Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Threefists 01-20-08, 09:38 AM	Now, something that struck me was that, according to the ToB Manual, all the various Disciplines were once vicious rivals, correct? That would mean that, originally, you did not learn any of the other Disciplines because they were 'flawed' or 'weak, so on and so forth. But when the temple was sacked, what proof was there that the ToB, or Martial Adept, Classes we know today are the original classes? What of the original Martial Adept warriors? What would they have been like? So here is what I fondly call a 'devolution' of the Martial Adept classes. Restricted to a single Discipline but having unprecendented access to the manuevers and stances of that Discipline. A protector of the ancient lore of the Temple of Nine Swords, a devolution back towards the rivalry between the Disciplines, the ancient teachings in a corrupted state, held in statis over thousands of years but mis-interpreted by half-trained student who escaped the Shadow Tiger Horde or Masters whose pride blinded them to the truths Reshar had revealed to their predecessors. The Sword Zealot. Proficient with all Simple and Martial melee weapons (including those that can be thrown) and Light, Medium and Heavy Armor, Light and Heavy Shields. 4 skill points/Level. Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (History), Martial Lore, Move Silently, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim and Tumble. Level 1, BAB+1 Fort Save +2 Ref Save +0 Will Save +0 Discipline Focus, Narrow Focus, Scribe Martial Script Maneuvers Readied: 2 Level 2, BAB+2 Fort Save +3 Ref Save +0 Will Save +0 Maneuvers Readied: 2 Level 3, BAB+3 Fort Save +3 Ref Save +1 Will Save +1 Discipline Devotion Maneuvers Readied: 3 Level 4, BAB+4 Fort Save +4 Ref Save +1 Will Save +1 Maneuvers Readied: 3 Level 5, BAB+1 Fort Save +4 Ref Save +1 Will Save +1 Bonus Feat Maneuvers Readied: +3 Level 6, BAB+6/+1 Fort Save +5 Ref Save +2 Will Save +2 Hardened Warrior (Medium) Maneuvers Readied: +4 Level 7, BAB+7/+2 Fort Save +5 Ref Save +2 Will Save +2 Maneuvers Readied: +4 Level 8, BAB+8/+3 Fort Save +6 Ref Save +2 Will Save +2 Tactical Feat (Any ToB Tactical Feat) Maneuvers Readied: +4 Level 9, BAB+9/+4 Fort Save +6 Ref Save +3 Will Save +3 Improved Discipline Devotion Maneuvers Readied: +5 Level 10, BAB+10/+5 Fort Save +7 Ref Save +3 Will Save +3 Bonus Feat Maneuvers Readied: +5 Level 11, BAB+11/+6/+1 Fort Save +7 Ref Save +3 Will Save +3 Maneuvers Readied: +5 Level 12, BAB+12/+7/+2 Fort Save +8 Ref Save +4 Will Save +4 Hardened Warrior (Heavy) Maneuvers Readied: +6 Level 13, BAB+13/+8/+3 Fort Save +8 Ref Save +4 Will Save +4 Maneuvers Readied: +6 Level 14, BAB+14/+9/+4 Fort Save +9 Ref Save +4 Will Save +4 Maneuvers Readied: +6 Level 15, BAB+15/+10/+5 Fort Save +9 Ref Save +5 Will Save +5 Bonus Feat Maneuvers Readied: +7 Level 16, BAB+16/+11/+6/+1 Fort Save +10 Ref Save +5 Will Save +5 Greater Discipline Devotion Maneuvers Readied: +7 Level 17, BAB+17/+12/+7/+2 Fort Save +10 Ref Save +5 Will Save +5 Maneuvers Readied: +7 Level 18, BAB+18/+13/+8/+3 Fort Save +11 Ref Save +6 Will Save +6 Maneuvers Readied: +8 Level 19, BAB+19/+14/+9/+4 Fort Save +11 Ref Save +6 Will Save +6 Maneuvers Readied: +8 Level 20, BAB+20/+15/+10/+5 Fort Save +12 Ref Save +6 Will Save +6 Bonus Feat Maneuvers Readied: +8 (Narrow Focus): Whatever Discipline the Sword Zealot chooses to take, the choice is for life. For example, if a Sword Zealot was trained in the Devoted Spirit Discipline, the Sword Zealot may not use a Maneuver or Stance from any other Discipline, either learned from another Martial Adept class or via Feat, or from an outside source such as a magic item or martial Script. Using another Discipline Maneuver or Stance violates a Sword Zealot’s oath, and the Sword Zealot takes a permanent -1 Morale Penalty to attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks until the Sword Zealot can atone, usually through meditating, which expends 100XP x the level of the Maneuver or Stance x the Sword Zealot’s Martial Adept Level. Special: If a Sword Zealot multi-classes into another