A slightly odd rogue/paladin variant concept: the Constable [Archive] - Wizards Community

A slightly odd rogue/paladin variant concept: the Constable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
02-22-07, 03:32 PM "Look: I can't force you to turn yourself in, Gremek, because that was an agreement for this meeting. I can tell you this, though: I know that you know that the Syndicate will have you dead in a week if you aren't in our custody. I know that you know that you have nowhere to run. My original offer was generous enough, but it's futile to try to hold out for a better deal when we both know that you have to accept it anyway."

The goblin scowled and stood up, and seemed on the verge of storming out of the smoky bar in rage. The constable retained his calm, steady gaze, while sipping from his mug of ale. Gremek calmed a bit as his bluff was called.

"Before I turn myself in, I need to know more about how you're going to protect my daughters from the Syndicate."

"We'll help protect them, and we already have officers ready to contact them, although exactly what they do, from a permanent polymorphed alternate identity to moving to another city, will be up to them. Let's go over some possibilities..."

Here's the logic behind this class:

1. Per UA, fighters can trade bonus feats for sneak attack, and rogues can trade sneak attack for bonus feats.

2.As such, +1d6 sneak attack every odd level approximately worth one fighter bonus feat every even level and one at first level, if UA is somewhat balanced.

3. Per the PHB, paladins are basically fighters with paladin features (smite, detect, spellcasting, etc) rather than bonus feats (also, no tower shield proficiency, but that doesn't matter too much).

4. As such, a bonus feat every even level and one at 1st level is balanced against the supernatural features of paladins, if the PHB is somewhat balnced.

The idea behind the Constable?

Take a rogue. Get rid of the Sneak Attack, which is worth about 11 feats. Add paladin features like Detect Evil, Divine Grace, and the like, along with an LG alignment restriction and a code of conduct (the code of conduct might be modified a bit, to make it a bit less "chivalrous knight" and a bit more "good cop."), which are also worth about 11 feats.

Some paladin features go well here: detect evil, lay on hands, divine grace, divine health, aura of courage, turn undead and such are all fine. Spellcasting is likewise fine (although maybe a few spells might be swapped -- for instance "bless" might be replaced with "bane" and "greater magic weapon" might be replaced with "bestow curse," since constables are more likely to be interested in making bad guys less effective than making their allies more effective, since an overall "lower-intensity" battle is less likely to lead to the deaths of potentially valuable suspects or harm to third party bystanders).

A few sticking points:

-the paladin's mount -- Sure, there are mounted police and all that, but it just doesn't seem as likely to be useful as for a normal paladin. "Charging smite" seems like it won't fit much better.

-Smite evil -- might be less likely to go with a lightly-armored combat style which involves a lot of hiding, moving silently, etc.

Anyway, any idea on how to finesse these two features which don't play well with a low-HD, 3/4 BAB, lightly armored, highly skilled class?
Infinitive
02-22-07, 05:18 PM A couple of points of consideration, though I DO love your idea.

Maybe open up Constable for any Lawful alignment? Justice is theoretically supposed to be blind (neutral). More, even LE societies need individuals to enforce the law.

I like the idea of a "detect alignment" sort of spell-like ability, one that functions much as the Paladin Detect Evil one. Admittedly, Detect Chaos might be the better specific version.

Here's a couple of ideas if you're really shooting for the "Constable" concept as something distinct from paladins:

A class feature that functions like "Bring 'em Back Alive", from the Justicair PrC.

If any spell list is associated with this class, it should include almost exclusively spells that put nonlethal debuffs on your targets (and are not castable very frequently). Think Suggestion, Hold Person et al. Since the spell list would be heavily restricted, you might even be able to play around with some of the spell levels to open up access at lower caster levels.

This class should have loads of skill points. More, you might consider throwing some free Skill Focus feats in the progression too, to power the investigative portion of the class even more potently. Alternately, maybe a class-based bonus to Search, Gather Info, and Spot/Listen could net the same effect.

And above all else, make sure that this class gives as class skills everything you need to get into Justicair!

Very interesting. It'd be fun to make a Captain Sam Vimes.
JulesCARV
02-22-07, 08:57 PM It's true that all societies, evil and good, need law-enforcers, and law-enforcers might be of any alignment (usually lawful, but not necessarily).

Similarly, it's true that all societies need soldiers, evil and good.

However, evil soldiers are mostly warriors, with some fighters, rangers, barbarians, etc. Paladins are exclusively LG (although there are "of slaughter," "of tyranny," and "of freedom" variants).

Similarly, most law-enforcers are commoners, experts, and warriors, with some urban rangers, rogues, etc.

Constables aren't supposed to be typical law-enforcement officers, in the same sense that paladins aren't supposed to be typical soldiers.

Hold person, suggestion, and the like do sound like good ideas.

