Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neochronic 12-30-06, 03:14 AM	My goal here was to replace the rage mechanic, add maneuvers, and allow as much other material as possible to still work. Also, I'm splitting the class off from the culture, so I renamed it and removed illiteracy. The Berserker Alignment: Any nonlawful. Hit Die: d12. Class Skills The berserker’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the berserker. Weapon and Armor Proficiency A berserker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Maneuvers: As the Warblade except as follows. Berserkers have access to the Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw styles. The berserker cannot use maneuvers except while raging. Maneuvers Readied: As the warblade. Recovery: While raging, if you hit with a melee attack on your turn that is not part of a strike, you can use a swift action to recover all your expended maneuvers. Stances Known: As the warblade. Unlike maneuvers, berserkers can use stances even when not raging. Fast Movement (Ex): A berserker’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the berserker’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Rage (Ex): Once per encounter, a berserker can fly into a rage. In a rage, a berserker temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Constitution and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the berserker’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a berserker cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A berserker may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the berserker loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level berserker, at which point this limitation no longer applies). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a berserker can do so only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a berserker retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a berserker already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Trap Sense (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a berserker gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise by +1 every three berserker levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a berserker can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the berserker by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has berserker levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a berserker gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the berserker takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three berserker levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, a berserker’s bonus to Constitution during his rage increases to +6 and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at -2. Indomitable Will (Ex): While in a rage, a berserker of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage. Tireless Rage (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a berserker no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his rage. Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, a berserker’s bonuses to Constitution during his rage increases to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at -2. Ex-Berserkers: A berserker who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a berserker. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). The Berserker Base Fort Ref Will Maneuvers Stances Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special Known Readied Known 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, rage 3 3 1 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge 4 3 1 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Trap sense +1 5 3 1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 - 5 4 2 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge 6 4 2 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Trap sense +2 6 4 2 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Damage reduction 1/— 7 4 2 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 - 7 4 2 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Trap sense +3 8 4 2 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Damage reduction 2/— 8 5 3 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Greater rage 9 5 3 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Trap sense +4 9 5 3 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Damage reduction 3/— 10 5 3 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Indomitable will 10 5 3 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Trap sense +5 11 6 3 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Damage reduction 4/— 11 6 4 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Tireless rage 12 6 4 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Trap sense +6 12 6 4 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Damage reduction 5/— 13 6 4 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Mighty rage 13 7 4 Comments and critique are welcome and appreciated. Next, I'll be going through other sources to find rage-related abilities and I'll list how they would be modified using this system. I'll post that once I finish it. Edits: (1) After checking other books I have, it looks like the only changes really needed would be to PrCs that give rage abilities. Extra Rage becomes a useless feat, but all the other feats I saw should be fine. Feats that can only be used while raging become better at low levels, but I don't see that as much of a problem. For PrCs that give extra uses of rage, I would give a maneuver and stance progression at the same rate as the Eternal Blade, but maneuvers gained through that class could only be used while raging. (2) Removed strength bonus at higher rage levels. (3) Added Iron Heart to available styles.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 12-30-06, 04:33 AM	You know, I like it. I don't know if I'm a judge for balance, but I do like it.
dolphin49 12-30-06, 03:29 PM	im not a judge on balance, but rage is a very powerful ability and when they get higer lv and rage is giving them plus 6 to strength and con you might be overdong it by making it once per encounter and giving them manuvers. i like the idea but rage once an encounter might be over doing it
Leo 12-30-06, 04:53 PM	If he can rage once in all encounters, then it's the same as having unlimited rages. At least, if the rage ends and it's enemies are still standing, that berseker surelly attacked someone much much stronger than him and was doomed anyway. And why are manouvers so popular? Suddenly it seems as EVERY melee class needs to have them.
Neochronic 12-30-06, 05:02 PM	Well, I actually changed the power of rage. Until you get greater rage, you don't get any strength bonus at all while raging. Even once you get greater rage, the bonus is only +4, not +6, and with mighty rage it's +6 instead of +8. By 11th level (when you get greater rage) a barbarian could rage 3/day already, which is almost 1/encounter if DM is running the recomended number of encounters. At 12th, that goes up to 4/day. As far as why maneuvers are so popular? It makes melee combat more interesting then just hit, hit, miss, hit, miss, next round.
theotherdraxen 12-30-06, 07:39 PM	And why are manouvers so popular? Suddenly it seems as EVERY melee class needs to have them. They're what keep the warriors on par with spellcaster. Well, to a degree: from what I've heard, the casters are still more powerful, esp. at high levels, but maneuvers mean that the warriors don't get forgotten at 18th level. Anyway, rage should, IMO, still be x/day. In fact, I'd advise reducing the number a little. I imagine the Berserker to be to the Barbarian what the Crusader is to the Paladin. Barbarians were good before (weak, yes, but still good), and they don't need everything they had before plus a full maneuver progression.