Martial Adept Class or PrC, the Sword Zealot’s Narrow Focus still applies, thus the Multi-Class Sword Zealot must take care not to choose any Stances or Maneuvers that would violate his strike code. (Discipline Focus): The Sword Zealot focuses with a zeal that rivals the most devoted Paladin on a single Discipline of the Sublime Way. Thus, while the Sword Zealot knows no other Maneuvers or Stances outside of the chosen Discipline, the Sword Zealot has supreme access to all Maneuvers and Stances of his chosen Discipline. A Sword Zealot is treated as knowing every Stance and Maneuver of his Discipline that a Martial Adept could normally use. Thus a Sword Zealot of 6th level could utilize any Maneuver or Stance of 3rd level or lower as a Readied Maneuver, but not a Maneuver or Stance of 4th or higher until another Sword Zealot level was chosen. (Scribe Martial Script): As per the Feat. (Manuevers): A Sword Zealot recovers Maneuvers in the exact same fashion that a Sword Sage does. (Disciple Devotion): At 3rd level, the Sword Zealot gains +1 bonus on damage rolls when utilizing a Maneuver or Stance of the chosen Discipline, and +2 bonus on checks involved with the Discipline’s key skill. The Save DCs for any maneuvers that the Sword Zealot performs increases by +1, if they have a Save DC. At 9th level, the bonus on damage rolls increases to +2, the bonus on the Discipline’s key skill increases to +4 and the Save DCs, if any, increase by +1. At level 16, the damage rolls increase by a further +1, the bonus on the Discipline’s key skill increases to +6 and the Save DCs, if any, increase by +1 again. These bonuses stack with the bonuses of the Weapon Focus Feat and Skill Focus Feat. (Bonus Feat): A Sword Zealot may choose Desert Fire, Adaptive Style, Devoted Bulwark, Ironheart Aura, Shadow Blade, Stone Power, White Raven Defense, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will or Great Fortitude as a bonus Feat. The Sword Zealot must still meet all prerequisites of the feats to take them. (Hardened Warrior): At level 6, the Sword Zealot has learned to be able to move at his full speed in Medium Armor. At level 12, this increases to include Heavy Armor. (Tactical Feat): A Sword Zealot may choose a Tactical Feat, not limited to the ones contained in the ToB Manual, so long as the Sword Zealot has met all prerequisites of the feat in question. When the Temple of Nine Swords was sacked, many Masters and luminaries fell to the monstrous hordes that sacked the Temple, and many precious tomes and manuals of the Nine Disciples were lost to the world. Some Masters escaped, and began training students to become Sword Sages, Warblades and Crusaders. Others were not so fortunate, and this is where the Sword Zealot comes from. Some are the pilfered secrets, handed down from the victors of that terrible day to their progeny or disciples, others the result of a student escaping and, without a Master to guide them, focusing upon the one Discipline they had learned to the exclusion of all others. Some Sword Zealots operate out of monasteries alongside their Martial Adept brethren, passing on the ‘pure’ lore that they have kept for generations, others treating the other types of Martial Adepts as the worst kind of heretics, for mingling the Nine Disciplines into a mis-matched school. Humans, Half-Orcs and Dwarves are the most common Sword Zealots, all three races admiring the staunch beliefs and martial strength of the class, while Elves rarely enter it, seeing the teachings of the Sword Zealot as too close-minded for their tastes. Gnomes, Half-Elves and Halflings rarely take up the Sword Zealot’s mantle, finding the freedom of choice amongst the other Martial Adept classes much more to their liking. Crusaders find Sword Zealots annoying, close-minded and stubborn, unless the Sword Zealot worships the same God or Pantheon as the Crusader, in which case the two are likely boon companions, while Sword Sages and Sword Zealots almost always clash over the Sword Sage’s reliance upon a wide range of Discipline Stances and Maneuvers, which often offends a Sword Zealots sense of propriety about mingling