Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kurald_Galain 12-15-07, 04:43 PM	The Samurai from the Complete Warrior is one of the most-maligned classes ever. However, this poor reputation is clearly unjustified, as a number of threads on the Wizards forum point out. With a bit of work, a Samurai build can be as strong as a Fighter or Monk, which are the strongest core classes by far. I'm not going into the warrior vs. caster debate here, but it has been repeatedly shown that Fighters and Monks can easily defeat any caster of equal level. And with the suggestions below, your Samurai can out-damage the party rogue without raising a sweat. The most important class feature is that a Samurai gets a katana and wakazashi. Aside from having cool names, these weapons are always masterwork. This means that you can have your weaponry enchanted from the beginning; even as early as level two you can have a flaming burst weapon. The other classes either have to pay a lot of money for masterwork weapons (money which you can spend on better items), or have to hope that the DM will give them, as lair treasure, a masterwork version of the singular kind of weapon they specialize in. The latter is possible with the random treasure tables, but unlikely unless the DM is deliberately house ruling to help the other classes. Skill points are easy for a Samurai. As a noble, he already shines in social encounters; also, it's very flavorful to max out the legendary samurai stealth skills, which let you go unseen until you flip out and kill people. Before doing that, it is good to start with Forgery, because many DMs will enjoy giving fake documents to your character, and this lets you tell the difference. Furthermore, if you invest a bit in Open Lock and Disable Device, you can substitute for the party rogue in a pinch. This is especially useful in good parties, because sneak attacking is evil and a good rogue won't be able to use it much. Now the rogue player can play a more effective character instead, such as another Samurai. Any good build has to pay attention to ability scores. Now a Samurai works best with 45-point buy (although it is also possible to make one with less). With the standard dice rolling ability generation, statistics show you'll generally come up with something close enough to that. A common beginner's mistake is to put a lot of points in strength. You don't actually need strength, because in any significant battle you're going to be polymorphed into something stronger anyway. Even when you're not, the katana already deals so much more damage than, say, a dagger, that taking a -1 to damage isn't that big a deal. You won't need much constitution either, since you already have good hit dice and a good fortitude save. No, the most important ability scores for a Samurai are Intelligence, which lets you max out several important skills as well as learn much-needed languages, and Wisdom, which lets you Arcane Disciple. Once you get 19 wis, and use that feat to take the Luck domain, you have access to Miracle, the most powerful spell in the game. This is a fine example of how casters and non-casters are balanced; and remember that the non-casters can actually fight in addition to using Miracles. Now remember that the casters in your party, particularly the wizard, aren't there to torch the enemies with magic. Everybody on the boards these days knows that blasting spells do much less damage than a melee attack. Obviously, negative status effect spells are even worse, since a blast spell can kill things, and a debuff can't. No, the casters are there to provide buffs for your Samurai character. From True Strike to Righteous Might, all spellcasting classes have good spells that make your already strong Samurai even better. After all, the characters are a team and should work together. Remind the other players that they aren't just playing for themselves; there is no I in "dungeon". As we all know, a cornerstone of D&D is paying NPCs to assist you. You don't need Leadership (there are much better feats out there); simply pay a few NPCs to follow you around, and buff and heal you when necessary. You can even get them to cook dinner for you, how is that not stylish? Particularly at low level you will want to pay a wizard to cast Polymorph on you during most battles, at least until your UMD skill is high enough to do it yourself. Spells are cheap on the Goods and Services table, so this will easily fit within your wealth-by-level. If you run out, you can always seduce your DM, which will give you more money; seduction is part of the delicate game balance that makes D&D such a great game. Finally, there are a number of strong prestige classes available for the Samurai. This isn't needed, because Sam/20 is plenty strong on its own, but you may want to look into this for flavor and variety. One of the funniest is the Chameleon, which gives you access to spellcasting, so you can become an archmage in addition to having a sword. If you spend a feat on the ability to quickly don or remove your armor, you can even use both blades and spells in a single combat, which no other build can do effectively. So you see, while it is easy to forget important parts of D&D in house ruling, if you play the game properly balanced, the Samurai is one of the greatest classes out there, and it fits easily into every setting. I hope I've inspired many people to take a Samurai as their next character!
