Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LoneFlame 03-09-08, 01:43 PM	Every now & then, I see people trying to remake the Bard. After looking over the class, it would appear that just a few simple adjustments will go a long way in making this class a more viable option for a player character. Change to a d8 Reason: The Bard takes hits like a sissy like the Rogue, but lacks any offensive abilities to justify fighting in the first place. By upping the hit dice some, the Bard then can actually have a chance at surviving in battle. Make Bardic Music an at will ability Reason: It's bad enough that you can't cast spells or do anything else that requires thinking while using this ability, this ability doesn't really do much in the first place, & it requires spending skills points to max yet another skill. Placing an arbitrary daily limit tips the scales far enough to make this ability not worth having. Remove the daily limit & it should be more likely to be used by people. EDIT: Scrap this one. Good idea for core, bad idea out of core. Add Trapfinding(the Rogue ability) to the class at level 2 Reason: I've never understood why original Jack of All Trades doesn't have the ability to disable traps like a Rogue. As a skillsy support character, it's only reasonable that the Bard be able to take out traps. The reason I put it as at 2nd level is because there is no sound reason for a DM to force you to find DC 20 traps at 1rst level. Add Heal as a 6th level spell Reason: The Bard lacks any significant healing magics & by the time he were to get this spell, the Cleric is regrowing limbs & bringing people back from the dead. Add Greater Shadow Conjuration as a 6th level spell, but change it to emulate 5th level or lower creation or summoning spells, rather than 6th level or lower Reason: I just think it would be nice to have and it wouldn't hurt anything for them to get it. Remove the alignment restriction Reason: There really isn't a good reason for the alignment restriction in the first place. It's not like this class is a holy warrior or a savage berserker
Cartigan 03-09-08, 02:25 PM	Change to a d8 Reason: The Bard takes hits like a sissy like the Rogue, but lacks any offensive abilities to justify fighting in the first place. By upping the hit dice some, the Bard then can actually have a chance at surviving in battle. Maybe that is your indication that the Bard isn't a front line fighter :rolleyes: Actually, I have no idea how you got that impression in the first place. Make Bardic Music an at will ability Reason: It's bad enough that you can't cast spells or do anything else that requires thinking while using this ability, this ability doesn't really do much in the first place, & it requires spending skills points to max yet another skill. Placing an arbitrary daily limit tips the scales far enough to make this ability not worth having. Remove the daily limit & it should be more likely to be used by people. Maybe I'm just missing all the posts about how terrible Bardic Music is... Add Trapfinding(the Rogue ability) to the class at level 2 Reason: I've never understood why original Jack of All Trades doesn't have the ability to disable traps like a Rogue. As a skillsy support character, it's only reasonable that the Bard be able to take out traps. The reason I put it as at 2nd level is because there is no sound reason for a DM to force you to find DC 20 traps at 1rst level. Because he isn't a Roguish character? (Per se) Add Heal as a 6th level spell Reason: The Bard lacks any significant healing magics & by the time he were to get this spell, the Cleric is regrowing limbs & bringing people back from the dead. The Bard is an arcane caster, a specific type of arcane caster... No other arcane casters get Heal. This is just getting silly. Remove the alignment restriction Reason: There really isn't a good reason for the alignment restriction in the first place. It's not like this class is a holy warrior or a savage berserker How many wandering minstrels give any more of a crap than a savage berserker?
