Post/Author/DateTime	Post
plarfem 04-14-04, 04:11 PM	I've seen a lot of threads detailing why the fighter is underpowered, and, of course many responses that he isn't. I believe that the class is underpowered for a couple of reasons that I will mention, and I have a suggested fix. What I'm looking for is feedback to see if you think that my fix is viable. I have two major complaints about fighters, and I have seen others echo these statements. The first issue is that feats don't really scale with levels, and the second is that the fighter has a number of "empty" levels (levels where you don't get anything upon level-up). Generally, the fixes that I have seen involve making the fighter more specific by offering routes of specialization. I think this destroys some of the premise of the fighter class, which is to me, above all else, a master of Feats. My suggestion is to allow the fighter on certain levels (say 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th as an example, though this could easily change) to upgrade a feat (call it Feat Mastery, perhaps?). One way I have thought of to do this would be to allow the fighter to switch a feat he has with the Improved or Greater version of the feat (assuming he meets the requirements). A second way would be to allow the fighter to extend a feat he already has that applies to one weapon (like weapon focus) to an additional weapon. Of course, there may be other ways to do this as well, and if someone has any ideas they would be appreciated. I think this would help clear some of those empty levels out, and increase the scaleability of the fighter without overpowering it or narrowing its focus. What do you think?
Mirror, Mirror 04-14-04, 04:19 PM	I'm just not sure what the difference is between your solution and just giving the fighter more feats:confused: However, an idea that I discussed recently elsewhere was feats to allow the fighter to specialize in all simple and martial weapons. Perhaps even greater specialize in them too (just specialization, not focus...yet) This would be an addition to the current specialization chain, perhapse requiring specialization in 2 weapons as a prerequisite (costing 4 feats to get, approximately). Now, if you want to let the fighter automatically increase all the feats he knows to the improved version, then there may be some balance issues...
Lady Ishtar 04-14-04, 04:25 PM	as far as multiple WP focus/spec, try using weapon groups from UA, they make weapon specific feats much cooler the problem i see is in the epic levels, where fighter get nothing special (at least when compared to other classes) as far as epic feats go, since there are no epic verions of imp bullrush, etc.
Mirror, Mirror 04-14-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Lady Ishtar as far as multiple WP focus/spec, try using weapon groups from UA, they make weapon specific feats much cooler the problem i see is in the epic levels, where fighter get nothing special (at least when compared to other classes) as far as epic feats go, since there are no epic verions of imp bullrush, etc. Epic trip, bullrush, grapple? That would be really, really cool (I can trip the Megapede!)
Tony Vargas 04-14-04, 04:32 PM	I have to agree, to some extent, about the 'dead levels' - most other classes have had a lot of these removed, the fighter still has 9 of 'em. On the scaling issue, well, most feats scale in the sense that the fighter's BAB, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, and the like are going up as he levels (both from class abilities, and from stat increases and item accumulation) plus, of course, there's some synergy among feats that amounts to scaling. Still, I understand it's not nearly the same thing as the scaling effects of caster level. ;) So, while I don't find the fighter underpowered, I do think his abilities could be enhanced without making him overpowered. :rolleyes: If that makes any sense. One simple thing that wouldn't hurt: more feats. It fills in the dead levels, and it doesn't excessively overpower the class - more potent feats still have BAB requirements, and feat chains top out, so it would mainly add flexibility. It'd also address a problem that most people don't notice: as you add new feats to the game, you actually make life /harder/ on the fighters... why? Because, a PC fighter can only learn so many feats, but, the universe of potential foes he faces will have access to all of them. Thus, if there's a potent new feat introduced, the fighter may or may not choose it, and, if he does, he's passing on something else - but he could well face it in the hands of an enemy. The problem is much worse if new feats are introduced that also have new feats that 'counter' them. If you're adding a lot of non-core feats to your game (using CW, for instance), giving fighters additional bonus feats on 'dead level' (5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, & 19th, if you take into account feats for leveling) can be a good idea - not to beef up the fighter, so much as to help him hold his own. A simple feat-per-level might not be a bad idea, either. A really good idea that was floated earlier for a 'scaling' fighter ability was 'Combat Mastery (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206230&highlight=Combat+Mastery)' - the basic idea is to give fighters reduced penalties when using thier bonus feats, with the reduction improving as they level.
plarfem 04-14-04, 04:56 PM	What I was suggesting does indeed offer more net feats, however, by requiring that the feats be improved versions of previous feats, or something to that effect, it makes this not quite as powerful as just getting extra feats. In a sense, it would make the fighter's abilities from feats scale with his levels, instead of just giving him new feats where he can select new abilities.