the Disciplines. Warblades generally don’t care about how the Sword Zealot feels about the Disciplines, so long as the Sword Zealot in question doesn’t steal the lime-light away from the Warblade. Now, things as they stand, it's a fairly basic class, not too flashy as befits a school of fighting based on mis-interpreted teachings that have been handed down over the years, but a few things I know are gonna crop up. Manuevers: As the Sword Zealot has access to all manuevers and stances of the chosen Discipline, that means that the Manuevers Readied means that's what the Sword Zealot chooses 4 or more Maneuvers as his readied maneuvers, but can meditate for 5 minutes and change the readied maneuvers if so desired for any others from the same Discipline. Stances: Again, the Sword Zealot trades the variety of the other Martial Adepts for complete control over a single Discipline. Thus, like manuevers, the Sword Zealot has access to every Stance of his chosen Discipline and may change to whatever stance he desires, so long as he is high enough level to utilize it and it appears on the Discipline Manuever/Stance list that he chose at 1st level.
Eldritch_Lord 01-20-08, 10:52 AM	Three things. First, I like it a lot, but you have too many dead levels towards the end. An ability at 18th level would be good. Second, you might want to replace its progression with this table to make it easier to read (just quote my post and copy everything inside the tags): Level BAB Fort Ref Will Readied Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 2 Discipline Focus, Narrow Focus, Scribe Martial Script 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 2 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 3 Discipline Devotion 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 3 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 3 Bonus Feat 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 4 Hardened Warrior (Medium) 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 4 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 4 Tactical Feat (Any ToB Tactical Feat) 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 5 Improved Discipline Devotion 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 5 Bonus Feat 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 5 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 6 Hardened Warrior (Heavy) 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 6 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 6 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 7 Bonus Feat 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 7 Greater Discipline Devotion 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 7 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 8 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 8 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 8 Bonus Feat Third, this is almost the exact same idea I had for my Master of One prestige class (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=904523); this class and my PrC go together perfectly. :D
navar100 01-20-08, 03:39 PM	I knew it! There's a computer chip in my brain, and you were hacking in. I was thinking of this very same idea just last night. :D
Eldritch_Lord 01-20-08, 04:41 PM	I knew it! There's a computer chip in my brain, and you were hacking in. I was thinking of this very same idea just last night. :D :ahem: You both stole it from me, given that I posted mine last August! ;) And by the way, it's not hacking a computer chip, it's a combination of detect thoughts and scrying and *modify memory* You saw nothing. :shifty:
Threefists 01-20-08, 06:17 PM	Argh, forgot to add Hide, Move Silently and Sense Motive to the Skill List. Apologies for the crappy lay-out, tried doing it with Windows Word and it doesn't translate so well into this forum, I guess. 18th ability....I thought it would have been a bit too powerful with another ability, but what ability we could give the Sword Zealot that would fit it's 'niche' confuses me still. And could we get a link or a repost on this thread, Eldritch_Lord? I never saw your creation, but I'd love to see it now!