Jaxgaret 03-09-08, 02:27 PM	Every now & then, I see people trying to remake the Bard. After looking over the class, it would appear that just a few simple adjustments will go a long way in making this class a more viable option for a player character. Okay, let's take a look! Change to a d8 Reason: The Bard takes hits like a sissy like the Rogue, but lacks any offensive abilities to justify fighting in the first place. By upping the hit dice some, the Bard then can actually have a chance at surviving in battle. I see no problem with this. I am actually in favor of giving the Rogue a d8 as well - and the Fighter a d12, and the Ranger a d10. I see no reason for a Druid to have more HP than a Bard. And the Battle Sorcerer gets a d8 as well. Make Bardic Music an at will ability Reason: It's bad enough that you can't cast spells or do anything else that requires thinking while using this ability, this ability doesn't really do much in the first place, & it requires spending skills points to max yet another skill. Placing an arbitrary daily limit tips the scales far enough to make this ability not worth having. Remove the daily limit & it should be more likely to be used by people. This... I would have to look a little deeper into all the ways to optimize Bardic Music (particularly ways to trade Bardic Music uses for other abilities), but this sounds a bit broken to me. Add Trapfinding(the Rogue ability) to the class at level 2 Reason: I've never understood why original Jack of All Trades doesn't have the ability to disable traps like a Rogue. As a skillsy support character, it's only reasonable that the Bard be able to take out traps. The reason I put it as at 2nd level is because there is no sound reason for a DM to force you to find DC 20 traps at 1rst level. Before the Beguiler/Artificer came out, I would have said that making a magical class with Trapfinding is stepping on the Rogue's toes. So this seems fine in any campaign that allows Beguilers or Artificers. Add Heal as a 6th level spell Reason: The Bard lacks any significant healing magics & by the time he were to get this spell, the Cleric is regrowing limbs & bringing people back from the dead. Sounds fine to me. They'll get Heal well after a Cleric gets it. Add Greater Shadow Conjuration as a 6th level spell, but change it to emulate 5th level or lower creation or summoning spells, rather than 6th level or lower Reason: I just think it would be nice to have and it wouldn't hurt anything for them to get it. I would create a new spell, perhaps called Bard's Shadow Conjuration, that does what you want this spell to do, to put on the Bard spell list, if you wanted to do so. Remove the alignment restriction Reason: There really isn't a good reason for the alignment restriction in the first place. It's not like this class is a holy warrior or a savage berserker I can see the reasoning for Bards having a non-Lawful restriction; their Bardic Knowledge ability is based on their having wandered far and wide, picking up tidbits of information from all corners of the world. That's not necessarily a non-Lawful activity, though (though it is more intrinsically Chaotic than Lawful), so removing the restriction should also be fine. All in all, I think that the Bard is fine as is, but your changes seem okay to me.
LoneFlame 03-09-08, 08:33 PM	The entire premise of this remake is that a few simple adjustments added together go a long way in fixing a class. The d8 hit dice is because Bard can't take hits worth anything and hasn't got any combat abilities that are worth anything(even with my remake), so it doesn't hurt them any if they have a better shot at surviving encounters. Trapfinding is so you can have someone in the party who can support the party more efficiently. Rogue should not have been the only core class to have Trapfinding and, after Rogue, Bard's the best candidate in the PHB for it. However, that doesn't mean give Bard Trapsense too. Just Trapfinding. Bardic Music is less than useful, but sometimes it's just fun to do. Given the mediocre effect of it & massive drawbacks, there is no real reason it should have a daily use limit. My change is simple & leaves it compatible with the current variants & other abilities(such as feats) that effect Bardic music. The Bard is an arcane caster, a specific type of arcane caster... No other arcane casters get Heal. This is just getting silly. No, the majority of Divine Casters just get 9th level spells, higher hit dice, & more useful class abilities. And that's just the Favored Soul. Don't get me started on Cleric or Druid.... Plus, I can get Heal with a Wizard & one feat(actually there's more than 1 feat to get the job done), so think about that for a minute. Also, think about exactly what it is that Bard's role is. It's a Support & Jack of All Trades guy, yet it's not that good at anything it's supposed to do. Hell, it's not even decent at anything it's supposed to do. Now, if Crusader can get Heal at lv 17, why shouldn't the support caster guy be allowed to get it at lv 16?
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 01:19 AM	The d8 hit dice is because Bard can't take hits worth anything and hasn't got any combat abilities that are worth anything(even with my remake), so it doesn't hurt them any if they have a better shot at surviving encounters. Bardic Music is less than useful, but sometimes it's just fun to do. Given the mediocre effect of it & massive drawbacks, there is no real reason it should have a daily use limit. My change is simple & leaves it compatible with the current variants & other abilities(such as feats) that effect Bardic music. I agree with everything else you say here, but these two I have to disagree with. Optimizing Inspire Courage can bring huge benefits to almost any party, and the bigger the party (or the more party members can add additional allies via spells or class features) the better. I don't really see what the "massive drawbacks" of Bardic Music are, either. A Standard action, or a Swift action with a feat, at the beginning of battle that lasts for 5 rounds, or 10 with another feat, that can provide massive benefit to the entire party? Sounds good to me. I think you are neglecting to think about all of the different ways that a Bard can trade Bardic Music uses for other features via feats. A Bard with infinite Bardic Music uses would be mighty indeed, starting a different song (or two) every round, and then switching to Bardic Music fueled abilities (for free!) as needed. This is somewhat equivalent to giving a Cleric unlimited Turn attempts - it can get broken easily.