"Bring 'em back alive" sounds good -- it might get an enhanced version that replaces "smite evil."

They definitely get 8 + int skill points per level, as per rogue, along with all other rogue features except sneak attack (i.e., they get trapfinding, evasion, (improved) uncanny dodge, and special abilities).
Dave1001
02-22-07, 09:45 PM You might want to consider meshing it with a little bit of ranger as well. For instance, can a Constable track down the criminal? Can they follow the hoofprints out of town and down towards the river?

Generally, 8+ Int points is seen as the sole purview of the rogue. As such, I'd recommend 6+ points. To compensate for the reduced points (from a rogue's viewpoint) and yet to represent the better fighting capabilities (from a paladin viewpoint) I'd recommend a d8 HD. Better than a rogue, worse than a paladin. By the same token the skill points would still be better than a paladin's 2+, and there'd still be plenty for spreading around.

Some paladin features just don't make a whole lot of sense, thematically speaking. For instance divine health. Why would a Constable be immune to diseases? And turn undead? Yeah, I sorta see it being feasible, but again doesn't seem to fit the flavor.

In fact, now that I think about it, I think the Constable might be better a mix of fighter and rogue (lore-wise). This is a guy who's a better fighter than your thief-type, yet has the skill to track down the guy, to investigate crimes, to work the 'beat'. Spells would still be good, but more appropriate to a tracker-role, or utility spells like 'zone of truth' and such. Abilities like detect lies or detect alignment would probably be better than detect evil, since evil people aren't the only ones who break the law.

And also, I think LN should be a viable alignment. After all, how often would a Constable care more about holding up the law than whether that law is right or wrong?
JulesCARV
02-23-07, 12:24 PM Hmm... I think I found a plausible replacement for the Paladin's mount in Dungeonscape: the Divine Spirit (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a) alternative to the mount.
JulesCARV
02-23-07, 04:57 PM Alright: here's a draft

Hit Die: d6
Skill points per level: 8 + int
Class skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local/nobility and royalty/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special Spells/Day
1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Aura of good, Detect evil, Smite 1/day, Trapfinding 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Divine grace, Evasion, Lay on Hands, Trap Sense +1
3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4 +3 +1 +4 +1 Turn Undead, Uncanny Dodge 0
5 +3 +1 +4 +1 Spirit of Healing, Smite 2/day 0
6 +4 +2 +5 +2 Remove Disease 1/week, Trap Sense +2 1
7 +5 +2 +5 +2 1
8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 1 0
9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Remove Disease 2/week, Trap Sense +3 1 0
10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Special Ability, Subduing smite 3/day 1 1
11 +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Spirit of Combat 1 1 0
12 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Remove Disease 3/week, Trap Sense +4 1 1 1
13 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Special Ability 1 1 1
14 +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 2 1 1 0
15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Remove Disease 4/week, Smite 4/day, Trap Sense +5 2 1 1 1
16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Special Ability, Spirit of Heroism 2 2 1 1
17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 2 2 2 1
18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Remove Disease 5/week, Trap Sense +6 3 2 2 1
19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Special Ability 3 3 3 2
20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Spirit of the Fallen, Smite 5/day 3 3 3 3

Weapon and armor proficiencies: Simple weapons, plus the net, sap, bolas, truncheon, short sword, and shortbow.

Smite: This can be used against all targets, not just evil ones, but causes the attack to do subdual damage, in addition to adding level in subdual damage and charisma to the roll.
JulesCARV
03-05-07, 12:54 AM Oh, and they get proficiency with light armor.

Proposed spell list modifications:

Lose:
1. Bless
2. Bull's Strength
3. Heal Mount

Gain:
1. Bane
2. Cat's Grace
3. Bestow Curse
DrakaraGM
03-05-07, 03:09 AM You should change the name of Smite to Smack. So you can lay the smack-down on your target... :cool: Plus that shows it to be different than the Smite ability gained by such classes as Cleric (with Destruction domain), Pious Templar (per Complete Divine), etc. Unless you want the class to be able to do things like use Pious Templar levels to get extra Smites, which is what happens if they are added to a character who already has a Smite ability...

Note by the way that as the attack does subdual damage, while it can be used against a wider variety of targets, it also has some that it can no longer effect -- primarily undead. Now, many undead are obviously that, and the constable can defend the citizens against them by laying on hands to damage them, or by turning them -- he just cannot smite (smack) them.

It seems like Urban Tracking (from UA) ought to be practically required for a constable -- i.e. the ability to follow a subject around town using Gather Info or however it works. But that can be taken as a standard feat I presume, and I suppose you could have constables who were more hostage negotiators or special undercover guys rather than surveillance experts.
JulesCARV
03-06-07, 02:54 PM Are there serious problems you see with constables going into classes like pious templar? That never occured to me, but when you mention it, I don't really see a problem with it. If you see potential abuses, though, it could easily be changed to smack (or possibly something more dignified, like "knockout.")