Kurald_Galain 12-15-07, 04:45 PM	For those of you wondering why I'm posting this... there has been a variety of threads on a different RPG-related forum, where some people allege that e.g. a high-level fighter was equal in power to a high-level druid, because fighters can use UMD to polymorph, and because a druid's magic has many (though unspecified) weaknesses. The arguments got slightly more ridiculous than that, even. Hence this bit of parody.
Jaxgaret 12-15-07, 04:59 PM	I saw this over on the OotS boards earlier today. All I can say is: http://www.oxygeneve.ch/images/win-win.gif
Treantmonklvl20 12-15-07, 05:10 PM	THANK YOU I've gotten so tired with the Samuri being slammed on these boards. "The Samuri is just a fighter where they've picked crappy feats for you" is all I hear. No point in showing how you can pick EVEN WORSE feats for a fighter if you plan properly. The Samuri class saves you from those kind of mistakes. Oh yeah? I say, which I've always figured is a pretty solid rebuke - but this thread is even more solid. I dunno if I would say a Samuri could be built as tough as a Monk though. It's hard to beat no armor, no weapons and a medium BAB worsened through flurry of blows...
vorpo 12-15-07, 06:00 PM	... can be as strong as a Fighter or Monk, which are the strongest core classes by far. What?!?! Fighter and monks being the strongest classes?!?! Where did CoDzilla go....?!?!
bahamut920 12-15-07, 06:10 PM	D00d, didn't you know? Monks can punch spellcasters so hard, it makes them forget their spells!
turalisj 12-15-07, 06:23 PM	And fighters have... SWORDCHUCKS!
The_Shaman 12-15-07, 08:15 PM	While I generally believe that every class - including the CW samurai, although maybe except the CPsi Divine Mind - has its niche of expertise, there are quite a few elements in your post I don't agree to, Kurald. I'll go through it. In short, Kurald, I believe that you are either making a very good parody of some standard and not-so-standard misstatements or are, I put this very mildly, incredibly mistaken. Either way, this was a rather enjoyable post. In case you actually believed in what you said, read the spoiler block. The Samurai from the Complete Warrior is one of the most-maligned classes ever. However, this poor reputation is clearly unjustified, as a number of threads on the Wizards forum point out. With a bit of work, a Samurai build can be as strong as a Fighter or Monk, which are the strongest core classes by far. I'm not going into the warrior vs. caster debate here, but it has been repeatedly shown that Fighters and Monks can easily defeat any caster of equal level. And with the suggestions below, your Samurai can out-damage the party rogue without raising a sweat. I will, for the moment, accept that a samurai build, which need not be limited the samurai class - just as many ranger, swashbuckler or rogue builds contain multiclassing - can match a fighter or monk. I will, momentarily, not argue whether fighter or monk are the best melee classes in core. However, I take offense by the claim that they are the strongest core classes period, much less by far. Fighters or monks defeating any caster of equal level past lvl 5 has not been repeatedly shown, and I have yet to see it proven once - at least if the casters were not out of spells. Thus, your original premise is flawed: though a samurai build may (theoretically) match a monk or fighter one, the rest of your claims are rather spurious. The part about outdamaging the rogue, even if true (and optimized rogues are hard to match if they can get their sneak attack in) is irrelevant: the rogue is a skill-based character, not a combat one. The most important class feature is that a Samurai gets a katana and wakazashi. Aside from having cool names, these weapons are always masterwork. This means that you can have your weaponry enchanted from the beginning; even as early as level two you can have a flaming burst weapon. The other classes either have to pay a lot of money for masterwork weapons (money which you can spend on better items), or have to hope that the DM will give them, as lair treasure, a masterwork version of the singular kind of weapon they specialize in. The latter is possible with the random treasure tables, but unlikely unless the DM is deliberately house ruling to help the other classes. I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. You begin the game proficient with the bastard sword/katana, not necessarily owning one. Nowhere in the CW it says that a 1st level samurai is given the two masterwork weapons. Read page 9 and 10 carefully, and note the human samurai starting package - note that the weapons included in it are non-masterwork. For comparison, the OA samurai class specifically says that samurai begin the game with their daisho - the CW one simply says they are proficient at it. Also, having your weapons enchanted is only possible if you have the money for it. Having a