored Fighter, Tank, and a heavy two-handed damage dealer (working name: Pulverizer). So there we have abilities working of Strength (Pulverizer), Dexterity (Skirmisher), and Constitution (Tank). The initial idea is to apply these styles once every five levels. The first level, however, only has two choices which set the tone for the character. Those choices are such: Defender: Upon choosing this style, the Fighter gains the ability to add one-half his Fighter level to his AC when fighting defensively, or his entire Fighter level while on Total Defense. (This gives a tank-type the ability to avoid damage at most levels, but the restrictions mean that the Fighter will probably not be doing much in the way of damage.) Destroyer: Upon choosing this style, the Fighter gains the ability to add half of his Fighter class level to damage, to a maximum of +10 at level 20. (This, on top of other damage-increasing abilities, allows the Fighter to better keep pace with other classes in terms of damage. My main concern is that it is not enough damage, and the ability might be reconfigured to add 3/4 the Fighter level to damage, but the calculations get messy there.) At level five, the real combat styles are chosen, each with a requirement of an initial style. Skirmisher (Requires Destroyer style): Upon selecting this style path, the Fighter gains the ability to add his Dexterity bonus to his hit and damage INSTEAD OF his Strength score. While using a weapon such, the Fighter effectively treats the weapon as being effected by Weapon Finesse, even if the feat cannot be applied to the weapon normally. This ability can only be applied while the Fighter is wearing light or no armor, carrying no heavier than a medium load, and not using a shield. (I've heard a lot of nay-saying to applying Dexterity to damage, but I feel that as it is, Fighters have far too much MAD for such a straight-forward class. Also, with light armor and no shield, the armor class is going to be suffering heavily for a front-line Fighter. I honestly feel that it balances out, especially since it automatically disallows any cheesery involving Power Attack since any weapon is technically being Finessed.) Pulverizer (Requires Destroyer style): Upon selecting this ability, the Fighter may add twice his Strength modifier to damage while using a two-handed melee weapon. (I feel this is straight-foreward, and scales nicely with level. At level 1 with 18 Str, you're looking at an extra 2 damage. But at level 20 with some ungodly Str score, it's a whole different ball game.) Tank (Requires Defender style): Upon selecting this style, the Fighter is granted DR 1/- equal to his Constitution modifier while fighting defensively or on total defense. (One of the biggest abilities a tanking character needs is damage mitigation. I felt that giving even more AC would be detrimental to the character focused on taking hits for the team as a creature is less likely to attack something it can't hit. When it comes to defending others, one wants DR and Fast Healing in my opinion.) Any suggestions regarding these? I know that with these styles, the Fighter really rockets up the power scale, but still falls far below the feet of the Casters. I feel that now it rests comfortably with the Rogue and Barbarian. More abilities to add later.
Sleepwalker13666 07-30-07, 02:06 AM	Also, I'd love if somebody could tell me the stat block code so I can put this up without destroying minds. Did you mean spoiler tabs like this? If so, at the beginning of sentence you wish to block off, put {sblock} and {/sblock} replacing {} with []. Also if you wish to call it something besides spoiler, on the first one change it to {sblock=whatever you wish to call it}
ArochanoX 07-31-07, 12:35 AM	use {code} {/code} tags to create your fighter progression more readable. lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 . + + + + ... . . . . . .
the_narrator 07-31-07, 12:58 AM	Thanks alot, I'll go reformat my posts.
lowendz113 07-31-07, 02:02 AM	First off, let it be said, that I feel fighters get the shaft big time. That being said, I don't think you offer the appropriate fix. First off Problem 3: Because of the level of specialization needed, a Fighter remains locked into one role regarding feat selection, leaving little room for adaptability, which is supposed to be one of the Fighter's strong suits. Most powerful Fighter concepts leave almost no room for the Fighter-specific specialization skills. I don't know if you've ever seen what happens when a rouge tries to be a fighter, but just in case you haven't, I'll tell you what happens; they die. They die fast and in a big way. They also have a problem hitting their opponents. Knights can take punishment sure, but when it comes to being well rounded, a fighter will out class them every time. I like the free weapon focus tree, it grants fighters the ability to use their feats a little more freely. The focus move around thing would definitely help out and the skill thing is a must, I think. The other stuff, I could take it or leave it really. Nothing has really seemed that great to me, and honestly seems more like prestige class material, not core class. Really I think the armor is what screws over a fighter. All the armor in the game sucks I think. The limited movement with medium amour sucks, and the ACP for heavy armor makes their limited skills completely useless. So maybe throw on an advanced armor training that will free up some of that for fighters. Thats really all I've got for now.