Threefists 01-21-08, 09:05 AM	One of the reasons I made this Class so, well, bulkular was that by using the various Disciplines, the Player can make a PC of varying stereotypes without limiting speed, AC or health, although I also left out the Will/Int/Cha tie-in that the other ToB Martial Adept classes boast because the Sword Zealot is a regression, rather than evolution, of the Martial Adept. Like all the other Martial Adepts, the Sword Zealot can do more than just fight with the skill selection, but depending upon the Discipline selection, the character changes dramatically. Choose Desert Wind and become a fire-flinging sword-swinger, as capable of surviving a Red Dragon's breath without assistance as flying quickly across the burning desert sands. Choose Devoted Spirit and give the Paladin and Knight a run for their money. Bring the power of faith-imbued martial strikes to the battle and crush your enemies and bring hope to the downtrodden, or bring tyranny in your wake. Choose Diamond Mind and become the warrior who strikes with pure clarity, able to move far faster than all but the swiftest and be able to change the tide of battle quickly and without warning. Choose Iron Heart and stand toe-to-toe with the worst the Planes can offer, striking hard and true against even the toughest hide. Become the Warrior Supreme with this Discipline. Choose Setting Sun for a very strange character, heavily armored yet able to turn faster characters on their heads and reduce stronger foes to bumbling fools, or better yet, unwilling missiles. Choose Shadow Hand for a equally strange, albeit extraordinarily deadly combatant. Strike from the shadows, destroy the strength of your enemies and leave your enemies in fear of the armored warrior who'se most feared weapon is Shadow itself. Choose Stone Dragon and become as durable as stone, able to withstand nearly any strike and to deal considerable damage. Become a litteral fortress on the battlefield and crush all that come within your reach. Choose Tiger Claw and become as savage and wild as a beast, able to tear foes apart with little effort (or mercy) and tackle your enemies in ways no civilised warrior would dream of! A Sword Zealot who chooses this path is incredibly dangerous. Choose White Raven, and become a great general, leading by example and emboldening your troops to greater extremes of heroism or bloodlust. The Sword Zealot who takes the mantle of the White Raven would be wise to gather a great army unto his side as soon as possible.
Eldritch_Lord 01-21-08, 11:27 AM	Apologies for the crappy lay-out, tried doing it with Windows Word and it doesn't translate so well into this forum, I guess. Yeah, Word is a word processor while the forum format is a text editor; this means, among other things, that tabs and fancy tables don't work unless you do something tricky with the tags. 18th ability....I thought it would have been a bit too powerful with another ability, but what ability we could give the Sword Zealot that would fit it's 'niche' confuses me still. It doesn't have to be anything big, just something to say that getting the level means something more than additional BAB, HP, and saves. And could we get a link or a repost on this thread, Eldritch_Lord? I never saw your creation, but I'd love to see it now! The underlined "Master of One" in my first post is a link there.
Buccaneer 01-21-08, 01:09 PM	Maybe I just can't seem to see it, but whats the in-battle refresh mechanic for their maneuvers? Do they even get one?
bkdubs123 01-21-08, 02:03 PM	They have the same recovery mechanic as Swordsage. Actually, it doesn't say that but merely aludes to it. You might want to fix that, Threefists. Also, it needs a Capstone ability (something at level 20) in addition to needing an ability at 18. Notice how each martial adept has a relevant ability at 20th. Work with that.
Threefists 01-24-08, 07:58 AM	For level 18, I'm torn between giving the Sword Zealot some sort of bonus to saving throws, but that's coming in far too late for the benefit of most games, or perhaps the ability to do something crazy that's related to their Discipline, such as being able to perform 2 manuevers at once, ie two strikes, a strike and a counter, a boost and a counter etc. Capstone ability....hum.... Well, I've purposely left the class without any reliance upon a 'mental' ability score because the Class is supposed to be a Devolution, a corruption of Renshar's teachings. Perhaps the capstone ability could be a inherent non-magical +4 bonus to any of the Sword Zealot's physical ability scores? Sorry, brain is fried atm after yet another 58 hour week.....bleh.
Threefists 01-28-08, 08:54 AM	:bump: well, my first day off in over 11 months and still no fresh ideas. So please, if anyone has any opinions, I'd be grateful.