flaming burst bastard sword at lvl 1 is not going to happen if the party is using the same wealth-by-level guidelines as you are. Even if you had masterwork weapons, getting a +1 (necessary for other enhancement) and another +2 enhancement means you need 18.000* gp extra over what your buddies are getting. Skill points are easy for a Samurai. As a noble, he already shines in social encounters; also, it's very flavorful to max out the legendary samurai stealth skills, which let you go unseen until you flip out and kill people. Before doing that, it is good to start with Forgery, because many DMs will enjoy giving fake documents to your character, and this lets you tell the difference. Furthermore, if you invest a bit in Open Lock and Disable Device, you can substitute for the party rogue in a pinch. This is especially useful in good parties, because sneak attacking is evil and a good rogue won't be able to use it much. Now the rogue player can play a more effective character instead, such as another Samurai. Skill points, unfortunately, are rather a pain for the samurai: you simply don't have many. As you probably noticed, they get a number of skill points/level equal to 2+int modifier, same as the fighter. However, the samurai's reliance on charisma (for the fear abilities) means that intelligence is a lower priority for the samurai in a standard point-buy. At most, presuming a humongous 18 intelligence, you get 6 SP/level - enough to match a ranger. As someone who likes to play rangers, I can tell you one thing: 6 skill points/level is not much when you want to play a skilled character. As for the specific skills you mention, none of them - apart from the social ones - are on your class skills list, so you either pay double for them or take feats to add them to your class skill list. Neither is a very good option: you have neither skill points nor feats to burn. Also, the idea of a samurai with more than a few ranks in Forgery or Open Lock is rather antithetical to the concept of the class. I quote: "Known for their matchless bravery and strict code of honor, the samurai were the noble soldiers of feudal Japan. In a fantasy setting, the samurai brings that courage and honor to the service of a lord, general, or other leader." Sneaking around or forging documents are generally not examples of honorable and courageous behavior - although RL samurai might have engaged in both, but that's another story. Any good build has to pay attention to ability scores. Now a Samurai works best with 45-point buy (although it is also possible to make one with less). With the standard dice rolling ability generation, statistics show you'll generally come up with something close enough to that. A common beginner's mistake is to put a lot of points in strength. You don't actually need strength, because in any significant battle you're going to be polymorphed into something stronger anyway. Even when you're not, the katana already deals so much more damage than, say, a dagger, that taking a -1 to damage isn't that big a deal. You won't need much constitution either, since you already have good hit dice and a good fortitude save. No, the most important ability scores for a Samurai are Intelligence, which lets you max out several important skills as well as learn much-needed languages, and Wisdom, which lets you Arcane Disciple. Once you get 19 wis, and use that feat to take the Luck domain, you have access to Miracle, the most powerful spell in the game. This is a fine example of how casters and non-casters are balanced; and remember that the non-casters can actually fight in addition to using Miracles. I'll be blunt: that was pricelessly absurd. First, 45-point buys are practically non-existant: in my gaming experience the best I've seen online or at the table was 36 PB - and we usually started at 25 or 32. Second, the polymorph spell means you need a supporting character's resources. Constitution is important enough as a) no HD is too high when you're on the frontline and b) most fort-save spells are the kind you don't want to be affected by. Furthermore, the arcane disciple feat, as the name implies, requires you to be a spellcaster, as it says in the description. You will not even take the feat, much less use it, without being able to cast arcane spells. As for not needing strength for damage - when a barbarian can swing a greataxe for 1d12+20 damage, you should not be satisfied by doing 1d10+2 or 1d6+1. BTW, the barbarian can do that at lvl 8 only with 18 starting strengh and -5 power attack - and he'll hit more often than you. Now remember that the casters in your party, particularly the wizard, aren't there to torch the enemies with magic. Everybody on the boards these days knows that blasting spells do much less damage than a melee attack. Obviously, negative status effect spells are even worse, since a blast spell can kill things, and a debuff can't. No, the casters are there