WolfHati 03-10-08, 04:41 AM	I wold support the ability to have lawful bards. A great deal of music requires discipline as well as wild passion. Why should it be impossible for someone who approaches art as patterning and ordering succeed just as well as someone who sees it as Dionysian emotion? As for the wandering bit, biologists wander far and wide... to taxonomize, to collect, to order things. Seems pretty lawful focused to me. I've had plenty ideas for bards that are lawful. For example, a tribal lorekeeper versed in the oral traditions and music of his people, who takes his duties very seriously. And if there's even one good character concept that works with a given alignment, why bother having a restriction at all? Bards are not like paladins, who need to believe in benevolent justice to get their powers, nor monks who must believe in order and discipline, nor barbarians who need to have an element of wildness and fury. The restriction only makes sense insofar as it straight-jackets you into one "bard" stereotype. Also, I think bards need intimidate as a class skill. I mean an actor who can't even *act* intimidating? Gimme a break. Especially when you're bard is an orc with 22 strength, eheheh. I rolled up that character for an evil campaign and gave him full ranks in intimidate until someone pointed out that it was not in fact a class skill.
Cartigan 03-10-08, 09:10 AM	Also, think about exactly what it is that Bard's role is. It's a Support & Jack of All Trades guy, yet it's not that good at anything it's supposed to do. Hell, it's not even decent at anything it's supposed to do. You obviously have never heard the entire "jack of all trades" saying. And what he is good at what he does - Bardic Music and other Bard abilities.
LoneFlame 03-10-08, 03:20 PM	You obviously have never heard the entire "jack of all trades" saying. And what he is good at what he does - Bardic Music and other Bard abilities. Outside of Spells & Bardic Knowledge, what other Bardic abilities are there?
Cartigan 03-10-08, 03:23 PM	Let's just ignore the whole Bardic Music thing..
LoneFlame 03-10-08, 03:31 PM	Let's just ignore the whole Bardic Music thing.. Probably for the best. Besides, there's a feat that let's the Bard do all the things they normally couldn't do while using Bardic Music(such as casting spells or concentrating on things), so it doesn't really matter whether or not the ability is at will.
JulesCARV 03-10-08, 04:01 PM	Proposal -- instead of targets being immune to fascinate if distracted, in combat, etc, they receive a circumstance bonus to will saves vs. fascinate, up to +10 for trying to fascinate someone in combat. (possibly smaller circumstance bonuses for other, less distracting situations -- e.g., +2 circumstance bonus to will saves if dogs are barking in the distant background or something) That makes fascinate harder to use against someone in combat than in an optimal situation, but not completely impossible.
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 07:09 PM	Probably for the best. Besides, there's a feat that let's the Bard do all the things they normally couldn't do while using Bardic Music(such as casting spells or concentrating on things), so it doesn't really matter whether or not the ability is at will. Except that a Bard with unlimited BM uses can start up a new song (or two) every round as a Swift action or use BM-fueled abilities every round.
LoneFlame 03-10-08, 09:08 PM	Except that a Bard with unlimited BM uses can start up a new song (or two) every round as a Swift action or use BM-fueled abilities every round. Nothing stops who's set up for it from doing that regardless of whether or not the ability is at will. 1 use per level. That is the default. At first, it's not enough, & later it's more than you'll probably use anyway. I didn't think at will would be a problem, though, until I saw this one feat that actually gives the character a good use for their Bardic Music uses... To fuel spell-casting beyond their normal spells per day limit. Later, I found more that do useful things with Bardic Music. So, all of those feats would have to be thrown out, or they would benefit from limitless Bardic Music uses. Neither of those are good options, so it's easier to just drop the unlimited Bardic Music idea.
Jaxgaret 03-10-08, 11:41 PM	Nothing stops who's set up for it from doing that regardless of whether or not the ability is at will. Right, but they burn through them and are out of them without unlimited use. I didn't think at will would be a problem, though, until I saw this one feat that actually gives the character a good use for their Bardic Music uses... To fuel spell-casting beyond their normal spells per day limit. Later, I found more that do useful things with Bardic Music. So, all of those feats would have to be thrown out, or they would benefit from limitless Bardic Music uses. Neither of those are good options, so it's easier to just drop the unlimited Bardic Music idea. Glad you finally saw the light about what I was saying :)
LoneFlame 03-11-08, 12:02 AM	Bardic Music by itself doesn't do crap, but with the right feats is alright(kinda like Turn Undead). However, that does give me an interesting idea for the Bard... How generic & low thought does this sound: A Bonus Bardic music feat that you meet the requirements for at lvs 1, 5, 10, 15, & 20? If it's actually a good idea, let me know.