Tectorman 01-28-08, 11:15 AM	The Bonus Feats: a.) in the class ability description, please put in which levels these come at; b.) do you have all the feats that are discipline-specific? I don't have my ToB out, but I'm pretty sure there are at least two Desert Wind and Shadow Hand feats out there. I say this because if a Sword Zealot is only allowed to follow one discipline, then it follows that he'd only be allowed feats themed off that same discipline. As it stands, a Sword Zealot will only have a choice between Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Adaptive Style, and the feat themed for his discipline. The Tactical Feat: a.) same as above; b.) in the class table, it's ToB only; in the class abilities description, it's any. The usual rule is Text Trumps Table, but you should still clarify this. I'd also put it a bit later, just to allow more time to collect all the prerequisites. Discipline Devotion: Those bonuses would be stacking with Weapon Specialization, not Weapon Focus (you've got bonuses to damage, not to attack; it's a bit misleading). Hardened Warrior: These only affect base land speed, right? What about running in heavy armor? Is it still base land speed x3 (not counting the Run feat)? And what about Mountain Plate? There's some debate over whether a Knight ignores Mountain Plate or not, so you may want to address this. A Devoted Spirit Sword Zealot: He would know maneuvers and stances of all sides of the Alignment axis. Does this present a problem? Is he still allowed to be neutral (and which maneuvers would he be allowed to do, if neutral?)? Capstone: Swordsages get an ability towards Boosts, Warblades get one for Stances, Crusaders get Furious Counterstrike (which would be Strike-themed, though not necessarily Strikes). This leaves Counters, and depending on the discipline, the Sword Zealot might have a lot of Counters. So maybe give the Sword Zealot "Three times per day at 20th level, a Sword Zealot may initiate a Counter and not have it count as their swift action for their next turn. A Sword Zealot may only initiate one Counter in this fashion per round (but he is still allowed to take another immediate action for the same round, just not a Counter)."
ToastedAmphibian 01-28-08, 06:20 PM	If he is completly devoted to his school, why is he proficent with all weapons and armor? You could change the Weapon and Armor proficencies to simple weapons or no weapons, and light armor. Then add a first level ability that makes them proficent with all weapons of their chosen school, as well as the armors their school is likly to use (Desert wind and Shadow hand only get light, Iron heart gets heavy, ect.)
Threefists 02-02-08, 09:03 AM	Well, that's a interesting idea, Toasted, but at the same point it's a devolution of the arts, not a refinement of them. It's not a perfect fit for any of the Disciplines, a corruption of the teachings of the Nine Disciplines. While it certainly makes sense that a Sword Zealot of the Diamond Mind would naturally focus on using a Rapier and Light armor, it would also stand to reason that a Sword Zealot of the Stone Dragon would prefer a Heavy Pick and Battle Plate. For Example, a Sword Zealot who chose a style such as Shadow Hand would be unfairly penalised against a Sword Zealot who followed the Iron Heart Discipline. By ensuring each 'Sword Zealot' has access to the same armor and weapon proficiencies we keep parity between the Disciplines without crippling any of them, although I do like the idea of the Sword Zealot gaining proficiency with all simple weapons and the chosen weapons of their discipline. Imagine starting a Sword Zealot with access to the variety of nasty weaponry available to the Shadow Hand, or the extremely powerful 2-handed array of the Stone Dragon? Would, as you say, make the focus of their school much more apparent, but again, keeping their weapon/armor choices open means that all the various Sword Zealot Disciplines are relatively equal. Imagine being a Shadow Hand Sword Zealot bedecked in Adamantine Banded Mail with the Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves enchantments on it. A armoured shadow, quiet as a leaf falling and deadly as any assassin. Or a Diamond Mind Sword Zealot clad in Mithril Fullplate, as agile as any elf in her gleaming armor, catching foes by surprise as she moves with speed and grace in armor that would slow even the most doughty of warriors?
Threefists 02-10-08, 07:44 AM	:bump: anyone?
Eldritch_Lord 02-14-08, 07:52 PM	:bump: anyone? Did you take a look at mine? That might help idea-wise.