Neochronic 12-30-06, 09:55 PM	They don't have everything they had before. They have less strength. At lower levels (when the unlimited rages is most powerful) they don't get any boost to strength at all. Maybe I should leave the strength boost out even at higher levels? I do not want to limit them to x/day rages, especially since they can only use their maneuvers while raging. My primary point when making this change was to remove the x/day limit from rage entirely. I admit, when comparing the berserker to the warblade at higher levels, the berserker does look more powerful, except in long fights (where the berserker has only a limited duration of usefulness). Entirely removing the strength bonus should fix that problem, I'd think. Comments on that change? Or otherwise?
Siberys 12-30-06, 10:13 PM	I did something sorta like this, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763321) [/shameless plug]
Neochronic 12-30-06, 10:20 PM	I did something sorta like this, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763321) [/shameless plug] Barbarian Lose: Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Indomitable Will Gain: Warblade Initiator Progression Discoplines: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw Sort of like it in that you gave maneuvers to the barbarian. I was trying to replace the rage mechanic with maneuvers. We both had the goal of adding maneuvers, but we had different side goals (yours being to keep rage, mine being to replace it). If you want to keep the existing rage mechanic, your version seems pretty good. I just didn't want to. ;)
Siberys 12-31-06, 12:14 AM	Sort of like it in that you gave maneuvers to the barbarian. I was trying to replace the rage mechanic with maneuvers. We both had the goal of adding maneuvers, but we had different side goals (yours being to keep rage, mine being to replace it). If you want to keep the existing rage mechanic, your version seems pretty good. I just didn't want to. ;) Of course. Hence "sorta". Now that I see exactly what you've done, I like it, but I prefer mine. Plus, I just like shamelessly plugging my own material *tee-hee* :P
Neochronic 12-31-06, 04:08 PM	:bump: Comments and critique are much appreciated. :)
Magocrat 12-31-06, 05:01 PM	Seeing that you have helped me with your comment, I shall try to do so for you. Maybe you could treat the berserker's rage as a boost or a stance? That would certainly tie that into the theme of the Sublime Way, it makes the berserker's primary ability a maneuver of its own, and it justifies the once per encounter bit. Of course, you'd have to edit the Maneuvers Readied section. The recovery method seems to be a bit... I don't know. It might be a bit too much. For the rest, it looks quite nicely done, but you may want to do something about the dead levels at 4th and 8th level, because, at least in my opinion, the lack of dead levels is a wonderful design of the barbarian. By the way, where'd you get that table, it looks nicely made. :rolleyes: You need to delete two spaces behind the Maneuvers Readied section, tho'.
Nexis 12-31-06, 05:28 PM	Recovery: While raging, if you hit with a melee attack on your turn that is not part of a strike, you can use a swift action to recover all your expended maneuvers. Yeah, thats overpowered. I have no solution though :shifty:
Neochronic 12-31-06, 05:41 PM	Seeing that you have helped me with your comment, I shall try to do so for you. Maybe you could treat the berserker's rage as a boost or a stance? That would certainly tie that into the theme of the Sublime Way, it makes the berserker's primary ability a maneuver of its own, and it justifies the once per encounter bit. Of course, you'd have to edit the Maneuvers Readied section. As I mentioned above, I wanted to keep the rage working with as many other rage-related effects as I could. Also, I don't feel I need to "justify" the once per encounter ability. It already was limited to 1/encounter, all I did was remove the x/day limit that made no sense. For balance, I understand why it was there, but in-game, it was just silly. The recovery method seems to be a bit... I don't know. It might be a bit too much. For the rest, it looks quite nicely done, but you may want to do something about the dead levels at 4th and 8th level, because, at least in my opinion, the lack of dead levels is a wonderful design of the barbarian. 4th level isn't actually a dead level. You get an extra maneuver readied. Not sure what to do about 8th level though. OTOH, I don't think it'd be too much of a problem having one dead level. By the way, where'd you get that table, it looks nicely made. :rolleyes: You need to delete two spaces behind the Maneuvers Readied section, tho'. I got most of the table from d20srd.org, and I manually added the rest. As for the spaces, those are intentional. The effect was to have the word "Maneuvers" semi-centered over "Known" and "Readied". Yeah, thats overpowered. I have no solution though :shifty: Really? Compare it to the warblade's recovery. The difference is that the warblade uses the swift action before attacking, while the berserker uses it after he hits. The warblade has easier recovery then the berserker does, and can use it while no enemies are in range (which is something the berserker can't do).