the_narrator 07-31-07, 02:41 AM	Thanks for the reply, I have a few things to say in defense. @Rogues being Fighters: I have seen Rogues try to be Fighters, and you're right, they do die fast. But a properly played Rogue that works with his team works much, much better. I say this with a large amount of experience playing combat-based Rogues, so I'm not just pulling it out of nowhere. When it comes down to brass tacks, I've found a well-played Rogue can dishe out more damage with fewer conditionals turn by turn than a properly-built damage-dealing Fighter. @Knight: You're right, a Knight can take a bigger beating, and it does lack a Fighter's "versatility". But whe you're looking at a concept which almost immediately eats up your entire feat tree, how versatile are you? A charging based Fighter spends the majority of his feats on movement and damage, with almost no room to spare for any other concept feats. Likewise for a tank-based Fighter. The main thing I'm trying to do is to make the Fighter versatile like they were meant to be, but also be pretty decent at one thing. Not quite a jack-of-all-trades, but a much more well-rounded character. I appreciate your imput on the subject, keep it coming!
lowendz113 07-31-07, 12:37 PM	Also one thing you have to think about is that fighters make the best supplement class in the game. When I say supplement class, I mean a class that you just take a couple of levels in order to boost your combat prowess and prepare you for prestige classes. Taking 5 levels of fighter in order to expedite your way into your prestige class gives you plenty of versatile feats and a decent chunk of power. Here is what I think: d12 hit die 4+ skills (and the skills you suggested) reduced ACP and the versatile focus thing Now I don't think this is enough, so I say we keep at it. The tank, skirmisher, and pulverizer ideas I'm sorta iffy on. They just don't seem like core class material. I'll be back to talk some more.
LoneFlame 07-31-07, 01:03 PM	Actually, with the right variants, the Rogue makes a decent front-line guy. Anywayz, there have been eighty billion Fighter remakes, and so far none of them seem to have hit the definitive "end all attempts at remaking because it undeniably does the job right" mark.
RobbyPants 07-31-07, 01:16 PM	Problem 3: Because of the level of specialization needed, a Fighter remains locked into one role regarding feat selection, leaving little room for adaptability, which is supposed to be one of the Fighter's strong suits. Most powerful Fighter concepts leave almost no room for the Fighter-specific specialization skills. Solution: Make the Weapon Focus tree (From Weapon Focus to Supremacy) class abilities without removing feats. Add in a Warblade-esque weapon feat retraining ability. Possibly lose the first-level bonus feat (WF, feat, and Aptitude at first level is a bit much). This part of your problem/solution is similar to what I've done for my fix (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=845103). I took away the bonus feat at first level, replacing it with WF and weapon aptitude (for weapon-specific feat retraining). Other than that, the basic idea behind the fix was to incorporate the combat focus feats from the PHBII in as opposed to the Weapon Focus tree. I added in some other abilities to give the fighter versitile options without really increasing his power. Feel free to use what you may or may not want to from it. ;)
zephyrTR 07-31-07, 01:28 PM	I wouldn't want to have different 'kinds' of fighters like rangers or wizards. The point of the fighter is you can make him work however you want, particularly with all the supplemental books at your fingertips. If you have to pick a kind of fighter, thats going to force players into one kind of 'build'. I too am looking at a way to fix fighter though, especially since I just tweaked barb. Here's what I came up with: 1 - You may give up proficiency with med/heavy/tower for good ref base save. 2 - Combat Reflexes instead of bonus feat 3 - Parry (use attack of opportunity to make an opposed to hit roll in order to deflect an attack that would've hit you, cannot use natural weapons with this ability, cannot use this ability while flat-footed) 6 - Counter (on a successful parry, counterattack at your highest BAB) 11 - Devastating counter (double threat range on a counter) higher levels.... I duno. I also think there should be more skills for a warrior: sense motive, bluff, knowledge (history), & maybe spot