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-22-07, 03:32 PM	"Look: I can't force you to turn yourself in, Gremek, because that was an agreement for this meeting. I can tell you this, though: I know that you know that the Syndicate will have you dead in a week if you aren't in our custody. I know that you know that you have nowhere to run. My original offer was generous enough, but it's futile to try to hold out for a better deal when we both know that you have to accept it anyway." The goblin scowled and stood up, and seemed on the verge of storming out of the smoky bar in rage. The constable retained his calm, steady gaze, while sipping from his mug of ale. Gremek calmed a bit as his bluff was called. "Before I turn myself in, I need to know more about how you're going to protect my daughters from the Syndicate." "We'll help protect them, and we already have officers ready to contact them, although exactly what they do, from a permanent polymorphed alternate identity to moving to another city, will be up to them. Let's go over some possibilities..." Here's the logic behind this class: 1. Per UA, fighters can trade bonus feats for sneak attack, and rogues can trade sneak attack for bonus feats. 2.As such, +1d6 sneak attack every odd level approximately worth one fighter bonus feat every even level and one at first level, if UA is somewhat balanced. 3. Per the PHB, paladins are basically fighters with paladin features (smite, detect, spellcasting, etc) rather than bonus feats (also, no tower shield proficiency, but that doesn't matter too much). 4. As such, a bonus feat every even level and one at 1st level is balanced against the supernatural features of paladins, if the PHB is somewhat balnced. The idea behind the Constable? Take a rogue. Get rid of the Sneak Attack, which is worth about 11 feats. Add paladin features like Detect Evil, Divine Grace, and the like, along with an LG alignment restriction and a code of conduct (the code of conduct might be modified a bit, to make it a bit less "chivalrous knight" and a bit more "good cop."), which are also worth about 11 feats. Some paladin features go well here: detect evil, lay on hands, divine grace, divine health, aura of courage, turn undead and such are all fine. Spellcasting is likewise fine (although maybe a few spells might be swapped -- for instance "bless" might be replaced with "bane" and "greater magic weapon" might be replaced with "bestow curse," since constables are more likely to be interested in making bad guys less effective than making their allies more effective, since an overall "lower-intensity" battle is less likely to lead to the deaths of potentially valuable suspects or harm to third party bystanders). A few sticking points: -the paladin's mount -- Sure, there are mounted police and all that, but it just doesn't seem as likely to be useful as for a normal paladin. "Charging smite" seems like it won't fit much better. -Smite evil -- might be less likely to go with a lightly-armored combat style which involves a lot of hiding, moving silently, etc. Anyway, any idea on how to finesse these two features which don't play well with a low-HD, 3/4 BAB, lightly armored, highly skilled class?
Infinitive 02-22-07, 05:18 PM	A couple of points of consideration, though I DO love your idea. Maybe open up Constable for any Lawful alignment? Justice is theoretically supposed to be blind (neutral). More, even LE societies need individuals to enforce the law. I like the idea of a "detect alignment" sort of spell-like ability, one that functions much as the Paladin Detect Evil one. Admittedly, Detect Chaos might be the better specific version. Here's a couple of ideas if you're really shooting for the "Constable" concept as something distinct from paladins: A class feature that functions like "Bring 'em Back Alive", from the Justicair PrC. If any spell list is associated with this class, it should include almost exclusively spells that put nonlethal debuffs on your targets (and are not castable very frequently). Think Suggestion, Hold Person et al. Since the spell list would be heavily restricted, you might even be able to play around with some of the spell levels to open up access at lower caster levels. This class should have loads of skill points. More, you might consider throwing some free Skill Focus feats in the progression too, to power the investigative portion of the class even more potently. Alternately, maybe a class-based bonus to Search, Gather Info, and Spot/Listen could net the same effect. And above all else, make sure that this class gives as class skills everything you need to get into Justicair! Very interesting. It'd be fun to make a Captain Sam Vimes.
JulesCARV 02-22-07, 08:57 PM	It's true that all societies, evil and good, need law-enforcers, and law-enforcers might be of any alignment (usually lawful, but not necessarily). Similarly, it's true that all societies need soldiers, evil and good. However, evil soldiers are mostly warriors, with some fighters, rangers, barbarians, etc. Paladins are exclusively LG (although there are "of slaughter," "of tyranny," and "of freedom" variants). Similarly, most law-enforcers are commoners, experts, and warriors, with some urban rangers, rogues, etc. Constables aren't supposed to be typical law-enforcement officers, in the same sense that paladins aren't supposed to be typical soldiers. Hold person, suggestion, and the like do sound like good ideas. "Bring 'em back alive" sounds good -- it might get an enhanced version that replaces "smite evil." They definitely get 8 + int skill points per level, as per rogue, along with all other rogue features except sneak attack (i.e., they get trapfinding, evasion, (improved) uncanny dodge, and special abilities).