Nathreet 03-11-08, 12:13 AM	Any skillmonkey bard should take a 1 level dip in rogue. Bam, you get trapfinding. And search is a class skill, so now you can trapfind like any rogue. I don't think the O.P. significantly strengthens the bard. Just some minor additions that still leave him underpowered in battle, and merely decent out of battle. There are tons of ways to help him. But really, the main thing is that the core bard needs help somehow.
LoneFlame 03-13-08, 11:40 AM	With a good out of the box jack of all trades character, you shouldn't have to multi-class. Through some variant use, I can get 9th lv spells(divine casting), Trapfinding, Monk Speed, Monk AC, Rage, 2 good saves, mid-bab, a d8 hit dice, 4 + Int Mod Skill points(with an okay skill selection), and various other fun features. All of this with one class. I'm not asking for that much from Bard, but I do think it could use improvement. Unfortunately, all I've got for it so far are minor adjustments. The adding of bonus Bardic Music seems like a good idea, since Bardic Music is supposed to be the main focus, so I'll eventually find out how many(roughly) Bardic Music feats there are, what they do, and how many the Bard really should get. On a sidenote, how does 3 + 1/lv for daily uses of Bardic Music sound? It should cover the problem with not enough uses starting off, but without the problems of making it at-will
emeraldstreak 03-13-08, 12:22 PM	After looking over the class, it would appear that just a few simple adjustments will go a long way in making this class a more viable option for a player character. What is a "viable" option for a player character? How would you rank the Bard in terms of power balance compared to the other 10 core classes?
unundindur 03-13-08, 12:35 PM	What usually turns me off with the bard is first and foremost the bardic music ability. For me its more of a fluff-issue that I want to be able to do it all day long. To stop any combo-muching I would likely say something like: "A bard can use his bardic music ability at will, but can only have one bardic music effect active at any time. Bardic music applications overlap." Furthermore I would like to allow the bard to chose spells from the wizard/sorcerer spell lists in addition to his own. With those two changes I would be quite happy about the core bard. At least he would play nicely as a one-class bladesinger, which is the role people usually want to play him as in our games (but it never happes due to lack of certain spells and the non-cinematic sing 5/day). Thats just my two cent though.
OneWinged4ngel 03-13-08, 04:47 PM	Every now & then, I see people trying to remake the Bard. After looking over the class, it would appear that just a few simple adjustments will go a long way in making this class a more viable option for a player character. Bard is already a viable option, and indeed, can easily be one of the most powerful characters in the party. The bard suffers from design flaws, but it's not that they're "too weak." To quote from the CharOp boards "The old fashioned notion that the bard is weak has long since fallen out of style here." Add Trapfinding(the Rogue ability) to the class at level 2 Reason: I've never understood why original Jack of All Trades doesn't have the ability to disable traps like a Rogue. As a skillsy support character, it's only reasonable that the Bard be able to take out traps. The reason I put it as at 2nd level is because there is no sound reason for a DM to force you to find DC 20 traps at 1rst level. Can't bards already get this through a substitution level? I've always objected to trapfinding being class-access-restricted, myself. It shoehorns everyone who doesn't have it out of the role. Add Heal as a 6th level spell Reason: The Bard lacks any significant healing magics & by the time he were to get this spell, the Cleric is regrowing limbs & bringing people back from the dead. Add Greater Shadow Conjuration as a 6th level spell, but change it to emulate 5th level or lower creation or summoning spells, rather than 6th level or lower Reason: I just think it would be nice to have and it wouldn't hurt anything for them to get it. I think this isn't going far enough, really. I would redo the bardic spell progression entirely, and allow for more customization of focus as well as more appropriate balance between their choices (seriously, you have limited spells known, and there are some choices that are just plain stupid to pick in that context). Their healing progression is just plain ridiculous. Cure X just doesn't cut it, especially at the level they receive those spells. At the very LEAST, they should have Heal as you suggest. Remove the alignment restriction Reason: There really isn't a good reason for the alignment restriction in the first place. It's not like this class is a holy warrior or a savage berserker Obvious change. Alignment restrictions shouldn't exist for any class, except *maybe* the paladin (because the class concept is in fact based on holding to moral ideals). I can think of several good arguments for why even they shouldn't have a restriction.