natzero 07-31-07, 02:48 PM	zephyr you took the words right outta my mouth with the parry and counter strike idea. now this is gunna sound very familiar to all the world of warcraft ppl out there (i quit tho yay) you have parry, now how about a block type, when you have a shield equipped you can make an opposed str check, if won gives you a dr(armor bonus of shield)/with an ever increasing overcome for example lvl 1 with a large steel shield you beat the opponent in a str check you block the attack you gain dr2/- now lets say at lvl 5 you get double your shields armor bonus same shield and lets say the reduction becomes stronger dr4/admantite now lvl 10 3 times shield dr6/magic etc this may end up strong lemme see at lvl 20 dr10/+2 not too bad considering some creatures are much more powerful and its a free passive ability while your shield is equipped. for any who may see it as overpowered it really isnt if you think about it. at lvl 15 a human fighter if lucky may have 20-22 str with starting 18 and increasing every 4 lvls thats a 10+6 for opposed str roll. rlly it will only work against half the creatures out there. dragons have an easy win and other creatures aswell. although with certain feats it is also increased for one endurance or kobold endurance. also if you played a goliath you also get bonuses. ok i ranted for a while lemme know wut you think
natzero 07-31-07, 02:58 PM	perhaps one could also say that after a successful block the creature is subject to AoO from all adjacent allies of the fighter, aswell as the fighter himself. now whether pr not this allows abilities such as sneak attack or skirmish to apply their extra dmg is up for discussion, however i imagine a creature that is blocked would be thrown at least slightly off balance. for the block aswell better shields stack proportionately with the dr. a +2 shield will be dr4 at lvl 1, then 8,12,16,20. which is more likely for a 20th level fighter. although in that case making the dr overcoming factor the quality of the shield is more appropriate.
zephyrTR 07-31-07, 03:58 PM	but +ac from shields is supposed to be from you blocking attacks. You'd have to completely change the bonuses from shields for it to make sense.
the_narrator 08-01-07, 02:14 AM	Also one thing you have to think about is that fighters make the best supplement class in the game. When I say supplement class, I mean a class that you just take a couple of levels in order to boost your combat prowess and prepare you for prestige classes. Taking 5 levels of fighter in order to expedite your way into your prestige class gives you plenty of versatile feats and a decent chunk of power. That's probably my biggest problem (and by virtue the biggest reason for finding a fix) with the class as it is. I hold firm to the belief that every core (or even base) class should be able to stand on its own two legs without support from PrCs. While I do appreciate dips in the class for the purpose of rounding off builds and such, I'm really in this to see if I can work out a playable Fighter for games with my group. Here is what I think: d12 hit die 4+ skills (and the skills you suggested) reduced ACP and the versatile focus thing Now I don't think this is enough, so I say we keep at it. The tank, skirmisher, and pulverizer ideas I'm sorta iffy on. They just don't seem like core class material. I'll be back to talk some more. I'll agree with you on this, the styles very much do not feel like core material, which has actually been my own stumbling block. I've just found that, even after granting a free specialization tree, a Fighter dedicated to one of the two concepts (damage and defense) is still being outperformed by other classes. Even when combining those features with all the other feats from the various splat books the class is still falling short. The problem, for me at least, seems to be coming from the fact that feats just don't scale up with level. Another problem I had with the class as written was that, aside from one build I've seen (A high-sword-low-axe AoO-tripping build), a Fighter just would not be utilizing his best interests when using two weapons because of the lack of bonus damage. I feel that between scaling damage and a style tree more or less custom cut for two weapons, some strides are taken to curtail that problem. Also, soon I'll be putting in the second stage of the style trees, if anyone is at all interested (at this point the styles seem to be more for me to keep track of them in case I lose my notebook!).
natzero 08-01-07, 11:20 AM	zephyr i dont see how anything would have to be changed. the shield bonus still presents both its block chance and dr. the +2 shield armor bonus is a armor bonus alone. a higher one prevents the enemy from hitting your body which a shield does help prevent so the armor bonus stays. now when an enemy hits you he may be striking your shield, we dont know so benefit of the doubt you make a str check opposed to him. if you win it your shield takes some of the hit for you, it only makes sense if you are hit in your shield arm yes the sword causes you to grunt in pain however you still have your arm. i dont see how in any way giving a shield dr is interfering will its current shield armor bonus. the better the shield the stronger it is therefore the harder it is to penetrate and the more damage it would prevent you from taking.