Dave1001 02-22-07, 09:45 PM	You might want to consider meshing it with a little bit of ranger as well. For instance, can a Constable track down the criminal? Can they follow the hoofprints out of town and down towards the river? Generally, 8+ Int points is seen as the sole purview of the rogue. As such, I'd recommend 6+ points. To compensate for the reduced points (from a rogue's viewpoint) and yet to represent the better fighting capabilities (from a paladin viewpoint) I'd recommend a d8 HD. Better than a rogue, worse than a paladin. By the same token the skill points would still be better than a paladin's 2+, and there'd still be plenty for spreading around. Some paladin features just don't make a whole lot of sense, thematically speaking. For instance divine health. Why would a Constable be immune to diseases? And turn undead? Yeah, I sorta see it being feasible, but again doesn't seem to fit the flavor. In fact, now that I think about it, I think the Constable might be better a mix of fighter and rogue (lore-wise). This is a guy who's a better fighter than your thief-type, yet has the skill to track down the guy, to investigate crimes, to work the 'beat'. Spells would still be good, but more appropriate to a tracker-role, or utility spells like 'zone of truth' and such. Abilities like detect lies or detect alignment would probably be better than detect evil, since evil people aren't the only ones who break the law. And also, I think LN should be a viable alignment. After all, how often would a Constable care more about holding up the law than whether that law is right or wrong?
JulesCARV 02-23-07, 12:24 PM	Hmm... I think I found a plausible replacement for the Paladin's mount in Dungeonscape: the Divine Spirit (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a) alternative to the mount.
JulesCARV 02-23-07, 04:57 PM	Alright: here's a draft Hit Die: d6 Skill points per level: 8 + int Class skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local/nobility and royalty/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special Spells/Day 1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Aura of good, Detect evil, Smite 1/day, Trapfinding 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Divine grace, Evasion, Lay on Hands, Trap Sense +1 3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Aura of Courage, Divine Health 4 +3 +1 +4 +1 Turn Undead, Uncanny Dodge 0 5 +3 +1 +4 +1 Spirit of Healing, Smite 2/day 0 6 +4 +2 +5 +2 Remove Disease 1/week, Trap Sense +2 1 7 +5 +2 +5 +2 1 8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge 1 0 9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Remove Disease 2/week, Trap Sense +3 1 0 10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Special Ability, Subduing smite 3/day 1 1 11 +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Spirit of Combat 1 1 0 12 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Remove Disease 3/week, Trap Sense +4 1 1 1 13 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Special Ability 1 1 1 14 +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 2 1 1 0 15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Remove Disease 4/week, Smite 4/day, Trap Sense +5 2 1 1 1 16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Special Ability, Spirit of Heroism 2 2 1 1 17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 2 2 2 1 18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Remove Disease 5/week, Trap Sense +6 3 2 2 1 19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Special Ability 3 3 3 2 20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Spirit of the Fallen, Smite 5/day 3 3 3 3 Weapon and armor proficiencies: Simple weapons, plus the net, sap, bolas, truncheon, short sword, and shortbow. Smite: This can be used against all targets, not just evil ones, but causes the attack to do subdual damage, in addition to adding level in subdual damage and charisma to the roll.
JulesCARV 03-05-07, 12:54 AM	Oh, and they get proficiency with light armor. Proposed spell list modifications: Lose: 1. Bless 2. Bull's Strength 3. Heal Mount Gain: 1. Bane 2. Cat's Grace 3. Bestow Curse
DrakaraGM 03-05-07, 03:09 AM	You should change the name of Smite to Smack. So you can lay the smack-down on your target... :cool: Plus that shows it to be different than the Smite ability gained by such classes as Cleric (with Destruction domain), Pious Templar (per Complete Divine), etc. Unless you want the class to be able to do things like use Pious Templar levels to get extra Smites, which is what happens if they are added to a character who already has a Smite ability... Note by the way that as the attack does subdual damage, while it can be used against a wider variety of targets, it also has some that it can no longer effect -- primarily undead. Now, many undead are obviously that, and the constable can defend the citizens against them by laying on hands to damage them, or by turning them -- he just cannot smite (smack) them. It seems like Urban Tracking (from UA) ought to be practically required for a constable -- i.e. the ability to follow a subject around town using Gather Info or however it works. But that can be taken as a standard feat I presume, and I suppose you could have constables who were more hostage negotiators or special undercover guys rather than surveillance experts.
JulesCARV 03-06-07, 02:54 PM	Are there serious problems you see with constables going into classes like pious templar? That never occured to me, but when you mention it, I don't really see a problem with it. If you see potential abuses, though, it could easily be changed to smack (or possibly something more dignified, like "knockout.")