to provide buffs for your Samurai character. From True Strike to Righteous Might, all spellcasting classes have good spells that make your already strong Samurai even better. After all, the characters are a team and should work together. Remind the other players that they aren't just playing for themselves; there is no I in "dungeon". In theory, your argument is good. In practice, it's again absurd - if you expect everyone to buff you because you couldn't care to get a decent strength and constitution, then you're not doing your own job. Also, both spells you mention are personal-range only - meaning the casters can only do them at themselves. As we all know, a cornerstone of D&D is paying NPCs to assist you. You don't need Leadership (there are much better feats out there); simply pay a few NPCs to follow you around, and buff and heal you when necessary. You can even get them to cook dinner for you, how is that not stylish? Particularly at low level you will want to pay a wizard to cast Polymorph on you during most battles, at least until your UMD skill is high enough to do it yourself. Spells are cheap on the Goods and Services table, so this will easily fit within your wealth-by-level. If you run out, you can always seduce your DM, which will give you more money; seduction is part of the delicate game balance that makes D&D such a great game. Ah, so that's what happened: you seduced the DM and s/he threw the DMG out the window in a fit of passion. Congrats, dude (or girl): you must be hotter than open flame. Unfortunately, not all of us are as gifted as you, so we must play by the rules. Ahem: paying them, yes. Spells, btw, are not exactly cheap, but then again you must also pay the NPCs to accompany you, which also costs quite a bit. How much do you think it costs for a lvl 10 or so wizard to abandon his studies and waste time - and risk their life - in some god-forsaken dungeons? Quite a bit, let me tell you. Oh, and you need the same money for equipment and magic armaments, which tends to eat most of a fighter's money anyway. Of course, a fighter or a paladin can just as easily do all that you did, and more. As for there being much better feats than leadership, pardon me while I roll on the floor in helpless laughter.:rofl: - kinda like this. Ah, much better. Where was I? Finally, there are a number of strong prestige classes available for the Samurai. This isn't needed, because Sam/20 is plenty strong on its own, but you may want to look into this for flavor and variety. One of the funniest is the Chameleon, which gives you access to spellcasting, so you can become an archmage in addition to having a sword. If you spend a feat on the ability to quickly don or remove your armor, you can even use both blades and spells in a single combat, which no other build can do effectively. Err... oh boy. While a samurai with 18+ intelligence and able learner is a strange enough animal and can benefit from Chameleon, the bit about samurai 20 is rather surprising. Seriously, if you were pitted against a barbarian with the same resources, slightly less intelligence and notably more strength, I'd root for the barbarian So you see, while it is easy to forget important parts of D&D in house ruling, if you play the game properly balanced, the Samurai is one of the greatest classes out there, and it fits easily into every setting. I hope I've inspired many people to take a Samurai as their next character! If proper game balance includes you getting an untold thousands of GP more, forgetting the by-level guidelines for adventuring, ignoring the prerequisites of N feats and having a near-army at your beck and call, then I fear to imagine what such a properly balanced game can do for the wizard. As for fitting easily for every setting, how that follows from you saying what a great class the CWar samurai is mechanically is simply beyond me. *(see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm, the table to the right for the extra cost of magic weapons over their masterwork versions). In short, I presume that you were speaking only in jest and didn't mean more than 5% of what you wrote in the OP. Thank you for the amusement.
Kurald_Galain 12-16-07, 02:55 AM	In short, Kurald, I believe that you are either making a very good parody of some standard and not-so-standard misstatements or are, I put this very mildly, incredibly mistaken. Oh dear :D did you read my second post? Near the top, the one that is spoilered out?
KIDS 12-16-07, 07:50 AM	I know that I'm repeating myself, but: Kurald Galain, you are a legend. We are but meager insects in the face of your genius. That was so incredibly awesome that I'll be in a laughing fit for the rest of the day!!! Thanks for writing up that much awesomeness.
The_Shaman 12-16-07, 10:00 AM	Oh dear :D did you read my second post? Near the top, the one that is spoilered out? Note to self: mental capacities are not at their best around 2:20 am.