Tony Vargas 04-14-04, 05:21 PM	Well maybe. Then again, it could slow a fighter's feat progression down. For instance, a fighter can easily have Great Cleave by 4th level - at least two levels earlier than any non-fighter. That's an advantage of the fighter. But, if the player knows he can upgrade his Cleave to Great Cleave at 7th, he has an incintive wait, and take something else at 4th - now he's actually getting great cleave at 7th, a level /after/ non-fighters may be picking it up.
Jell_Moo 04-14-04, 05:28 PM	I think that new feats introduced can be either a hindrance or a huge boon to the fighter. For example, someone is playing a 10th level fighter (hey, it could happen) when his DM allows Complete Warrior into the game. Well, that fighter has 10 levels without any CW stuff, some really nice stuff. While any NPC or enemy the DM introduces certainly could. In this case, new feats from CW don't do the fighter any real favors. However, if somebody is creating a brand new fighter and has access to CW from the start, then it's a huge benefit, as he now has a greater choice of feats to choose from. Why take Toughness when he can take Improved Toughnees? Powerwise, I think fighters are at the bottom end of the spectrum, but I wouldn't say underpowered. However, I do find all those empty levels somewhat disturbing. I have been toying with an idea though... Level 3: Weapon Focus in one weapon. Level 5: Weapon Specialization in that same weapon. Level 7: Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. Level 9: Greater Weapon Specialiazation with that weapon. Level 11: Weapon Focus with a 2nd weapon. Level 13: Weapon Specialization with that 2nd weapon. Level 15: Greater Weapon Focus with that 2nd weapon. Level 17: Greater Weapon Specialization with that 2nd weapon. Level 19: Weapon Mastery. Any threats with your two weapons of choice automatically crit. Anyhoo, just a thought.
Lady Ishtar 04-14-04, 05:54 PM	i like Jell_Moos idea, but perhaps instead of giving them offensive abilities give them some defensive abilities. just off the top of my head is defensive roll, or AC bonuses from armour.... lets say: armour specialization choose armour type (as in brast plate, full plate, etc.) to specialize in, at levels 6, 12, 18, etc. at each dead level your armour specialization increases by +1 you can use armour specialization to increase AC bonus, max DEX bonus, or deacease armour check penalty. the bonuses cant be more than doubled, and armour check penalty cant be reduced to less than -1. ex: 20th lvl fighter in full plate would have +9 specialization bonus, so he could have base AC bonus of +16 (+8 armour and +8 specialization), and +2 max DEX (+1 armour and +1 specialization) once you decide where the bonus applies for each specific armour type you cant change it, and all the bonus limits would be based on non-magical, non-masterwork arours made out of standard materials (as in if you have mithril full plate with base max DEX +3, you can only apply +1 from specialization, b/c thats the limit of basic steel full plate)
Daybreaker 04-14-04, 10:16 PM	I think that I would take the feats only available to Fighters -- Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization -- and just make them into class abilities. That's basically what they are now, they just have to pay for their class abilities in a way that other classes don't. Accordingly, Weapon Focus should be granted as a bonus feat. At 1st level, I guess. But does that make the Fighter even more front-loaded than it already is? I've noticed that a popular trend seems to be taking two levels of Fighter and then skipping out. This would exacerbate that. Huh.
Dave1001 04-14-04, 10:57 PM	My solution (among others) would be to have certain feats improve for the fighter as he advanced in fighter levels. Take Weapon Focus, for instance. It gives everyone a +1 bonus to hit with a particular weapon. But what if that bonus increased solely according to Fighter levels? Say, at every 5 levels? So it becomes +2 at 5th Fighter level, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th, +5 at 20th, etc. Or the same with the Dodge bonus? Or any of the other combat-modifier feats like Improved Trip, etc. That way there would be a reason to continue in the Fighter class past level 4, and dipping would be neutered for min/maxers, I mean Character Optimizers.
detectevil 04-15-04, 03:37 PM	My solution is a little harder to implement, but I would like to try it. Has everybody seen the Mastery Levels from Oriental Adventures? I think that was a cool idea. If you had a ceirtain combination of feats, you would gain some extra bonuses from them. The problem there was that those masteries were meant for monks, and a monk would never be able to collect those many feats. Now, the fighter doesn't have such problem. The sinergy between the feats could allow stuff like: Great Cleave + Spring Attack: The character is allowed to move before and after a cleave attempt, but no more than one 5ft step between each attack, and only up to half his normal speed. Dodge + Whirwind attack: The character can select all available targets to get full bonus from the Dodge feat when performing a whirwind attack. Combat Reflexes + Deflect Arrows: The character is allowed to deflect as many ranged attacks as he has attacks of opportunity. And so on... IMC, I also allow people to gain Abilities of prestigeclasses trough feats. Fighters enjoy this much more than any other class.