Electricall 12-31-06, 09:08 PM	The rage per encounter mechanic just strikes me as being... Wrong. I mean, the limit to rages per day is also a thing about energy - the barb cannot fight forever, he runs out of steam after a few fights. At higher levels, he's more enduring, but still isn't all-powerful. The rage per encounter thing means he has infinite stamina really. It's just wrong. It's like, after a battle: Barb: "Damn I'm tired! That was a workout!" 1 hour later "Damn that was a workout! That was tiring!" 1 hour later "Damn, I'm tired!" And yet, he can just continue raging through every battle. It isn't very realistic. The per day limit really gives the barb flavor IMO. It makes him mortal, rather than an elemental force of anger (which he isn't), like some demon.
Neochronic 12-31-06, 09:26 PM	Well, if you want to represent that, it would work a lot better if the fatigue didn't wear off so fast, perhaps stacking with extended use. But having a hard limit on uses per day just doesn't make any sense to me. For example, a 1st level barbarian uses his rage early in the day. Most of the rest of the day is spent in social interaction, and the barbarian is resting most of the time. Late in the day, the barbarian gets into combat again, but because he used his rage early in the day, he can't use it again. Mechanic-wise, the berserker's unlimited rage works out as a limit on how long he can use maneuvers in any particular encounter, a boost to will and fort saves for the encounter, and some extra HP that go away at the end of the encounter. The only net boost is to his saves, and the ability to use maneuvers. Well, that's assuming I drop the strength bonus entirely, like I mentioned above. OTOH, that does seem like it might be needed to balance this berserker vs. the warblade.
Crashy75 12-31-06, 11:08 PM	Well, I liked the orig rage just fine. In fact i liked the first barbarian level as it was. I think 2nd level would be a great place to start the progression as well as a special (in place of UD) that gave a bonus to maneuver save DC's while raging. Personally, I don't like uncanny dodge for a berserker/barbarian. (btw I do prefer berserker to barbarian.) I see the berserker as a medieval scarface, vulnerable only to a miserable ****-a-roach stabbing/shooting him in the back. Scarface was killed by a sneak attack IMV.
Roland_of_the_Eld 01-04-07, 05:33 PM	I may be completely and utterly wrong, but I was under the impression that Barbarians couldn't use maneuvers, spells, powers, etc., while they rage.
Neochronic 01-04-07, 09:27 PM	Crashy75, if that's the case, this variant isn't for you. This is for people like me who don't like the existing rage mechanic. Roland_of_the_Eld, I belive the customer server answer was that they can, in fact, use maneuvers while raging. Nothing in the rage description says they can't, and using the berserker, obviously they can.
InkBlot 01-05-07, 04:08 PM	Maneuvers: As the Warblade except as follows. Berserkers have access to the Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw styles. The berserker cannot use maneuvers except while raging. Warblades have access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. Of these, Diamond Mind is the only one that truly doesn't work for a beserker (you can't use concentration while raging). White Raven can seem a bit odd too, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine a beserker war-chief leading his tribe into battle.
Neochronic 01-06-07, 02:57 AM	You have a point. I just checked through the Iron Heart maneuvers, and they fit well with the berserker. I was hesitant to add it because I didn't want to have too much overlap with the warblade, but it fits too well not to add it. Main post changed.
Golem011 01-06-07, 09:31 AM	Maybe make rage usable on some kind of fatigue meter? So, when the berserker enters rage... say... the amount of minutes he remains in it for add to a 'Fatigue Level', and once he gets to a certain level of fatigue, he can no longer rage until the Fatigue Level has dropped beyond the cutoff point. Perhaps fatigue points could regenerate at one every half hour of no battle, and sleeping increases them at twice the rate, etc.
Neochronic 01-06-07, 03:17 PM	While that'd be possible, it's a lot more work for both player and DM then a simple "once per encounter" mechanic. Also, it would balance the berserker on a per-hour scale, which would make it unique among classes, and would make it really suck for back-to-back encounters. As it is, the berserker is fatigued after a rage until he's doing nothing stressful, and isn't threatened, for 1 minute (by the definition of the end of an encouter in ToB). It's simple, and with the berserker you don't even have to keep track of usese/day. If you do want to balance it like you suggest, you might check the berserker in Iron Heroes (Malhavoc Press). It uses rage tokens and works somewhat like you suggest.